[1E] Themed Spell Lists

[Drakevarg]

I'm working on a project to trim down the frankly ridiculous spell lists in 3.PF into limited selections of flexible, interesting spells that encourage creative problem solving. I don't really want to talk about whether or not that's a good idea, it's my experiment to run with my own group. If I wanted to discuss the project as a whole I'd be posting over in Homebrew.

What I wanna ask about specifically is the sticking point of Phase I of this project. To parse down these spell lists I gotta know what's in them, so I've been going through these spell lists and categorizing them according to the themes I identify. Outliers either get thrown out or pile up enough for me to reconsider the categories so they're not outliers anymore. Since my campaign only uses 6-level casters (again, not interested in debating that point), I've got 3/5-6 done already (Bard is currently a big question mark, I haven't decided to my satisfaction yet if their spell list is sufficiently distinct from "Mesmerist but musical."), and I'm currently stuck on the Occultist.

So far:

Alchemist
Medicinal, Psychotropic, Alchemical

Inquisitor
Prayer, Crusade, Inquisition

Mesmerist
Illusion, Hypnotism, Scrying

Trick is, Occultist is a generalist caster. They dabble in a little bit of everything. Parsing it down into three broad themes (even ones of deliberately flexible interpretation) is proving to be a fair bit of work. So, rather than completely exhaust myself trying to figure it out for myself, I thought I'd put the question in front of the Playground and see if anything useful shakes out. The themes can be pretty much any one-word concept that invokes some kind of aesthetic or flavor. All the better for creative categorization.

I'll keep thinking about it on my own (my current categories are "Storms, Spirits, Runes"), but I'm curious what comes out here.

(Oh, and the remaining class is Spiritualist. Just didn't mention it before now because I haven't gotten that far yet.)

[Drakevarg]

Okay, had an idea, finally.

Since Occultists are a) generalist casters and b) explicitly mechanically tied to the eight schools of magic, why not just categorize them by those schools?

My plan for Phase II was to give each class 5 spells per theme per spell level, for a total of 15 spells per level/90 spells total. Which personally I think is plenty. If I gave the Occultist 2 spells per school of magic per spell level, they'd get 16 spells per spell level (total 96), which would give them a very slight edge over the other casters, but ultimately an extremely minor one and one that befits their roll as a generalist.

It's a bit out of step with everything else, but I've spent the last three days staring at this problem with no better ideas, so at least it's something.

[DrMartin]

Consider that Occultist do not freely choose which spell they pick among all the schools, they are limited to their implement choices. So if every school has two spells, the character gets to pick only among those two spells. And if they pick the same school again, the choice is made for them, and can´t specialize further.

If keeping the numbers among themes consistent is key to this project I´d suggest you keep picking 5 spells per level per theme, the occultist gets access to two of them at first level and to either another school or another pick among the schools he knows every time he expands the implements arsenal. On paper they get more choices than other classes but the way they select spells limits their choices in practice, and this fits with a generalist class, as you correctly mentioned.

Keeping the themes all built in the same way makes them easily swappable among classes and less idiosyncratic. so a bard and the mesmerist can share the Illusion theme for instance. and maybe take it a step further and Illusion is the same Illusion that the Occultist can take as their school pick.

edit: I realized after writing this, that this is basically what Shadow of the Demon Lord does - each school of magic has 4-6 spells per rank on average, and spellcasters get access to different schools according to their class choices. It works very well, each school has its theme, and the spells are iconic for their theme and offer enough flexibility without overwhelming with choices.

[Drakevarg]

Consider that Occultist do not freely choose which spell they pick among all the schools, they are limited to their implement choices. So if every school has two spells, the character gets to pick only among those two spells. And if they pick the same school again, the choice is made for them, and can´t specialize further.

If keeping the numbers among themes consistent is key to this project I´d suggest you keep picking 5 spells per level per theme, the occultist gets access to two of them at first level and to either another school or another pick among the schools he knows every time he expands the implements arsenal. On paper they get more choices than other classes but the way they select spells limits their choices in practice, and this fits with a generalist class, as you correctly mentioned.

Hm... On one hand, the Occultist ultimately has the opportunity to access 7/8 schools, though they can also opt to simply pick the same one over and over. On the other hand, limiting it to two spells per school per level would indeed effectively bar them from specializing much at all. I think you're right. While on paper this approach would give them 40 spell options per level and 240 spells total (give or take knacks), nearly triple anyone else, that's still a significant trim-down from what they have in the book and in practice they'd only be able to access a small handful of them.

I'll go with that, sure.


Keeping the themes all built in the same way makes them easily swappable among classes and less idiosyncratic. so a bard and the mesmerist can share the Illusion theme for instance. and maybe take it a step further and Illusion is the same Illusion that the Occultist can take as their school pick.

Idiosyncratic and class-specific was kind of the idea. The Mesmerist's "Illusion" theme isn't strictly Illusions in the spell school sense, it includes pretty much any spell that alters perception. And of course since Phase II involves parsing them down, the 30 most flexible/interesting spells of that description for the Mesmerist won't necessarily - or even likely - be the same as it is for the Occultist.


edit: I realized after writing this, that this is basically what Shadow of the Demon Lord does - each school of magic has 4-6 spells per rank on average, and spellcasters get access to different schools according to their class choices. It works very well, each school has its theme, and the spells are iconic for their theme and offer enough flexibility without overwhelming with choices.

Glad to know there's some precedent for the idea.