Spell DC optimization, can anything beat a druid?

[Soranar]

So a druid is wisdom based and gets the incredible owl's insight buff

combine with a jermlaine dragonborn of bahamut and you get a character with 24 starting WIS

now, as dragonblooded, I can also take draconic aura (energy: cold) to further boost by cold spells' DC

I considered investing in eschew material + snowcasting but a druid already has so many decent cold battlefield control spells that I didn't see the point :

with all of that you get a character with

24 (base) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tomes) + 6 (magic item) + 10 (owl's insight) = 50 WIS = + 20 to your spells' DC
+ 4 (draconic aura) + 1 (cold focus) + 1 (greater cold focus) = +26

I guess a cleric could also do it by using miracle to cast owl's insight but I can't think of a similar spell as owl's insight for arcane casters. Nevermind a race with +6 to CHA or INT (there are 3 races with +6 to WIS that don't have LA).

Can another build beat that using tricks a druid can't pull off?

[flappeercraft]

If you wanna be especially nasty you can always use Poison on top of what you already mentioned and have CL apply to the save DC. It’s a druid spell…

[Melcar]

So a druid is wisdom based and gets the incredible owl's insight buff

combine with a jermlaine dragonborn of bahamut and you get a character with 24 starting WIS

now, as dragonblooded, I can also take draconic aura (energy: cold) to further boost by cold spells' DC

I considered investing in eschew material + snowcasting but a druid already has so many decent cold battlefield control spells that I didn't see the point :

with all of that you get a character with

24 (base) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tomes) + 6 (magic item) + 10 (owl's insight) = 50 WIS = + 20 to your spells' DC
+ 4 (draconic aura) + 1 (cold focus) + 1 (greater cold focus) = +26

I guess a cleric could also do it by using miracle to cast owl's insight but I can't think of a similar spell as owl's insight for arcane casters. Nevermind a race with +6 to CHA or INT (there are 3 races with +6 to WIS that don't have LA).

Can another build beat that using tricks a druid can't pull off?

IÂ’d say sarrukh demi lich can beat that???

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph any object grants you the Int score of whatever you turn into, so go for sarrukh for a 30 base Int, with various disguise magics (such as regular polymorph, or even alter self) to not look like a creepy snake-person. Then again, you could do PAO after body-swapping, so you keep the 30 Int, but someone (or something) else keeps the snake-person body when you swap back. Wizards also gain access to the benefits of the horseshoes of flame (Savage Species) via adding them onto a pair of boots and then UMD'ing them for another +10 to Int.

Of course, druids also gain access to Maximized + Empowered awaken for up to 27 base Wis on a good roll, which stacks with owl's insight.

Even better, a substitute powers/dominant ideal (magic or nature mantle) ardent with access to a convert-spell-to-power erudite with both awaken (via converting it into an arcane spell through the Child of Eberron draconic archetype), owl's insight, and Empower Power could do all of this, but much, much better. The only limits to the number of times you can apply a metapsionic feat are the number of psionic foci you have available and your manifester level cap on power points. (Un)Fortunately, dominant ideal removes both of those issues for Empower Power (removes psionic focus expenditure and lowers the pp cost to nothing for Empower), so an ardent with this setup can get nigh-infinite Empowers on awaken, and can then gain the benefits of owl's insight.

So wizards are just about on par with druids (maybe a bit higher), while a proper ardent setup blows them both out of the water.

[JNAProductions]

How are you combining Owl’s Wisdom with an item? They both give enhancement bonuses.

[ciopo]

How are you combining Owl’s Wisdom with an item? They both give enhancement bonuses.
Owl insight give an insight bonus, it's in spell compendium and iirc it's 1 hour duration gain insight bonus to wisdom equal to half your caster level. It's touch and not personal even

[JNAProductions]

Owl insight give an insight bonus, it's in spell compendium and iirc it's 1 hour duration gain insight bonus to wisdom equal to half your caster level. It's touch and not personal even

Oh… that’s pretty cool.

Good to know.

[Melcar]

[I]

So wizards are just about on par with druids (maybe a bit higher), while a proper ardent setup blows them both out of the water.

I’m unfamiliar with the “proper ardent setup”… any chance for a link or perhaps an explanation?

Thanks

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I’m unfamiliar with the “proper ardent setup”… any chance for a link or perhaps an explanation?

ThanksUm, it's right there in the post you partially quoted. Ardent with Empower Power, the substitute powers ACF (magic or nature mantle with awaken and owl's insight on it) and the dominant ideal ACF (with whatever mantle you altered using substitute powers). Now you can awaken yourself with as many Empowers as you want (since dominant ideal does away with the only restrictions on mega-Empowering powers on the chosen mantle), and substitute powers allows you to have the appropriate spells on your mantle (via the convert-spell-to-power erudite). Make sure that either polymorph or metamorphosis is on one of your mantles, as well, so you can turn into a treant, as you can awaken your mental ability scores without issue, of course.

[Melcar]

Um, it's right there in the post you partially quoted. Ardent with Empower Power, the substitute powers ACF (magic or nature mantle with awaken and owl's insight on it) and the dominant ideal ACF (with whatever mantle you altered using substitute powers). Now you can awaken yourself with as many Empowers as you want (since dominant ideal does away with the only restrictions on mega-Empowering powers on the chosen mantle), and substitute powers allows you to have the appropriate spells on your mantle (via the convert-spell-to-power erudite). Make sure that either polymorph or metamorphosis is on one of your mantles, as well, so you can turn into a treant, as you can awaken your mental ability scores without issue, of course.

I must have missed some of the post... I was on my phone at that time. Still, never heard of that trick. :)

EDIT: Would PAO grant the int score as a base score or simply change your current to what ever the new form had. I'm asking because my wizard has more that 30 int, so changing into a sarrukh would only be beneficial if I gained the 30 int as a base score and not a current total.

Thanks again!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I must have missed some of the post... I was on my phone at that time. Still, never heard of that trick. :)

EDIT: Would PAO grant the int score as a base score or simply change your current to what ever the new form had. I'm asking because my wizard has more that 30 int, so changing into a sarrukh would only be beneficial if I gained the 30 int as a base score and not a current total.

Thanks again!Typically, you just change your base score to that score. Any bonuses, including from items, level-ups, wishes, age, etc would be tacked onto the end -- minus your racial bonuses, since you're no longer of that race.

You've more than likely got a starting Int of 18 + 2 for race (possibly), so you'd replace that with 30, then add everything else on after.

Of course, your DM might want to give you a +20 racial modifier instead, which is generally better unless your rolled or point-buy'd Int was under 10, which I doubt.

[Soranar]

POA is rules as written, no argument there. I've been looking for a high wisdom thing to transform into but it doesn't look like anything can beat a +6 race with maxed out wisdow so far

Sarrukh makes you lose dragonblood though so you can't use draconic aura with it unless it comes from a pet of some kind with enough HD. That can still be figured out though.

The horseshoes of flame would give an enhancement bonus, assuming you can always make the DC 25 UMD check somehow. So that's an extra 2 DC

But the ardent stuff can't work even with the most lenient DM I've ever hear of:

-spell to power erudite converts arcane spells
-converting a spell doesn't mean it's available as a mantle spell, at best maybe a DM would allow you to learn it through psychic chirurgery

I'm not sure I understand how casting awaken on yourself can work since you're not a valid target for the spell?

[Jervis]

With some creative use of type changing spells with Feeblemind and Awaken you can get arbitrary charisma on anyone so long as you scrub off the RHD with a succubus

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sarrukh makes you lose dragonblood though so you can't use draconic aura with it unless it comes from a pet of some kind with enough HD. That can still be figured out though.You swap to another's body, PAO into a sarrukh (gaining the mental bonus), then swap back to your old body (or another body you want more). You're still mentally affected by PAO with a base Int of 30, while whoever or whatever is back in the PAO'd body only gets the body. Feel free to PAO it into something else after that, of course.


But the ardent stuff can't work even with the most lenient DM I've ever hear of:

-spell to power erudite converts arcane spells
-converting a spell doesn't mean it's available as a mantle spell, at best maybe a DM would allow you to learn it through psychic chirurgery Child of Eberron draconic archetype for a spellcasting true dragon: the dragon can cast druid spells as arcane spells.

There are no restrictions on what list you can pull arcane spells from via the erudite ACF.

Once it's converted into a power, it is a psionic power. It can be spread from there, whether by psychic chirurgery, mindrape, Expanded Knowledge, or whatever.

There are no list restrictions as to what powers can be substituted on an ardent's mantle, so long as they're thematically appropriate (and both spells-turned-powers fit well on both Magic and Nature).

So you've got a means of gaining the two spells in question (awaken and owl's insight) as arcane spells, a means of converting those into psionic powers, and a means of adding any psionic powers onto a mantle.

I don't see how artificially adding restrictions to any of the above is at all RAW.


I'm not sure I understand how casting awaken on yourself can work since you're not a valid target for the spell?As I mentioned above, polymorph or metamorphosis into a treant. Any tree is a perfectly valid target for awaken, and treants are animated trees.

[Jervis]

As I mentioned above, polymorph or metamorphosis into a treant. Any tree is a perfectly valid target for awaken, and treants are animated trees.

Are there any other ways of adding to the int/wis/cha roll for awaken besides empower and maximize? Setting a score to 18 + 3d6/2 is pretty powerful for a human spellcaster but is there a way to get Even Further Beyond!?

[Soranar]

Barring the Ardent trick, I think a cleric has got the druid beat by using consumptive field (unless a druid can cast consumptive field somehow)

-consumptive field can raise your caster level by 10 (once you're level 20)
use your boosted caster level to cast owl's insight by using miracle

so instead of +10 to WIS, you get +15

there are a lot of ways to raise caster level through magic items but a druid would have access to all of those too so that's a wash

assuming you max out an empowered awaken on a treant, that's 27 base wisdom instead of 24, add 3 more WIS from aging up to venerable for a base WIS of 30, polymorph any object back into a dragonblooded creature and you end up with 61 WIS I think?

again you could turn into a demilich for another + 10 but so could any other caster though you'd need to get

so short of infinite combos (like a pun pun or infinite empower awaken ardent) this seems like the highest I can think of

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are there any other ways of adding to the int/wis/cha roll for awaken besides empower and maximize? Setting a score to 18 + 3d6/2 is pretty powerful for a human spellcaster but is there a way to get Even Further Beyond!?Well, the ardent I described earlier gets Mental-Stats-As-High-As-He-Wants-Them.

You could also use the Intensify Spell feat on the awaken spell, which Maximizes and doubles the ability score bonuses, but it's an [Epic] feat.

If you've got the Reserves of Strength feat and a ridiculously high caster level, you could PAO yourself into a great wyrm prismatic dragon, which has a 64 Int.

Cast the CDiv version of curse of lycanthropy. You can inflict multiple strains of lycanthropy on one person (since multiple iterations of the template stack), and each one grants +2 Wis. [edit] It also grants the HD of the animal form, which can be used to nab extra feats and ability score increases.

[Quertus]

If anything beats a Tainted Sorcerer for save DC, said Tainted Sorcerer will eat their hat. Of course, they’re already doing so, because they’re mad as a hatter. :smalltongue:

Speaking of, Clerics with the original Madness domain can more or less match Tainted Sorcerer.

The trick is, both basically get to count Wisdom twice for their spells. And both lose Wisdom for all other purposes.

[Anthrowhale]

Faerun Circle Magic allows you to heighten to 20. This is compatible with most spellcasting classes by taking 5 levels of Hathran.

In terms of PAO, there is also the Black Ethergaunt (Int 31, 16HD) which is available with Reserves of Strength.

Necrotic Empowerment provide a +8 empowerment bonus to both Intelligence and Wisdom. Nixie's Grace can provide a +8 enhancement bonus to Charisma.

There's also the Fell Energy and Ability Enhancer feats which are potentially cumulative. These make spells providing bonuses oddball types particularly compelling. There are many of them---sacred, profane, morale, etc...

[Jervis]

If anything beats a Tainted Sorcerer for save DC, said Tainted Sorcerer will eat their hat. Of course, they’re already doing so, because they’re mad as a hatter. :smalltongue:

Speaking of, Clerics with the original Madness domain can more or less match Tainted Sorcerer.

The trick is, both basically get to count Wisdom twice for their spells. And both lose Wisdom for all other purposes.

Doesn’t TS get arbitrary bonus spells and save DC because they use taint in place of x stat for casting?

[loky1109]

Speaking of, Clerics with the original Madness domain can more or less match Tainted Sorcerer.

It isn't about domain, it's about god.

[Soranar]

If anything beats a Tainted Sorcerer for save DC, said Tainted Sorcerer will eat their hat. Of course, they’re already doing so, because they’re mad as a hatter. :smalltongue:

Speaking of, Clerics with the original Madness domain can more or less match Tainted Sorcerer.

The trick is, both basically get to count Wisdom twice for their spells. And both lose Wisdom for all other purposes.

Doesnt taint kill you? I've never played with that mechanic but from what I found online it can reduce your CON score to 0 after which you become an undead npc

[Mordante]

So a druid is wisdom based and gets the incredible owl's insight buff

combine with a jermlaine dragonborn of bahamut and you get a character with 24 starting WIS

now, as dragonblooded, I can also take draconic aura (energy: cold) to further boost by cold spells' DC

I considered investing in eschew material + snowcasting but a druid already has so many decent cold battlefield control spells that I didn't see the point :

with all of that you get a character with

24 (base) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tomes) + 6 (magic item) + 10 (owl's insight) = 50 WIS = + 20 to your spells' DC
+ 4 (draconic aura) + 1 (cold focus) + 1 (greater cold focus) = +26

I guess a cleric could also do it by using miracle to cast owl's insight but I can't think of a similar spell as owl's insight for arcane casters. Nevermind a race with +6 to CHA or INT (there are 3 races with +6 to WIS that don't have LA).

Can another build beat that using tricks a druid can't pull off?

Would any sane GM ever allow this?

Even at level 20 +6 items are very rare. Normally I'd expect a cap at +4 and I have never seen a DM that uses tomes in their adventure.

In my level 17 part I don't think anyone has a stat above 22 or maybe 24.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Doesnt taint kill you? I've never played with that mechanic but from what I found online it can reduce your CON score to 0 after which you become an undead npc

That's the Unearthed Arcana taint. It was updated in Heroes of Horror. It doesn't reduce your Constitution anymore, but you get a variety of harmful effects, from getting -2 on ranged attack rolls to setting your Dexterity to 2 or being forced to coup-de-grâce any fallen ally. It does kill you, but only at much higher taint scores. The tainted scholar prestige class bases their DC on their taint scores. They can replace any harmful effect of corruption (physical taint) with -2 Con, but generally do not do so, since the taint scores that will kill you are based on Con. With 21 Con (a +4 item and initially 17 Con), you only die when your corruption reaches more than 83, or a spell DC of 10+spell level+41.


Would any sane GM ever allow this?

Even at level 20 +6 items are very rare. Normally I'd expect a cap at +4 and I have never seen a DM that uses tomes in their adventure.

In my level 17 part I don't think anyone has a stat above 22 or maybe 24.

At these levels, most anything has Spell Resistance or some kinds of immunity (or simply a very large number of HD giving them good saves). High DCs are obviously good, but they won't break the game by themselves. Scores as high as 50 may raise a few eyebrows, but a lot of DMs would accept people with spell DCs up to 35 in high-level games with no reluctance. They're spending some of their build on that after all, and even have to buff themselves for it. The high DC is not really the problem here as much as the fact that Jermlaines are technically a playable race, following the 3.5 update booklet. They're quite vastly overpowered compared to other LA+0 races, especially as druids.

[Anthrowhale]

There quite vastly overpowered compared to other LA+0 races, especially as druids.
Anthropomorphic Bat says 'hello'. Wis+6 and flight at level 1.

[AsuraKyoko]

Would any sane GM ever allow this?

Even at level 20 +6 items are very rare. Normally I'd expect a cap at +4 and I have never seen a DM that uses tomes in their adventure.

In my level 17 part I don't think anyone has a stat above 22 or maybe 24.

In my group, +6 items are pretty abundant by the mid to high levels, and we do use tomes reasonably frequently at high levels. Depending on the game, I've seen some stats approaching or exceeding 30, after buffs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless the DM houserules against it, using planar binding spells for a couple of genies for 3/day wishes can get the whole party +5 to all stats all across the board. Vastly cheaper than the ability tomes, and you can get each of your ability scores to +5 with only two planar bindings. You have one wish left over, so use Diplomacy on the two genies to exchange two days' worth of non-monkey paw wishes for one wish made on each genie's behalf. So day 1, use the spare wish for genie 1. On day 2, use the spare wish on genie 2. Contract fulfilled for those two days. Repeat the contract every other day until the whole party is wished up.

[Melcar]

Would any sane GM ever allow this?

Even at level 20 +6 items are very rare. Normally I'd expect a cap at +4 and I have never seen a DM that uses tomes in their adventure.

In my level 17 part I don't think anyone has a stat above 22 or maybe 24.



In my group, +6 items are pretty abundant by the mid to high levels, and we do use tomes reasonably frequently at high levels. Depending on the game, I've seen some stats approaching or exceeding 30, after buffs.

When my wizard for which this profile is named was level 17 he had 28 intelligence.

18 base, 4 for level, 6 for item. Come to think of it, I might even have had 30, but its many years ago, so I'm not sure. Its somewhere around 28-30. Now my level 33 wizard currently has int 47, but im looking into ways of PAO into Sarrukh to gain another 20!!! Its going to be so cool! 67 int seems like a nice round number to me!

[Quertus]

Doesn’t TS get arbitrary bonus spells and save DC because they use taint in place of x stat for casting?

Sigh. That’s… yes and no. Yes, they use Taint (or even Taint +10) in place of their casting stat. However, they lose 1 Wisdom for every 2 Taint. So it’s not unlimited. Just like Madness in that regard.

Now, under a certain reading of the rules, an undead (or a living beings with certain undead traits via a particular spell) could possibly have unbounded Taint; however, afaik, most people read those rules to indicate that undead have set Taint scores, and cannot gain more, making such undead lose a DC challenge.


Doesnt taint kill you? I've never played with that mechanic but from what I found online it can reduce your CON score to 0 after which you become an undead npc

Tainted Sorcerers do not take Con loss from Taint.

However, they still lose Wisdom, and can go into an eternal nightmare coma, so it’s not all eating the roses off your hat.


It isn't about domain, it's about god.

Is this a “it’s not a reprint, Madness is different for different gods” thing, like the Force domain argument?

[MultitudeMan]

So a druid is wisdom based and gets the incredible owl's insight buff

combine with a jermlaine dragonborn of bahamut and you get a character with 24 starting WIS

now, as dragonblooded, I can also take draconic aura (energy: cold) to further boost by cold spells' DC

I considered investing in eschew material + snowcasting but a druid already has so many decent cold battlefield control spells that I didn't see the point :

with all of that you get a character with

24 (base) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tomes) + 6 (magic item) + 10 (owl's insight) = 50 WIS = + 20 to your spells' DC
+ 4 (draconic aura) + 1 (cold focus) + 1 (greater cold focus) = +26

I guess a cleric could also do it by using miracle to cast owl's insight but I can't think of a similar spell as owl's insight for arcane casters. Nevermind a race with +6 to CHA or INT (there are 3 races with +6 to WIS that don't have LA).

Can another build beat that using tricks a druid can't pull off?
I think the Word has you beat here. (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29)

[loky1109]

Is this a “it’s not a reprint, Madness is different for different gods” thing, like the Force domain argument?
No. It's different argument. Insanity score rule isn't part of Madness domain. It's separate rule for clerics of Tharizdun. Doesn't matter what domains them have.


Regardless of whether they select the Madness domain, all clerics of Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental Eye share one common aspect: They are insane. To reach beyond the veil and draw upon the power of Tharizdun is to touch madness itself, and no one can do so and come back unchanged.
As a special rule, every cleric of Tharizdun or the Elder Elemental Eye gains an Insanity score equal to half his cleric level...

[Feantar]

IF we're going for arbitrarily high ability modifiers here, would an artificer with multiple +6 items of the same score (Since, due to Item Compendium you can stick a +6 to any item) who makes them stack with Item Alteration be useful here?

Edit: At first, it looked like I was replying to another post - I wasn't that was a missclick. Fixed it.

[Melcar]

IF we're going for arbitrarily high ability modifiers here, would an artificer with multiple +6 items of the same score (Since, due to Item Compendium you can stick a +6 to any item) who makes them stack with Item Alteration be useful here?

Edit: At first, it looked like I was replying to another post - I wasn't that was a missclick. Fixed it.

Only if the type of modifiers are difference. Like enchantment, insight, luck, morale, profane, sacred, circumstance... You can do it with saving throw items... As in have a cloak of resistance, luck, insight, competence, sacred +5 for a total o +25 to saves... but I'm not sure with ability enchantments tho...

Someone here might be more knowledgeable???

[JNAProductions]

Only if the type of modifiers are difference. Like enchantment, insight, luck, morale, profane, sacred, circumstance... You can do it with saving throw items... As in have a cloak of resistance, luck, insight, competence, sacred +5 for a total o +25 to saves... but I'm not sure with ability enchantments tho...

Someone here might be more knowledgeable???

That’s why Artificer.
They can change what type of bonus an item gives. I think.

[Feantar]

Only if the type of modifiers are difference. Like enchantment, insight, luck, morale, profane, sacred, circumstance... You can do it with saving throw items... As in have a cloak of resistance, luck, insight, competence, sacred +5 for a total o +25 to saves... but I'm not sure with ability enchantments tho...

Someone here might be more knowledgeable???

That's the part where Item Alteration comes to the fore. It can turn one bonus into any other (except profane of divine). So you have 6 items of +6 enhancement you turn each into a bonus type other than that.

[Melcar]

That's the part where Item Alteration comes to the fore. It can turn one bonus into any other (except profane of divine). So you have 6 items of +6 enhancement you turn each into a bonus type other than that.

Amazing!

So, assume I wanted to have items permanently changed, so I could essentially have a custom Belt of Magnificence +6, but in every modifier type!

Could I then place the same magnificence enchantment on different items; gloves, bracers, headband, necklace, rings, boots etc. and have a custom enchantment of Item Alteration on each of them thus permanently changing each of those items from enchantment bonus to another, thus essentially giving my +6 in every stat, in every modifier type????

As far as I can tell, I should be able to then have permanent items of magnificence which yielded +6 enchantment, luck, moral, insight, circumstance, competence... Right?

[Quertus]

Don’t forget alchemical! (Not sure if the Artificer can do that, as I’m not familiar with that ability, but I love the image of them sticking 2 beer cans and a drinking tube to a magic hat to change its bonus type)

[Feantar]

Artificer cannot do it permanently. That said, it's a 10 mins / level infusion, so you could make a bunch of minor schemata of it to cast it whenever you want. As for the bonus types, it only has the following limitations:


Cannot change to, or from, profane or divine.
Cannot give a dodge bonus to AC.


Note, that in the example it allows for circumstance modifier type... which stacks with itself. So you don't need to go wide. Just make them all circumstance. Different items, different sources, they stack.

Just to reiterate, you -cannot- make that permanent.

[Melcar]

Artificer cannot do it permanently. That said, it's a 10 mins / level infusion, so you could make a bunch of minor schemata of it to cast it whenever you want. As for the bonus types, it only has the following limitations:


Cannot change to, or from, profane or divine.
Cannot give a dodge bonus to AC.


Note, that in the example it allows for circumstance modifier type... which stacks with itself. So you don't need to go wide. Just make them all circumstance. Different items, different sources, they stack.

Just to reiterate, you -cannot- make that permanent.

So I could not use wish to create an item of continued Item Alteration? I'm using wish, to replicate item alteration, so the item is in fact an item of continued wish... Why would that not work?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Artificer infusions can be metamagicked, so add Ocular Spell + Persistent Spell, and you can keep the best items as Dodge bonuses (all of which stack), or whatever.

[Feantar]

So I could not use wish to create an item of continued Item Alteration? I'm using wish, to replicate item alteration, so the item is in fact an item of continued wish... Why would that not work?

The only items that specifically can contain infusions are Minor Schemata. They, technically, aren't spells. So I am not sure you could do that. (Not that it would be a completely unreasonable ruling)

That being said, if we assume custom items with infusions are rules legal (see above), it's a better idea to make an at will Item Alteration item; otherwise you could only alter 1 item continuously, instead of applying it to all your items and refreshing after every battle.

[Melcar]

The only items that specifically can contain infusions are Minor Schemata. They, technically, aren't spells. So I am not sure you could do that. (Not that it would be a completely unreasonable ruling)

That being said, if we assume custom items with infusions are rules legal (see above), it's a better idea to make an at will Item Alteration item; otherwise you could only alter 1 item continuously, instead of applying it to all your items and refreshing after every battle.

I see… Could I not just have multiple continuous Item Alteration items?

[Quertus]

So… what’s the price tag on “permanent” beer hat of alchemical bonus to Intelligence +6?

[Jervis]

So… what’s the price tag on “permanent” beer hat of alchemical bonus to Intelligence +6?
Your self respect

[Melcar]

So… what’s the price tag on “permanent” beer hat of alchemical bonus to Intelligence +6?

My wizard, for Which this account is named is a dweomerkeeper, so for me an Epic Belt of Magnificence + 12 will be free, so too will it’s counterpart Epic Headband of Magnificent Insight +12 be!

A nifty little class ability that supernatural spell! 😆

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dodge bonuses stack with each other, so...

[Feantar]

Dodge bonuses stack with each other, so...

Out of curiosity, how would you describe a dodge bonus to INT? You sidestepped the riddle, avoiding its tricks, and swerved your way into the answer!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Out of curiosity, how would you describe a dodge bonus to INT? You sidestepped the riddle, avoiding its tricks, and swerved your way into the answer!Maybe that's why Gohan was the smartest Saiyan in DBZ.

Piccolo: "DOOOOODGE!"

[Jervis]

Out of curiosity, how would you describe a dodge bonus to INT? You sidestepped the riddle, avoiding its tricks, and swerved your way into the answer!

Advanced mental gymnastics

[Beni-Kujaku]

The idea of a dodge bonus to anything else than AC was so ridiculous that they didn't even consider it a possibility when printing Item Alteration, specifically writing a clause to prevent items giving dodge bonuses to AC, but not mentioning anything else.

[Mordante]

Unless the DM houserules against it, using planar binding spells for a couple of genies for 3/day wishes can get the whole party +5 to all stats all across the board. Vastly cheaper than the ability tomes, and you can get each of your ability scores to +5 with only two planar bindings. You have one wish left over, so use Diplomacy on the two genies to exchange two days' worth of non-monkey paw wishes for one wish made on each genie's behalf. So day 1, use the spare wish for genie 1. On day 2, use the spare wish on genie 2. Contract fulfilled for those two days. Repeat the contract every other day until the whole party is wished up.

Do people actually do this? It has several layers of cheese.

[loky1109]

The idea of a dodge bonus to anything else than AC was so ridiculous that they didn't even consider it a possibility when printing Item Alteration, specifically writing a clause to prevent items giving dodge bonuses to AC, but not mentioning anything else.
If I remember right there is dodge bonus to reflex somewhere.

[Beni-Kujaku]

If I remember right there is dodge bonus to reflex somewhere.

Yes, Haste at least does give a dodge bonus to Reflex.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do people actually do this? It has several layers of cheese.You have to specifically houserule against it, and it's actually quite illogical that it doesn't work. It's a really good deal for the genies, since they can't usually use their wishes on themselves, and they are very valuable. They're even incentivised to act in good faith apart from the workings of the Planar Binding spell, since they get their wish last. And they might even ask to be called back on later days to continue the deal, as that's a nearly free 25k every time it happens.

But yes, I've had multiple games where it was a thing.

[Melcar]

Do people actually do this? It has several layers of cheese.

This don’t register as cheese in my book! It’s applying a spells intended use on the most advantageous creatures… nothing more. The is no more cheese involved in this than say picking the best weapons or feats for your fighter… the result is vastly different, but not the level of cheese in my book!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Bestow Curse and the greater version can both grant penalties to ability scores, as well as anything of equal power level. Curses can also be positive things (see gender swapping and how it's a positive thing for some people), so equal bonuses to ability scores are viable effects for those spells.

Clerics, wizards, sorcerers, and psion types (with access to StP erudites) can all get those spells.

So that's a thing.

[Melcar]

Bestow Curse and the greater version can both grant penalties to ability scores, as well as anything of equal power level. Curses can also be positive things (see gender swapping and how it's a positive thing for some people), so equal bonuses to ability scores are viable effects for those spells.

Clerics, wizards, sorcerers, and psion types (with access to StP erudites) can all get those spells.

So that's a thing.

That's pretty cool, so how many curses could I have running on my simultaneously? Could I have 3, so I can have +6 to all my six ability scores? Or would each new casting supersede the previous?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's pretty cool, so how many curses could I have running on my simultaneously? Could I have 3, so I can have +6 to all my six ability scores? Or would each new casting supersede the previous?I would think that you could be under the effects of multiple curses at once from each spell, but apparently that's not an option as defined under 'Same Effect With Differing Results,' so I guess you can only have one instance of each spell.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects

[Quertus]

As everyone can use it, I’m not sure if the sketchy “cursed with awesome” is going to change… well, actually, gives twice the bonus to the Tainted Sorcerer than to anyone else. So, in a question of who has the biggest DC, the more generally accessible bonuses you add, the larger the margin by which the Tainted Sorcerer wins.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As everyone can use it, I’m not sure if the sketchy “cursed with awesome” is going to change… well, actually, gives twice the bonus to the Tainted Sorcerer than to anyone else. So, in a question of who has the biggest DC, the more generally accessible bonuses you add, the larger the margin by which the Tainted Sorcerer wins.Druids can't cast the Bestow Curse spells, although they can have the spells cast on them if they can find someone to do it for them

[Quertus]

Druids can't cast the Bestow Curse spells, although they can have the spells cast on them if they can find someone to do it for them

Yeah, the duration’s kinda permanent (or permanent until removed); if the Druid can get the +5 Internet Inherent bonus that they cannot provide themselves, getting “Cursed with Awesome” should be a snap.

Although it might be interesting to compare all the “requirements” and drawbacks of each build, if we just care about DC, I still think that Tainted Sorcerer will be really hard to beat.

[Feantar]

Yeah, the duration’s kinda permanent (or permanent until removed); if the Druid can get the +5 Internet bonus that they cannot provide themselves, getting “Cursed with Awesome” should be a snap.

Beware though, while the druids worshipping Comcast can get up to a +5 internet bonus, they usually barely get a +2, or sometimes a +1. And should you decide that you want to remove that internet bonus to replace it with a better one through break enchantment, you will have to wait for a priest between 9:00 and 17:00 in the next five business days.

Sorry...

[Quertus]

Beware though, while the druids worshipping Comcast can get up to a +5 internet bonus, they usually barely get a +2, or sometimes a +1. And should you decide that you want to remove that internet bonus to replace it with a better one through break enchantment, you will have to wait for a priest between 9:00 and 17:00 in the next five business days.

Sorry...

Ahahaha, autocorrect got me again! :smallamused:

EDIT: fixed (?)

[Quertus]

When it comes to “what’s the highest we can get”, obviously, a more permissive GM will result in higher numbers. So let’s assume the following: All stats at rolled 18s
Limited to WBL (unless anyone else has a better answer that doesn’t violate “no infinite, no arbitrary”)
100% of WBL is spent on DC, as applicable; no other spending limits
“Craft It yourself” gives a 30% cost reduction / makes it cost 70%: 50% for gp components, 20% for XP components
“Alchemical beer hat” alternate bonuses
Cost double (no price posted thus far; also, slotless, maybe?)
Are limited to 5 of them (totally arbitrary hatred of Christmas / reason to ever buy “+4” items)
“Cursed with Awesome” is available as spell casting services: Greater Bestow Curse
+5 Inherent bonus available as Spell casting services: Planar Binding x3 (minimum for all 3 djinn to get “paid” with Wish cast on their behalf)
+5 Internet bonus not available :smallamused:
Some class exists where “minimum caster level = Spell level” for spell casting services price calculations.
casting it yourself is “free” (expensive components notwithstanding)


For ease of math, let’s pretend that the Tainted Sorcerer permanent stabilized at just enough Taint to leave them at a 4 Wisdom.

Let’s see if I get any pushback on / additions to these baselines; if not, we can start to look at actual numbers of “DC by level”.

[Feantar]

I seem to remember there being a trick with a disease that gave you a Str bonus (and INT penalty) combined with a class (Cancer Mage?) that makes you immune to the penalty and combined with some Illumian or other trickery to get STR as a casting stat. Sorry for the vagueness I cannot remember. But I think that one was infinite, but legitimately working.

[Quertus]

I seem to remember there being a trick with a disease that gave you a Str bonus (and INT penalty) combined with a class (Cancer Mage?) that makes you immune to the penalty and combined with some Illumian or other trickery to get STR as a casting stat. Sorry for the vagueness I cannot remember. But I think that one was infinite, but legitimately working.

Festering Anger gives +1 Strength per day you have the disease. No Intelligence penalty, but daily chance to go “berserk”… That may be what you’re thinking of.

Not “infinite”, but commonly considered to fail as “arbitrary”.

[ciopo]

I seem to remember there being a trick with a disease that gave you a Str bonus (and INT penalty) combined with a class (Cancer Mage?) that makes you immune to the penalty and combined with some Illumian or other trickery to get STR as a casting stat. Sorry for the vagueness I cannot remember. But I think that one was infinite, but legitimately working.

The illuminian power word for DEX or STR only substitutes for bonus spell slot, not for DC or spell level access

.
Can we fit (one? More?) Tattooed monk level in the build, for bellflower tattoo giving us CHA mod as enhancement bonus to one ability score of our choice, assuming we do whatever shenanigans we do for wisdom to charisma too, that's basically one more DC for every 4 CHA we have above 22