Greywander
2022-09-12, 06:26 PM
I've posted on this topic before and I was thinking about it again as I was considering a forge cleric build and my frustration with the MADness of weapon clerics. I don't think I can sum it up more succinctly than this old post of mine:
I've voiced my concerns with the ASI mechanic before, but it basically comes down to:
You max out your primary stat early (8th level, sometimes even 4th level on e.g. a Custom Lineage). This makes the power curve wonky.
Feats are usually delayed until 12th level or later so you can max out your primary stat. Even build-critical feats. Especially concept-critical feats.
I never feel like I have enough feats. Goes double for MAD builds.
MAD builds in general get kind of screwed over. They typically don't max both stats until 16th level, so they lag behind SAD builds.
Optimized builds often have little room for tertiary stats.
To go a bit more in depth, feats are an optional rule. This means that the classes are balanced around spending all their ASIs on ability scores. The monk is supposed to max DEX and WIS, the paladin is supposed to max STR and CHA, and the barbarian is supposed to max STR and CON. You might think trading an ASI for a feat would be fair, since you take whichever is more valuable to you, the problem is that there is a disparity between SAD and MAD builds in the value of an ASI. SAD characters don't really have a secondary stat, per se; it's more like they have two tertiary stats. MAD characters are expected to max both their primary and secondary stats, while SAD characters will find better value in grabbing a feat over boosting any stat that isn't their primary.
You might say, "Just don't play with feats." But feats are fun. I want feats. They add another axis on which you can customize your character.
Doubling up and giving both an ASI and a feat at the same time solves the disparity. Both MAD and SAD end up with the same number of stat boosts (not including half feats), which means that the intended balance of a featless game is restored. While giving everyone more feats will make them stronger, giving everyone the same number of feats should retain some semblance of balance (though the feats themselves aren't very well balanced against each other). Diminishing returns are also in effect; if you take one feat over another it's because you value that feat more than the other, so being able to take both is less than twice the value.
There's a huge benefit to this, and that's that it removes the "penalty" for playing a MAD character. This means you'll see a lot more unconventional multiclass builds, such as monk/wizard, or any two casters with different casting stats. You'll also see more non-Hexblade bladelocks. In fact, Hexblade in general is diminished in value as a dip. Because every character now gets enough ASIs to guaranty that they can max two stats with points to spare, it really isn't important to be SAD anymore. If you are SAD, then you have the freedom to spread your points out however you wish, shoring up a weak save, improving your skill checks, or just fulfilling your character concept (e.g. a charismatic "televangelist" cleric, when normally clerics can't spare any points for CHA).
But won't this screw with the balance? Well, sort of. The most important thing is keeping the PCs at least somewhat balanced against each other. But, as noted above, diminishing returns are also in effect, both for feat picks and for ASI picks. I still like the method I proposed in the same old thread, which also slowed down the power progression so you wouldn't spike as early:
So, as a simple alternative, what I'm proposing is that an ASI give a +1 to two different stats, and you also get a feat on top. This has the following benefits over the vanilla system:
Slows down primary ability score progression so that you're building it up for most of your adventuring career instead of capping it early.
SAD and MAD builds progress at the same rate.
Get build- and/or concept-critical feats early.
Everyone gets more feats, but MAD builds especially. A lot of feats that get passed over due to lack of budget might see more use in play.
Since you're not giving up ASIs for feats, and you have more opportunities to take half feats, you get a little more room for tertiary stats.
Since writing that, I've come up with a couple additional rules for this. First, if you take a half feat, then your two +1s have to also be different from whatever the half feat gave you. This means there's less incentive to take half feats that boost a primary or secondary stat, giving you greater freedom to explore other half feats.
Second is that we have to acknowledge that with only 5 ASIs (except fighter and rogue) and only being able to put at most +1 towards a stat each time, any stat below a 15 can never be maxed out. Maybe that's a feature, but sometimes something will happen during a campaign that causes your character to radically shift focus. Maybe your rogue finds religion, or your barbarian swears an oath of vengeance, or what have you. Point is, you might need to rapidly reorient your character's stats to match their new direction.
So the second rule change is that there is a cap, which starts at 15 at character creation (which, coincidentally, is the point buy maximum) and increases by 1 at every ASI (maxing out at 20 when you get the fifth ASI). For stats that are below this cap, you can double up for a +2 (but not a +3) so long is you don't exceed the cap. Any stat at or above the cap is limited to getting a +1 at each ASI. Do note that it's still possible to push a stat to 20 before 19th level, you just have to have that stat start higher than 15 and raise it consistently with every ASI. All this does is allow a lower stat to "catch up".
Now, I'm not saying this would be right for every table, because each table is different and some can be quite eccentric. But I will say that I think this is better than what we currently have, and would serve as a better default from which you can implement whatever houserules you need. Even if you don't want to use this specific iteration of the concept, I think most games would still be better off if they gave both an ASI and a feat at the same time.
With that, I think I've fixed all the glaring loopholes uncovered in the original thread. What do you think? Would you be interested in using this in your game? Can you see a way to improve it? Can you find a way to exploit it that I haven't caught yet? Is there a different iteration of this concept that you would use/are using? TBH, I'd be pretty excited if I got to use this as a player, as it would vastly open up my build options and allow a lot more character concepts to come online earlier.
I've voiced my concerns with the ASI mechanic before, but it basically comes down to:
You max out your primary stat early (8th level, sometimes even 4th level on e.g. a Custom Lineage). This makes the power curve wonky.
Feats are usually delayed until 12th level or later so you can max out your primary stat. Even build-critical feats. Especially concept-critical feats.
I never feel like I have enough feats. Goes double for MAD builds.
MAD builds in general get kind of screwed over. They typically don't max both stats until 16th level, so they lag behind SAD builds.
Optimized builds often have little room for tertiary stats.
To go a bit more in depth, feats are an optional rule. This means that the classes are balanced around spending all their ASIs on ability scores. The monk is supposed to max DEX and WIS, the paladin is supposed to max STR and CHA, and the barbarian is supposed to max STR and CON. You might think trading an ASI for a feat would be fair, since you take whichever is more valuable to you, the problem is that there is a disparity between SAD and MAD builds in the value of an ASI. SAD characters don't really have a secondary stat, per se; it's more like they have two tertiary stats. MAD characters are expected to max both their primary and secondary stats, while SAD characters will find better value in grabbing a feat over boosting any stat that isn't their primary.
You might say, "Just don't play with feats." But feats are fun. I want feats. They add another axis on which you can customize your character.
Doubling up and giving both an ASI and a feat at the same time solves the disparity. Both MAD and SAD end up with the same number of stat boosts (not including half feats), which means that the intended balance of a featless game is restored. While giving everyone more feats will make them stronger, giving everyone the same number of feats should retain some semblance of balance (though the feats themselves aren't very well balanced against each other). Diminishing returns are also in effect; if you take one feat over another it's because you value that feat more than the other, so being able to take both is less than twice the value.
There's a huge benefit to this, and that's that it removes the "penalty" for playing a MAD character. This means you'll see a lot more unconventional multiclass builds, such as monk/wizard, or any two casters with different casting stats. You'll also see more non-Hexblade bladelocks. In fact, Hexblade in general is diminished in value as a dip. Because every character now gets enough ASIs to guaranty that they can max two stats with points to spare, it really isn't important to be SAD anymore. If you are SAD, then you have the freedom to spread your points out however you wish, shoring up a weak save, improving your skill checks, or just fulfilling your character concept (e.g. a charismatic "televangelist" cleric, when normally clerics can't spare any points for CHA).
But won't this screw with the balance? Well, sort of. The most important thing is keeping the PCs at least somewhat balanced against each other. But, as noted above, diminishing returns are also in effect, both for feat picks and for ASI picks. I still like the method I proposed in the same old thread, which also slowed down the power progression so you wouldn't spike as early:
So, as a simple alternative, what I'm proposing is that an ASI give a +1 to two different stats, and you also get a feat on top. This has the following benefits over the vanilla system:
Slows down primary ability score progression so that you're building it up for most of your adventuring career instead of capping it early.
SAD and MAD builds progress at the same rate.
Get build- and/or concept-critical feats early.
Everyone gets more feats, but MAD builds especially. A lot of feats that get passed over due to lack of budget might see more use in play.
Since you're not giving up ASIs for feats, and you have more opportunities to take half feats, you get a little more room for tertiary stats.
Since writing that, I've come up with a couple additional rules for this. First, if you take a half feat, then your two +1s have to also be different from whatever the half feat gave you. This means there's less incentive to take half feats that boost a primary or secondary stat, giving you greater freedom to explore other half feats.
Second is that we have to acknowledge that with only 5 ASIs (except fighter and rogue) and only being able to put at most +1 towards a stat each time, any stat below a 15 can never be maxed out. Maybe that's a feature, but sometimes something will happen during a campaign that causes your character to radically shift focus. Maybe your rogue finds religion, or your barbarian swears an oath of vengeance, or what have you. Point is, you might need to rapidly reorient your character's stats to match their new direction.
So the second rule change is that there is a cap, which starts at 15 at character creation (which, coincidentally, is the point buy maximum) and increases by 1 at every ASI (maxing out at 20 when you get the fifth ASI). For stats that are below this cap, you can double up for a +2 (but not a +3) so long is you don't exceed the cap. Any stat at or above the cap is limited to getting a +1 at each ASI. Do note that it's still possible to push a stat to 20 before 19th level, you just have to have that stat start higher than 15 and raise it consistently with every ASI. All this does is allow a lower stat to "catch up".
Now, I'm not saying this would be right for every table, because each table is different and some can be quite eccentric. But I will say that I think this is better than what we currently have, and would serve as a better default from which you can implement whatever houserules you need. Even if you don't want to use this specific iteration of the concept, I think most games would still be better off if they gave both an ASI and a feat at the same time.
With that, I think I've fixed all the glaring loopholes uncovered in the original thread. What do you think? Would you be interested in using this in your game? Can you see a way to improve it? Can you find a way to exploit it that I haven't caught yet? Is there a different iteration of this concept that you would use/are using? TBH, I'd be pretty excited if I got to use this as a player, as it would vastly open up my build options and allow a lot more character concepts to come online earlier.