Expertise in a tool vs Cantrip

[Rukelnikov]

So I was thinking, what is "more powerful" expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency, or a cantrip?

In terms of the avenues of play each brings to the character, I think the cantrip far surpasses expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency. However from a narrative point, the expertise in tools is much more likely to come up and be regarded as part of the character, unless the cantrip is central to the character or used continuously (EB, Bladetrip, Minor Illusion as common examples of this happening)

So, whats your opinion? Is a cantrip "worth" about the same as exp in a tool? Is it more? Less?

[OldTrees1]

In general I suspect the cantrip is more valuable because the first 2-3 cantrips are valuable at will abilities that will be used frequently. Expertise in a tool depends on how frequently the tool is used.


For Dun the Dungeon Tour Guide, expertise in thieves tools was core to their profession. However they would gladly take Minor Illusion before any other tool expertise.

[elyktsorb]

Ye, there are certain tools where having expertise in them is likely crucial to reliably using them. Such as Thieves tools.

I can't really think of many others that I would take over a cantrip tho.

Having Expertise with a Poisoner's Kit is basically required to consistently make poisons especially without hurting yourself. The Poisoner feat kind of negates this a bit, and poisons are kind of 'eh' as well. If I was super invested in trying to use poison's, than expertise in this would be better than a cantrip to me.

Navigator's Tools for seafaring campaigns might be worth it.

Forgery Kit is probably one where you really want expertise if you plan on using it constantly.
Same with a Disguise Kit.

Maybe Herbalism Kit.

Unless I was actively building a character towards a specific direction that involved the use of said tool, I'd probably take a cantrip every time, unless my choice of cantrips sucks somehow.

A cantrip is probably worth more than expertise in a tool.

[Bigmouth]

I am most likely an outlier, but in my experience all the tool proficiencies are rather worthless in a standard campaign with the sole exception of Thieves Tools. elyktsorb points out a few others that might be useful, but do they really need expertise? If the recent playtest goes live as written, I can see entire parties where every character has thieves tool proficiency...since no other tool is actually useful to someone who didn't build a concept around that tool. Cantrip all the way.

[LudicSavant]

So I was thinking, what is "more powerful" expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency, or a cantrip?

In terms of the avenues of play each brings to the character, I think the cantrip far surpasses expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency. However from a narrative point, the expertise in tools is much more likely to come up and be regarded as part of the character, unless the cantrip is central to the character or used continuously (EB, Bladetrip, Minor Illusion as common examples of this happening)

So, whats your opinion? Is a cantrip "worth" about the same as exp in a tool? Is it more? Less?

Assuming that the cantrip can be any cantrip, and the tool proficiency can be any tool proficiency, then I'd lean strongly towards cantrip's better, more often than not. Skill checks aren't that potent in 5e compared to some other systems (yes, even thieves' tools and the like), and besides, Guidance is a cantrip.

[stoutstien]

Cantrips are better but I'd take the tools 90% of the time.

[BoutsofInsanity]

So I was thinking, what is "more powerful" expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency, or a cantrip?

In terms of the avenues of play each brings to the character, I think the cantrip far surpasses expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency. However from a narrative point, the expertise in tools is much more likely to come up and be regarded as part of the character, unless the cantrip is central to the character or used continuously (EB, Bladetrip, Minor Illusion as common examples of this happening)

So, whats your opinion? Is a cantrip "worth" about the same as exp in a tool? Is it more? Less?

Depends on the tool.

Cartography
Navigation Tools
Thieves Tools


I use these all the time, and the thieves tools are underrated with getting expertise.

[Thrudd]

The problem is, tool use, and ability checks/skill checks in general are only as useful as the DM allows them to be, except in a few specific situations (athletics/acrobatics for grappling and shoving, climbing, falling, etc). I mean, even thieves tools depend entirely on whether the DM likes to use traps and locks- it's entirely possible that some DMs will have very little use for those. Cantrips have specific effects dictated by the book, and most of them are useful in combat, which is pretty much the only situation that's guaranteed to be in any given game. So anything you can use in combat is going to be universally useful regardless of your DM. Some DMs will run games where tools and skills will be just as relevant as combat abilities, others won't. Know your DM.

[Talamare]

A cantrip is probably worth about 5 to 10 points
A tool expertise is probably worth about 0 to 3 points

[Asmotherion]

Depends on what you want to accomplish, but generally I believe a Cantrip to be more valuable.

[LudicSavant]

The problem is, tool use, and ability checks/skill checks in general are only as useful as the DM allows them to be, except in a few specific situations (athletics/acrobatics for grappling and shoving, climbing, falling, etc). I mean, even thieves tools depend entirely on whether the DM likes to use traps and locks- it's entirely possible that some DMs will have very little use for those. Cantrips have specific effects dictated by the book, and most of them are useful in combat, which is pretty much the only situation that's guaranteed to be in any given game. So anything you can use in combat is going to be universally useful regardless of your DM. Some DMs will run games where tools and skills will be just as relevant as combat abilities, others won't. Know your DM.

Not only that, but even if you're in a game with lots of locks and traps, there are more ways to deal with those than just making a Thieves' Tools check.

[Anonymouswizard]

The issue is really that Tools are situational. If they come up you'll be glad to have them, but most cantrips are broader in application. Even Thieves' Tools suffer from this, they're just much more likely to come up in an adventure.

Most skills are broader too. Playing the lute and lyre is two proficiencies, but it's only one to be a capable dancer and orator. Tool proficiencies are this weird part is the system that hews closer to 3.X levels of specificity.

D&D's magic system works, it's skill system has never quite been there. Maybe it's because 'skillmonkey' is still considered a valid character type, so it's assumed that most players won't engage with it. Maybe it's because it's always contained assumptions that players or adventure design doesn't follow (3.X and the fact that most characters aren't meant to keep all their skills at max). But the end result is that improvements with the working subsystem tend to be valued more than improvements within the questionable subsystem.

[Psyren]

In a vacuum I'd probably take the cantrip, especially if I/the party don't have the major utility ones like Minor Illusion, Guidance, Prestidigitation or Message covered.

It also depends on the character I'm playing. Artificers for example get expertise in all their tools, but are fairly cantrip-starved, especially Artillerists and Alchemists who use cantrips as their primary sustained offense.

If I have enough cantrips or they don't fit the character though I'd happily pick up the tool.

[LibraryOgre]

So I was thinking, what is "more powerful" expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency, or a cantrip?

In terms of the avenues of play each brings to the character, I think the cantrip far surpasses expertise in a tool in which you already have proficiency. However from a narrative point, the expertise in tools is much more likely to come up and be regarded as part of the character, unless the cantrip is central to the character or used continuously (EB, Bladetrip, Minor Illusion as common examples of this happening)

So, whats your opinion? Is a cantrip "worth" about the same as exp in a tool? Is it more? Less?

While somewhat dependent, I think Guidance is probably as useful as expertise for a good chunk of the game... at a d4, it's a 75% chance to be equal to expertise when you have a +2 prof, and a 50% chance to be better. At a +3, it's 50/50, and 25% to equal expertise when you've got a +4. But it also applies to pretty much anything you can take at least 2 actions on, so it's not just "possibly equal to expertise", it's "possibly equal to proficiency" in everything.

It would vary for other cantrips, but I'm a big fan of Guidance, to where I'm pretty sure it's too good.

[Rukelnikov]

Thanks everyone, and yeah, its mostly what I expected.

I choose expertise in a tool in which you already have rpoficiency, because Rune Kinghts gain that via Fire Rune, and because in a vacuum I think it's the least impactful skill related boon a character can get (I don't consider language "proficiencies" since they almost never get involved in rolls).

Skill Proficiency >=* Skill Expertise > Tool Proficiency > Tool Expertise

* First Expertise may be more important than second skill proficiency, and even 2nd Exp may be more important then 3rd skill prof, but in general I think a new skill beats upgrading from Prof to Exp.

[Chronos]

Another useful point of comparison is Mending. One of the major uses of tools in general is fixing things... but one cantrip can let you reliably fix anything (as long as it's only broken in one place).

And even at that, Mending is one of the less-often-taken cantrips.

[animorte]

Completely depends on the cantrip. If you get to choose your cantrip, then great. Some of them are invaluable, almost always relevant, and difficult to simulate.

Others… not so much.

[Rukelnikov]

Completely depends on the cantrip. If you get to choose your cantrip, then great. Some of them are invaluable, almost always relevant, and difficult to simulate.

Others… not so much.

I thought about random cantrip, but went for a chosen cantrip instead, because the value of a random cantrip seems difficult to evaluate, like whats the worst you can get? True Strike on a Barbarian? Resistance could be useful for some drinking contests :P

But then, what use is knowing that there is such a low value case? Its not like we can take best case scenario and worst case scenario and draw an average from them.

Even with it not being random, its still rather unclear how to weigh the features.

We could try do an evaluation on existing characters, kind of a poll, the basis would be "from your 5e characters, how many would take expertise in a tool prof over a cantrip?"

But this runs into the bias of many characters having to go for a cantrip as default, because they do not meet the prereq for the expertise, since they do not have tool proficiencies to begin with. So we could change this to:

"from your 5e characters with proficiency in tools but not expertise, how many would take expertise over a cantrip?"

And this would carry bias in the opposite direction, since the characters most interested in the expertise are left out of the poll.

That's why for something like this I just go with a guesstimate of the situation, and ask for other people's opinion :P

[Chronos]

If we're considering the possibility that the cantrip is random instead of being chosen, then shouldn't we consider the same for the tool? Because, while every tool has a use in some situation or other, some would be much less useful for any given PC.

I think that, if given the choice of random tool or random cantrip, I'd probably still choose the cantrip, unless I was on a character who already had a bunch of cantrips. Though I'd grumble about it either way, because random build elements are bad game design.

[Rukelnikov]

If we're considering the possibility that the cantrip is random instead of being chosen, then shouldn't we consider the same for the tool? Because, while every tool has a use in some situation or other, some would be much less useful for any given PC.

I think that, if given the choice of random tool or random cantrip, I'd probably still choose the cantrip, unless I was on a character who already had a bunch of cantrips. Though I'd grumble about it either way, because random build elements are bad game design.

I wasn't really considering random, my previous post must not have conveyed that properly.

[Kane0]

If its *any* cantrip of your choice its pretty much always going to beat an extra +2 to +6 for a tool, unless you already have the best 3-5 cantrips you really want and also use that particular tool frequently (Thieves tools come to mind)

[elyktsorb]

Though the only tools I think 'need' expertise are Thieves Tools. And Poisoner Kit.

Thieve's tools because traps can be very nasty.

And Poisoner's Kit, because without the feat, the minimum requirement to use it to make poisons, and more importantly not hurt yourself while extracting poisons, is a 20.

Everything else you only need expertise if you absolutely depend on the tool.