How to cast a spell that no longer exists?

[Beni-Kujaku]

You see, there is this 3.0 book, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. In it, a new domain is described, the Force domain, exclusive to Tharizdun, the god of madness. There is one interesting spell in that domain that was never reprinted anywhere afaik: Annihilation. For 1rd/level, this Evocation (force) spell creates a Sphere of Annihilation and you can control it as if you had a Talisman of the Sphere. Very nice spell, cool domain, no problem. Except that in SpC, that domain was updated to have Bigby's Crushing Hand as a 9th level spell instead. Annihilation then become a spell that exists, but is in no domain and no class list. Is there a way to cast it?

If it was level 7 or less, a Wish could replicate it, or even an Anyspell. If it was on an obscure class list, Recaster or Wyrm Wizard could add it to your list. If it was on a domain list that you couldn't access, maybe a Domain Draught would do the trick. I'm not even sure an artificer could create a scroll of Annihilation, since there's no "minimum caster level" for the spell since there's no class that can cast it. Is there a way to cast Annihilation that the Playground knows of? Only once would suffice, since afterwards it can be put into a scroll, copied into an archivist's prayerbook and shared with the world (another problem with artificer, the created scroll would be neither arcane nor divine, and couldn't be copied by an archivist).

Edit: I know of Zaq's "Thack o'Grugnord" who used a Shaper of Forms's Like Begets Like to argue that a spellbook with a 2e spell was "similar" to a spellbook with another 2e spell, and that you could argue that a spellbook with a 9th level spell is "similar" to a spellbook with another 9th level spell. I don't think it works that way, since it would mean you could basically get any number of spells with Like Begets Like, which is kinda broken.

[ViperMagnum357]

Well, it is listed as a domain spell and therefore defaults to divine: in theory, an Archivist should be able to cast it by RAW, if they could get it in their prayerbook. I think you could use the magic item clause of a wish spell to create a scroll of annihilation, then scribe it into your prayerbook: a Wish is worth 5,000 XP + 153 XP, which is the default cost for a divine scroll of 9th level. I think that works by RAW, maybe someone else has some thoughts.

[Metastachydium]

A Warlock with Imbue Item can make scrolls of it. Imbue Item's DC works off of spell level and the ability doesn't care about type (i.e. arcane or divine).

[Gusmo]

Rereading the original post, you've already thought of all the same things that came to my mind. I don't have a solution, but I just want to say you've presented a cool puzzle.

[loky1109]

Midgard dwarf can create scroll with such spell.

[ciopo]

First though was the epic spell knowledge, but alas it's arcane and there is no divine counterpart.

And someone is bound to argue that it won't allow you to take stuff outside of your class list, but that arcane limitation cinchs it for me :(

[ShurikVch]

Actually, it's the classical example of "General vs Specific": Force domain in Spell Compendium is "general"; Force domain in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is "specific" - to Tharizdun

For example: Hunger domain in "The Ebon Maw: Beware the Waking Hunger" article was published earlier than Libris Mortis. But does it mean Turaglas now grants a bunch of Ghoul-related spells? No, of course not!

[pabelfly]

So it sounds to me like if you specifically worship Tharizdun as a Cleric with the Force domain you get Annihilation as your bonus spell instead of Bigby's Crushing Hand.

Anyway, might have a dig through the "Ways to Expand A Spell List" to see if anything might work in a more unarguable fashion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're epic and have a 10th level slot, or you're a 17th+ level spontaneous caster (which clerics are) and have Improved Heighten Spell and the Versatile Spellcaster feat and can cast 10th level spells that way, you could take Extra Spell for it.

[pabelfly]

Boccob's Reading Room, Complete Mage. "A Spellcaster who prepares spells can write one new spell of any level he can cast into his spellbook." Sounds like if your DM was willing to play ball with you, you could add your spell this way as soon as 17th level.

[Crake]

Just... ask your DM to add it to a list somewhere?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Actually, it's the classical example of "General vs Specific": Force domain in Spell Compendium is "general"; Force domain in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is "specific" - to Tharizdun

For example: Hunger domain in "The Ebon Maw: Beware the Waking Hunger" article was published earlier than Libris Mortis. But does it mean Turaglas now grants a bunch of Ghoul-related spells? No, of course not!

I don't know, the two domains are basically identical except for two spells, and their given power is also the same. It really feels like an update to 3.5 of a 3.0 resource. In TotEE, they didn't write "clerics of Tharizdun have a Force domain specific to them", it's just that that's where the Force domain was first defined. It's not like SpC defined other deities either. Currently, Tharizdun is still the only god I know of offering the Force domain. That's often the case with 3.0->3.5. Sometimes the newer version isn't at all similar to the previous one because they forgot about it, but it's still officially the current one, and RAW, yes, Turaglas probably grants ghoul-related spells (and I fully agree that this makes no sense and that they should have named the new domain Starvation or something to avoid the confusion). And here, it's clearly not what happened. They were perfectly aware of this domain, and decided to reprint it while changing only two spells.


Just... ask your DM to add it to a list somewhere?

I mean, yeah, obviously. In a real game I'd do that, and most DMs would just say that I can use the old version of the Force domain if I want to. My question was not linked to any game I'm in, I just saw that oddity and wondered what you guys could find.

[pabelfly]

Currently, Tharizdun is still the only god I know of offering the Force domain.

Aureon and The Sovereign Host both have the Force Domain too.

[GeoffWatson]

Black Blade of Disaster is probably the most similar effect, though it's sword-shaped rather than spherical.

[ShurikVch]

I don't know, the two domains are basically identical except for two spells, and their given power is also the same. It really feels like an update to 3.5 of a 3.0 resource. In TotEE, they didn't write "clerics of Tharizdun have a Force domain specific to them", it's just that that's where the Force domain was first defined. It's not like SpC defined other deities either. Currently, Tharizdun is still the only god I know of offering the Force domain. That's often the case with 3.0->3.5. Sometimes the newer version isn't at all similar to the previous one because they forgot about it, but it's still officially the current one, and RAW, yes, Turaglas probably grants ghoul-related spells (and I fully agree that this makes no sense and that they should have named the new domain Starvation or something to avoid the confusion). And here, it's clearly not what happened. They were perfectly aware of this domain, and decided to reprint it while changing only two spells.
Firstly: which "two" spells? As far as I see, Annihilation was the only change...

Secondly: Dragon printed statistics for Tharizdun - he have at-will Annihilation SLA

Thirdly: even if there truly was no other deity with Force domain (which isn't the case) - that domain still would be available for those who creating their own settings

Fourthly: Just because two domains have the same name, it doesn't mean they can't co-exist. Say, the "Seven Deadly Domains: Spells for Sinners" article introduced seven new domains (based on <inappropriate topic> :smallwink:), one of which is Wrath. But wait - domain of this name was already published in the Book of Exalted Deeds! Does it mean Kharash now grants one of the "Seven Deadly Domains"? (You know, the being so goodier-than-Good he even able to combine Assassin lifestyle with Good alignment) Or does it mean there are two different domains of the same name? (After all, there are different monsters with the same name - why domains couldn't have the same treatment?)

Finally, Yvonnel Baenre II (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yvonnel_Baenre_II):

Quickly growing tired of her infancy, Yvonnel used her implanted memories of her grandmother to cast a much older version of the spell Haste, one with the supposed drawback of aging the caster 1 year each time the spell was cast. Multiple casts of the spell had the desired effect of aging the infant Yvonnel into a shockingly beautiful young woman in very short order.
As we can see, by the canon, not just spells which existed once don't disappear on their own, but even older version of current spells are still exist in the world, and just waiting those who would prepare and cast them...

[Quertus]

Now that? That’s a power worthy of a Chronomancer class. :smallbiggrin:

[Jervis]

Wish to create a divine scroll, warlock, time travel to when the spell was available and nap it, make a ice assassin of the god in question so they can scribe a scroll for you, then just be a archivist and yoink it.


Midgard dwarf can create scroll with such spell.

8 outsider HD, no LA, and better than artificer crafting? How have I never heard of these guys before? They have “Cohort” written all over them, just use one of those ways to share XP so you can pay their XP costs to get around that old problem and you’re set. That said I don’t believe they can make scrolls since their ability lists “of those types”, so you would need custom magic items to do it.




Finally, Yvonnel Baenre II (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yvonnel_Baenre_II):

As we can see, by the canon, not just spells which existed once don't disappear on their own, but even older version of current spells are still exist in the world, and just waiting those who would prepare and cast them...

The fact that this means 3.5 spells canonically exist in 5e makes me want to actually run a 5e game again so I can make a 3.5 cleric that was raised from the dead the villain.

[Satinavian]

If the spell only existed on a domain list and the domain was updated, that spell doesn't exist on any list or in any domain anymore. It therefore does not have a spell level anymore, because spell levels only exist in relation in context of such lists. And no method to borrow some off-list spell would work with a spell that has no level and is on no list.

So : It is not possible.

You could try to get your group to accept the older domain.

You could "reinvent" the spell as part of original research if your GM allows.

[Fizban]

Black Blade of Disaster is probably the most similar effect, though it's sword-shaped rather than spherical.
While it's not on the list of renames, I'm pretty confident the "official update" would be Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, also found in SpC.

Why is it not on the Force domain in SpC, you might ask? Because 1: a Sphere of Annihilation has nothing to do with Force, and 2: the SpC version of the Force domain is almost certainly being updated from. . . previous "updates" of the Force domain, in say, Complete Divine, where they replaced the original spell with something less busted. I would not be surprised if whoever updated/wrote Sphere of Ultimate Destruction didn't even realize that it was originally in the Force domain- and if they did, again, it's entirely reasonable to leave it out since it has nothing to do with magical Force.

The Force domain and Tharizdun are done no favors by their association- they made two special domains for the evil clerics of the adventure, but while Madness is obviously not something for your everyday PC Cleric, Force sounds like it should be. So it gets nerfed into something bland that the players don't want anymore.

[Inevitability]

A class 9 Evil Node (CoR) might grant it: perhaps Tharizdun's influence is, in places, strong enough that his favored magic leaks through? That said, Champions of Ruin mentions that 'Evil nodes more powerful than class 5 have not been found, though theoretically they could exist'.

[ngilop]

You see, there is this 3.0 book, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. In it, a new domain is described, the Force domain, exclusive to Tharizdun, the god of madness. There is one interesting spell in that domain that was never reprinted anywhere afaik: Annihilation. For 1rd/level, this Evocation (force) spell creates a Sphere of Annihilation and you can control it as if you had a Talisman of the Sphere. Very nice spell, cool domain, no problem. Except that in SpC, that domain was updated to have Bigby's Crushing Hand as a 9th level spell instead. Annihilation then become a spell that exists, but is in no domain and no class list. Is there a way to cast it?

If it was level 7 or less, a Wish could replicate it, or even an Anyspell. If it was on an obscure class list, Recaster or Wyrm Wizard could add it to your list. If it was on a domain list that you couldn't access, maybe a Domain Draught would do the trick. I'm not even sure an artificer could create a scroll of Annihilation, since there's no "minimum caster level" for the spell since there's no class that can cast it. Is there a way to cast Annihilation that the Playground knows of? Only once would suffice, since afterwards it can be put into a scroll, copied into an archivist's prayerbook and shared with the world (another problem with artificer, the created scroll would be neither arcane nor divine, and couldn't be copied by an archivist).

Edit: I know of Zaq's "Thack o'Grugnord" who used a Shaper of Forms's Like Begets Like to argue that a spellbook with a 2e spell was "similar" to a spellbook with another 2e spell, and that you could argue that a spellbook with a 9th level spell is "similar" to a spellbook with another 9th level spell. I don't think it works that way, since it would mean you could basically get any number of spells with Like Begets Like, which is kinda broken.


So..

Like..

isn't that exactly what the spell Sphere of Ultimate Destruction is?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So..

Like..

isn't that exactly what the spell Sphere of Ultimate Destruction is?Not exactly. The annihilation spell actually creates a sphere of annihilation, which is an artifact, and it's significantly more powerful than the sphere created by sphere of ultimate destruction, if only because only deities can resurrect those destroyed by the artifact. The artifact sphere has a few weaknesses that the sphere of ultimate destruction's version does not, such as being destroyed by a gate spell, although since the annihilation spell actually creates an artifact that is explicitly immune to dispelling, it's likely the spell-created sphere is, as well. So it's a little bit of a tossup.

Also, someone with a talisman of the sphere has the possibility of taking control of an annihilation sphere, whereas it doesn't on a sphere created by sphere of ultimate destruction.

[ShurikVch]

Sphere of Annihilation has nothing to do with Force
Sphere of Annihilation is one of three ways to destroy Wall of Force and similar effects

[Inevitability]

Sphere of Annihilation is one of three ways to destroy Wall of Force and similar effects

Isn't Disintegrate also in the (former) Force domain? Seems to be for the same reason.

[wilphe]

The fact that this means 3.5 spells canonically exist in 5e makes me want to actually run a 5e game again so I can make a 3.5 cleric that was raised from the dead the villain.

That's not the 3.5 version of haste that ages you.

I don't think 3.0 did either - it was hideously broken but not for that

The 2E version does age you, I don't know about earlier

[Jervis]

That's not the 3.5 version of haste that ages you.

I don't think 3.0 did either - it was hideously broken but not for that

The 2E version does age you, I don't know about earlier

I know it’s the ADnD version that does it. I’m just saying that if 2e spells can then so do 3.x ones

[Fizban]

Sphere of Annihilation is one of three ways to destroy Wall of Force and similar effects
In the same way that you could put a Forestfire spell in a Forest domain- it's technically related, and this example even links the names, but a domain all about creating a thing that which finishes off with the destruction of that thing doesn't make sense.

The given fluff is that you use so much Force you punch a temporary hold in reality, but it reads to me like reverse-justification- that they wanted a way to give a BBEG a Sphere of Annihilation without the side-effects of giving one to the PCs. Maybe it really honestly was just a cool consequence they thought of for the most powerful force blast- but most of the domain isn't force blasts, those that are there are not very powerful (one isn't even a [force] spell), and again, having the biggest X spell be one that does the exact opposite of X doesn't make much sense. So, reverse-justification.

Isn't Disintegrate also in the (former) Force domain? Seems to be for the same reason.
Nope. The Force domain in RttoEE has no Disintegrate.

[Jay R]

Annihilation then become a spell that exists, but is in no domain and no class list.

No, it does not exist. It existed in a previous game. 3.0 content does not exist in 3.5 unless the DM puts it in -- just like AD&D content, or original D&D content.


Is there a way to cast it?

That's up to the DM. Ask your DM if it's allowed, and if so, who can learn it, and how.

[pabelfly]

That's up to the DM. Ask your DM if it's allowed, and if so, who can learn it, and how.

"Homebrew it" is a solution, sure, but it's the most obvious and boring way to solve the problem. I think it's much more interesting challenge to try to find a legal and RAW way to do this without changing the rules of the game itself.

I think I have an actual solution: Master Specialist. At 2nd, 5th and 8th level "you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level that you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level." Unlike other prestige classes that let you add spells, this one doesn't specify that this has to be in any class's spell list, so I'd argue that this could legitimately pick the Annihilation spell, as long as you had 9th-level spells when taking one of those levels in this class. And are an Evocation specialist, of course.

[loky1109]

No, it does not exist. It existed in a previous game. 3.0 content does not exist in 3.5 unless the DM puts it in -- just like AD&D content, or original D&D content.
It's not true. As I remember there is special point about unupdated content.

[Asmotherion]

The best way I can think of is to Wish for a scroll of the spell, as said above.

[redking]

It's not true. As I remember there is special point about unupdated content.

Someone posted the actual text of that it was was kind of weak. Basically DM fiat.

[Jay R]

"Homebrew it" is a solution, sure, but it's the most obvious and boring way to solve the problem. I think it's much more interesting challenge to try to find a legal and RAW way to do this without changing the rules of the game itself.

It's only a legal solution, and it's only RAW, if the DM allows that book as part of the game in the first place.


I think I have an actual solution: Master Specialist. At 2nd, 5th and 8th level "you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level that you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level." Unlike other prestige classes that let you add spells, this one doesn't specify that this has to be in any class's spell list, so I'd argue that this could legitimately pick the Annihilation spell, as long as you had 9th-level spells when taking one of those levels in this class. And are an Evocation specialist, of course.

Yes, you could argue that. Specifically, you could argue that to the DM, who will make the decision of whether that spell from that book is part of the rules of that game. That isn't "homebrewing"; it's making a ruling, which is the DM's job.

That's no different from the DM saying "This game will be just the core books" or "the core books plus The Complete X books." Or even "This campaign will be AD&D 2e, without Unearthed Arcana", or "We're playing original D&D with Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and only the druid class from Eldritch Wizardry." The DM establishes which of the infinite potential versions of the game you are playing.

Having said that, if this question is not about a specific game or campaign, then there is no DM, and you should ignore my suggestion, which is about finding a practical answer for a real game. If you are looking for a theoretical answer for a hypothetical game, I can't help.

[pabelfly]

It's only a legal solution, and it's only RAW, if the DM allows that book as part of the game in the first place.

Yes, you could argue that. Specifically, you could argue that to the DM, who will make the decision of whether that spell from that book is part of the rules of that game. That isn't "homebrewing"; it's making a ruling, which is the DM's job.

That's no different from the DM saying "This game will be just the core books" or "the core books plus The Complete X books." Or even "This campaign will be AD&D 2e, without Unearthed Arcana", or "We're playing original D&D with Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and only the druid class from Eldritch Wizardry." The DM establishes which of the infinite potential versions of the game you are playing.

Having said that, if this question is not about a specific game or campaign, then there is no DM, and you should ignore my suggestion, which is about finding a practical answer for a real game. If you are looking for a theoretical answer for a hypothetical game, I can't help.

The thread question is hypothetical. If the OP didn't make it obvious from their original post, they stated it directly in the thread.

If the question wasn't theoretical, it's obvious that a DM needs to approve anything added to their game, and it's also obvious that "homebrew it" is not an acceptable solution for the problem at hand. Why tell us all something that we all already knew?

[Satinavian]

Then hypothetical it not possible. Because without the domain, the spell is no longer a level 9 spell.

[pabelfly]

Then hypothetical it not possible. Because without the domain, the spell is no longer a level 9 spell.

That's an interesting take. Does the spell exist, and does it have a level?

[ShurikVch]

Since WotC, in the end of 3.5, allowed for Binders (https://web.archive.org/web/20081219000440/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) to get temporary access to their own personal Sphere of Annihilation (which don't even harms the Binder which summoned it!) - then why 9th-level spell shouldn't be able to do it? (Unless you think Binders should be even more special :smallamused:)

[Crichton]

That's an interesting take. Does the spell exist, and does it have a level?

It's a fair question, as Satinavian pointed out a page or so ago as well. If the spell isn't on any list, then it doesn't have a level. If it doesn't have a level and is on no list, it's no longer a legal spell to acquire by any means, right?


How certain are we that the SpC-listed Force domain is an update of the 3.0 domain taken from RtToEE? If it's an update, the spell is apparently gone, lost to the ravages of time, and is on no list. If it's not an update, or not explicitly an update (mainly since ToEE isn't a rulebook, it's a module), then we need to find the specific text that states that unupdated 3.0 material is legal to use in 3.5 as-is. Where's that stated, again?

[icefractal]

It's a fair question, as Satinavian pointed out a page or so ago as well. If the spell isn't on any list, then it doesn't have a level. If it doesn't have a level and is on no list, it's no longer a legal spell to acquire by any means, right?
That, I'm not sure about. The question is whether spells can have levels outside the 0-9 range. Because if not, then "of a level you can cast" would include any spell if the caster in question can cast 9th level spells.

However, not being on a list does mean it's arguably neither divine or arcane.