Please help! Select my PC for a 1-20 Mad Mage Campaign!

[bsullivanp]

I am about to start a 1-20 Dragon Heist/Mad Mage campaign and am extremely indecisive on which is the best PC option to choose (its such a long commitment I don't want to pick something that will be too underpowered and just not any fun).

For background the party composition is:


Padlock (9 Vengeance/14 Fiend Warlock)
Eldritch Knight
Glamour Bard
Clockwork Sorcerer
Grave Cleric

I know that the Mad Mage is tailor made for SOMEONE to play a Wizard, but as you can tell from the party make-up, that person would have to be me, if anyone. Meanwhile, feels to me that we are weak in the roguish area. I rolled OK, 17/16/13/12/11/11, but probably prevents me from spreading too MAD.

So far, I've narrowed it down to four options:


Half Elf Mage Hunter (Abjuration 19 / Peace Cleric 1). I liked the idea of playing a defender and unique off-tank through wards and counterspell/dispel magic
Bugbear Gloom Hunter (Gloomstalker 16 / Battlemaster 4). Longbow sharpshooter 1st round Nova damage dealer.
Bugbear Gloom Trickster (Arcane Trickster 17 / Gloomstalker 3): Stealthy melee rogue doing nova damage in the shadows. Plan was to keep INT/WIS low and pick buff spells that don't require rolls or saves (e.g., Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Fog Cloud)
Bugbear Arcane Assassin (Arcane Trickster 15 / Battlemaster 5): A more traditional rogue that tries to maximize opportunities for sneak attack. Similar to #3, will keep most spells as buffs until late game when I can catch up with my INT.

Save for a Bladesinger Wizard, I've never played ANY of these classes or subclasses in 5e. (and certainly none of these multi-classed). That said, they all seem cool on the surface.

Has anyone ever played similar builds and what was your experience? Fun? Good DPR? Good for the mega-dungeon environment that is Mad Mage?

Most importantly, which would you recommend in general and why?

My head is telling me that it would be silly for the group to play Mad Mage w/o a Wizard, but my heart is telling me it would greatly conflict with the Bard, Sorcerer, and even Padlock.

Thanks a ton!

[Urbanmech]

The on demand ritual access that wizards have access to is really felt when you don’t have it. The only other class that can keep up is a Tome Warlock with the Book of Shadows invocation. Your paladin/warlock probability won’t be going Tome, but wouldn’t hurt to ask. You can also tailor your spell picks to complement your other party casters.

[bsullivanp]

The on demand ritual access that wizards have access to is really felt when you don’t have it. The only other class that can keep up is a Tome Warlock with the Book of Shadows invocation. Your paladin/warlock probability won’t be going Tome, but wouldn’t hurt to ask. You can also tailor your spell picks to complement your other party casters.

She's my daughter, so that one I actually do know. She actually is going Fiend Warlock/Pact of Tome (I know, not Hexblade, I'm so proud!).

So we will have some level of ritual casting. I was just thinking that there must be a TON of goodies for a wizard in DoMM (spellbooks, etc.) that would essentially go to waste for an entire level 20 campaign. Feels like a travesty. But maybe that is overstated and not a big deal. But we will have Ritual Casting covered, thankfully.

Now someone to pick a lock? Not so much.

[animorte]

Cleric and Bard both have some ritual casting. You’ve got a fair amount of casters (all of them actually) anyway. Definitely not hurting on that front.

I would personally go Gloom Trickster. You still have the spells like everybody else, and it might help to have a Rogue along for the ride, more than anything else at this point IMO.

[Urbanmech]

Rogue 1/Wizard 19? Gets your vital rogue trap skills down and then get to the wizard good stuff.

While the paladin/warlock will eventually have the best ritual access, being multiclassed will slow down their progress. The Bard and Cleric either have to use a precious spell known or donÂ’t have the same range of access as a wizard. Getting Tiny Hut, Find Familiar, Floating Disk, Telepathic Bond, Alarm and Unseen Servant gives you a lot of utility that is always available and will come online faster. Not to mention the most robust spell list out of any of the casters.

Another one to consider would be a bugbear shadow or mercy monk. Sneaky scout with serious alpha strike potential.

[Keravath]

Arcane Trickster 15/Hexblade warlock (blade pact) 5?

One question though ... is the module being run as written or will the DM adjust the itemization? The reason this is important is that most modern modules are not written to provide a large number of magic item options for a diverse party.

I played through ToA as a arcane trickster X/fey warlock 3 (blade pact) because it fit with the character backstory. As it turned out I was still using the +1 improved pact weapon long bow at level 12 at the end of the adventure since magic items in ToA were very sparse and there were literally no magical long bows in the module as written.

Depending on what house rules you are using for the DotMM run and how the DM is handling items you might want to plan around a character that can get their own magical weapon (if you are going martial).

My favorite wizard, if you decide to go that way, is a knowledge cleric 1/evoker wizard X. Evoker is extremely useful since you can drop some big spells on top of your front line without risk.

On the other hand, I don't know how many traps/locked doors/secret doors there are in Mad Mage that would really benefit from a character with a high passive perception. I like the gloom stalker/trickster option but I would consider gloomstalker 5 for extra attack or even gloomstalker 7 for proficiency in wisdom saves and gloomstalker 8 for the ASI. Gloomstalker 8/Trickster 12 would max out the number of ASIs.

You need at least 13 wisdom and dex to multiclass to or from ranger too.

17/16/13/12/11/11 - assuming Tasha's Bugbear gets +2/+1 - you could then start with a 19/17 which could become 20/18 after your first ASI. Alternatively 19/16/14 and pick up a 1/2 feat to boost the 19 to a 20 at level 4. Or using +1/+1/+1 18/17/14

If you want to be a wizard you could play a custom lineage and put 17 in int +2 to get 19 and a half feat like fey touched to start with 20 int at level 1.

On the other hand, a sharpshooter bug bear will really have a lot of round 1 dps. Gloomstalker can get the archery fighting style and if you can do some or all of your fighting from darkness you will often be invisible. Sharpshooter though doesn't really work well with rogue since you usually won't want to use it because hitting with sneak attack is more important.

P.S. Another option might be a arcane trickster rogue 3/bladesinger X.

[bsullivanp]

P.S. Another option might be a arcane trickster rogue 3/bladesinger X.

Thanks for the feedback. I had actually considered that option but:

1) Wouldn't the slowed spell progression of 3 rogue levels feel real bad? Especially against the Bard & Sorcerer, who both will be going single class, I would think it would feel noticable.
2) Is 3 levels of rogue even worth it? The sneak attack damage is nominal at best.

[Keravath]

Thanks for the feedback. I had actually considered that option but:

1) Wouldn't the slowed spell progression of 3 rogue levels feel real bad? Especially against the Bard & Sorcerer, who both will be going single class, I would think it would feel noticable.
2) Is 3 levels of rogue even worth it? The sneak attack damage is nominal at best.

You could go with the one level of rogue suggested by another poster since that gets the expertise as well as thieves tools and related skills that were a concern.

However, three levels of arcane trickster gets several useful features for the character.
- sneak attack is minor but if you want to play a melee wizard/bladesinger it may turn out to be useful - the real appeal of 1 level is 4 skills to start and 2 with expertise so you can go for high perception/high lock pick.
- cunning action - disengage/hide/dash as a bonus action - for a wizard wanting to melee or move in and out of a combat or position better or escape something it is a very useful feature
- mage hand legerdemain can be a useful addition though circumstantial - sneak attack goes to 2d6 - plus you pick up 3 more cantrips (one of those mage hand) - more cantrips are always useful.

If I was playing this I would probably start rogue 1/bladesinger 6/rogue 2/ then either more bladesinger or put in the 3rd rogue level if desired. That minimizes the delay for both 3rd level spells and extra attack while getting the roguish aspects of the character on line as early as possible.

Using custom lineage you could start with 20 int/16 dex and 13 con picking up resilient con at level 4 in a class. You could also use the level 4 ASI to boost dex to 18 if you want to focus on the melee aspects of the character.

Lots of options :)

[Nidgit]

Is there any particular reason you're focusing on Arcane Trickster as a Rogue subclass? If it's what interests you the most that's totally fine but I think a guaranteed 1-20 campaign would be a great chance to try out a late-bloomer subclass like Phantom or Soulknife.

[bsullivanp]

Is there any particular reason you're focusing on Arcane Trickster as a Rogue subclass? If it's what interests you the most that's totally fine but I think a guaranteed 1-20 campaign would be a great chance to try out a late-bloomer subclass like Phantom or Soulknife.

I absolutely love the idea of Soul Knife, in particular, but wasn't sure how to build or use that subclass in this context.

[CTurbo]

I really like the Gloom Stalker/Rogue for this, but I would 100% build for a ranged archer build and not a melee build. Of course with a 20 Dex, this character would still be perfectly viable in melee if necessary.

With those stats you could easily start 18 Dex and 14/16 in Con/Wis in either order you prefer. One +2 Dex and you could spend all other ASIs on feats like Sharpshooter, Alert, Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Mobile, Lucky, etc...

I'd go Gloom Stalker 5, Rogue 15. Arcane Trickster would be fine, but I really like Scout too.

You could throw in 2 levels of Fighter for Action Surge and extra super powered first rounds.

[bsullivanp]

I really like the Gloom Stalker/Rogue for this, but I would 100% build for a ranged archer build and not a melee build. Of course with a 20 Dex, this character would still be perfectly viable in melee if necessary.

With those stats you could easily start 18 Dex and 14/16 in Con/Wis in either order you prefer. One +2 Dex and you could spend all other ASIs on feats like Sharpshooter, Alert, Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Mobile, Lucky, etc...

I'd go Gloom Stalker 5, Rogue 15. Arcane Trickster would be fine, but I really like Scout too.

You could throw in 2 levels of Fighter for Action Surge and extra super powered first rounds.

Thanks.

Couldn’t I even start with a 1/1/1 Bugbear attribute bonus and go:
Str 11 / Dex 18 / Con 14 / Int 16. / Wis 13. / Cha 11

Would hurt my Initiative a bit, as well as my Con but would allow me to be more aggressive with my Arcane Trickster spells, which constitute the majority of my spells.

Or am I better of putting in Con or Wis?

[Bobthewizard]

I agree with CTurbo above.

The party has arcane spells covered, so for a gloomstalker archer, I wouldn't go arcane trickster. I would go scout for the reaction disengage. I also like having 3 levels of battle master fighter on this build for action surge and some maneuvers.

[bsullivanp]

I agree with CTurbo above.

The party has arcane spells covered, so for a gloomstalker archer, I wouldn't go arcane trickster. I would go scout for the reaction disengage. I also like having 3 levels of battle master fighter on this build for action surge and some maneuvers.

DM is only allowing 2 class multi classes, so I would need to select either Gloomstalker or Battlemaster.

[Bobthewizard]

DM is only allowing 2 class multi classes, so I would need to select either Gloomstalker or Battlemaster.

For a bugbear, I would go gloom stalker. Get sharpshooter ASAP. Hide in the shadows and attack with advantage.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I’m going to buck the trend, and state your initial instinct that somebody in the group should play a Wizard, is correct.

There are quite a few Spellbooks that can be plundered when all is said and done. More importantly, Undermountain is situated under a major metropolis, so buying scrolls, potions, etc should be possible.

This is my grognard opinion, but Undermountain, shouldn’t be ran like Diablo.

Ideally, the interplay between the politics and action that happens above the Sewers of Waterdeep should also lead Adventurers to explore underneath the streets as well.

[RogueJK]

I liked the idea of playing a defender and unique off-tank


I absolutely love the idea of Soul Knife, in particular, but wasn't sure how to build or use that subclass in this context.

A Soul Knife that's a unique off-tank? Lemme introduce you to the Ancestral Barbarian 5/Soul Knife Rogue X. A good progression is Rogue 3/4/5 -> Barbarian 5 -> Rogue X


You have the option of up to 3x attacks using your Psychic Blades, using Attack+Extra Attack+BA Attack. This gets you up to 3x chances to land your Sneak Attack, as well as 3x chances to trigger you Ancestral Protectors, both of which trigger on your first hit of your turn. Just check with your DM to ensure they'll allow Psychic Blades to work with Extra Attack. That ability is poorly worded, so some DMs interpret it as not being able to manifest a Psychic Blade for Extra Attack. If you're in that situation, you can stick to just 3 or 4 levels of Barbarian, and still have 2x attacks per round with your Bonus Action attack. Or alternately, if you can use Psychic Blades with Extra Attack, you can forego the BA offhand Psychic Blade and wield a shield in that hand, boosting your AC and freeing up your Bonus Action for Cunning Action/Steady Aim, while still retaining 2x attacks per turn.

Importantly, Psychic Blades can be thrown up to 60' with no range penalty, and this applies to all Psychic Blade attacks. This lets you stay back away from the group and hit the biggest threat from up to 60' away with a thrown Psychic Blade for Sneak Attack and Ancestral Protectors. Ancestral Protectors means that chosen enemy now has Disadvantage on all attacks against anyone but you, and if they do hit someone else, your allies all have Resistance to their attacks. This is a great way to boost the defenses if your frontliners, and incentivize the enemies to focus on you. But the thing is, you're 60+ feet away, so the enemy is unlikely to be able to be able to reach you to attack you. Even if they do reach you, you have Resistance against BPS, plus Uncanny Dodge.

The main downside is that the Ancestral Protectors debuff only affects on enemy per turn and only applies to attacks, so it isn't as helpful against spellcasters or other enemies with abilities that require saving throws. But you've got a Paladin aura to help the frontliners with those.

This Ancestral Guardian/Soul Knife works especially well on races with increased movement like a Tabaxi or Centaur, or special movement options like Aarakocra/Fairy/Owlin flight or Dhampir spider climb. Plus you get +10' movement at Barbarian 5, and can Cunning Action Dash when needed. These all mesh together to let you zoom in and out of 60' throwing range, to position yourself more than 60' away from your tagged enemy between your turns, and potentially up in the air on on the wall/ceiling, further reducing their ability to reach you and make non-Disadvantaged/Resisted attacks.

A nice additional synergy between these two classes is that the Danger Sense ability from Barbarian 2 pairs nicely with the Rogue's DEX save proficiency and Evasion. You now have a high DEX score + DEX save Proficiency + Advantage on DEX saves, and typically will take no damage when you make these DEX saves thanks to Evasion.

This combo would seem to fit several useful roles in this particular party:
-You're a rogue, for traps/scouting/etc.
-You're an off-tank
-You're support for the Padlock/Cleric/EK frontliners, granting Resistance and reducing the number of hits they're taking
-You're a ranged attacker

Point Buy could look something like:
STR 13
DEX 15+2
CON 13+1
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 10