Building an archer in a mid-optimized campaign

[Lazarock]

Hello

I'm making a new character, first time in years making one without spells in 3.5.
Out of the 4 PC of our campaign, 2 of them are melee characters and I was wondering if it would be possible to make an archery build, for cover.

I'm bad at optimizing characters, always playing the same 4 class, but this time our DM said to us "this campaign will be deadly, you'll have to twist rules a bit".
I don't want to talk about this statement, I already said what I think of it to our DM.

Settings :
Tier 3 (2019's edition) of lower for class
Ability array : 8,10,12,12,14,18
5th level character
10k gold


I looked at an archery handbook, to see what I can do, and saw volley archetype.
From what I understand, doesn't it combo well with Soulbow PrC ?

I see it like a weirdo from Oriental country, fighting for his own good without materials shackles.
Starting from being a robber, he used his soul to steal from others & save youngs and frails (some kind of family secret, I guess).
Being spotted by some martial teacher, he learnt to use his body more efficiently.

After some time, he choose to leave his master to make his own way. Kind of Robin Hood, except it don't really give a **** about money, he just do what he thinks is right.

My build, so far :
Human
Soulknife 2/Fighter 2/Soulbow 1

Ability :
STR 10
CON 8
DEX 15 (14+1 at lvl 4)
INT 12
WIS 18
CHA 10


Feats :
Human - Point Blank
Level 1 - Practiced Mind blade
Soulknife 1 - Weapon focus (mind blade) ; Hidden talent (precognition, don't know which atm)
Level 3 - Zen archery
Fighter 1 - Rapid Shot
Fighter 2 - Two-weapon fighting
Soulbow 1 - Alertness


I'm planning to take Woodland Archer at level 6 but not sure if I could ?

Am I understanding it well ?

From what I read, Practiced Mind Blade give +4 levels of soulknife. If I don't have enough HD, you can apply the full bonus when you have enough HD, so it's stored.

So...
Does a level 1 Soulknife with Practiced Mind Blade unlocks its bonus at ECL 6 ?

It would do :

0 (0 from Soulknife 1)
+1 (1 from soulknife 2)
+2 (+1 from Fighter 1)
+4 (+1 from fighter 2 + +1 from mindblade)
+4 (+0 from Soulbow 1)
+6/+1 (+1 from Soulbow 2 + +1 from Practiced Mind Blade)


But I'm not sure it works like that ?

Do you have some insight, or perhaps better builds to share ?

[Particle_Man]

Do you specifically want an archer as in "character using a bow that fires arrows" or would any "damage at range" build do?

Because Warlock is a pretty simple "one and done" build, that lets you go "pew pew!" all day with ranged touch attacks, and by 6th level lets you fly.

[Lazarock]

Do you specifically want an archer as in "character using a bow that fires arrows" or would any "damage at range" build do?

Because Warlock is a pretty simple "one and done" build, that lets you go "pew pew!" all day with ranged touch attacks, and by 6th level lets you fly.

I'd like to play an archer, if I can make some magic, why not but I don't want to play another caster (even though I know they are basically more powerfull than other builds).

And, to be honest, I like the idea of playing a Tier 4/5 class in a campaign of Tier 3, but don't want to be too far behind.

[Anthrowhale]

I believe you need to be 5th level before you can take a level of Soulbow?

The Soulbow approach to archery is "ok". The disadvantages which come to mind:

You can't easily swap the arrow type to penetrate DR.
The medium BAB becomes increasingly telling as you reach higher levels. For example, you can reach the same damage/to-hit profile by swapping your Str and Wis stats and taking full-BAB classes.
You are locked into the class, since there's basically nothing else you can take which improves the mindbow.


Psionic archery is pretty potent when you can use Fell Shot (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#fellShot) with Manyshot.

The primary challenge with archery is reaching a sufficient level of delivered damage to be meaningful. 5th level is a particularly rough point here since monster hps have started to ramp up, but your second iterative has not come online.

Delivering damage requires that you, hit, penetrate DR, and then apply significant damage. Having many different arrows can deal with DR, so applying significant damage and hitting are the significant challenges. The baseline approach here is to maximize dexterity while using a composite longbow to pick up damage from incidental strength.

Edit: Adding a bit to the last post, maybe something like this:

Scout 3/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Ranger <n>

with feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
Ranger 1 Favored Enemy: Undead
Scout 4: Swift Hunter
6. Improved Skirmish
Ranger 2 Combat Style: Rapid Shot
9. ??
Ranger 5 Favored Enemy: Construct
Ranger 6 Improved Combat Style: Many Shot
12. Greater Many Shot

At level 5, you have 1d8+Str+2d6 skirmish, and you can shoot & scoot every round.
Level 6-8: 1d8+str+4d6 skirmish.
Level 9-10: 1d8+str+5d6 skirmish.
Level 11: Many shot with 2 arrows for 2d8+Str*2+5d6 Skirmish
Level 12: Greater Many shot with 3 arrows for 3d8+Str*3+15d6 Skirmish

In terms of magic items, you'll want a magic bow and anything that increases your accuracy or damage.

[Particle_Man]

The order of the bow initiate prestige class might be worth a look.

And this archer's handbook might be worth one too:

http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-archery-handbook-completed.html

[bean illus]

Ranger, Scout, Swift Hunter is the way to go. There are a few other options, but they start getting quite multiclass.

I like BAB on my archers, because 3 attacks at 6th level rocks.

Martial archers don't seem to do well above level 12 or so. If the build needs to be above that, then i like a combat cleric with ordained champion so you eventually get divine power for full BAB. Lesser restoration is also a lifesaver for archers.

Here's a core fighter template for comparison. Your archer should exceed this, or just go fighter.

Human, Open feat / Ancestral relic

F 1 WF, PBS
F 2 PS
F 3 RS

F 4 WSp
F 5
F 6 MS, IRS

F 7
F 8 RWM piercing
F 9 Wild Cohort

F 10 GWF
F 11
F 12 Weapon Supremacy, IPS

*you get a magic weapon at 1st level, and a cohort mount at 9th, and Improved precise shot at 12th.

If you have enough sources you can make an auto-crit machine gun with lasers, but that's a whole book.

[bean illus]

Ranger scout swift hunter is just super easy. Favored enemy, skirmish damage, AC bonuses, and even some spells. It good, and easy to say yes. There might even be a little room for dipping other classes.
The build doesn't have much spell access. I only know of a few other options.

Three great weaknesses in archery are Str drain, low BAB, and windwall. NEVER FORGET, if you lose a point of strength, you lose access to your compound bow. An archer needs immediate access to lesser restoration, and something to do in combat when there's windwall. I suggest combat cleric archers that cast lesser restoration for themselves, and at cleric 7 return to full BAB with divine power.
Archery is feat expensive, and if you're not firing 3 shots by 6th level then you're late, and waiting til 9th. I finf six levels of full BAB followed by rapid advancement into cleric or ordained champion is tempting.

Human, Open feat / Ancestral relic
OR - Woodland Elf

Barbarian, boar totem, whirling frenzy
F 1 WF, PBS
F 2 PS, RS

F 3
Warblade, blood in the water
F 4 MS, IRS

CC War, X1, X2
OCh GMS, Woodland Archer
9 OCh 2 diehard for WSp, RWM

It starts straight full BAB archer. At level 3 you're firing 3 arrows, and 4 arrows at 6th.

At 9th level you're firing both IRS and GMS at BAB +8, with all the bells and whistles. You hit almost everything you point at, 4 arrows per round. Your Ancestral Relic weapon is about to gain a splitting enchantment. You're a crit factory due to high iterative attacks, blood in the water, and some spell support.

Either finish ordained champion, or go straight cleric caster level. If ordained champion you get channel spell through a melee weapon when the opponent closes, and 'free' quicken spell on your war domain list. Either way, greater magic weapon is also on your spell list.

You can prestige class in any cleric levels you wish. You'll return to full BAB at level 13-14, and will have 6th-7th level spells at level 20.

*Run that by your DM. If he thinks that's OP then he doesn't want to hear about the Targeteer/Warblade.

[Soranar]

Personally I like ranger /master of many forms

you can add education + knowledge devotion

point blank shot + rapid shot

alertness (feat tax for master of many forms)

eventually zen archery

and then you can transform into a large form (giant with decent STR or a troll) and use a big bow

[Saintheart]

Delivering damage requires that you, hit, penetrate DR, and then apply significant damage. Having many different arrows can deal with DR ...

Just a footnote here that Sense Weakness from the Draconomicon would apply to Soulbow, since Soulbow indicates clearly that Mind Arrow can have weapon-specific feats like Weapon Focus apply to it. Accordingly, with Sense Weakness, you wipe 5 DR from any opponent on a ranged attack, doesn't matter what kind of DR it has. It's feat intensive - WF and Combat Expertise - but it might be worth considering for volley archery.

[Lazarock]

The order of the bow initiate prestige class might be worth a look.

And this archer's handbook might be worth one too:

http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2018/01/the-archery-handbook-completed.html

This is the one I looked :smallsmile:
I saw, regarding the Soulbow PrC : " This prestige class offers everything an archer could want." and wanted to do something with it (also, to be honest, I find it cool to throw arrows from hands, like Dragon Ball's Kikohas)

I also looked at a PrC Tier list, listing Order of the Bow Initiate pretty low, and the handbook seems to share the same point of view :
"Judgement: Either leave at level 2 or level 6", level 2 is when we can attack in melee without provoking AoO :smalleek:

Am I missing something ? Perhaps the full BAB ?


I believe you need to be 5th level before you can take a level of Soulbow?
You're right, I don't have prerequesite before (need 8 ranks in autohypnosis)


The Soulbow approach to archery is "ok". The disadvantages which come to mind:

You can't easily swap the arrow type to penetrate DR.
The medium BAB becomes increasingly telling as you reach higher levels. For example, you can reach the same damage/to-hit profile by swapping your Str and Wis stats and taking full-BAB classes.
You are locked into the class, since there's basically nothing else you can take which improves the mindbow.


Soulbow can change the kind of arrow they throw virtually everyday, do passing DR is not *that* problematic : from 1st level, arrow are considered as magical for overcoming DR, and starting level 2 (ou Soulbow) you can make fire arrow, ice arrow etc...


Psionic archery is pretty potent when you can use Fell Shot (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#fellShot) with Manyshot.
Isn't it a bit too feat hungry ? Fell Shot need 2 feats and succeeding a concentration check (it is needed to make a psionic focus to use the feat)


The primary challenge with archery is reaching a sufficient level of delivered damage to be meaningful. 5th level is a particularly rough point here since monster hps have started to ramp up, but your second iterative has not come online.

Delivering damage requires that you, hit, penetrate DR, and then apply significant damage. Having many different arrows can deal with DR, so applying significant damage and hitting are the significant challenges. The baseline approach here is to maximize dexterity while using a composite longbow to pick up damage from incidental strength.
OK ! I'll look a bit more into this, I did'nt compare damage output between different builds, my bad


Edit: Adding a bit to the last post, maybe something like this:

Scout 3/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Ranger <n>

with feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
Ranger 1 Favored Enemy: Undead
Scout 4: Swift Hunter
6. Improved Skirmish
Ranger 2 Combat Style: Rapid Shot
9. ??
Ranger 5 Favored Enemy: Construct
Ranger 6 Improved Combat Style: Many Shot
12. Greater Many Shot

At level 5, you have 1d8+Str+2d6 skirmish, and you can shoot & scoot every round.
Level 6-8: 1d8+str+4d6 skirmish.
Level 9-10: 1d8+str+5d6 skirmish.
Level 11: Many shot with 2 arrows for 2d8+Str*2+5d6 Skirmish
Level 12: Greater Many shot with 3 arrows for 3d8+Str*3+15d6 Skirmish

In terms of magic items, you'll want a magic bow and anything that increases your accuracy or damage.

Wow, thank you ! I'll look at your suggestion with more attention, hopefully I won't take two more days to think about it :smallbiggrin:

[Lazarock]

Ranger scout swift hunter is just super easy. Favored enemy, skirmish damage, AC bonuses, and even some spells. It good, and easy to say yes. There might even be a little room for dipping other classes.
The build doesn't have much spell access. I only know of a few other options.

Three great weaknesses in archery are Str drain, low BAB, and windwall. NEVER FORGET, if you lose a point of strength, you lose access to your compound bow. An archer needs immediate access to lesser restoration, and something to do in combat when there's windwall. I suggest combat cleric archers that cast lesser restoration for themselves, and at cleric 7 return to full BAB with divine power.
Archery is feat expensive, and if you're not firing 3 shots by 6th level then you're late, and waiting til 9th. I finf six levels of full BAB followed by rapid advancement into cleric or ordained champion is tempting.

Human, Open feat / Ancestral relic
OR - Woodland Elf

Barbarian, boar totem, whirling frenzy
F 1 WF, PBS
F 2 PS, RS

F 3
Warblade, blood in the water
F 4 MS, IRS

CC War, X1, X2
OCh GMS, Woodland Archer
9 OCh 2 diehard for WSp, RWM

It starts straight full BAB archer. At level 3 you're firing 3 arrows, and 4 arrows at 6th.

At 9th level you're firing both IRS and GMS at BAB +8, with all the bells and whistles. You hit almost everything you point at, 4 arrows per round. Your Ancestral Relic weapon is about to gain a splitting enchantment. You're a crit factory due to high iterative attacks, blood in the water, and some spell support.

Either finish ordained champion, or go straight cleric caster level. If ordained champion you get channel spell through a melee weapon when the opponent closes, and 'free' quicken spell on your war domain list. Either way, greater magic weapon is also on your spell list.

You can prestige class in any cleric levels you wish. You'll return to full BAB at level 13-14, and will have 6th-7th level spells at level 20.

*Run that by your DM. If he thinks that's OP then he doesn't want to hear about the Targeteer/Warblade.
Thank you, didn't saw your answer, I'll take this and look at it with your first suggestion :smallredface:

edit : cleric is a no-go, even if ACF
Still limited by tier classification

[Saintheart]

I also looked at a PrC Tier list, listing Order of the Bow Initiate pretty low, and the handbook seems to share the same point of view :
"Judgement: Either leave at level 2 or level 6", level 2 is when we can attack in melee without provoking AoO :smalleek:

Am I missing something ? Perhaps the full BAB ?

No, you're not. All due respect to Particle_Man, but OotBI in my respectful view is a total bum steer for anyone trying to build an archer to do serious damage. And the reason for that comes down to one miserable little phrase under the "Ranged Precision (Ex)" ability: the fact you only get the bonus d8s of damage if you make one attack as a standard action.

This means those bonus d8s are never available on a full attack, and probably not even on an attack of opportunity. Even a ranged rogue does better than this if he can flat-foot the opponent, sneak attack might not be multiplied on a critical hit but it's sure as heck available more than once per round. It is utterly incompatible with anyone who wants to do damage as a volley archer unless you're making very awkward use of a Belt of Battle, and even then, it's not worth it. Good grief, even a Scout with some source of swift action movement can outdamage the OotBI since skirmish damage applies to all of his attacks in a round when he moves 10 feet, it's not locked down to a standard action.

Worse still, although it doesn't need flatfooting or DEX denial to trigger, Ranged Precision is explicitly treated in all other ways as sneak attack ... which means anything that's immune to precision damage or sneak attack is also immune to Ranged Precision.

The rest of the class really doesn't provide anything that you couldn't get even off a regular old Fighter chassis. Close Combat Shot is basically "If you're stupid enough to get caught doing something that archers aren't meant to be doing, we'll let you suck slightly less." And it's usually alleviated by a 5 foot step anyway. The rest of it is quite literally a Fighter, except without bonus feats you can actually pick for yourself.

[pabelfly]

No, you're not. All due respect to Particle_Man, but OotBI in my respectful view is a total bum steer for anyone trying to build an archer to do serious damage. And the reason for that comes down to one miserable little phrase under the "Ranged Precision (Ex)" ability: the fact you only get the bonus d8s of damage if you make one attack as a standard action.

This means those bonus d8s are never available on a full attack, and probably not even on an attack of opportunity. Even a ranged rogue does better than this if he can flat-foot the opponent, sneak attack might not be multiplied on a critical hit but it's sure as heck available more than once per round. It is utterly incompatible with anyone who wants to do damage as a volley archer unless you're making very awkward use of a Belt of Battle, and even then, it's not worth it. Good grief, even a Scout with some source of swift action movement can outdamage the OotBI since skirmish damage applies to all of his attacks in a round when he moves 10 feet, it's not locked down to a standard action.

Worse still, although it doesn't need flatfooting or DEX denial to trigger, Ranged Precision is explicitly treated in all other ways as sneak attack ... which means anything that's immune to precision damage or sneak attack is also immune to Ranged Precision.

The rest of the class really doesn't provide anything that you couldn't get even off a regular old Fighter chassis. Close Combat Shot is basically "If you're stupid enough to get caught doing something that archers aren't meant to be doing, we'll let you suck slightly less." And it's usually alleviated by a 5 foot step anyway. The rest of it is quite literally a Fighter, except without bonus feats you can actually pick for yourself.

I'm not seeing it either. At level 14, you end up doing a single attack at 5d8 damage on a standard action, which isn't a huge contribution when monsters at CR 14 have at least a hundred HP, if not more. The class also reads that you can only use this ability on a single attack each turn and can't use any other attacks with it, so you can't even make use of Rapid Shot, which you took to enter the class. I think you can do a lot better with ten class levels than this.

[Anthrowhale]

Soulbow can change the kind of arrow they throw virtually everyday, do passing DR is not *that* problematic : from 1st level, arrow are considered as magical for overcoming DR, and starting level 2 (ou Soulbow) you can make fire arrow, ice arrow etc...

How do you deal with DR/{Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine}? Archery is very DR-sensitive because the damage per arrow tends to be low compared to melee attacks.


Isn't it a bit too feat hungry ? Fell Shot need 2 feats and succeeding a concentration check (it is needed to make a psionic focus to use the feat)

It's worse than that, since you also need Psionic Meditation. To go Fell Shot (which is _great_ since it eliminates hitting as a concern), you'll probably want to open with Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2. After that, the natural choice is something like Rogue which allows you to pile on damage.

Maybe:

Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 4/Rogue <n>

With feats:
1. Craven
Fighter 1: Point Blank Shot
PW 1: Psychic Shot
3. Psionic Meditation
PW 2: Fell Shot
Fighter 2: Rapid Shot
6. ??
Fighter 4; Manyshot

Convince one of your melee specialist to invest in tumble (which can be traded for ride on any class). Tumble is fun, and if they tumble around to a flanking position, your sneak attack applies. Note that sneak attack damage only applies to the first arrow (boo), but Craven adds quite a bit. At higher levels, you pick up Hank's Energy Bow (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112032517/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a ) and use power shot to amplify damage further. Also, be sure to pick up the LIghtbringer Rogue 3 ACF which allows you to sneak attack the otherwise-immune.

[pabelfly]

How do you deal with DR/{Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine}? Archery is very DR-sensitive because the damage per arrow tends to be low compared to melee attacks.

Sense Weakness Feat let's you disregard 5 DR. It requires two fears but Weapon Focus isn't a bad feat for a volley build. I think at level 6 it should be easy enough to get enough damage that you don't have to worry about 5 DR though.

[bean illus]

Human, Open feat / Ancestral relic
OR - Woodland Elf

Barbarian, boar totem, whirling frenzy
F 1 WF, PBS
F 2 PS, RS

F 3
Warblade, blood in the water
F 4 MS, IRS

CC War, X1, X2
OCh GMS, Woodland Archer
9 OCh 2 diehard for WSp, RWM

It starts straight full BAB archer. At level 3 you're firing 3 arrows, and 4 arrows at 6th.

At 9th level you're firing both IRS and GMS at BAB +8, with all the bells and whistles. You hit almost everything you point at, 4 arrows per round. Your Ancestral Relic weapon is about to gain a splitting enchantment. You're a crit factory due to high iterative attacks, blood in the water, and some spell support.


*Run that by your DM. If he thinks that's OP then he doesn't want to hear about the Targeteer/Warblade.


Thank you

edit : cleric is a no-go, even if ACF
Still limited by tier classification

If that's the only thing you don't like then it can be fixed. ... Did you notice that you fire 4 shots at 6th level?

The easiest fix is 2 levels of martial monk or feat rogue. Pick the feats you want, and done.

How's your DM on prestige classes? Ok, dig this.

Pick up knowledge religion and some divine spells. There are a few ways: divine bard? healer, maybe paladin. Let's say healer.

* Take 1 level of healer at 7th level. Then take 2 levels of martial rogue and pick up the feats (any 3 of GMS, Woodland Archer, WSp, RWM). Dump all the skill points in knowledge religion.

Now enter contemplative at 11th level. Pick up war domain (hey! war deities need healers!).

Now you get lesser restoration at 11th, and divine power at 15th. Well done.

** Another idea is to take this base six, and stack swift hunter on top.

[bean illus]

Human, Open feat / Ancestral relic
OR - Woodland Elf

1 Ranger 1 Arcane hunter, PBS
2 Ranger 2 RS
3 Barbarian, whirling frenzy, PS

4 F 1 WF,
5 Warblade, blood in the water
6 F 2 MS, IRS

7 F 3
8 F 4 WSp, RWM
9 Martial Rogue Woodland Archer or GMS

10 Scout
11 Scout
12 Scout 3 Swift Hunter

There's 12 levels. 8 levels to do anything you want, max swift hunter level 13 (+4d6, +3 AC), rangers casting 10?
or ...

13 Scout 4 Far shot
14 Deepwood Sniper Keen arrows 2x threat range
15 DWS 2 Imp Crit +1 multiplier

... maybe

13 Ranger 3
14 Ranger 4
15 Scout 4 combat expertise, Sense Weakness

*** If you want spells ... Dwarf domain would grant greater magic weapon + 3.

It's also available through Duskblade, which is counter intuitive, but would also substantially beef your melee.

*** Woodland elf net's Seeker of the Misty Isle 1, which grants travel domain (wanna fly? teleport?)

(either at level 7 or 9)
Healer 1
Healer 2
Contemplative 1 War domain
Seeker of the Misty Isle Travel domain

Similar thought can continue to prestige class into Divine Oracle and Divine Disciple, for bonus domains, and tasty class features.

Yeah, i know, i keep planning for archers above 10th level to need spells.

[Gorthawar]

Bean got some nice builds there and I can also attest to the Swift Hunter in my campaign doing a lot of damage when within 30feet of anything (at level 9 he's doing 4d6 skirmish damage with improved skirmish and regularly rolls +4/+5 on his knowledge devotion coupled with 4 attacks).

Here is another simple option:
Ranger4 (Champion of the Wild)/Fighter1(Hit and Run)/Pious Templar of Ehlonna4

The Ranger levels give you Track, Rapid Shot, Endurance and PBS
Fighter for WF:Longbow
Normal Feats (1,3,6,9): True Believer, Knowledge Devotion, Precise Shot, Woodland Archer
Pious Templar for Weapon Specialision at Lvl 8 and Ranged Weapon Mastery at 9.

Pious templar gets you some paladin spells including lesser restoration as a lvl 1 spell from lvl 6 onwards. If you take the battle blessing feat you could even cast it as a swift action. Also the true believer feat sets you up nicely for the raptor arrow requirements if you should be so lucky to acquire one or more.
Knowledge devotion together with the relevant skill trick should get you a +2 to hit/damage fairly often without too much skills spend on it and additionally gives knowledge religion as class skill allowing easy qualification for pious templar.

[RNightstalker]

F 12 Weapon Supremacy, IPS


Doesn't Weapon Supremacy require Fighter 18?

[Zarvistic]

I would take a look at peerless archer. The 3rd level ability is really good.

You think anthro bat would be allowed as a race for you? If so, it would be a great choice together with zen archery, knowledge devotion and the updated kami's intuition.

If you're taking some fighter levels, the targetteer variant can give you an extra attack with the arrow swarm feature.

[bean illus]

Doesn't Weapon Supremacy require Fighter 18?

Lol. Yes. Apparently I've been wrong forever.
I don't actually use it in builds, and usually am using the last 3 feats on magic.


I would take a look at peerless archer. The 3rd level ability is really good.

You think anthro bat would be allowed as a race for you? If so, it would be a great choice together with zen archery, knowledge devotion and the updated kami's intuition.

If you're taking some fighter levels, the targetteer variant can give you an extra attack with the arrow swarm feature.

I pass on peerless archer. The reqs cost and 3 levels are too much, and you probably pass deepwood sniper to get it.

Raptoran might be more accessible than anthropomorphic bat.

Targeteer is great, partly because of the exotic weapons. Greatbow, bowstaff, and footbow, or bolas for the trip. It does cost 2 feats to use well, and rearranges the build.

I like both IRS and GMS on an archer. Shooting something dead then switching targets is nice. Then it's all about enough shots at high enough BAB to crit often. Splitting 7-10 shots per round scores a crit on most rounds.

[RNightstalker]

If you're taking some fighter levels, the targetteer variant can give you an extra attack with the arrow swarm feature.

Where's the targeteer variant?

[pabelfly]

Where's the targeteer variant?

Dragon Magazine #310. That issue has some fun Fighter variants.

[bean illus]

One of the most powerful things for any archer has to be early access to ranger spells. This again points directly toward chameleon, who gets them faster than ranger does.
First, either GMS or IRS (preferably both) then straight to chameleon. Something like this?

Human able learner

1 Ranger 1 solitary hunting, arcane hunter, PBS
2 Ranger 2 RS
3 Barbarian, whirling frenzy, PS

4 F 1 WF
5 Warblade, blood in the water
6 F 2 MS, GMS

7 Cham
8 Cham 2 Ancestral relic
9 Ranger Wild Champion 4 IRS, Imp favored enemy

The idea here is that a wand of hunter's mercy allows a crit whenever you have surprise, which is a fair amount since you're a fairly high dex sneak.

Also, there's an argument that ancestral relic brings the magic weapon, but you still have it if you switch feats. You'd only need the feat whenever you wanted to upgrade the weapon.

[Seward]

Hello

I'm making a new character, first time in years making one without spells in 3.5.
Out of the 4 PC of our campaign, 2 of them are melee characters and I was wondering if it would be possible to make an archery build, for cover.

I'm bad at optimizing characters, always playing the same 4 class, but this time our DM said to us "this campaign will be deadly, you'll have to twist rules a bit".
I don't want to talk about this statement, I already said what I think of it to our DM.

Settings :
Tier 3 (2019's edition) of lower for class
Ability array : 8,10,12,12,14,18
5th level character
10k gold



Ok, well, whatever you choose, make sure it puts up better numbers than your basic core fighter archer.

Wood Elf str 16 dx 20 con 10 int 10 wis 10 cha 8. Statbumps to dex. With amulet, hp=37 fort=7 reflex 6 will 1
Gear: +1 elvencraft composite longbow str+3 (3k), amulet of health (4k), mithril chain shirt 1.1k quiver of Ehlonna (1.8k), chain shirt, special material (blunt, cold iron, silver, slashing) arrows. Eventually get some backup bows, cloak resistance, admantine arows etc as cash comes in. If elvencraft bow isn't allowed, carry a 2h spear or something in a quiver of ehlonna for a backup melee weapon. Also put spikes on your armor or have a spiked gauntlet.

Ranger 1 (it is favored class, grab spot as class skill, max spot x class with fighter levels. Other favored enemy and other skill points to taste, although uncrittable things like undead or dr- things like elementals are often good choices. Ranger also gives you wand access to all the good ranger spells, but at level 5 the most important is likely a wand of clw for out of combat healing)
Fighter 4 (because weapon spec and bonuse feats.

Feats: Tracking (B), L1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (F1B), Rapid Shot(F2B), Weapon Focus(L3) Weapon spec (F4B)

Your bow attacks at +12 or 10/10 d8+7 and you can penetrate most DR you are likely to encounter (Silver at -1 damage).

Advancing this with core only you go just more fighter levels. Noncore is a bit better because of two feats, which will be in italics.

L6 quickdraw (to allow your full attack even when bow isn't drawn, also lets you quickdraw wands, full attack with splash weapons etc which has some occasional use)
L7 woodland archer
L9 improved crit, ranged weapon mastery (piercing)
L11 improved precise shot
L12 greater weapon focus
L13 greater weapon spec.

This build puts up good numbers, what people will expect of an archer in a reasonably challenging capaign. Try not to fall far behind its to-hit and damage metrics. The spot skill maxed is one of those things they will expect.

A true core only archer would likely have far shot at 7 and iron will at 9, but would otherwise be built the same way.

Gear selection for core only isn't all that different from full access to everything. Keep up with your con item, dex item, resistance cloak. Make sure your bow can penetrate dr/evil by level 10ish. Get boots of haste as early as possible, likely in the 9-10 level range. Get your adamantine arrows pretty quick. Don't bother doing much to enchant your armor, you will need to swap to celestial armor at some point a your dex rises (or just get mage armor from a party member - spend on pearl1s to make it easier if they are a prep caster). Likewise a masterwork buckler is a good idea now, but as you approach L10 you'll likely prefer an animated shield, as it will work when you are shooting. When comparing numbers for higher levels assume +2 dex item by level 8ish, +4 by level 12ish. Con item might bump to +4 a bit earlier. +1 cloak resistance by 6, +2 by 9, +3 by 12. Around 12 ioun stones for various things (wisdom, ac+1) also start to turn up, and by 13 it might be affordable to get a belt+4 and upgrade your bow to a +5strength bonus weapon, using your old bow as a backup for if you are fatigued or strength drained or similar. It is not uncommon for the first bow to be merciful, and the second to be focused more on enemies that are immune to nonlethal.

[justiceforall]

I'm having a lot of fun with Soulbow at the moment, my build is Incarnate 2/Soulknife 3 (extra feats ACF)/Soulbow X. Maxxed out wisdom with zen archer, sighting gloves/lucky dice and mindsight from binding Shedu Crown. Mindsight is super awesome and keeps you relevant in basically every situation. I'll eventually take Combat Expertise/Sense Weakness for DR. Then you can also mix in Pious Templar to get spells and access to Weapon Specialisation/Ranged Weapon Mastery.

Another simple Soulbow build I was interested to try was Soulknife 2/Paladin 3/Soulbow 1/Paladin X with Serenity. You could still be a caster without tripping your restriction. Wisdom to basically everything.

[Lazarock]

Hi !
It's been a while, I'm sorry there was some major changes in the campaign :
Our newbie chose to play an archer/ranger and I don't want to compete with him and make him feel """behind""" (after all, there is some experts giving me advices :elan: ), so we'll be lacking a caster/skillmonkey.

I'm now looking for a debuff-based build, see the other thread !


I'm having a lot of fun with Soulbow at the moment, my build is Incarnate 2/Soulknife 3 (extra feats ACF)/Soulbow X. Maxxed out wisdom with zen archer, sighting gloves/lucky dice and mindsight from binding Shedu Crown. Mindsight is super awesome and keeps you relevant in basically every situation. I'll eventually take Combat Expertise/Sense Weakness for DR. Then you can also mix in Pious Templar to get spells and access to Weapon Specialisation/Ranged Weapon Mastery.

Another simple Soulbow build I was interested to try was Soulknife 2/Paladin 3/Soulbow 1/Paladin X with Serenity. You could still be a caster without tripping your restriction. Wisdom to basically everything.
Soulknife, even if underpowered, looked so fun to me !
Too bad, our newbie will be taking a ranger, so I chose to take another path. It took me several days to make my mind but this is it : I'll keep advices from here to another campaign, nothing's wasted !

Ok, well, whatever you choose, make sure it puts up better numbers than your basic core fighter archer.

Wood Elf str 16 dx 20 con 10 int 10 wis 10 cha 8. Statbumps to dex. With amulet, hp=37 fort=7 reflex 6 will 1
Gear: +1 elvencraft composite longbow str+3 (3k), amulet of health (4k), mithril chain shirt 1.1k quiver of Ehlonna (1.8k), chain shirt, special material (blunt, cold iron, silver, slashing) arrows. Eventually get some backup bows, cloak resistance, admantine arows etc as cash comes in. If elvencraft bow isn't allowed, carry a 2h spear or something in a quiver of ehlonna for a backup melee weapon. Also put spikes on your armor or have a spiked gauntlet.

Ranger 1 (it is favored class, grab spot as class skill, max spot x class with fighter levels. Other favored enemy and other skill points to taste, although uncrittable things like undead or dr- things like elementals are often good choices. Ranger also gives you wand access to all the good ranger spells, but at level 5 the most important is likely a wand of clw for out of combat healing)
Fighter 4 (because weapon spec and bonuse feats.

Feats: Tracking (B), L1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (F1B), Rapid Shot(F2B), Weapon Focus(L3) Weapon spec (F4B)

Your bow attacks at +12 or 10/10 d8+7 and you can penetrate most DR you are likely to encounter (Silver at -1 damage).

Advancing this with core only you go just more fighter levels. Noncore is a bit better because of two feats, which will be in italics.

L6 quickdraw (to allow your full attack even when bow isn't drawn, also lets you quickdraw wands, full attack with splash weapons etc which has some occasional use)
L7 woodland archer
L9 improved crit, ranged weapon mastery (piercing)
L11 improved precise shot
L12 greater weapon focus
L13 greater weapon spec.

This build puts up good numbers, what people will expect of an archer in a reasonably challenging capaign. Try not to fall far behind its to-hit and damage metrics. The spot skill maxed is one of those things they will expect.

A true core only archer would likely have far shot at 7 and iron will at 9, but would otherwise be built the same way.

Gear selection for core only isn't all that different from full access to everything. Keep up with your con item, dex item, resistance cloak. Make sure your bow can penetrate dr/evil by level 10ish. Get boots of haste as early as possible, likely in the 9-10 level range. Get your adamantine arrows pretty quick. Don't bother doing much to enchant your armor, you will need to swap to celestial armor at some point a your dex rises (or just get mage armor from a party member - spend on pearl1s to make it easier if they are a prep caster). Likewise a masterwork buckler is a good idea now, but as you approach L10 you'll likely prefer an animated shield, as it will work when you are shooting. When comparing numbers for higher levels assume +2 dex item by level 8ish, +4 by level 12ish. Con item might bump to +4 a bit earlier. +1 cloak resistance by 6, +2 by 9, +3 by 12. Around 12 ioun stones for various things (wisdom, ac+1) also start to turn up, and by 13 it might be affordable to get a belt+4 and upgrade your bow to a +5strength bonus weapon, using your old bow as a backup for if you are fatigued or strength drained or similar. It is not uncommon for the first bow to be merciful, and the second to be focused more on enemies that are immune to nonlethal.
Thank you so much !
There was some changes in my character concept (see above), but I'll keep your build order with great care :smallbiggrin:


One of the most powerful things for any archer has to be early access to ranger spells. This again points directly toward chameleon, who gets them faster than ranger does.
First, either GMS or IRS (preferably both) then straight to chameleon. Something like this?

Human able learner

1 Ranger 1 solitary hunting, arcane hunter, PBS
2 Ranger 2 RS
3 Barbarian, whirling frenzy, PS

4 F 1 WF
5 Warblade, blood in the water
6 F 2 MS, GMS

7 Cham
8 Cham 2 Ancestral relic
9 Ranger Wild Champion 4 IRS, Imp favored enemy

The idea here is that a wand of hunter's mercy allows a crit whenever you have surprise, which is a fair amount since you're a fairly high dex sneak.

Also, there's an argument that ancestral relic brings the magic weapon, but you still have it if you switch feats. You'd only need the feat whenever you wanted to upgrade the weapon.
Yeah, I saw the whole chameleon concept while making researches. Get me some ideas for other build !

But, what does "GMS" and "IRS" mean ? I'm not totally awake, I may be missing something


Bean got some nice builds there and I can also attest to the Swift Hunter in my campaign doing a lot of damage when within 30feet of anything (at level 9 he's doing 4d6 skirmish damage with improved skirmish and regularly rolls +4/+5 on his knowledge devotion coupled with 4 attacks).

Here is another simple option:
Ranger4 (Champion of the Wild)/Fighter1(Hit and Run)/Pious Templar of Ehlonna4

The Ranger levels give you Track, Rapid Shot, Endurance and PBS
Fighter for WF:Longbow
Normal Feats (1,3,6,9): True Believer, Knowledge Devotion, Precise Shot, Woodland Archer
Pious Templar for Weapon Specialision at Lvl 8 and Ranged Weapon Mastery at 9.

Pious templar gets you some paladin spells including lesser restoration as a lvl 1 spell from lvl 6 onwards. If you take the battle blessing feat you could even cast it as a swift action. Also the true believer feat sets you up nicely for the raptor arrow requirements if you should be so lucky to acquire one or more.
Knowledge devotion together with the relevant skill trick should get you a +2 to hit/damage fairly often without too much skills spend on it and additionally gives knowledge religion as class skill allowing easy qualification for pious templar.
There is so much classes omg ahahah
I'll look at Pious Templar, never saw it in game.


Human, Open feat / Ancestral relic
OR - Woodland Elf

1 Ranger 1 Arcane hunter, PBS
2 Ranger 2 RS
3 Barbarian, whirling frenzy, PS

4 F 1 WF,
5 Warblade, blood in the water
6 F 2 MS, IRS

7 F 3
8 F 4 WSp, RWM
9 Martial Rogue Woodland Archer or GMS

10 Scout
11 Scout
12 Scout 3 Swift Hunter

There's 12 levels. 8 levels to do anything you want, max swift hunter level 13 (+4d6, +3 AC), rangers casting 10?
or ...

13 Scout 4 Far shot
14 Deepwood Sniper Keen arrows 2x threat range
15 DWS 2 Imp Crit +1 multiplier

... maybe

13 Ranger 3
14 Ranger 4
15 Scout 4 combat expertise, Sense Weakness

*** If you want spells ... Dwarf domain would grant greater magic weapon + 3.

It's also available through Duskblade, which is counter intuitive, but would also substantially beef your melee.

*** Woodland elf net's Seeker of the Misty Isle 1, which grants travel domain (wanna fly? teleport?)

(either at level 7 or 9)
Healer 1
Healer 2
Contemplative 1 War domain
Seeker of the Misty Isle Travel domain

Similar thought can continue to prestige class into Divine Oracle and Divine Disciple, for bonus domains, and tasty class features.

Yeah, i know, i keep planning for archers above 10th level to need spells.
You're a life savior !
Thank you for all these details, that is so great. I think I'll share them with our new player, it will surely help him in his build !


If that's the only thing you don't like then it can be fixed. ... Did you notice that you fire 4 shots at 6th level?

The easiest fix is 2 levels of martial monk or feat rogue. Pick the feats you want, and done.

How's your DM on prestige classes? Ok, dig this.

Pick up knowledge religion and some divine spells. There are a few ways: divine bard? healer, maybe paladin. Let's say healer.

* Take 1 level of healer at 7th level. Then take 2 levels of martial rogue and pick up the feats (any 3 of GMS, Woodland Archer, WSp, RWM). Dump all the skill points in knowledge religion.

Now enter contemplative at 11th level. Pick up war domain (hey! war deities need healers!).

Now you get lesser restoration at 11th, and divine power at 15th. Well done.

** Another idea is to take this base six, and stack swift hunter on top.
It's not that I don't like, it's that it is not allowed :(

DM is OK with prestige classes, I'm alway planning PrC and every DM I have know it.
Nice concept, though, I'll dig in as a cool healing/turret :cool: