True Resurrection vs at-will Cure

[Quertus]

The actual specifics are…complicated. So I’ll try and ask this as a general question.

So, suppose you were building a character. A caster. You had a vague “plan” for the character, but, come to find out, you’re the only truly viable healer. Not what you intended, but it’s what the party needs, you spend a few build resources to make it happen, the rest of the party spends a few build resources to, say, be able to UMD wands of Lesser Vigor, or use Crusader strikes or stances, great teamwork, everyone works together to make this party work however they can, so you’re not shouldering all the burden, and you’ve still gotten your build to work, despite adding in primary “party healer” duties.

True Resurrection comes online. Hooray! Between that and Mindrape, what can’t you cure?

But then you realize that you’ve got 3 competing options, two of which look shockingly similar:
Default: you can keep things like they are.
Vigor: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to give everyone fast healing 1.
Cure: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to gain the ability to cast Cure Light Wounds at will.

What’s the play? Under what conditions would you choose each option? When the rest of the party can kinda pathetically heal damage (predicated on $$$ resources and magic item shop access, or active foes, or 3/day, or other such limitations), what value do you place on “unlimited” healing power?

Now, there’s probably other, better options for unlimited healing. Feel free to mention them, but understand that they’re probably “soft banned” under “someone did that last campaign”, or some similar issue. Thus my primary question is, if those were your only 3 options, under what conditions would you give up a feat and a 9th level spell slot for “infinite” HP healing?

[pabelfly]

Just to be clear, when you say "at will", how many times a turn can you use either of your two options in combat?

[Doctor Despair]

But then you realize that you’ve got 3 competing options, two of which look shockingly similar:
Default: you can keep things like they are.
Vigor: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to give everyone fast healing 1.
Cure: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to gain the ability to cast Cure Light Wounds at will.

Now, there’s probably other, better options for unlimited healing. Feel free to mention them, but understand that they’re probably “soft banned” under “someone did that last campaign”, or some similar issue. Thus my primary question is, if those were your only 3 options, under what conditions would you give up a feat and a 9th level spell slot for “infinite” HP healing?

1. Probably for the best. Unless you're under a massive time crunch in the plot, if you have 9ths online, you should be able to get people back to full given enough time anyway.

2. Maybe there is a time crunch, and you're worried that you're going to get knocked unconscious (but not killed, as I assume that would end the vigor effect?). This is... fine. I have a recommendation though. Summon something with Fast Healing 1 and have the person with Martial Stance attack it (since I assume the DM banned attacking objects or walls or things to heal). That ought to get infinite out of combat healing.

3. Maybe there is a time crunch, but you're confident you're not going to get downed. This heals more than vigor on average, but all on one target, and consumes your action. If you have 9ths, everyone should have enough hp that you're not desperate to get 1d8+5 on them versus 1. You also have better things to be doing with your action economy in the actual fight. Don't bother with this.

[Quertus]

Just to be clear, when you say "at will", how many times a turn can you use either of your two options in combat?

Ah, the “vigor” option is a one-off that lasts all day; the “at will” Cure Light Wounds is, I believe, limited to 1/round. Does that answer your question?

[Quertus]

1. Probably for the best. Unless you're under a massive time crunch in the plot, if you have 9ths online, you should be able to get people back to full given enough time anyway.

2. Maybe there is a time crunch, and you're worried that you're going to get knocked unconscious (but not killed, as I assume that would end the vigor effect?). This is... fine. I have a recommendation though. Summon something with Fast Healing 1 and have the person with Martial Stance attack it (since I assume the DM banned attacking objects or walls or things to heal). That ought to get infinite out of combat healing.

3. Maybe there is a time crunch, but you're confident you're not going to get downed. This heals more than vigor on average, but all on one target, and consumes your action. If you have 9ths, everyone should have enough hp that you're not desperate to get 1d8+5 on them versus 1. You also have better things to be doing with your action economy in the actual fight. Don't bother with this.

1) the concern is more… hmmm… “it might be tomorrow before I can heal you, but what if we’re attacked tonight?”. Or “am I saving a True Resurrection (or a combat action spent healing, or spell slots dedicated to healing) by keeping everyone topped off?”.

2a) AFAIK, the vigor effect will survive the character’s death. It will not, however, survive being dispelled.

2b) “unconscious” is a good catch - that’s… rather likely.

2c) “hitting the summoned thing” falls under “did that last time”, sadly. Not banned, but we’ll avoid it if at all possible.

3) would you consider it on a character who healed more than d8+5 per CLW? This particular character isn’t RSoP or whatever else boosts Cure effects, but, if they were, would it be worth doing? (If I also shored up the “unconscious” issue, too, or it was a different campaign where that particular vector wasn’t an issue?)

[bekeleven]

At-Will CLW is not worth a feat and a 9th level spell slot. I'd discount that one immediately.

Fast Healing 1 on the party is pretty sweet, it costs quite a bit to get that as an item. However, if 9s are online, then the cost of wands of lessor vigor are probably pretty trivial. I'd rather buy every party member 50 x 11 HP, that they can recover with their own actions, than spend a feat and a 9th level spell slot on it. Should be more than enough out-of-combat healing to last you through multiple adventures.

So yeah, I'd maintain the status quo on this one.

[Crake]

Im guessing 2) is persisted mass lesser vigor with no metamagic mitigation, wheras 3) is innate spell. I would lean toward 2 as it gives you the option of NOT doing it if you wish, wheras 3 locks you into losing the spellslot.

[pabelfly]

Ah, the “vigor” option is a one-off that lasts all day; the “at will” Cure Light Wounds is, I believe, limited to 1/round. Does that answer your question?

I'd go with Cure Light Wounds. I very much doubt it will make a difference but you'll cure the team up more quickly if time is an issue, and being able to cure one person on average 10HP a round is slightly more helpful than everyone getting 1HP a round.

[Doctor Despair]

I'd go with Cure Light Wounds. I very much doubt it will make a difference but you'll cure the team up more quickly if time is an issue, and being able to cure one person on average 10HP a round is slightly more helpful than everyone getting 1HP a round.

It consumes their spell for the turn though, whereas they could be casting literally any 9th level spell that turn

[pabelfly]

It consumes their spell for the turn though, whereas they could be casting literally any 9th level spell that turn

I thought it was at will and wouldn't be taking up the character's turn. Definitely go with Vigor if that's the case then.

[NichG]

Keep as is I'd say, and prepare Mass Heal in that 9th slot.

[Buufreak]

Im guessing 2) is persisted mass lesser vigor with no metamagic mitigation, wheras 3) is innate spell. I would lean toward 2 as it gives you the option of NOT doing it if you wish, wheras 3 locks you into losing the spellslot.

The argument i look at is, in turn supporting crake here, think of the action economy. If both choices take the same feat slot and same spell slot, but one is a set it and forget it while the other is going to endlessly waste actions, I feel like one is blatantly better than the other.

[sreservoir]

Practically speaking, "unlimited" healing is only worth as much as it saves you until you run into you next limit on sustained action—probably spell slots. How much hp can you expect to lose in a day before you (otherwise) run out of other daily resources?

Now consider the value of a 9th-level slot; there are a number of ways to estimate this, none of which quite agree, but (a) 9th-level slots are pretty likely to be a limiting resource on how many encounters you can get through in a day, and (b) making up for a 9th-level slot per day with magic items runs something like 61.2k (extrapolated minor schema) to 81k (pearl of power). Call it, generously, 60k. For 60k, you could buy: 80 healing belts (~2160 hp healing/day); 146 eternal wands of CLW (~1606/day, though some weirdness around CLs and whether you can get this price because it's from the bard list); 150 minor schemas of CLW (~825/day, pricier but no ambiguity); 150 minor schemas of lesser vigor (1650/day, though as fast healing).

Now, it's not impossible to run encounters that eat up more than couple thousand hp in a day; I feel like you'd have to be going out of your way to do it, and even then I suspect you can get better bang for your buck investing in ways to avoid that damage rather than curing it, but yeah, there are edge cases. I think in most cases though, unlimited is pretty overrated (as always).


The argument i look at is, in turn supporting crake here, think of the action economy. If both choices take the same feat slot and same spell slot, but one is a set it and forget it while the other is going to endlessly waste actions, I feel like one is blatantly better than the other.

One can also just get dispelled, which is not exactly a negligible risk for encounters at this level.

[Telok]

Buy a bag of holding with a bunch of healing belts in it and keep your 9th level slot open, or maybe 20 wands of lesser vigor. Fast heal 1 and umlimited clw are out of combat hp restoration, they assume & require surviving combat to be relevant as opposed to the spell slot that can be used to survive combat or escape/prevent tpk.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yeah, I don't know what kind of campaign you're doing, but if you don't have five or six fights a day, you should be good healing everyone with using all your lower-level spell slots. The chances of you needing them when you have access to 9s is pretty low anyway, and losing a 9th level slot is a harsh cost.

A cleric 17 casting 5 lesser Vigors and 5 Estanna's stews heals up to 250 HP to the party‚ without touching your higher level slots. In your 3rd level slots‚ Vigor is a 40HP heal‚ etc...

And if you want to spend a feat‚ you should prefer Touch of Healing. Only works up to half HP (finish it with actual healing spells)‚ but doesn't take a 9th level slot.

[Crake]

I thought it was at will and wouldn't be taking up the character's turn. Definitely go with Vigor if that's the case then.

“At-Will” in 3.5 means no daily limit on uses, it doesnt mean it lacks any action requirements to use.

[Melcar]

The actual specifics are…complicated. So I’ll try and ask this as a general question.

So, suppose you were building a character. A caster. You had a vague “plan” for the character, but, come to find out, you’re the only truly viable healer. Not what you intended, but it’s what the party needs, you spend a few build resources to make it happen, the rest of the party spends a few build resources to, say, be able to UMD wands of Lesser Vigor, or use Crusader strikes or stances, great teamwork, everyone works together to make this party work however they can, so you’re not shouldering all the burden, and you’ve still gotten your build to work, despite adding in primary “party healer” duties.

True Resurrection comes online. Hooray! Between that and Mindrape, what can’t you cure?

But then you realize that you’ve got 3 competing options, two of which look shockingly similar:
Default: you can keep things like they are.
Vigor: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to give everyone fast healing 1.
Cure: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to gain the ability to cast Cure Light Wounds at will.

What’s the play? Under what conditions would you choose each option? When the rest of the party can kinda pathetically heal damage (predicated on $$$ resources and magic item shop access, or active foes, or 3/day, or other such limitations), what value do you place on “unlimited” healing power?

Now, there’s probably other, better options for unlimited healing. Feel free to mention them, but understand that they’re probably “soft banned” under “someone did that last campaign”, or some similar issue. Thus my primary question is, if those were your only 3 options, under what conditions would you give up a feat and a 9th level spell slot for “infinite” HP healing?

Augment healing actually stacks with vigor, so if you use a 9th level slot to cast a heigtened vigor it heals 19 per round... not 1!

[Khedrac]

Augment healing actually stacks with vigor, so if you use a 9th level slot to cast a heigtened vigor it heals 19 per round... not 1!

Augment healing only fires once per spell - and it has its effect when the recipient receives the spell (i.e. on the caster's turn) not when they gain hit points from the spell's effect (on their turn) so no

So a 9th level heightened lesser vigor with augment healing heals 18hp on cast and grants fast healing 1.

[spectralphoenix]

I wouldn't prepare True Resurrection on a daily basis either. Save the slot for something that can turn the fight around before you have to spend 25k bringing someone back. Prepare Revivify instead, and make sure that any arcane casters or UMD-users have scrolls of Gentle Repose to make sure someone can get to them in time. If that doesn't work, get out and prepare the spell tomorrow.

[ciopo]

I would venture that augmented healing with vigor doesn't work at all. Vigor doesn't have any healing effect to augment, I can at most see the argument of "0+X=X", but the counterargument of a lack of "target heals Y" in vigor is stronger, to my read of the feat and spell.

I would accept a 0+X=X , but it's "weakish" as arguments go, for me at least.

I'm finding myself curious if there is some shenanigans that can be done with vigor due to its conjuration(healing) tag now, however

[Melcar]

Augment healing only fires once per spell - and it has its effect when the recipient receives the spell (i.e. on the caster's turn) not when they gain hit points from the spell's effect (on their turn) so no

So a 9th level heightened lesser vigor with augment healing heals 18hp on cast and grants fast healing 1.

Well I can see how one can and it might very well be the correct interpretation, however, we have always played with it stacking and will continue to do so. In the grander scheemes of things, its not like more healing is broken or OP.


I would venture that augmented healing with vigor doesn't work at all. Vigor doesn't have any healing effect to augment, I can at most see the argument of "0+X=X", but the counterargument of a lack of "target heals Y" in vigor is stronger, to my read of the feat and spell.

I would accept a 0+X=X , but it's "weakish" as arguments go, for me at least.

I'm finding myself curious if there is some shenanigans that can be done with vigor due to its conjuration(healing) tag now, however

The real bad thing is that it grands fast healing, which should be a transmutation spell. However its a Conjuration [Healing] spell and thus Augment Healing does indeed work. At least once per casting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hire a mid-level spellcaster focused on healing. Use that to heal the party.

If everyone has fast healing or otherwise has access to healing (also, see below), a society mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) actually works quite well, since it can shuffle healing to anyone who needs it on every round. Very nice if you can mind-futz a large group of trolls or the tarrasque to share healing and damage (via the share pain power) on the whole party.

Use that feat on Leadership, then pull in whatever critters you want for that. Keep that spell slot free!

[Beni-Kujaku]

If everyone has fast healing or otherwise has access to healing (also, see below), a society mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) actually works quite well, since it can shuffle healing to anyone who needs it on every round. Very nice if you can mind-futz a large group of trolls or the tarrasque to share healing and damage (via the share pain power) on the whole party.

Dreamscarred is decidedly 3rd party. Also, "Healing from ongoing healing effects, such as the fast healing special quality or true metabolism, cannot be transferred." Doesn't work. (with Fast Healing. Might work with Touch of Healing)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dreamscarred is decidedly 3rd party. Also, "Healing from ongoing healing effects, such as the fast healing special quality or true metabolism, cannot be transferred." Doesn't work. (with Fast Healing. Might work with Touch of Healing)Hmm. I guess was thinking of the PF Vitalist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist/#TOC-Collective-Healing-Su-). They're really similar.

Apologies.

[ciopo]

The real bad thing is that it grands fast healing, which should be a transmutation spell. However its a Conjuration [Healing] spell and thus Augment Healing does indeed work. At least once per casting.
Yes, I know, I'm not saying lesser vigor isn't a valid spell to be "metamagicked" with augment healing, I'm saying "too bad lesser vigor doesn't heal".

To use a side example, restoration is conjuration(healing), an augmented healing restoration ... on one hand, it goes from healing 0 to healing 8, on the other hand, "restoration doesn't heal" is just as fair a ruling on it as having it healing 0+spell level.

I mean, the wording is "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast", the amount healed by a restoration is 0, so there is nothing to augment there. That's a valid interpretation

Having restoration go from healing 0 to healing 8 is also a valid interpretation, but to me it's a bit more of a stretch, because restoration is not a spell that heals damage.

Lesser restoration is a bit funnier, because I'm 100% ok with augment healing lesser restoration healing 1d4+4 ability damage. Ok, maybe 80% ok, because pedantic me would point out that lesser restoration uses the word "cure" ability damage, rather than "heal" ability damage. Actually, raise that to 95%, because both "cure" in lesser restoration and "heal" in augment healing are translate to the same verb in my language and their respective sourcebooks in my language

The downside to stay consistent with that is that sadly, lesser vigor, restoration, and any other conjuration(healing) spell that do not heal/cure damage get no benefit from augment healing despite being valid spells for augment healing

[Quertus]

Sounds like the most popular opinion is “leave it as is”. I kinda figured that would be the case, which was why I tried to word the question as, “under what conditions would you…”.

For example, when foes with “wounding” abilities are common, having at will Cure spells is tight. Also, I look at at will Cure spells as a handy way to get on the good side of others - townsfolk, wounded animals, weary soldiers, whatever.


I wouldn't prepare True Resurrection on a daily basis either. Save the slot for something that can turn the fight around before you have to spend 25k bringing someone back. Prepare Revivify instead, and make sure that any arcane casters or UMD-users have scrolls of Gentle Repose to make sure someone can get to them in time. If that doesn't work, get out and prepare the spell tomorrow.

Although I strongly agree with this - it’s one of my favorite tricks - that’s also why I can’t use it. :smallfrown:


Im guessing 2) is persisted mass lesser vigor with no metamagic mitigation, wheras 3) is innate spell. I would lean toward 2 as it gives you the option of NOT doing it if you wish, wheras 3 locks you into losing the spellslot.

Pretty much / functionally, yes. Unfortunately, because of the campaign specifics, and the way I have to back into everything with this (somewhat house rules, somewhat homebrew, somewhat world-specific) build, it’ll cost me a feat (… just like if I didn’t have Persist already, actually), without really giving me any additional options (unlike if I didn’t have Persist already).


Practically speaking, "unlimited" healing is only worth as much as it saves you until you run into you next limit on sustained action—probably spell slots. How much hp can you expect to lose in a day before you (otherwise) run out of other daily resources?

Now consider the value of a 9th-level slot; there are a number of ways to estimate this, none of which quite agree, but (a) 9th-level slots are pretty likely to be a limiting resource on how many encounters you can get through in a day, and (b) making up for a 9th-level slot per day with magic items runs something like 61.2k (extrapolated minor schema) to 81k (pearl of power). Call it, generously, 60k. For 60k, you could buy: 80 healing belts (~2160 hp healing/day); 146 eternal wands of CLW (~1606/day, though some weirdness around CLs and whether you can get this price because it's from the bard list); 150 minor schemas of CLW (~825/day, pricier but no ambiguity); 150 minor schemas of lesser vigor (1650/day, though as fast healing).

Now, it's not impossible to run encounters that eat up more than couple thousand hp in a day; I feel like you'd have to be going out of your way to do it, and even then I suspect you can get better bang for your buck investing in ways to avoid that damage rather than curing it, but yeah, there are edge cases. I think in most cases though, unlimited is pretty overrated (as always).



One can also just get dispelled, which is not exactly a negligible risk for encounters at this level.

When you put it that way, yeah, it’s probably a better plan in most campaigns to just buy the healing.


Yeah, I don't know what kind of campaign you're doing, but if you don't have five or six fights a day, you should be good healing everyone with using all your lower-level spell slots. The chances of you needing them when you have access to 9s is pretty low anyway, and losing a 9th level slot is a harsh cost.

A cleric 17 casting 5 lesser Vigors and 5 Estanna's stews heals up to 250 HP to the party‚ without touching your higher level slots. In your 3rd level slots‚ Vigor is a 40HP heal‚ etc...

And if you want to spend a feat‚ you should prefer Touch of Healing. Only works up to half HP (finish it with actual healing spells)‚ but doesn't take a 9th level slot.

Well, to give you some idea, “wipe out the nest of giant bugs that breed incredibly fast, and eat their dead for food in ways that makes physics need an adult” is on our to-do list. (It’s just run as math at this point, us vs the static size colony, and, thus far, we haven’t had the numbers to succeed. We also don’t know what our “target number” is, and, once we get the requisite numbers, we’ll probably have a boss fight “while not at full strength” on our hands, so we’ve been very conservative about both “what resources we’re willing to expand on the way in”, and our “time to run away” conditions.)

[Melcar]

Yes, I know, I'm not saying lesser vigor isn't a valid spell to be "metamagicked" with augment healing, I'm saying "too bad lesser vigor doesn't heal".

To use a side example, restoration is conjuration(healing), an augmented healing restoration ... on one hand, it goes from healing 0 to healing 8, on the other hand, "restoration doesn't heal" is just as fair a ruling on it as having it healing 0+spell level.

I mean, the wording is "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast", the amount healed by a restoration is 0, so there is nothing to augment there. That's a valid interpretation

Having restoration go from healing 0 to healing 8 is also a valid interpretation, but to me it's a bit more of a stretch, because restoration is not a spell that heals damage.

Lesser restoration is a bit funnier, because I'm 100% ok with augment healing lesser restoration healing 1d4+4 ability damage. Ok, maybe 80% ok, because pedantic me would point out that lesser restoration uses the word "cure" ability damage, rather than "heal" ability damage. Actually, raise that to 95%, because both "cure" in lesser restoration and "heal" in augment healing are translate to the same verb in my language and their respective sourcebooks in my language

The downside to stay consistent with that is that sadly, lesser vigor, restoration, and any other conjuration(healing) spell that do not heal/cure damage get no benefit from augment healing despite being valid spells for augment healing

Restoration heals ability damage, no?

[ciopo]

Restoration heals ability damage, no?
yes, but it's kind of funny, what is augmented healing restoraiton gonna do? "this restoration restores all of your ability damage.. and then 8 more!"

My point mostly being that augment healing has two qualifiers for what spells it applies to heal damage
be conjuration(healing)

and sadly not all conjuration(healing) spell heals damage. remove disease/ neutralize poison are probably the most evident examples.

Now, of course, I accept the argument that you "can" use augment healing to make them heal some damage when previously they healed none, it's just my opinion that "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed" would add nothing to a spell that would otherwise not heal damage.

Consider this, pretend there is a feat that read Augmented healing: "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any spell that you cast." .. Would you really let this add some healing to spells that otherwise don't heal at all? silly example : fireball.

It seems implicit to me that it only applies to spells that heals, or with a reword, "if a spell heals damage, add +2 point per spell level to the amount of damage healed"

[Yogibear41]

Fast healing has the benefit of not wasting action economy, but it has the weakness of being susceptible to dispel magic. Other than that weakness it is the superior choice.

[Doctor Despair]

Fast healing has the benefit of not wasting action economy, but it has the weakness of being susceptible to dispel magic. Other than that weakness it is the superior choice.

If I have 9ths, and the enemy is ECL-appropriate, and they spend a turn dispelling my vigor (1)... I'm calling that a win.

[Gnaeus]

My biggest concern is that some people rule that fast healing turns off at negatives. Without entering that RAW fight, if my table ruled that if you get hit and go to -7, you heal back up, I would be happy with fast healing 1. If they ruled it didn't help below 0, I would go with the do nothing option. Thats usually the main time I'm going to care about small healing at those levels.

[NichG]

If I have 9ths, and the enemy is ECL-appropriate, and they spend a turn dispelling my vigor (1)... I'm calling that a win.

The most likely way for them to do so as a level appropriate enemy would be to drop a Disjunction, so I don't think you would be too thrilled...

[Elenian]

You've got ninth level spells. Just cast an extended planar bubble on a bound Ravid or something1. I honestly can't think of a plausible situation where at-will CLW is worth a feat and a ninth level spell slot.

1. This is not an especially good way of healing, considering you could just bind something that itself has at-will healing, but it'd be funny.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You've got ninth level spells. Just cast an extended planar bubble on a bound Ravid or something1. I honestly can't think of a plausible situation where at-will CLW is worth a feat and a ninth level spell slot.

1. This is not an especially good way of healing, considering you could just bind something that itself has at-will healing, but it'd be funny.Well, I mean, he could always use shapeshifting magic and/or calling magic + body-swapping magic and/or build his own body to become something with regeneration and fast healing. By the time one hits 9th level spells, it's not even particularly difficult as a T1 class to do that for the entire party.

[Endarire]

If you're a Cleric who can cast level 9 spells, what about gating in a Solar to help you for 2+ weeks? They can heal, they have 1/day wish, and are more expendable than your party members!

[Jack_Simth]

The actual specifics are…complicated. So I’ll try and ask this as a general question.

So, suppose you were building a character. A caster. You had a vague “plan” for the character, but, come to find out, you’re the only truly viable healer. Not what you intended, but it’s what the party needs, you spend a few build resources to make it happen, the rest of the party spends a few build resources to, say, be able to UMD wands of Lesser Vigor, or use Crusader strikes or stances, great teamwork, everyone works together to make this party work however they can, so you’re not shouldering all the burden, and you’ve still gotten your build to work, despite adding in primary “party healer” duties.

True Resurrection comes online. Hooray! Between that and Mindrape, what can’t you cure?

But then you realize that you’ve got 3 competing options, two of which look shockingly similar:
Default: you can keep things like they are.
Vigor: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to give everyone fast healing 1.
Cure: you can spend build resources (ie, a feat) and a 9th level spell slot to gain the ability to cast Cure Light Wounds at will.

What’s the play? Under what conditions would you choose each option? When the rest of the party can kinda pathetically heal damage (predicated on $$$ resources and magic item shop access, or active foes, or 3/day, or other such limitations), what value do you place on “unlimited” healing power?

Now, there’s probably other, better options for unlimited healing. Feel free to mention them, but understand that they’re probably “soft banned” under “someone did that last campaign”, or some similar issue. Thus my primary question is, if those were your only 3 options, under what conditions would you give up a feat and a 9th level spell slot for “infinite” HP healing?

The otherwise-planned build matters to my decision tree.

If I'm the party Cleric (or comperable prepared divine caster), then I don't bother with preparing True Res, nor do I bother with infinite healing tricks (unless they only cost a little cash). True Res is a day-after spell, and wands of cure light or lesser vigor (Lesser Infernal Healing in Pathfinder) are cheap. Combat healing is done with the Heal spell.

If I'm a spontaneous divine caster, then I stick with True Res. While yes, it's a day-after spell, it's my easiest access to it, and wands of cure light or lesser vigor are cheap. Again, combat healing is done with the Heal spell. Alternately, if I have a way to get a floating spell known (I often do), I don't bother. Alternately, I don't bother, and just scroll True Res: I'd usually need to pick up the diamonds somewhere anyway, and after the 25k in diamonds, the 3825 gp for the scroll portion is a relatively small tax.

If I'm arcane (or otherwise), and accessing these things via cross-list methods (e.g., Arcane Disciple)? Probably scrolls, wands, and UMD again. Save the feat. Take True Res as a spell known if the vanilla stuff isn't an option.

[Pinkie Pyro]

If you're referring to the innate spell feat for the "at will, but takes a 9th level spell slot" remember that it... doesn't, by RAW, require you to actually be able to cast a spell of 8 levels higher.

and by RAI... a magic item of at will 1st level spell is, what, 2k gold? buy one of those if you don't want to do something silly like at will heal or regenerate or whatever.

[Vaern]

and by RAI... a magic item of at will 1st level spell is, what, 2k gold? buy one of those if you don't want to do something silly like at will heal or regenerate or whatever.

Alternatively, the cost of an unlimited-use item is 5 times the cost of a 1/day item. You could theoretically multiply the cost of a pearl of power or a memento magica by 5 for an unlimited-use variant that effectively gives you infinite spell slots at a given level, which effectively makes all of your spells of that level at-will.