Darksun

[MisterD]

With new anti-slave race and away from evil races
How will they do DARKSUN?

[Sigreid]

With new anti-slave race and away from evil races
How will they do DARKSUN?

If the trend holds, they'll put out a book with a few character options and virtually no setting information and call it a Dark Sun campaign.

[t209]

Consider that they changed it to Doomspace and Thri Keen seems to be armed with iron weapon and traveling in space (in fact, Athas is marked as no fly zone due to being too dang hellish and no magic for Spelljammer to operate in previous editions), probably going for “spiritual successor” or distant sequel (aka the awful meta plot that 4E tried to retcon).
Well, they can still work with no evil races…the thing is that all of them are pragmatic heroes or anti heroes.

[AttilatheYeon]

Just because they are doing away from evil races doesn't mean there wont be evil people around. In a world were everyone is at least problematic, I'm sure there will still be sorcerer kings and cannibal hobbits running around.

Course I also agree that it will be very light on actual setting details and mostly just have a few character ideas.

[LibraryOgre]

I will say, this is one place that having all the old setting materials available through Drivethru is a boon... if you want a lot of Dark Sun setting material, you can get it easily, and fairly cheaply.

"How to Dark Sun in 5e" can have subclasses and races and backgrounds... and a reference to the campaign setting for 2e and/or 4e.

[Naanomi]

Good Psionics and however they handle defiling/preserving is at least as much a barrier as the setting components

[Brookshw]

Consider that they changed it to Doomspace and Thri Keen seems to be armed with iron weapon and traveling in space (in fact, Athas is marked as no fly zone due to being too dang hellish and no magic for Spelljammer to operate in previous editions), probably going for “spiritual successor” or distant sequel (aka the awful meta plot that 4E tried to retcon).
Well, they can still work with no evil races…the thing is that all of them are pragmatic heroes or anti heroes.

What did 4e do to the setting? (Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

[Naanomi]

What did 4e do to the setting? (Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).
Killed the backstory by tying it all to their 'dawn war' stuff... Pushed elementals as the main generic enemy... Added a bunch of 4e races (genasi, tiefling, Eladrin elves) and significantly altered many established races (Kreen, half-giants, dray)... Messed with the unique cosmology by tying in the Feywild and Shadowfel... Partially rolled back the timeline but still made allusions to post Prism Pentad stuff occasionally... Made defiler/preserver distinction largely fluff (with some supporting feats and stuff)... Templar class became a warlock thing so lost healing...

[JackPhoenix]

With new anti-slave race and away from evil races
How will they do DARKSUN?

They won't. It's for the best, if you like Dark Sun, because the current WotC team insists on proving again and again they'll ruin anything they touch.

[Brookshw]

Killed the backstory by tying it all to their 'dawn war' stuff... Pushed elementals as the main generic enemy... Added a bunch of 4e races (genasi, tiefling, Eladrin elves) and significantly altered many established races (Kreen, half-giants, dray)... Messed with the unique cosmology by tying in the Feywild and Shadowfel... Partially rolled back the timeline but still made allusions to post Prism Pentad stuff occasionally... Made defiler/preserver distinction largely fluff (with some supporting feats and stuff)... Templar class became a warlock thing so lost healing...

I can see the templar stuff, but to the rest, the fu.......?

[Luccan]

Unless I missed an announcement or leak, I really don't think Darksun is going to happen

[LibraryOgre]

Unless I missed an announcement or leak, I really don't think Darksun is going to happen

Ironically for Athas, hope springs eternal. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Torath]

(Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).I fully agree with you here. The original setting set up all these super-powerful beings and opponents and said: Go, become powerful, and do something about these! Remake the face of Athas!

Then Troy Denning and the Revised setting said: Nevermind. We decided to have all these uber-cool, angsty NPCs do it all for you. You're welcome! Go back to the small stuff.

In general, I'm mostly okay with letting Rikus & Co take down Kalak, but I think they should all go down in the process. Maybe Agis could survive to head up the Council of Tyr, but the rest ought to remove themselves from the setting, so the PCs can shine.

I prefer to think of The Prism Pentad as an example of the kinds of things your PCs should get up to, rather than what actually happened.

[Naanomi]

I can see the templar stuff, but to the rest, the fu.......?
I noticed a general trend in 4e development to make everything (races, lore, mechanics) fit into the 4e established mould rather than make new things appropriate to the setting. It's how we got Astral Spelljammer (the astral being more central to the new cosmology), Dragonborn replacing every draconic race in every setting... and how we got primordial-tied Darksun backstory etc.

The end result was 4e wearing a Darksun costume rather than a 4e version of existing Darksun vibe/setting

[Brookshw]

I fully agree with you here. Troy had his characters do all the things you really wanted to have your characters do. I tend to view the Pentad as an example of the kinds of things your PCs should be able to pull off on Athas, rather than what actually happened.

In general, I'm mostly okay with letting Rikus & Co take down Kalak, but I think they should all go down in the process. Maybe Agis could survive to head up the Council of Tyr, but the rest ought to remove themselves from the setting, so the PCs can shine.

I didn't mind the Kalak takedown because it gives the a different starting point which provides variety to the types of games you can run in the setting, didn't much care one way or the other if Rikus & Co. survive, but don't care if they did. But killing Boris and a bunch of the Sorcerer Kings, and restoring rain? That was just writing out the hallmarks of the setting.

Though I do think that the surfer druids of the Lost Sea expansion remains one of my favorite things in D&D to this day.

[LibraryOgre]

(Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

You know what I think they should have done, with 30 years of hindsight?

Killing Kalak is the very last part of the last book of the Pentad.

So, you start with Rikus as a slave and introduce Sadira to the Veiled Alliance and Agis starts out as the typical spoiled noble who owns both of them. Your first book, the three of them bond, possibly with Tithain being part of their group... but then taking all of the credit.

Book Two is still a War with Urik.

Book three is foiling a Dragon Sacrifice (not killing Borys... just foiling the sacrifice)
Book four is expedition to the Ringing Mountains for an artifact that will help oppose Kalak
Book five is the death of Kalak.

You start the campaign setting THERE. Kalak is dead. You have a republic in the Tablelands. Other powers are orienting towards Tyr, to see what happens next.

[Brookshw]

You know what I think they should have done, with 30 years of hindsight?

Killing Kalak is the very last part of the last book of the Pentad.

So, you start with Rikus as a slave and introduce Sadira to the Veiled Alliance and Agis starts out as the typical spoiled noble who owns both of them. Your first book, the three of them bond, possibly with Tithain being part of their group... but then taking all of the credit.

Book Two is still a War with Urik.

Book three is foiling a Dragon Sacrifice (not killing Borys... just foiling the sacrifice)
Book four is expedition to the Ringing Mountains for an artifact that will help oppose Kalak
Book five is the death of Kalak.

You start the campaign setting THERE. Kalak is dead. You have a republic in the Tablelands. Other powers are orienting towards Tyr, to see what happens next.

I like the cut of your jib. That would have been much better than effectively nuking the premise and major conflicts of the setting.

[Sigreid]

My personal and uncharitable opinion is that anyone who has a setting they really like should pray that current WoTC ignores it. No good can come of this lot messing about with your favorite setting.

[LibraryOgre]

I like the cut of your jib. That would have been much better than effectively nuking the premise and major conflicts of the setting.

TBF, I think that should be the way to do most setting-defining fiction... don't write the story of the modules, write the story leading up to the modules.

I think Birthright may have eventually done that, but I can't remember the novel about Michael Roele disappearing.

[Naanomi]

As much as I love the Darksun setting, I'm not sure it would be as... Impactful... now as it once was. Turning all the Tolkien tropes on their head was really innovative at the time of release; but now most settings play with the bulk of the classic expectations to some degree; so the mass subversion just doesn't have the oomph that it once held

[PhantomSoul]

If the trend holds, they'll put out a book with a few character options and virtually no setting information and call it a Dark Sun campaign.

Honestly, this might even be too generous... you forgot to mention how astonishingly bland and disconnected from any interesting narrative/lore the character options would be!


They won't. It's for the best, if you like Dark Sun, because the current WotC team insists on proving again and again they'll ruin anything they touch.

Sounds about right.

[LibraryOgre]

As much as I love the Darksun setting, I'm not sure it would be as... Impactful... now as it once was. Turning all the Tolkien tropes on their head was really innovative at the time of release; but now most settings play with the bulk of the classic expectations to some degree; so the mass subversion just doesn't have the oomph that it once held

I mean, the dino-riding halflings of Eberron weren't exactly the cannibal halflings of Dark Sun, but they definitely shared some DNA.

[Khrysaes]

I mean, the dino-riding halflings of Eberron weren't exactly the cannibal halflings of Dark Sun, but they definitely shared some DNA.

They CAN be cannibal dino-riding halflings though.

[JadedDM]

As much as I love the Darksun setting, I'm not sure it would be as... Impactful... now as it once was. Turning all the Tolkien tropes on their head was really innovative at the time of release; but now most settings play with the bulk of the classic expectations to some degree; so the mass subversion just doesn't have the oomph that it once held

I've been thinking the same thing about Planescape. The main appeal was how wild and alien it was. Like, wow, Tieflings, Aasimar and Genasi! But those are just like, normal, now, in every setting. So I'm wondering how appealing 5E Planescape will be when it comes out.

[Brookshw]

TBF, I think that should be the way to do most setting-defining fiction... don't write the story of the modules, write the story leading up to the modules.

I think Birthright may have eventually done that, but I can't remember the novel about Michael Roele disappearing.

That's a big part of my disinterest in Dragonlance, and agreed on the proposed approach.

As to Birthright, the only setting I know less about is Red Steel, so I'm no expert, but I do recall a novel involving the Gorgon, and my recollection is that it seemed like it took place in the "live" setting

@JadedDM, my concern with PS at the moment is that for it to work we'd basically need a new Manual of the Planes, and based on how SJ gutted the setting to the point which calling it 'bare bones' is generous, it doesn't seem like we'd get anything meaty enough that you could work with it (unless you rely upon 2e content), probably get something about Sigil.

[t209]

What did 4e do to the setting? (Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).
To answer this, I meant Troy Denning one.

[Naanomi]

I've been thinking the same thing about Planescape. The main appeal was how wild and alien it was. Like, wow, Tieflings, Aasimar and Genasi! But those are just like, normal, now, in every setting. So I'm wondering how appealing 5E Planescape will be when it comes out.
It is probably more doable though... A Sigil based adventure book, a Manual of the Planes, a Planar Monster Manual... No need to create psionics or defiling or anything before implementation

Maybe it won't have the exotic feel of 2e Planescape, but it will still be a serviceable setting

[t209]

It is probably more doable though... A Sigil based adventure book, a Manual of the Planes, a Planar Monster Manual... No need to create psionics or defiling or anything before implementation

Maybe it won't have the exotic feel of 2e Planescape, but it will still be a serviceable setting

To be honest, I think Planescape is famous because of the videogame adaptation.
Not sure what else unique about it other than "multiverse hub" and OP's description (at least back when Tiefling and Aasimar were new before they became common place, especially the former).
ORRR...part of me had idea of handing it to Black Isles or InExile as "Fallout but Fantasy" (maybe even a cartoon mascot in UI for comedic relief) for exposure.

[Naanomi]

To be honest, I think Planescape is famous because of the videogame adaptation.
Not sure what else unique about it other than "multiverse hub" and OP's description
Planescape had a lot of charm as a setting, the expectation to run around places most settings just used as background pieces... Well implemented examples of meta-plot modules (Modron March most prominently, but also Tales of the Infinite Staircase and Dead Gods)... And perhaps most uniquely at the time: a big expectation on massive power level disparities between characters and the setting which demanded social and clever play; with level 1 yahoos sneaking their way through the hells or talking their way out of confrontation from a legion of fire mephits or the like

However I will also admit that my great personal love of the larger Great Wheel cosmology that was largely developed in Planescape material may also color my own preference for the setting

[t209]

Planescape had a lot of charm as a setting, the expectation to run around places most settings just used as background pieces... Well implemented examples of meta-plot modules (Modron March most prominently, but also Tales of the Infinite Staircase and Dead Gods)... And perhaps most uniquely at the time: a big expectation on massive power level disparities between characters and the setting which demanded social and clever play; with level 1 yahoos sneaking their way through the hells or talking their way out of confrontation from a legion of fire mephits or the like

However I will also admit that my great personal love of the larger Great Wheel cosmology that was largely developed in Planescape material may also color my own preference for the setting
Well, I guess this is how much basing my views from the videogame version, even if it's well-made (mostly it's memorable characters, environment design, and storyline), tends to leave out.

[LibraryOgre]

OTOH, I think planetouched, and especially genasi, really WORK for Dark Sun. Like, get rid of most of the demi-humans, replace them with genasi. Elves? Air genasi. Dwarves? Earth genasi. Replace half-elves with fire genasi... weirdos who live out in the desert, rather than mixing with "decent people". Water genasi? Long dead, killed in the Cleansing Wars, along with many of the demi-humans. Tieflings, if they were 2e-style randoms? Those work great as tower mutants. For story reasons, you keep halflings and thri-kreen.

[Slipjig]

When it comes to Evil Races, I always thought that Athas kind of existed outside the normal alignment spectrum. I mean, you had Capital-E evil villains, but surviving is such a challenge that very few people would make the cutoff for Neutral, let alone Good in any other setting.

[LibraryOgre]

When it comes to Evil Races, I always thought that Athas kind of existed outside the normal alignment spectrum. I mean, you had Capital-E evil villains, but surviving is such a challenge that very few people would make the cutoff for Neutral, let alone Good in any other setting.

There were a few in Athas, but the setting didn't get the development that would have eventually made them PCs... stuff like the gith, for example.

[Naanomi]

There were a few in Athas, but the setting didn't get the development that would have eventually made them PCs... stuff like the gith, for example.
The Gith there were pretty physically degenerate and not particularly intelligent

[LibraryOgre]

The Gith there were pretty physically degenerate and not particularly intelligent

Typical gith had average intelligence, according to their stat block. Belogi aren't that bright. And there's the Braxat, who are practically dragons themselves (huge, 10 HD, breath weapon). All have a typical alignment in evil; belogi and braxat are explicitly sophont-eaters.

[Lord Torath]

*snip*, but surviving is such a challenge that very few people would make the cutoff for Neutral, let alone Good in any other setting.I've heard this many times, but it's really not supported by the text (going by the original setting from 2E AD&D). It literally has suggestions for how the various alignments will behave if lost in the desert with limited supplies. Good characters generally favor giving water to everyone while evil characters will focus on getting the most for themselves and their friends (if any).

The world of Dark Sun is a terrible place, yes. But that just means that everywhere you look there's an opportunity to do something Good and make things better. Paladins aren't an allowed class on Athas, but if one somehow found itself there, it would probably love it. So much good to do, and so many BBEGs to oppose.

[Slipjig]

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of, "everything is so much darker there that the alignment cutoffs are further down the moral spectrum". For example, I'd feel perfectly comfortable defaulting to anybody who owned slaves in Forgotten Realms or Krynn as being Evil, but it's standard behavior in Athas.

[Naanomi]

Typical gith had average intelligence, according to their stat block
Which Darksun statblock? Were they a 4e thing (it isn't my area of strength lorewise)?

[awa]

, but if one somehow found itself there, it would probably love it. So much good to do, and so many BBEGs to oppose.

Except athas has lots of big bads you simply can't oppose, paladins tend not to like that. Further much of the evil like slavery is in a position where their is simply nothing you can do about it.

starvation and thirst are nasty in that they can easily create a Sophie choice where no amount of courage can break the cold hard reality of how many people can live for how long on the available water.

now I fully expect a 5th edition version if one is ever made to have "fixed" this, but in old school darksun no ones having fun. (except surfing druids I guess) Wow thinking about it, its amazing how appealing the initial concept was and how unappealing everything that came after it was.

[LibraryOgre]

Which Darksun statblock? Were they a 4e thing (it isn't my area of strength lorewise)?

The ones in the original 2e boxed set. They're "Average". Same as shows up in their Monstrous Manual entry. Now, that's a fair bit dumber than standard gith (pirate Gith are Exceptional, Githyanki and Githzerai are Exceptional to Genius), but they're about on par with the average human.


Except athas has lots of big bads you simply can't, oppose paladins tend not to like that. Further much of the evil like slavery is in a position where their is simply nothing you can do about it.


You can oppose them just fine... you just can't march up to them and slap them with a gauntlet to start a fight. Lots of folks are married to the paladin being the knight in shining armor, but a Dark Sun paladin wouldn't be that any more than a wizard would be wearing a heavy robe and a pointy hat.

[Lord Torath]

Except athas has lots of big bads you simply can't, oppose paladins tend not to like that. Further much of the evil like slavery is in a position where their is simply nothing you can do about it.Can your PC end slavery at character creation? No. Can they free a few slaves? Certainly! As they grow in power, can they aid and/or fund trading houses like Wavir that oppose the slave trade? You betcha! Can you kill a sorcerer king and end slavery in a particular city? If the NPCs can do it (spoiler alert: they did), you should be able to, too!

If being a paladin in your campaign (and now I'm drifting WAAAY off topic) means you must instantly attempt to thwart every evil act you see - regardless of the threat to your own life - or fall, then yes, any paladin who finds themself on Athas (or any other campaign, really) would be very short-lived. If they are allowed to value their own life (you can't thwart evil if you're dead) and only intervene when there is some chance of success, then a paladin should have no more trouble than any other PC on Athas. They might be hindered by not having a psionic wild talent, or the fact that their heavy metal armor is something of a heat-stroke factory, or that they rolled stats on 3d6 while the natives get 5d4, and possibly the fact that they're exceedingly unlikely to find a Holy Avenger, but they should still do fine.

(And now I've probably derailed the thread with a discussion on what it means to be a paladin. Can we move that discussion to a different thread?)

The original setting (before they updated it to account for the Prism Pentad) was all about how your PCs would change the face of Athas as they grew in power. Warriors would raise armies, wizards could cast spells to create mountain ranges or forests, clerics could channel the very forces of nature. If you made it your goal to end the slave trade, you should be able to eventually achieve it. Eliminating slavery completely is a much tougher nut to crack (we're still working on that in the real world, and I'll not go further than that), but you can certainly deal it a severe blow.

[LibraryOgre]

Man, now I'm picturing Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame", but instead of landing in Generic Fantasy Land, they wound up on Athas.

[awa]

Can your PC end slavery at character creation? No. Can they free a few slaves? Certainly! As they grow in power, can they aid and/or fund trading houses like Wavir that oppose the slave trade? You betcha! Can you kill a sorcerer king and end slavery in a particular city? If the NPCs can do it (spoiler alert: they did), you should be able to, too!

If being a paladin in your campaign (and now I'm drifting WAAAY off topic) means you must instantly attempt to thwart every evil act you see - regardless of the threat to your own life - or fall, then yes, any paladin who finds themself on Athas (or any other campaign, really) would be very short-lived. If they are allowed to value their own life (you can't thwart evil if you're dead) and only intervene when there is some chance of success, then a paladin should have no more trouble than any other PC on Athas. They might be hindered by not having a psionic wild talent, or the fact that their heavy metal armor is something of a heat-stroke factory, or that they rolled stats on 3d6 while the natives get 5d4, and possibly the fact that they're exceedingly unlikely to find a Holy Avenger, but they should still do fine.

(And now I've probably derailed the thread with a discussion on what it means to be a paladin. Can we move that discussion to a different thread?)

The original setting (before they updated it to account for the Prism Pentad) was all about how your PCs would change the face of Athas as they grew in power. Warriors would raise armies, wizards could cast spells to create mountain ranges or forests, clerics could channel the very forces of nature. If you made it your goal to end the slave trade, you should be able to eventually achieve it. Eliminating slavery completely is a much tougher nut to crack (we're still working on that in the real world, and I'll not go further than that), but you can certainly deal it a severe blow.



You can oppose them just fine... you just can't march up to them and slap them with a gauntlet to start a fight. Lots of folks are married to the paladin being the knight in shining armor, but a Dark Sun paladin wouldn't be that any more than a wizard would be wearing a heavy robe and a pointy hat.

The comment was that paladins would love being in athas which implies the shinning knight riding up and throwing down, not a sneaky bide your time playing the long game. Some kind of rogue type would be more effective at ending the evils of the setting than a more direct head on confrontation.

[Psyren]

OTOH, I think planetouched, and especially genasi, really WORK for Dark Sun. Like, get rid of most of the demi-humans, replace them with genasi. Elves? Air genasi. Dwarves? Earth genasi. Replace half-elves with fire genasi... weirdos who live out in the desert, rather than mixing with "decent people". Water genasi? Long dead, killed in the Cleansing Wars, along with many of the demi-humans. Tieflings, if they were 2e-style randoms? Those work great as tower mutants. For story reasons, you keep halflings and thri-kreen.

Rather than kill them off, maybe Athas Water Genasi could be corrupted in some way? Like they're all infused with sludge or acid or some other defilement (they get the acid splash cantrip now after all) and "pure" water genasi are pretty much nowhere to be found. Athas Water Genasi would get a different racial spell instead of create water, e.g. Armor of Agathys, Grease, or Fog Cloud.

[Brookshw]

Rather than kill them off, maybe Athas Water Genasi could be corrupted in some way? Like they're all infused with sludge or acid or some other defilement (they get the acid splash cantrip now after all) and "pure" water genasi are pretty much nowhere to be found. Athas Water Genasi would get a different racial spell instead of create water, e.g. Armor of Agathys, Grease, or Fog Cloud.

Silt would be appropriate, though feels kinda earth gensai-ish. Alternatively, there is still a sea in Athas, could be a last bastion for them.

[Lord Torath]

2E Dark Sun had the primary elemental clerics - Earth, Air, Fire, and Water - dedicated to preserving and restoring Athas. The para-elemental clerics - Rain, Silt, Sun (dedicated to removing anything that provides shade), and Magma - were generally dedicated to promoting their own para-element at the expense of Athas - Rain being the only one that was likely to ally with the primary elements instead.

Could there be para-elemental genesai?

[Psyren]

2E Dark Sun had the primary elemental clerics - Earth, Air, Fire, and Water - dedicated to preserving and restoring Athas. The para-elemental clerics - Rain, Silt, Sun (dedicated to removing anything that provides shade), and Magma - were generally dedicated to promoting their own para-element at the expense of Athas - Rain being the only one that was likely to ally with the primary elements instead.

Could there be para-elemental genesai?

1DD's half-breed rules could do that. Especially if they follow my suggestion of creating a hybrid ancestry feat :smalltongue:

[Sigreid]

1DD's half-breed rules could do that. Especially if they follow my suggestion of creating a hybrid ancestry feat :smalltongue:

Not sure you need to go that far. I'm not that familiar with the setting, but I dont see why a rain gensi cant just be a water gensi.

[Psyren]

Not sure you need to go that far. I'm not that familiar with the setting, but I dont see why a rain gensi cant just be a water gensi.

Sure, they could be, but then you're just elemental rather than paraelemental.

Similarly - would Magma be Fire, or Earth?

[PhantomSoul]

Sure, they could be, but then you're just elemental rather than paraelemental.

Similarly - would Magma be Fire, or Earth?

I had to google to see Rain was actually a Paraelement at all in Athas, with a somewhat surprising Air+Water (rather than just Water). It might be that Sigreid has the same intuition as I do!

[t209]

I had to google to see Rain was actually a Paraelement at all in Athas, with a somewhat surprising Air+Water (rather than just Water). It might be that Sigreid has the same intuition as I do!
There could be moisture…assuming if Athas have moisture gathering Ala Star Wars and Dune.

[Sigreid]

I had to google to see Rain was actually a Paraelement at all in Athas, with a somewhat surprising Air+Water (rather than just Water). It might be that Sigreid has the same intuition as I do!

Maybe some would have a greater affinity for one part over the other? So a rain gensi might be water or air, for example. Or maybe a DM that wants them to be their own thing swaps some stuff out to make a unique thing without raising the power.

[Person_Man]

I think WotC is hesitant to publish anything that would require new base classes, because they would inevitably migrate into other non-Dark Sun games even where it made no mechanical sense.

A possible fix for this is to give all non-cantrip spells cast on Athas the expensive material component - of water. But when cast on Athas, they also get a bonus effect. (Maybe something like metamagic). Then add some subclasses, races, feats, etc that fit the setting.

So you don’t have to rewrite everything in the base rules. Just add to them. (And remove a few spells, like Create Water).

[LibraryOgre]

I think most of Dark Sun is doable with the game as written, though I do think you'd need to restrict some things... use a limited slate of subclasses, and setting-specific races.

For example, I'd either create a Gladiator subclass for fighters, or just reuse the champion. Clerics? Make some elemental and para-elemental domains. Wizards? Schools of Defiling, Preserving, Shadow, etc. (though, personally, I prefer to keep Defiling/Preserving the same type of spellcasting, but with a clear advantage for defiling). Sorcerers can have some psionic-themed subclasses (I think sorcerer is the best fit for psionics in the current game, though when making my own, I used Warlock as a chassis, instead).

Races? You might have to make some new stuff... some things work as subraces, some things don't.

[Brookshw]

I think most of Dark Sun is doable with the game as written, though I do think you'd need to restrict some things... use a limited slate of subclasses, and setting-specific races.

For example, I'd either create a Gladiator subclass for fighters, or just reuse the champion. Clerics? Make some elemental and para-elemental domains. Wizards? Schools of Defiling, Preserving, Shadow, etc. (though, personally, I prefer to keep Defiling/Preserving the same type of spellcasting, but with a clear advantage for defiling). Sorcerers can have some psionic-themed subclasses (I think sorcerer is the best fit for psionics in the current game, though when making my own, I used Warlock as a chassis, instead).

Races? You might have to make some new stuff... some things work as subraces, some things don't.

I suppose they could give everyone a free magic initiate style fear if they wanted to keep psionics for everyone, but would feel kinda nda weird if it was open options for what to pick, maybe a specified list to choose from (or just drop it entirely).

[LibraryOgre]

I suppose they could give everyone a free magic initiate style fear if they wanted to keep psionics for everyone, but would feel kinda nda weird if it was open options for what to pick, maybe a specified list to choose from (or just drop it entirely).

So, my beginning 5e Psionicist-on-warlock-chassis class (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O1yT5oJowLrLqeZvt38nrQ2cVrJjaL4SvCAR7jCaPRI/edit?usp=sharing) opened up some ways to address this.

First of all, there were three different Ways... Psion (Int-based), Soulknife (Wis-based), and Wilder (Cha-based), which more or less emulate a warlock's pact. Then they have Arts, which are the equivalent of Invocations. And there's lastly Disciplines, which are the equivalent of warlock pacts; they start with their Way bonus, however, and pick up their Discipline bonus at 3rd level (instead of Pact gift at 3rd and Patron gifts at 1).

Rather than give everyone Magic Initiate, I'd be more inclined to give them a psionic devotion (cantrip) like a tool proficiency, using the attribute of their choice (do they manifest like a Psion, a Soulknife, or a Wilder? The choice is more or less irrelevant, except for the attribute used)

[Sigreid]

I think WotC is hesitant to publish anything that would require new base classes, because they would inevitably migrate into other non-Dark Sun games even where it made no mechanical sense.

A possible fix for this is to give all non-cantrip spells cast on Athas the expensive material component - of water. But when cast on Athas, they also get a bonus effect. (Maybe something like metamagic). Then add some subclasses, races, feats, etc that fit the setting.

So you don’t have to rewrite everything in the base rules. Just add to them. (And remove a few spells, like Create Water).

That's silly of them if it's true. Tables can always decide what they want to use for a given campaign.

[PhantomSoul]

That's silly of them if it's true. Tables can always decide what they want to use for a given campaign.

And they've cared absolutely in no way whatsoever about system, setting or world integrity at this point, so why start just for psionics as a base class?

[Telok]

And they've cared absolutely in no way whatsoever about system, setting or world integrity at this point, so why start just for psionics as a base class?

Mostly because new subsystems are apparently forbidden. If it isn't a magic spell or a battlemaster move it isn't happening. And a psi system where wizards are casting all the "psychic powers" with spell slots will go over like a flaming bag of crap.

Sure, you could print four dozen psi spells, most of which are wizard spells with components filed off, and limit it to just those new classes. Thats easy page count padding they don't have to pay someone to write setting stuff for or rules for desert survival. Could even be blatant and make the psychic a wizard subclass. Not gonna help the mountain of negative reviews for casting psychic spells from regular spell slots.

[Psyren]

And a psi system where wizards are casting all the "psychic powers" with spell slots will go over like a flaming bag of crap.

Uh, why? Pathfinder did it (twice even) and the sky hasn't fallen. Points have never been required to make magic feel psychic, spell slots work fine.

[PhantomSoul]

Uh, why? Pathfinder did it (twice even) and the sky hasn't fallen. Points have never been required to make magic feel psychic, spell slots work fine.

There are already plenty of complaints (by me included, to be open about it) that 5e's pretty mechanically bland from magic being so prevalent and so same-y. Adding what feels like just another freaking spellcaster when the whole point (to me and many on the forum) is partly to have something that's supposed to be different just isn't meeting the brief or the goal.

[Psyren]

There are already plenty of complaints (by me included, to be open about it) that 5e's pretty mechanically bland from magic being so prevalent and so same-y. Adding what feels like just another freaking spellcaster when the whole point (to me and many on the forum) is partly to have something that's supposed to be different just isn't meeting the brief or the goal.

You're not adding "another freaking spellcaster." Psionics in 5e are componentless magic. You don't need a new class for that. Just make some Dark Sun-specific backgrounds that remove the components from their casting and add a drawback of some kind.

[Telok]

Uh, why? Pathfinder did it (twice even) and the sky hasn't fallen. Points have never been required to make magic feel psychic, spell slots work fine.

Why are you assuming a points system of some sort? You have an axe to grind with point systems? Frankly, "mr. wizard with different spells" is lazy & overdone & lots of us don't think it plays like anyhing but another wizardy D&D type caster. But don't worry! Lazy hack jobs are all the rage. You'll get your "another generic wizard subclass casting the same old top 20 wizard spells" psychic if you see anything DS. Because its easy and creating actually new subsystems aren't in the forecast. Its magic spells or nothing.

[Psyren]

Why are you assuming a points system of some sort? You have an axe to grind with point systems?

No, it was just one example of an alternative. My main point is that there's nothing inherently wrong with using the existing framework of spell slots to represent psionics.


Frankly, "mr. wizard with different spells" is lazy & overdone & lots of us don't think it plays like anyhing but another wizardy D&D type caster. But don't worry! Lazy hack jobs are all the rage. You'll get your "another generic wizard subclass casting the same old top 20 wizard spells" psychic if you see anything DS. Because its easy and creating actually new subsystems aren't in the forecast. Its magic spells or nothing.

Subsystems and alternate resources are novel, but novelty alone is not enough, especially when they often bring other downsides with them - for example, added complexity/learning curve, arguments about transparency, incompatibility with other rules elements like racial spells and upcasting etc. I'm not saying they can't make new subsystems or resource schema, but the reason for doing so can't simply wanting to be different or considering slots to be somehow "boring" - there needs to be a great deal more thought behind it than that.

[Telok]

arguments about transparency, incompatibility with other rules elements like racial spells and upcasting etc.

Pfft. We hit that like five times just tonight with regular 1st to 6th level spells and uncommon magic items. Added three more rulings we have to write down & remember or keep making over again. Just tonight. 5e is already rife with that ****. Anything they do will just add to that unless they forego adding any new spells, items, races, or subclasses. And that won't happen because those and adventure modules are all they really write anymore.

A new subsystem like you think of won't make a difference unless they make a total "natural engrish" dumpster fire... which given their track record they well could.

[Psyren]

Pfft. We hit that like five times just tonight with regular 1st to 6th level spells and uncommon magic items. Added three more rulings we have to write down & remember or keep making over again. Just tonight. 5e is already rife with that ****. Anything they do will just add to that unless they forego adding any new spells, items, races, or subclasses. And that won't happen because those and adventure modules are all they really write anymore.

A new subsystem like you think of won't make a difference unless they make a total "natural engrish" dumpster fire... which given their track record they well could.

So you... have no faith that they could do this well, and are totally disregarding any potential downsides, but you want them to anyway?

[t209]

http://www.nerdsandscoundrels.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/thri-kreen-5e.jpg
So keep in mind that they are starfaring now and armed with iron weapons...yeah, I think they might be tweaking it or renaming it as "Doom Planet: Spiritual Sucessor to Athas".

[Telok]

So you... have no faith that they could do this well, and are totally disregarding any potential downsides, but you want them to anyway?

No. You're assuming things again. You're mostly wrong.

That I have basically no faith in their rules writing is correct. That people generally don't enjoy things like giving them the same old bull with a palette swap from wands to crystals and acting & pricing as though it was some fantastic & perfect implementation is (I believe) not an unsupported statement.... and ya know, just snip the rest.

That I have basically no faith in their rules writing is correct. After Spelljammer I'm willing to believe they're happy to put out a minimum effort effort, no detail, almost-setting with an adventure and charge premiums for it. Without some evidence they'll do more for DS I'm expecting about the same.

[Psyren]

No. You're assuming things again. You're mostly wrong.

That I have basically no faith in their rules writing is correct. That people generally don't enjoy things like giving them the same old bull with a palette swap from wands to crystals and acting & pricing as though it was some fantastic & perfect implementation is (I believe) not an unsupported statement.... and ya know, just snip the rest.

That I have basically no faith in their rules writing is correct. After Spelljammer I'm willing to believe they're happy to put out a minimum effort effort, no detail, almost-setting with an adventure and charge premiums for it. Without some evidence they'll do more for DS I'm expecting about the same.

So then, shouldn't you be happy they're not trying for a new subsystem here if you think they're doomed to phone it in?

If nothing else, it would mean that DS remains ripe territory for more dedicated fans to do their own version on DMsG or the like.

[Waterdeep Merch]

So then, shouldn't you be happy they're not trying for a new subsystem here if you think they're doomed to phone it in?

If nothing else, it would mean that DS remains ripe territory for more dedicated fans to do their own version on DMsG or the like.

As someone that loves the third party community and felt highly disappointed by the 5e Spelljammer setting, I'd like to especially talk up fan modules. SJ (as well as Strixhaven and Ravenloft to a lesser extent) has relegated any future purchase of official 5e settings to a faint question mark, in part because I can very easily get my hands on whatever I'd want out of them on the cheap with a quick DM's Guild search, with perhaps a fast google for something particular that someone down some ancient corridor of the internet has put together for my exact desire, and I have never failed to find these things.

I found a conversion guide for Dark Sun to 5e on a whim in seconds. One that, at a glance, I doubt Wizards would manage to eclipse if they did their own, purely because they're a business and catering to a lowest common denominator instead of old school fans (and as much as I might hate that, it's the right answer if they want sales).

[JackPhoenix]

http://www.nerdsandscoundrels.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/thri-kreen-5e.jpg
So keep in mind that they are starfaring now and armed with iron weapons...yeah, I think they might be tweaking it or renaming it as "Doom Planet: Spiritual Sucessor to Athas".

You know thri-kreen aren't exclusive to Athas, right? Haven't been for a while.

[Psyren]

I found a conversion guide for Dark Sun to 5e on a whim in seconds. One that, at a glance, I doubt Wizards would manage to eclipse if they did their own, purely because they're a business and catering to a lowest common denominator instead of old school fans (and as much as I might hate that, it's the right answer if they want sales).

Out of curiosity, what's the name, and how did they handle some of the core setting elements like water scarcity, defiling/preserving, and psionics instead of magic?

[Lord Torath]

You know thri-kreen aren't exclusive to Athas, right? Haven't been for a while.In fact, they were first found in 1E AD&D - I want to say Forgotten Realms, but I don't recall for certain. Their first appearance I'm fairly certain was on a monster card, but they also appeared in the Monster Manual II.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Out of curiosity, what's the name, and how did they handle some of the core setting elements like water scarcity, defiling/preserving, and psionics instead of magic?

Literally just called "Dark Sun Player's Guide 5th Edition D&D", found over on GM Binder. They mostly used existing survival rules for food and water, just with harsher DC's and results. For Psionics, they designed a full class with subclasses that mostly works like a stripped down and focused version of the Mystic (reined in enough that, at a glance, it appears to solve the balance and bloat issues Wizards couldn't figure out rather nicely). Defiling is an option any arcane caster can use to apply a metamagic to any non-cantrip at the cost of building up defiling points and ruining the surrounding land (with a limit to how much any given terrain can be defiled before it's a barren rock), which carries a bevy of ongoing negatives and a whole system to remove it. Preserver wizards don't get anything special, but druids have a few special preserver spells.

It's pretty close to what I'd want myself, really. I'd probably just enforce stronger penalties to all arcane magic and call it a day, but I can see why others wouldn't want to do that.

[t209]

In fact, they were first found in 1E AD&D - I want to say Forgotten Realms, but I don't recall for certain. Their first appearance I'm fairly certain was on a monster card, but they also appeared in the Monster Manual II.


You know thri-kreen aren't exclusive to Athas, right? Haven't been for a while.

Sorry about that.
Though consider that they had Athas named right before changing to Doom space, so just speculation but probably didn't know much besides it being iconic race of Dark Sun.

[Naanomi]

Mul is probably the most exclusively Athasian race out there; but yes Thri-Kreen, Half-Giants, aarakocra, and Pterran are all pretty iconic.

Kreen empire was a big fixture in spelljammer as well though

[LibraryOgre]

Mul is probably the most exclusively Athasian race out there; but yes Thri-Kreen, Half-Giants, aarakocra, and Pterran are all pretty iconic.

Kreen empire was a big fixture in spelljammer as well though

I would argue with the pterran being iconic... they're just kinda there, if you want them to be, IMO. The tarek were more iconic, being on the cover of the first book, and they didn't get a write-up until the second Monstrous Compendium.

As for points based v. slot based? There's a reason my first version of psionicists were a sorcerer power source. Give them the ability to convert SP to slots for free, and replace their slots with sorcery points, and you've got a workable psionicist class with a points over slots design, largely similar to 3.5's XPH. Tailor their spell list and you can go from there.

[Psyren]

Literally just called "Dark Sun Player's Guide 5th Edition D&D", found over on GM Binder. They mostly used existing survival rules for food and water, just with harsher DC's and results. For Psionics, they designed a full class with subclasses that mostly works like a stripped down and focused version of the Mystic (reined in enough that, at a glance, it appears to solve the balance and bloat issues Wizards couldn't figure out rather nicely). Defiling is an option any arcane caster can use to apply a metamagic to any non-cantrip at the cost of building up defiling points and ruining the surrounding land (with a limit to how much any given terrain can be defiled before it's a barren rock), which carries a bevy of ongoing negatives and a whole system to remove it. Preserver wizards don't get anything special, but druids have a few special preserver spells.

It's pretty close to what I'd want myself, really. I'd probably just enforce stronger penalties to all arcane magic and call it a day, but I can see why others wouldn't want to do that.

Sounds interesting. Is that Mystic the only psionic class? (I mean, I guess you could stick Psi Warriors and Soulknives in as well.)


Mul is probably the most exclusively Athasian race out there; but yes Thri-Kreen, Half-Giants, aarakocra, and Pterran are all pretty iconic.

Kreen empire was a big fixture in spelljammer as well though

1DD looks like it's going to have playable Mul via the half-breed rules.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Sounds interesting. Is that Mystic the only psionic class? (I mean, I guess you could stick Psi Warriors and Soulknives in as well.)

Yep, just the Psion, with tweaked versions of all of the Mystic's old subclasses (six total). Soul Knife is one of the subclasses, though I'd argue the current rogue subclass for it is good enough as-is (especially in a proper Dark Sun game where basic weapons are scarce enough that having an on-demand magic weapon should be a huge advantage). The psychometabolism subclass is essentially a psi warrior, being based on the Immortal subclass of the Mystic. This one is a bit more lucrative than Tasha's fighter subclass for those that want to lean more into the psionic aspect than the official one does.

This all reminds me of how bummed I was that they got rid of the Mystic rather than try to streamline it. I might seriously consider this variant for my own games, looking at it. Need to consider the implications more in depth.