what happens if you tie a magic dagger to a stick

[ftafp]

apologies for the dumb question, but I was thinking about something recently that seemed odd to me. the rules for improvised weapons in the PHB say that if an item is similar enough to a type of weapon it can be treated as such, citing using a table leg as a club as an example. My question is, what happens if an improvised weapon is or incorporates a magic weapon in its own right, for example tying a magic dagger to a stick and using it as a spear. would the improvised spear have the dagger's magic properties, or would it just be a generic spear or improvised weapon?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Unless you spent a great deal of effort on it, I'd probably just have it remain as a dagger. A knife attached to a wooden shaft isn't automatically a spear, balanced as a spear or functional in the way that a spear would be.

If an effort is made to combine the items properly (likely with a related skill check or paying a craftsman to do it for you) I see no issue with it, and at that point it wouldn't even be an improvised spear, you would have converted it into a spear fully.

[Gignere]

I agree with above poster if you put enough time and effort it would be a spear/pike/glaive. This would be a creative way to get a PAM compatible weapon even if your DM is purely rolling on tables for magic items.

[PhantomSoul]

I agree with above poster if you put enough time and effort it would be a spear/pike/glaive. This would be a creative way to get a PAM compatible weapon even if your DM is purely rolling on tables for magic items.

With a cute distinction between the main Attack (Magical knife for poking) and the PAM freebie (non-Magical stick for bashing)

[Brookshw]

I'd give it to you. Bonus points if you strip it down to the tang then insert it.

[GeoffWatson]

Yeah, you'd need to do a proper job of it.

I remember, back in high school, some players would try this sort of thing - tie 5 daggers to a stick, claim it's like a spear but does 5d4 damage.

[Gignere]

With a cute distinction between the main Attack (Magical knife for poking) and the PAM freebie (non-Magical stick for bashing)

Yeah but at least the OA as they enter your reach is still magical. Definitely better than stuck with a non magical PAM weapon.

[PhantomSoul]

Yeah, you'd need to do a proper job of it.

I remember, back in high school, some players would try this sort of thing - tie 5 daggers to a stick, claim it's like a spear but does 5d4 damage.

The Trident's getting Piercing envy

Of course, bonus fun when the Dagger falls off (not sure stripping the Magic Weapon to components is a safe bet to secure it better... who knows where the magic hides and whether the Dagger needs to stay intact for that!)

[Keltest]

The Trident's getting Piercing envy

Of course, bonus fun when the Dagger falls off (not sure stripping the Magic Weapon to components is a safe bet to secure it better... who knows where the magic hides and whether the Dagger needs to stay intact for that!)

Generally I would say either that the magic is 8n the blade, or the whole thing resists disassembling

[greenstone]

who knows where the magic hides and whether the Dagger needs to stay intact for that!)

For me, the Ship of Theseus does not apply to magic items. The whole thing is enchanted, and breaking off any part of the whole damages the item.

Now enchanting an item does add some robustness (from the DMG, magic items are very strong), and in my game items have to be well-made to even accept enchantment in the first place, so accidental breakage is not an issue.

Deliberate breakage, however, will ruin an item. Strip the handle off a magical dagger and now you have a nonmagical handle and a nonmagical blade.

[nickl_2000]

Tie it to the end of a stick? It gets broken off pretty much immediately. Combat it rough on things and tying a dagger to the end of a stick wouldn't result in much in a real combat. On the other hand, it you were to use carpentry and smithing and spend some time on it it seems fine to me. However, I'm a more permissive DM because I DM my kids and let them get away with a lot.

[Damon_Tor]

The problem I have with this whole concept is that a dagger is a 1d4 weapon, while a spear is 1d6. The implication of that is blade size: a spear should have a larger point, more similar to a short sword.


For me, the Ship of Theseus does not apply to magic items. The whole thing is enchanted, and breaking off any part of the whole damages the item.

Now enchanting an item does add some robustness (from the DMG, magic items are very strong), and in my game items have to be well-made to even accept enchantment in the first place, so accidental breakage is not an issue.

Deliberate breakage, however, will ruin an item. Strip the handle off a magical dagger and now you have a nonmagical handle and a nonmagical blade.

This is supported by the fact that a single magic glove does nothing without the other.

[Keltest]

The problem I have with this whole concept is that a dagger is a 1d4 weapon, while a spear is 1d6. The implication of that is blade size: a spear should have a larger point, more similar to a short sword.

A spear blade is not going to be substantially larger than a dagger blade. Indeed, a spear tip might actually be smaller. But leverage is a thing, and physics favors the spear over the dagger for a few different reasons, many of them involving not getting poked back.

[Leon]

You have a dagger on a stick. Time taken to properly attach it might well change it from dagger to a javelin or dart (depending on size of stick) but merely tying it wont.

[Slipjig]

If the DM was feeling generous, the best case is probably reach on dagger attacks, but probably with a roll every time you attack to see if it falls apart. If you have some tools and proficiency with them, maybe skip the roll.

Now if you were willing to do the job right and actually used the dagger as materials for crafting a proper magic spear, I'd give you a break on the materials cost.

[Chronos]

My ruling would be that it's an improvised weapon, it's similar enough to a spear to do spear damage, it still isn't actually a spear so you can't use versatile or polearm master, and it counts as a magic weapon for damage resistance. It would not, however, benefit from the specific magical properties of the dagger (a +1 to attack and damage, or whatever else it does).

You could attach it securely enough that it wouldn't fall apart in combat with a simple ability check and simple materials (for instance, a lashing tied with twine). Roll the check in secret; you don't learn whether it was good enough or not until you try to use it. If, on the other hand, you have proficiency in weaponsmithing tools, some downtime, and have the right tools available, then you could really attach it properly, and make a weapon that really does count as a spear (including for versatile and polearm master), but still wouldn't carry over any of the magical abilities. And if you have whatever level of skill, tools, and time is needed to craft magic items from scratch, then you could turn it into a spear with magical properties (probably the same properties as the original dagger, but who knows with magic), without the usual exotic and expensive raw materials.

Try the same thing with a magical staff and a magical dagger, and make it a proper single magical item, and you definitely don't know what the properties of the new spear are going to be.

[Leon]

If the DM was feeling generous, the best case is probably reach on dagger attacks

Not really, if this was a setting with more than 5ft range increments maybe but its not.
Would have to be a rather long stick to give reach ~ a spear doesn't have reach in 5e but a Pike does.

[greenstone]

Tie it to the end of a stick? It gets broken off pretty much immediately. Combat it rough on things and tying a dagger to the end of a stick wouldn't result in much in a real combat.

On the other hand, tying a knife to a stick is an old and well-used survival tactic. Some knives come with lashing holes specifically for that purpose.

[rel]

My rulings would be:
You create an improvised weapon. It's close enough to a spear to be treated as such.

The dagger is still magical, and since you're stabbing creatures with it, any magical enhancements it has that specifically concern stabbing apply as normal, while more esoteric or activatable abilities probably don't.

Taking a short rest to find / shape a suitable stick and secure the dagger thoroughly creates a reliable spear, mechanically identical to a normal spear with the above considerations regarding the daggers magic.

Tying the dagger to a stick using an object interaction in combat to create a weapon of desperation results in a less reliable tool that has a 10% chance to break after each attack.

[Chronos]

The dagger is still magical, and since you're stabbing creatures with it, any magical enhancements it has that specifically concern stabbing apply as normal, while more esoteric or activatable abilities probably don't.
Except, how does the magic work? Even taking something simple like a +1: Maybe that's because the blade is magically sharp... or maybe it's because it magically guides the hand wielding it to move in the appropriate ways. If the former, it'd carry over when it's lashed to a stick, but if the latter, it wouldn't, because the appropriate movements for a spear are completely different from the appropriate movements for a dagger.

[Reach Weapon]

the rules for improvised weapons [...] for example tying a magic dagger to a stick [...]

A bunch of comments have touched on this, but I didn't see it said explicitly:
Tying a dagger to a stick is "crafting"; improvising a weapon is more about "found" configurations.

If, over the course of combat, a creature threw a dagger such that it pierced a narrow slat of a tall fence (or whatever) and then yanked the whole thing intending to use it as a glaive, that would be improvisation.

[Sception]

If I were the DM, yes, I would and generally do allow players to reforge or rebuild a magical weapon into another type of weapon capable of bearing the same enchantment if doing so better fits their mechanical build and/or aesthetic concept. I usually make people jump through a few hoops - like you might need to find a special forge or earn a favor from a particular npc, so generalist builds that can just pick up and use whatever weapons they find will still have an edge over specialist builds that can only work with particular weapons.

But yeah, I want magic items to be cool and fun, and a magic weapon that nobody in the party will actually use just isn't that. You can say it's the party's own fault if that happens, but if something in the game isn't as fun as it should be, my general thought as a DM is to ask what I can do to make it more fun, not to ask who's fault it is that it went wrong in the first place.

[rel]

Except, how does the magic work? Even taking something simple like a +1: Maybe that's because the blade is magically sharp... or maybe it's because it magically guides the hand wielding it to move in the appropriate ways. If the former, it'd carry over when it's lashed to a stick, but if the latter, it wouldn't, because the appropriate movements for a spear are completely different from the appropriate movements for a dagger.

That's a fair point, +numbers enhancement bonuses simply don't exist in my game worlds, and magical items, which are almost exclusively custom, don't grant inherent skill or knowledge.
My rulings are based on assumptions about the nature of the game universe and obviously won't be appropriate for every table.

[greenstone]

Related question (inspired by another thread here):

What if you sovereign glue a magic dagger to a stick? Does that change any of the answers above?

[Reach Weapon]

What if you sovereign glue a magic dagger to a stick?
I think the addition of sovereign glue lowers the mechanical crafting difficulty to negligible and makes re-crafting more difficult, but does not change the chance to end up with a magically cohesive item as a result.

[Leon]

At best a spear that would let you do d6 while wielding in 2 hands

[rel]

Related question (inspired by another thread here):

What if you sovereign glue a magic dagger to a stick? Does that change any of the answers above?

If a suitably shaped stick (a quarterstaff for example) 'is provided, I'd rule sovereign glue bypasses the need for crafting and lets a character create a reliable magic spear with a simple object interaction instead of an hours crafting.