gestalt samurai balance

[xshot40]

Im running a japanese inspired campaign and one of my players is interested in playing a samurai (cw). Even with imperious command I think theyll dramatically under preform compared to the other players. I want to let the play a gestalt of the two samurai classes (CW) & (Oa) and im looking for peoples input on weather they believe it would be balanced. given that both are extremely low tier classes I imagine it would bring them somewhere around high tier 4 to low tier 3 but im wondering if anyone has experimented with this previously

[lylsyly]

Add a good save and seven bonus feats (plus the ability to spend gold to improve your weapon[somethiing you can already do?]) to a class that gives free TWF feats (suboptimal) and kiai strike?

I think it would still be tier 5, maybe low tier 4, certainly not tier 3. But that is just my opinion.

[Doctor Despair]

Don't forget that immunity to mind-affecting effects isn't sufficient to have immunity to use of the intimidate skill. Intimidate is a natural ability; only fear attacks (ex, su, or sp abilities) automatically inherit the mind-affecting quality. This means that with Imperious Command, Mass Staredown and Improved Mass Staredown become a very viable mid-game technique for combat utility, only becoming nonfunctional against enemies who are mindless or who specifically have immunity to fear (such as paladins or binders). Due to this, I'd probably rate them at like T4. They do damage with their melee focus, can debuff/disable most enemies fairly consistently, have decent social options as a result, but only get 2 ranks/level (one of which is consumed by intimidate) and no spellcasting, so they may struggle with versatility.

If you're adding OA samurai on top of it, they're getting a big buff to will save, 2 skill points, Ancentral Relic, and a bunch of bonus feats from a fixed list. That's fine; it probably doesn't raise it above the T4 I already think it sits at. The extra skill ranks will help, but probably not enough to really bump it up a whole tier. The bonus feats just make them better at the one thing they were already good at: melee combat.

Without some sort of spellcasting or access to greater versatility, they're probably not going to break into T3. To keep with the flavor of the samurai, you could, instead of gestalting the two samurai classes together, gestalt CW Samurai with one of the Tome of Battle classes like Swordsage, Warblade, or Crusader. That would bump it up to a decently good T3.

[Biggus]

Im running a japanese inspired campaign and one of my players is interested in playing a samurai (cw). Even with imperious command I think theyll dramatically under preform compared to the other players. I want to let the play a gestalt of the two samurai classes (CW) & (Oa) and im looking for peoples input on weather they believe it would be balanced. given that both are extremely low tier classes I imagine it would bring them somewhere around high tier 4 to low tier 3 but im wondering if anyone has experimented with this previously

This is basically what I've done, I just gave them the class features of both versions. Still only tier 4 IMO, definitely not overpowered.

[enderlord99]

Tristalt of both Samurai classes plus Fighter should be vaguely decent in a party that's otherwise tier 3 and 4, probably.

EDIT: That's three tier-5 classes with significant chassis overlap; as such, it probably still won't be good by T4 standards (and definitely won't reach T3)

[Jervis]

Im running a japanese inspired campaign and one of my players is interested in playing a samurai (cw). Even with imperious command I think theyll dramatically under preform compared to the other players. I want to let the play a gestalt of the two samurai classes (CW) & (Oa) and im looking for peoples input on weather they believe it would be balanced. given that both are extremely low tier classes I imagine it would bring them somewhere around high tier 4 to low tier 3 but im wondering if anyone has experimented with this previously

I think the actual answer is to let them play a Sword Sage with alignment requirements

[Doctor Despair]

I'll also add that you shouldn't forget the Samurai Dead Levels ACF:


Dead Levels
The samurai has six dead levels, the first of which occurs at 4th level. The samurai class is a highly specialized warrior who is extremely talented at demoralizing opponents, two-weapon fighting, and making a single decisive strike. Their primary dead level ability offers an alternate use of a daily charged ability by developing a skill that samurai are already good at using.

Breaking Stare (Ex): At 4th level, the samurai can internalize their mastery of kiai into making a subject fear for their life. When attempting to change behavior, a samurai can spend 1 use of their kiai smite ability to negate a target's Wisdom modifier for a single Intimidate check. At 9th level, a samurai negates a target's modifiers on saves against fear. At 13th level, a samurai negates a target's immunity from being intimidated for being a paladin of 3rd level or higher. At 15th level, a samurai reduces the size modifier of a target by one category. At 18th level, a samurai reduces the size modifier of a target by two categories.

Interrogator (Ex): At 19th level, the samurai becomes so certain in the use of Intimidate to change behavior that the character can use it reliably even under adverse conditions. When making an Intimidate check to change behavior, the samurai may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the character from doing so.

They take the already-great intimidation frame of the samurai and make it even better.

[Gnaeus]

Tristalt of both Samurai classes plus Fighter should be vaguely decent in a party that's otherwise tier 3 and 4, probably.

EDIT: That's three tier-5 classes with significant chassis overlap; as such, it probably still won't be good by T4 standards (and definitely won't reach T3)

Lets not get carried away. It is a a bit MAD, requiring Str, Dex, and Cha, but certainly high 4, probably low 3. Lets look at milepoints

L1 Masterwork Weapons, EWP Bastard Sword. For our feats we can take Intimidating Prowess and Intimidating Strike (both are on fighter + feat list so either 1 general). So a basic Sword and Board fighter, with +1 to hit/d10 damage weapon, with a debuff on every attack. 2 good saves and 4 skills/level. Some out of combat utility with intimidate.

L2 EWP Bastard Sword (CW1), TWF (CW2), Intimidating Prowess (F1), Intimidating Strike (G1), WF Bastard Sword (F2), WF Longbow (OA2). So some switch hitting with ranged, still good intimidate. TWFing with 2 MW weapons 1 at +1.

L6 EWP Bastard Sword (CW1), TWF (CW2), Intimidating Prowess (F1), Intimidating Strike (G1), WF Bastard Sword (F2), WF Longbow (OA2) Skill Focus Intimidate (Zhent ftr 3), Quick Draw (CW 5), PB Shot (OA 4), Weapon Spec Longbow (F4), Martial Study (Iron Heart: Wall of Blades) (F6), Imperious Command (G6) Unknown General Feat (G3). +Extended intimidate and ki smite. So, fear lockdown tricks now fully active. Intimidate bonus approx +21 (9 ranks +3 skill focus +3 str+2 cha+4 samurai). Melee is also pretty solid. Lets remember that a standard action attack which triggers an intimidate check which forces opponent to cower for a round compares pretty favorably with a martial strike or channeling a low level spell.

L10 EWP Bastard Sword (CW1), TWF (CW2), Intimidating Prowess (F1), Intimidating Strike (G1), WF Bastard Sword (F2), WF Longbow (OA2), Skill Focus Intimidate (Zhent ftr 3), Quick Draw (CW 5), PB Shot (OA 4), Weapon Spec Longbow (F4), Martial Study (Iron Heart: Wall of Blades) (F6), Imperious Command (G6), Weapon Spec Katana (F8), Martial Study (Iron Heart: IHS) (F10), Precise shot (OA 7), Rapid Shot (OA 10), Improved Initiative (CW 8) 2 unknown general Feats (3 and 9) +Extended intimidate, Swift Demoralization, Mass Staredown and ki smite.

So, a very credible ranged combatant (Weapon Focus, PB shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Spec), and melee combatant (TWF, WF Bastard Sword, Weapon Spec Bastard Sword, Wall of Blades with a 1/2 cost +3 bastard sword (since you sacrificed vendor trash to enchant it), who can IHS negative effects and lock down enemies with a swift action. Quick Draw to let you switch rapidly between the two when the enemy closes with the archer (and beneficial with iajutsu focus which it also has in class). With 2 more feats to push in a direction of his choice or spend on general good feats.

I think that is better than a barbarian (the benchmark T4 mundane combatant) and very very comparable to a warblade or duskblade. Personally, I think having a MEANINGFUL ranged option is beneficial, but if we wanted a more standard melee combatant, we could switch out Unicorn and 1 fighter feat for a heaver melee focus, like an early entry Jack B Quick with TWF and tripping, or a charge build.

The more standard gestalt between CW and OA samurai won't break 3, but should be a low 4. Its basically just an OA samurai with a handful of extra sub-optimal feats (Heavy armor, EWP, TWF, Quick draw, Imp Init by level 10) and an opportunity to play intimidate tricks if you go that route. Fighter is the tier break point and its probably as good as/better than fighter.

[ngilop]

Im running a japanese inspired campaign and one of my players is interested in playing a samurai (cw). Even with imperious command I think theyll dramatically under preform compared to the other players. I want to let the play a gestalt of the two samurai classes (CW) & (Oa) and im looking for peoples input on weather they believe it would be balanced. given that both are extremely low tier classes I imagine it would bring them somewhere around high tier 4 to low tier 3 but im wondering if anyone has experimented with this previously

This is exactly what i did with my samurai. (well, i also added invocations)

I think it fills the gaps either samurai was missing and I feel puts them on par with a Ranger (so tier '4' for those who care)