level one compo balancing ( riding dog issue )

[Ouden]

Hello Giants, i'm really in trouble in managing rules around riding dog :
how to regulate bardature? does it get armors proficiency how MM says or not because of animal companion restrictions? my player insist that it reach 19 AC at level one without getting any malus ( studded leather +3 AC -1 acp ).

I used the base list of MM for stats and simply applied the PH animal companion rules, suggesting the player to teach the "combat trick pack" to allow the dog to be "trained at war" and unlock the trip combat ability like wolves. About bardature i allowed the dog to take (as best choice) the leather, assuming the dog doesn't get armor proficiency.

My player insist that the dog as MM say, because in the glossary specify it : the riding dog and war horse both get armors proficiency if trained for war.

In my interpretation this will be applied always when we are talking about a riding dog or a war horse as "monster", "png", or as "good for sale" ( pg 129 PH ), but not for the animal companion.

But i admit all this rules are weird and confusing and i would really appreciate to understand clearly.

In any case that dog is unacceptable in a nonfull powerplayers/minmaxers party, and dont tell me about that at level 2 it get weaker cause is not damnly that true XD.

thank you for help and good job if you are beeing able to understand my english.

[Paragon]

The riding dog is usually better than the PC at lower levels it is true.

Your friend is correct, the link here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#adventuringGear) will tell you all about barding and how it doesn't affect the dog much. At least it reduces it's speed from 40 to 30 in medium or heavy barding so I guess that's something

[Telonius]

This one is kind of hidden in Monster Manual 2, in the "Warbeast" template. It notes Warhorses or War Ponies already come with the templates. (Doesn't specify Riding Dogs). MM2 is still 3.0 content, so the template references 3.0 types (like "Beast"). But a riding dog would definitely fall under something it's mentioned specifically: for a domestic animal, it's a DC 20 Handle Animal check (and takes 2 months training) to turn it into a Warbeast. The template gives proficiency in armor and an extra hit die, among other things.

The template is specifically mentioned in the 3.0 to 3.5 update pamphlet as well.

[Zanos]

Keep in mind that even if the dog is not proficienct, it can still wear barding with no ACP at no penalty. So leather(+2) or masterwork studded leather(+3) are still fair game.

[Ouden]

thank you all. i will simply try to nerf it to balance fights for the newbies and let him still carry and to be rewarded for his work in minmaxing correctly. i think is better way atm.

[rel]

If a players character doesn't fit the group, I recommend discussing it with the player separately.
I rarely see attempts to adjust things in game work as well as a conversation away from the table.

[Darg]

One thing to note is that the player doesn't control the animal. All they do is give it commands through handle animal checks. Using the attack trick requires a DC 20 check to get them to attack something. At level 1 it's usually a 50% or less success rate. It's the DM's prerogative to determine how many times a player can attempt free actions in a round. I generally do one attempt per round, per animal. Failure can simply be inexperience with working with your companion so it ends up not being able to understand what you want. You can't take 20 in combat nor can you take 10 when threatened or distracted.

[Zanos]

One thing to note is that the player doesn't control the animal. All they do is give it commands through handle animal checks. Using the attack trick requires a DC 20 check to get them to attack something. At level 1 it's usually a 50% or less success rate. It's the DM's prerogative to determine how many times a player can attempt free actions in a round. I generally do one attempt per round, per animal. Failure can simply be inexperience with working with your companion so it ends up not being able to understand what you want. You can't take 20 in combat nor can you take 10 when threatened or distracted.
DC 20 is to teach the trick, not perform it. The DC for an animal to perform a trick it knows is only DC 10. And since this is an animal companion it gets a bonus trick automatically, and the PC gets a +4 bonus and may handle as a free action, making it completely trivial unless the PC has no ranks in handle animal or a horrific charisma score.

[Fizban]

Hello Giants, i'm really in trouble in managing rules around riding dog :
how to regulate bardature? does it get armors proficiency how MM says or not because of animal companion restrictions? my player insist that it reach 19 AC at level one without getting any malus ( studded leather +3 AC -1 acp ).
First rule of being the DM: if you're sure that the player should not have an AC 19 minion at 1st level, you're the one that makes the rules and gets to say no.


I used the base list of MM for stats and simply applied the PH animal companion rules, suggesting the player to teach the "combat trick pack" to allow the dog to be "trained at war" and unlock the trip combat ability like wolves. About bardature i allowed the dog to take (as best choice) the leather, assuming the dog doesn't get armor proficiency.
There is no official statement that I'm aware of for making a Riding Dog count as "trained for war" yourself, but teaching it the "combat" trick package mentioned in the Handle Animal skill is reasonable.

For any other animal, armor proficiency would cost a feat.

The MM2 Warbeast template would let you buy a CR 7 Elephant (with 100+ hit points and 2d8+15 damage) for 925gp. The formula given is completely ridiculous. It comes from a book that is often mocked for having monsters that anyone can see are overpowered or inappropriate at a glance. The warbeast template's market price info should not be used, neither directly nor for setting expectations.


My player insist that the dog as MM say, because in the glossary specify it : the riding dog and war horse both get armors proficiency if trained for war.

In my interpretation this will be applied always when we are talking about a riding dog or a war horse as "monster", "png", or as "good for sale" ( pg 129 PH ), but not for the animal companion.
If you buy a warhorse, it's trained for war. If you buy a riding dog, it is not specified, but given that riding dogs are mounts for Small characters and they already have ponies as a "non-war" mount, it is reasonable to assume that a purchased riding dog would be war-trained.

The question is where your Druid player is getting the animal companion. They can buy a war-trained riding dog and make it their companion, but that costs 150gp, which they do not have at 1st level unless you gave them extra starting gold or they've already done some adventuring (the studded leather barding is another 50gp). They can train it themselves, if you allow, but that takes time. You can let them say that they already trained it before the adventure, but that is kinda giving them something for free so you should not be surprised that they've. . . just gotten something for free.


In any case that dog is unacceptable in a nonfull powerplayers/minmaxers party, and dont tell me about that at level 2 it get weaker cause is not damnly that true XD.
See first rule of being the DM. Animal armor, barding, is an especially problematic part of the "animal companion" (and Wild Shape, etc) rules, because it pretty clearly was not written for Druids. It was written for horses, and by extension riding dogs, because normal mounts that mostly just carry their PCs around could use some AC to not die and waste that investment, and there is some historical horse armor.

Barding rules were not written for giving the 3.5 druid a grizzly kodiak bear with an extra +4 or more AC, and when your druid player gets to higher levels and starts expecting to switch to new far more powerful animals (I would recommend banning or nerfing the "brown" bear at minimum) at no cost simply by walking into the woods and then drastically upgrade their AC for chump change in town, it is up to you as the DM to stop that nonsense if it's not appropriate for your game. Which you just said, is not appropriate for your game. (I would also recommend laying down some rules for how often the druid can replace their "companion," as the original spell said you had to truly want to be their friend, while the 3.5 feature lacks any rules to stop them from being disposable minion. The paladin's mount, an intelligent, presumably volunteer, called to serve the cause of fighting for Good, requires a month long wait to replace, but the druid can just send their "friends" into the meatgrinder as fast as they can pull them out of the woods).

Other 1st level druid problems include the Entangle spell, which is already overpowered enough, so don't let them cast it on bare dirt or stone when there are no plants around.

Bear, Grizzly

Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40'
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +1 dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
BAB/Grapple: +4/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Spec. Atk: ---
Spec. Qual: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +12
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track
Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
CR: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: 4-5 HD (Medium)

The less common but still wide-ranging brown/grizzly bear. They are on the smaller end of Large with a weight of 250-800lbs and a height of around 7.5'.

-Natural armor, Strength, and natural weapon die sizes reduced, removed Improved Grab, reduced CR to 3. These are now between Black and Polar/Kodiak Bears.