[3.5] Wizard Build Advice

[Fuzzy Math]

Trying to step out of my comfort zone by building an arcane full caster. Usually play martials or rogues, occasionally divine casters without diving into metamagics outside of DMM+Persist, with one or two times playing a bard. As you can tell, I'm typically support focused either with weapons/HP or buffing, so I'll give all the info I think is important and can go from there.

Epic level campaign, currently 23rd.

Books Available:
Non-Campaign Specific Books
Core
Complete Series
Races of X Series
Epic Level Handbook

Table Banned Books
Anything psionic-related
3.0 material, excepting Arms and Equipment Guide
3rd-party/homebrew
Dragon/Dungeon Magazines/Draconomicon

Build
Race: Human (Can suggest something else)
Stats: STR 13, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 28*, WIS 16, CHA 11
Alignment: C/N
Classes: Wizard 3, Master Specialist 3, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7, Wild Mage 10**
Specialized School: Abjuration Banned Schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (Open to convincing on banned schools)
Feats Chosen so far: Spell Focus (Abjuration), Magical Aptitude, Quicken Spell
Open Feats: Six
Possible ACF's: Eidetic Spellcaster, Imbued Staff
* Purchased a Tome of Clear Thought
**I'm pretty set on Wild Mage as a PrC; I'm rather enamored by the randomness of it.

Party Members
Sorcerer (Evocation focused, I think. They tend to use Prismatic Wall, fire, and electricity spells a lot.)
Cleric (Run of the mill, summons hound archons often)
Factotum/Chameleon
Wizard (Generalist, I believe.)

I'm not necessarily looking to optimize, but I would like to be functional (excluding the odd wild mage mishap :smallbiggrin:). My understanding of magics are somewhat limited; I understand the spells as written, but the metamagics are where things get confusing for me. For example, the sorcerer and wizard are able to cast more than one spell a round, so I can only assume meta is involved. The sorcerer seems to be focused on the blasting and the generalist wizard seems to lean towards problem-solving; I think what I have in my mind's eye is hindering enemy casters as much as possible. Spell recommendations are welcome, especially things that cause a modicum of randomness!

[Particle_Man]

The metamagic feat you want is Quicken Spell. This allows you to cast a spell as a swift action, which lets you use your standard action to cast a different spell (hence two spells per round).

[Biggus]

The metamagic feat you want is Quicken Spell. This allows you to cast a spell as a swift action, which lets you use your standard action to cast a different spell (hence two spells per round).

There's also the epic feat Multispell, which allows you to cast an additional quickened spell in a round.

[Anthrowhale]

For a wizard, Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought are pretty compelling. If you get the spell Arcane Spellsurge in addition there is little need for quicken spell since you can cast prepared spells as a swift action plus an Uncanny Forethought spell.

For a wild mage, Practiced Spellcaster is typically recommended to remediate the downside of wild magic.

Magical Aptitude isn't buying you much. Is that for flavor?

In terms of other feats, wizards often get various metamagics, but which depends on what role you want to fill in the party. For an anti-spellcaster wizard...

Consider the spell Battlemagic Perception which allows you to counter a spell as a 'free action'.
Consider Celerity, which allows you to go out of turn. If you hit a spellcaster with a damaging spell (say, an orb) as they are trying to cast, they likely lose the spell. To deal with the downside of Celerity, you might pick up Quick Recovery.
Reciprocal Gyre is a particularly mean spell to nail on a spellcaster with a buffstack. Highly specialized, but right in your niche.
Improved Initiative + Nerveskitter is good for going first. Any other initiative boosters are welcome.
In general, causing spellcasters to not be able to react is great. "go first and hit them with daze" is a decent strategy.
In high level play, Disjunction is a supernuker. If you are concerned about destroying items, cast Time Stop first.

[Quertus]

So, the party is “caster, caster, caster, skill monkey?, and you (caster)”? All sound, from your description, to be “published NPC” levels of non-optimized. Sounds like fun! :smallbiggrin:

So, yeah, Quicken Spell is the metamagic you’re after. For +4 spell levels, you can cast a spell as a free action. So, quickened Fireball takes a 7th level spell slot.

Then there’s two epic feats that help with Quicken (well, four, but the other two are redundant): Multispell, and Automatic Quicken Spell.

Multispell can be taken more than once; each time you take it, you gain an additional free action, usable only to cast a spell. Note that immediate action spells (like Nerveskitter) eat a free action from the next round.

Automatic [metamagic], in this case, Automatic Quicken Spell, can be taken 3 times (each). The first time, it applies the (Quicken) metamagic for free to all your spells level 1-3 (so your Quickened Fireball is back to a 3rd level slot); the second and third times, it adds it to 4-6 and 7-9, respectively.

That… might be all the optimization you need in order to hang with the party you described.

That said, very gently poke your GM about Epic Spells. If they’re on the table, you’ll want to be ready to use them (max out Spellcraft (because no Wizard would ever do that otherwise) and K: Religion, and taking Leadership should cover you on that front).

EDIT:
In high level play, Disjunction is a supernuker. If you are concerned about destroying items, cast Time Stop first.

I don’t follow. What does Time Stop have to do with Mordenkainen’s* Disjunction?

* since my account is named “Quertus”, I’m kinda honor-bound to follow his scheme of insisting that the spell’s creator gets credit, and not have their name removed.

[Anthrowhale]

I don’t follow. What does Time Stop have to do with Mordenkainen’s* Disjunction?

Some people don't want to use the Big D because it destroys loot. Time Stop says:

You cannot ... harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time...
which fixes that issue.

[Fero]

Quicken is great at high levels as noted. Persist (without MM reducers) is so very good. If you want to cast more spells, also consider Twin Spell and Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (so your familiar can cast spells). Consider how your low level spells can combo with your abilities. For example, you can use the 1st level silent image to mimic your Veils, potentially tricking foes. Another good trick at high levels is to take Sleight of hand CC, combine with a skill boosting item, and the false theyrgy skill trick to make enemy casters think you are casting different spells. On a related note, still, silent and invisible spell would be great with Prismatic Spheres and walls.

[Fuzzy Math]

For a wizard, Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought are pretty compelling. If you get the spell Arcane Spellsurge in addition there is little need for quicken spell since you can cast prepared spells as a swift action plus an Uncanny Forethought spell.

For a wild mage, Practiced Spellcaster is typically recommended to remediate the downside of wild magic.

Magical Aptitude isn't buying you much. Is that for flavor?

It's a feat requirement for Wild Mage.


In terms of other feats, wizards often get various metamagics, but which depends on what role you want to fill in the party. For an anti-spellcaster wizard...

Consider the spell Battlemagic Perception which allows you to counter a spell as a 'free action'.
Consider Celerity, which allows you to go out of turn. If you hit a spellcaster with a damaging spell (say, an orb) as they are trying to cast, they likely lose the spell. To deal with the downside of Celerity, you might pick up Quick Recovery.
Reciprocal Gyre is a particularly mean spell to nail on a spellcaster with a buffstack. Highly specialized, but right in your niche.
Improved Initiative + Nerveskitter is good for going first. Any other initiative boosters are welcome.
In general, causing spellcasters to not be able to react is great. "go first and hit them with daze" is a decent strategy.
In high level play, Disjunction is a supernuker. If you are concerned about destroying items, cast Time Stop first.


Battlemagic Perception: Countering spells requires me to have the same spell prepped or have Dispel Magic/GDM prepped, yes?

[Anthrowhale]

It's a feat requirement for Wild Mage.
Got it.


Battlemagic Perception: Countering spells requires me to have the same spell prepped or have Dispel Magic/GDM prepped, yes?
Yes, although Improved Counterspell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCounterspell) allows you to use a spell of the same school.

[Fuzzy Math]

So, the party is “caster, caster, caster, skill monkey?, and you (caster)”? All sound, from your description, to be “published NPC” levels of non-optimized. Sounds like fun! :smallbiggrin:

I'm currently playing the melee bruiser, who isn't really doing much beyond comic relief(CG Half Ogre Barb 6/Fighter 2/Hulking Hurler 2/War Hulk 12). Think Lennie from "Of Mice and Men". While it can be entertaining, most of the combat is resolved by time my initiative rolls along. If it's not, there's so much BFC between myself and the main baddie of the moment, that by the time I get there, the casters have already finished the job. My DM makes frustrating use of Exceptional Deflection or other spells that negate ranged attacks, so my main tactic of throwing really big things doesn't come into play often, so I'm trying to get in on the "action" by coming up with a caster should my hamfisted smasher shuffle off.

[Biggus]

Some people don't want to use the Big D because it destroys loot. Time Stop says:

which fixes that issue.

Time Stop also says


While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells

which would stop Disjunction doing anything at all as far as I can see.

[Quertus]

Some people don't want to use the Big D because it destroys loot. Time Stop says:

which fixes that issue.

Did they mess it up in 3.5? Because, in 3e (3.0), you couldn’t affect others with your attacks or spells (Although you could “create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the Time Stop spell ends (the spells’ durations do not begin until the Time Stop is over).”

I think that Mordenkainen’s Disjunction would have 0 effect on others inside a Time Stop (Although it would destroy unattended loot), whereas a variant of the spell that had a duration would take effect once Time Stop ended, working normally.

So, unless they changed the wording in 3.5, I don’t see that working.

[schreier]

They actually "nerfed" automatic quicken spell ... it is now 1 level per time you take it instead of three (Automatic Quicken changed, see the Epic section in the Complete Arcane; now you can automatically quicken only 0 and 1st level spells if you take the feat once and you add only a level of spell each time you take the feat)

Edited - just realized Eldritch Master was Dragon so out. You could consider rainbow servant, but that costs spellcaster levels (less important at epic though)

Still recommend Domain Wizard with Spontaneous Divination and Archamage though

[Anthrowhale]

...



which would stop Disjunction doing anything at all as far as I can see.

Let's look closely.

The Time Stop protection clause applies to creatures and their items but not spells.

...other creatures are invulnerable to your ... spells ... You cannot ... harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature... (Emphasis mine.)

Big D however works on spells directly, bypassing the invulnerability clause of Time Stop (which again does not apply to spells).

All magical effects ... are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)...

Time Stop prevents us from affecting creatures (summoned monsters for example) and their items (a benefit: loot stays intact), but nothing in Time Stop prevents the direct effect of big D on spells.

It's a cute high level trick.

[Quertus]

They actually "nerfed" automatic quicken spell ... it is now 1 level per time you take it instead of three (Automatic Quicken changed, see the Epic section in the Complete Arcane; now you can automatically quicken only 0 and 1st level spells if you take the feat once and you add only a level of spell each time you take the feat)

Sadness. Can’t complain too much - despite nobody but me ever taking it (?!), I always felt it was a bit strong.


Let's look closely.

The Time Stop protection clause applies to creatures and their items but not spells.
(Emphasis mine.)

Big D however works on spells directly, bypassing the invulnerability clause of Time Stop (which again does not apply to spells).

Time Stop prevents us from affecting creatures (summoned monsters for example) and their items (a benefit: loot stays intact), but nothing in Time Stop prevents the direct effect of big D on spells.

It's a cute high level trick.

That’s… ok, fine, I’ll accept that as valid English. Not at all what I read, so I’ll put it in “multiple valid readings of RAW” category.

However, I will point out that it would be equally valid for Wizards to slay Jedi with Time Stop (“luminous beings are we, not this crude matter“), as it only stops you from affecting the Jedi, not their meat suit. Whereas other beings might steal your soul under Time Stop, because that’s your soul, not you. From a certain point of view. (Unless Wizards actually managed to successfully and unambiguously define “creature”.)

[Anthrowhale]

However, I will point out that it would be equally valid for Wizards to slay Jedi with Time Stop (“luminous beings are we, not this crude matter“), as it only stops you from affecting the Jedi, not their meat suit. Whereas other beings might steal your soul under Time Stop, because that’s your soul, not you. From a certain point of view. (Unless Wizards actually managed to successfully and unambiguously define “creature”.)

Hmm, I disagree about Jedi. Separating soul from body permanently sounds like a vulnerability, and the Jedi are invulnerable according to Time Stop.

I'm not quite following your thinking. Could you answer a few questions? If a wizard is inside of Time Stop and casts a Disjunction would it dispel a previously cast:

Fog Cloud (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm)?
Bull's Strength (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm)?
Flame Arrow (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameArrow.htm) in someone's possession?
a fiendish dire rat created by Summon Monster I (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm)?

And what's your reasoning?

[northernbard80]

Don't overlook item creation feats!

As a wizard, you get Scribe Scroll for free; take advantage of it!! Scrolls are cheap to make and especially at low levels, you'll have extra spells against foes. I always have my wizards (as well as clerics) scribe scrolls during downtime.

I strongly recommend Craft Wand too. In addition to scrolls, that's another source of more spells for when your own are exhausted. A wand of Magic Missile and a wand of Mage Armor can be a boon.

[Quertus]

Hmm, I disagree about Jedi. Separating soul from body permanently sounds like a vulnerability, and the Jedi are invulnerable according to Time Stop.

I'm not quite following your thinking. Could you answer a few questions? If a wizard is inside of Time Stop and casts a Disjunction would it dispel a previously cast:

Fog Cloud (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm)?
Bull's Strength (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm)?
Flame Arrow (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameArrow.htm) in someone's possession?
a fiendish dire rat created by Summon Monster I (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm)?

And what's your reasoning?

Ah, sorry, my reasoning was… mostly silly, but went like this: in 3e, normally, anything “within your aura” (my words, not RAW) gets your protection. If you have Immunity to Fire through a spell (Elemental Immunity: Fire?) or item (epic ring?), that Immunity extends to your items.

But if only the “creature” is protected by Time Stop…is the word “creature” defined?

If it is not, then making the “creature” as it’s normally interacted throughout the rules no longer “atomic” while under Time Stop could have unforeseen consequences.

My comment about Jedi was silly, posing the question, “what if it’s what you view as ‘self’ that is protected?”, in which case Jedi meat suits would be vulnerable under Time Stop. (Yes, I know 3e has creatures that lack a concept of self, so this isn’t a reasonable definition of “creature” in 3e.)

However, much more reasonable was the notion that, if “creature” isn’t defined, and things under Time Stop no longer have the implicit protection of “everything that was normally considered atomic is no longer true”, and only the creature (and their items) are protected, then, if the creature’s dwoemers are fair game, then anything else that is not explicitly called out as protected is also fair game. So, the creature’s memories, or their soul, or anything else the GM rules as not part of “the creature”, if the phrase is undefined, could be considered separate from the meat suit creature.

Never mind that, regardless of the definition of “creature”, if dwoemers can be removed, there should also be ways to move, change, or add them. For example, a custom “invert dwoemers” spell, that changes “immunity to fire” to “vulnerability to fire”, for example, should be fair game to use under Time Stop. (Or whatever Incantatrix can do to existing spells, for something with no homebrew required, if you’re not into that kind of thing.)

Does that babble help make any sense of what I was thinking when I warned of unforeseen consequences, especially if “creature” isn’t defined in RAW?

To answer your questions, (and shooting from the hip, as my tables have, in the 2+ decades since 3e came out, as far as my senile mind remembers, used Time Stop once, and Mordenkainen’s Dysfunction NEVER), I guess, with my interpretation (and, again, not saying yours is invalid), I would, unless someone at my table corrected me, believe… yes, no, no, …no? That is, anything within a creature’s “aura” is atomic, and gains their protections. So Bull’s Strength and Flame Arrow are protected; Fog Cloud is not (unless it’s somehow an Animated Object, or Possessed, or being “worn” by a mist form Vampire or air elemental, or something… all of which are AFAIK impossible).

The summoned creature… honestly, I’ve never seen anyone try to Dispel a summons (counter? Kill? Ignore? Sure. But not Dispel), so I don’t actually know from experience if that’s possible. If it’s not, then Disjunction does nothing; if it is, then it depends on primacy (ie, is a summons “a spell that holds a creature” or “a creature that holds a spell”). Obviously, if the monster was summoned by a trap, the trap is destroyed.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Thanks, that helps.


is the word “creature” defined?
The glossary in PHB says:


A living or otherwise active being, not an object....
There are also further rules around the interaction of area spells with worn objects in the magic section.

My best understanding is that there are essentially 3 primitives in D&D: Creatures, objects, and effects. Objects (the default) are the basic things (shovel, hut, arrow). Creatures ("active beings") act on and with objects in the world and with other creatures. Effects (typically but not always from spells) usually operate on objects or creatures (and not vice-versa). I don't think you can eliminate "effects" as a primitive---they clearly are not creatures or objects.

I don't have any evidence that creatures have a 'protective aura' w.r.t. spells. Do you? (There is evidence of an aura of protection w.r.t. items given the "unattended items don't save" rule.) Some evidence against is provided by Antimagic Field which suppresses the spells, but leaves the creature.



Never mind that, regardless of the definition of “creature”, if dwoemers can be removed, there should also be ways to move, change, or add them. For example, a custom “invert dwoemers” spell, that changes “immunity to fire” to “vulnerability to fire”, for example, should be fair game to use under Time Stop. (Or whatever Incantatrix can do to existing spells, for something with no homebrew required, if you’re not into that kind of thing.)

The set of published ways to change one effect into another seem pretty limited, so I would not be surprised if a DM limits custom stuff significantly. Aside from Incantatrix there are two dispel variants.

Reaving dispel is another example of an operation on spell effects which appears allowed. For Slashing Dispel, I'd allow the dispel, but disallow the damage due to Time Stop's invulnerability clause.

[Quertus]

Thanks, that helps.


The glossary in PHB says:

There are also further rules around the interaction of area spells with worn objects in the magic section.

So, “creature” is defined, but not in any way that would definitively indicate that its soul or memories are any more part of the “creature” keyword than its dwoemers are? Because that’s the level of pedantic (fine, pedantry) with which I’m evaluating this.

(Senility willing, I’ll check on the origin of my “aura” line of thought when I’m not afb)

[icefractal]

If buff spells aren't considered part of the creature, do they get left behind when teleporting?

[Anthrowhale]

So, “creature” is defined, but not in any way that would definitively indicate that its soul or memories are any more part of the “creature” keyword than its dwoemers are?
I'm not really following how souls and memories are relevant? These are properties of a creature while spell effects are not. Creature-targeting spell effects are more like clothing in this sense, something that you put on and take off on a regular basis. However, there is no spell equivalent of the item-specific protection clauses as far as I know.


If buff spells aren't considered part of the creature, do they get left behind when teleporting?
The 'if' seems irrelevant to answering the question?

Globe of Invulnerability is left behind while teleporting. Bull's Strength is not left behind by teleporting. The spell descriptions are explicit about whether a buff attaches to a creature or to a location.

[Fuzzy Math]

Folks, before the high-level spell antics sidetrack us too far, I'd like to refocus back to what I was asking for by maybe making it more explicit.

Is the build itself viable?

As I've been delving further and further into the depths of my books, there's really not a whole lot I'm getting from Wild Mage, which is a damned shame. The randomness of it would likely cause more consternation at the table, rather than the surprised fun. Random-effect items are a quite limited list, the Rod of Wonder effects will wear thin after a while, and while the boost to CL could be a potential boon, I'm finding the amount of spells per day to be rather limited because of metamagics. Outside of increasing my INT, how do I get more spells per day? Or am I just not understanding how to play a wizard correctly?

[icefractal]

I mean, higher Int is always good, even aside from DCs, as it gives both stamina and versatility. You should be able to get it to at least 38 (18 + 2 age + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 item + 2 succubus), which is a fair amount of spells/day, and it can go higher than that.

Beyond that ... well there's Astral Projection to re-use Pearls of Power, scrolls, etc. Might be too high-op for your campaign though. As another option, there's just using Pearls of Power normally.

[Anthrowhale]

Wild Mage is an "ok" choice. With practiced spellcaster you can make the caster level minimum = character level, with a chance of an upside. However, this only requires a 1-level dip.

Iot7fv is a solid defensive prestige class.

Given the feats that you already have and the goal of being a counter-caster, you might consider instead archmage. The Mastery of Counterspelling ability is on target and the caster level bonuses are nice.

For a counter-caster wizard build, something like:

Diviner 5/Master Specialist 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Archmage 1/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4 would set you up for Mastery of Counterspelling, Improved Counterspelling, Divine Defiance, and the ability to convert spells on the fly into dispels.

[Fuzzy Math]

We can consider the thread closed. Peeping through all of the allowed books, getting all of the prestige options and scenarios tumbling around has caused me a small bout of analysis paralysis, so I'm going to tone it down from a wizard. (Might have tried to take on something too big for my first time! :smallbiggrin: ) Perhaps a warlock will be more my speed; not as many options as to be overwhelming, but enough to feel like I can do something to contribute. Thanks for all the advice, folks!