Making the most of the Swift Ambusher

[UltraShiko]

So if you all have seen my last post on the factotum build, I decided that I wanted to focus my build on a scouting character rather than spreading myself so thin. So I leaned into the Swift Ambusher.

I chose the ambusher over the hunter because I saw this character as more of a rogue than a ranger. Obviously a 1 level dip into Ranger to get both isn’t impossible either, I just would prefer to focus moreso on Scout x Rogue than Scout x Ranger.

Now I understand that I could just focus on the rogue, but Scout gets a lot of passive abilities that help with…ya know scouting. And since I’m leaning into the melee side of things, Skirmish and the extra movement will be invaluable. And Rogue gets Use Magic Device unlike Ranger, so a few levels there will greatly improve my utility.

My main concern is the attacking attribute and weapon. Dex is the go-to, but this requires more investment than Strength. DM is allowing Feycraft weapons to help, but I also need to grab Shadow Blade, which either needs a lvl 1 dip into swordsage or a three feat investment. Normally the lvl 1 dip is preferred, however this slows down Skirmish and SA progression, especially if I dip Ranger. Whereas strength will want Power Attack, which I can shore up with Knowledge Devotion.

In regards to weaponry, the go-to is twf to maximize precision damage, which the build relies on. However twf is kinda expensive. EWP can get me the Spiked Chain which is accessible to Shadow Blade, and a 1 lvl dip into Exoticist fighter can get me this and a feat. However this is still fairly expensive. I also need to consider if I can or cannot get pounce or spring attack. A 2 level dip into lion totem barb gets me this, but delays SA and skirmish by one level.

I also want to try and pick up some knowledges to aid in scouting. I was thinking if I make Rogue the minority in this build, I can grab Planar Rogue for Knowledge Planes, keep it below level 6, and use Knowledge Devotion for Arcana. Scout is nice enough to give Nature and Dungeoneering for us, and the rest don’t really matter aside from maybe Local for Gather Information, but I’m probably going to dump charisma. A cloistered cleric dip can net me Knowledge and Travel Devotion, but will alos **** up my BANB.

DM is allowing two flaws so help get me started. I was thinking either Lesser Tiefling for the good bonuses, or Savage Tiefling for the Outsider subtype. Both are LA+0, both give Darkvision, and both gives +2 to Hide and Bluff checks, which is nice for a scout. And tiefling are cool. The LA+1 is off the table because DM banned level buyoffs and Templates. So bo Shadow Template for this boi. I can also be a human is a tiefling, just without the darkvision. It’s crunchy, but Human is S-tier for a reason. I’d personally prefer the tiefling in all honesty.

Fortunately my rolls were generous. DM let me roll 6 times and has given me the option to pick the one I like and swap stats around. I’d like everyone’s opinion on which to pick.

18, 14, 10, 12, 17, 13
14, 12, 17, 15, 17, 14

Appreciate the support!

[Gorthawar]

I've toyed around with a build combining swift hunter and swift ambusher in the past that gets a fair bit of feats in the mix as well that might work as a starting point for you.

Hunter Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Ranger 6/Scout 4/Feat Rogue 8

If I counted correctly it should end up with 5d6/+4 skirmish (7d6/+6 with improved skirmish), 4 favourite enemies that are always affected by skirmish, 5 free fighter feats, twf, itwf, swift hunter, swift ambusher, improved skirmish and 5 free general feats as well as bab of 17 and an average of 7 skill points per level.

I really like swift hunter as it stop that pesky immunity to skirmish ruining your day. 4 favourite enemies should cover the worst offender (undead, constructs and elementals) with one to spare.

[UltraShiko]

I've toyed around with a build combining swift hunter and swift ambusher in the past that gets a fair bit of feats in the mix as well that might work as a starting point for you.

Hunter Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Ranger 6/Scout 4/Feat Rogue 8

If I counted correctly it should end up with 5d6/+4 skirmish (7d6/+6 with improved skirmish), 4 favourite enemies that are always affected by skirmish, 5 free fighter feats, twf, itwf, swift hunter, swift ambusher, improved skirmish and 5 free general feats as well as bab of 17 and an average of 7 skill points per level.

I really like swift hunter as it stop that pesky immunity to skirmish ruining your day. 4 favourite enemies should cover the worst offender (undead, constructs and elementals) with one to spare.

How interesting. I assume that you pumped strength due to lack of shadow blade?

Also would SA fighter work with Ambusher? Because the feat specifically states that it works with Rogue levels

[Gorthawar]

How interesting. I assume that you pumped strength due to lack of shadow blade?

Also would SA fighter work with Ambusher? Because the feat specifically states that it works with Rogue levels

I've never fully build it further than the stub I posted. I was just messing around with skirmish builds (mostly around unseen seer) and was disappointed with the lack of feats so I looked at the combination of swift ambusher and feat rogue. The SA fighter is only used to get the 1d6 SA to qualify for the feat it doesn't add to the benefits of the feat itself.

The build could be focussed on str indeed as the ranger levels give twf and itwf independent of dex but its not required. Adding a level of cleric for travel and knowledge devotion or a level of swordsage for some juicy maneuvers, a stance and access to shadow blade are all good options.

[UltraShiko]

I've never fully build it further than the stub I posted. I was just messing around with skirmish builds (mostly around unseen seer) and was disappointed with the lack of feats so I looked at the combination of swift ambusher and feat rogue. The SA fighter is only used to get the 1d6 SA to qualify for the feat it doesn't add to the benefits of the feat itself.

The build could be focussed on str indeed as the ranger levels give twf and itwf independent of dex but its not required. Adding a level of cleric for travel and knowledge devotion or a level of swordsage for some juicy maneuvers, a stance and access to shadow blade are all good options.

Yeah, Ranger definitely helps a lot more than I expected. I knew the Favored foe was a big deal, but I don’t think I can afford to pass up the twf feats it gives. Not unless I’m going Spiked Chain at least

Swordsage 1 will probably be needed here. If I’m rocking Tiefling, I should get the nost out of my +2 to Dex. And on top of Shadow Blade, I get Weapon Focus and manuevers to asidt in scouting (Counter Charge, Sudden Leap, and Distracting Ember.

Any ACFs you recommend? Crippling Strike for Rogue bypasses the SA immunity. Could get the Dex rage from Barbarian to maximize profit.

And which of the rolls do you suggest?

[holbita]

I love swift ambusher, such a great MONK and rogue multiclass.

Those halfling monks 5 trading flurry of blows for skirmish... they are very nice, specially if you add ascetic rogue to turn those 15 rogue levels into unarmed strike progression.

[Gorthawar]

You can drop 1 level of rogue without losing out on skirmish damage and it will only cost you a fighter feat and 1bab. Swordsage would get you a lot of nice things and is certainly a good dip.

Concerning ACFs I'd probably swap trap finding of the rogue for poison use as you get it through scout anyways.
The lightbringer / penetrating strike ACFs that allow half dice SA against immune opponents that you flank might be helpful but as you only do 1d6 anyways not necessary. Then again trap sense isn't that great either.
To get crippling strike you need 10 rogue levels.
You could take the master of the wild ACF for an extra feat at the cost of ranger spellcasting which depends on your preference. Spells are probably more powerful.
I'm sure there is a decent ACF that you can get instead of the animal companion as well.

I'd go with the overall higher roll with the two 17s but that's just me never having such high results :)

[UltraShiko]

You can drop 1 level of rogue without losing out on skirmish damage and it will only cost you a fighter feat and 1bab. Swordsage would get you a lot of nice things and is certainly a good dip.

Concerning ACFs I'd probably swap trap finding of the rogue for poison use as you get it through scout anyways.
The lightbringer / penetrating strike ACFs that allow half dice SA against immune opponents that you flank might be helpful but as you only do 1d6 anyways not necessary. Then again trap sense isn't that great either.
To get crippling strike you need 10 rogue levels.
You could take the master of the wild ACF for an extra feat at the cost of ranger spellcasting which depends on your preference. Spells are probably more powerful.
I'm sure there is a decent ACF that you can get instead of the animal companion as well.

I'd go with the overall higher roll with the two 17s but that's just me never having such high results :)

Loving the feedback.

So is the outsider type worth trading for the +2 to Int? I’ve heard that there are some crazy shenanigans that go on involving alter self and immunities if you have outsider.

Poison Use is so tempting, though I’d probably be better suited with grabbing Master of Poisons instead if I go that route. The chance to poison yourself is so minimal as is, may as well get the swift action while I’m at it.

I’ll have to look at the ranger spell list again. Personally, I don’t care for a lot of the animal specific ones and Scout gets their own Pass without Trace in Trackless Step. Though going Urban Ranger might be interesting. I don’t really care for Wid Empathy and my animal companion would be best served as a mini familiar to help with scouting. Hell zi believe there’s an ACF that gets me that lmao

[UltraShiko]

You can drop 1 level of rogue without losing out on skirmish damage and it will only cost you a fighter feat and 1bab. Swordsage would get you a lot of nice things and is certainly a good dip.

Concerning ACFs I'd probably swap trap finding of the rogue for poison use as you get it through scout anyways.
The lightbringer / penetrating strike ACFs that allow half dice SA against immune opponents that you flank might be helpful but as you only do 1d6 anyways not necessary. Then again trap sense isn't that great either.
To get crippling strike you need 10 rogue levels.
You could take the master of the wild ACF for an extra feat at the cost of ranger spellcasting which depends on your preference. Spells are probably more powerful.
I'm sure there is a decent ACF that you can get instead of the animal companion as well.

I'd go with the overall higher roll with the two 17s but that's just me never having such high results :)

Following up on the Spiked Chain, I just learned that I can take an alternate combat style that nets me EWP and Improved Trip. Would probably go Str for this build and I wouldn’t need Pounce. I do sacrifice precision damage on the tradeoff, but both builds look solid. I can probably pull off Scouting with 14 in Dex

[Gorthawar]

Loving the feedback.

So is the outsider type worth trading for the +2 to Int? I’ve heard that there are some crazy shenanigans that go on involving alter self and immunities if you have outsider.

Poison Use is so tempting, though I’d probably be better suited with grabbing Master of Poisons instead if I go that route. The chance to poison yourself is so minimal as is, may as well get the swift action while I’m at it.

I’ll have to look at the ranger spell list again. Personally, I don’t care for a lot of the animal specific ones and Scout gets their own Pass without Trace in Trackless Step. Though going Urban Ranger might be interesting. I don’t really care for Wid Empathy and my animal companion would be best served as a mini familiar to help with scouting. Hell zi believe there’s an ACF that gets me that lmao


Following up on the Spiked Chain, I just learned that I can take an alternate combat style that nets me EWP and Improved Trip. Would probably go Str for this build and I wouldn’t need Pounce. I do sacrifice precision damage on the tradeoff, but both builds look solid. I can probably pull off Scouting with 14 in Dex

Alter self is super powerful and being an outsider kicks it into overdrive. We don't use the spell at our gaming table as it does just a little too much. Just like polymorph for that matter. The +2 int are not that important for you as they only translate into 1 skillpoint and +1 on the roll of int based skills unlike the factotum builds discussed in the other thread where it adds to everything.

If you take scout and rogue levels you have trap finding twice and afaik can only trade it for poison use or the ability to identify religious magic items. If you're taking master of poisons anyway then I'd go for identify as well but otherwise poison use has its use as well.

The familiar acf is great for a character like this as it uses all your skills and you get around 7 points per level minimum before int and potential human bo uses. Also with 3/4 of your HP + the bigger hit dice it is not as squishy as a wizards familiar. However you don't have the ability to share spells much with it which will decrease it's protection significantly.

Last bit not least I'm not quite sure what you want to achieve with the spiked chain. Unfortunately skirmish damage only applies to attack made during your turn if I'm not mistaken. As such you would not apply it to any aoo and without pounce would only be able to do skirmish damage once per turn.

[UltraShiko]

Alter self is super powerful and being an outsider kicks it into overdrive. We don't use the spell at our gaming table as it does just a little too much. Just like polymorph for that matter. The +2 int are not that important for you as they only translate into 1 skillpoint and +1 on the roll of int based skills unlike the factotum builds discussed in the other thread where it adds to everything.

If you take scout and rogue levels you have trap finding twice and afaik can only trade it for poison use or the ability to identify religious magic items. If you're taking master of poisons anyway then I'd go for identify as well but otherwise poison use has its use as well.

The familiar acf is great for a character like this as it uses all your skills and you get around 7 points per level minimum before int and potential human bo uses. Also with 3/4 of your HP + the bigger hit dice it is not as squishy as a wizards familiar. However you don't have the ability to share spells much with it which will decrease it's protection significantly.

Last bit not least I'm not quite sure what you want to achieve with the spiked chain. Unfortunately skirmish damage only applies to attack made during your turn if I'm not mistaken. As such you would not apply it to any aoo and without pounce would only be able to do skirmish damage once per turn.

I guess my only concern now is how to get the other knowledge skills. The planar rogue won’t work if I invest more than 6th levels because the replacement features aren’t good. And I don’t believe I could take a variant if I’m already doing fighter rogue.

I could grab Educated. It’s an investment, but all those extra skill points could go into pumping knowledge skills. Combine Collector of Stories and Knowledge Devotion and I’ll achieve up to +10 if I roll well enough. And that extra damage is crucial to twf.

Another concern I have is spells. Is there a way to get alter self on a ranger? Urban Ranger has some nice spells, but I do miss out on PwT

[lylsyly]

If you want arcane spells on a ranger look at the Sword of the Arcane Order feat. I'm not going to say it's an easy way to go butit IS doable.

[UltraShiko]

If you want arcane spells on a ranger look at the Sword of the Arcane Order feat. I'm not going to say it's an easy way to go butit IS doable.

Nah, it’s not that important. I could just ask the party wizard or get a magic item for it.

Do you recommend Feycraft shortswords? It’ll be a bitch and a half to get two. Is the 3k gp worth it, or should I just gran Weapon Finesse

[lylsyly]

Honestly?

First you wanted to do a spiked chain build. Yes it costs a feat (or 2 if you pick up Weapom Finesse). But it is a Reach/Tripping weapon the also threatens adjacent. I happen to have love for them in certain melee builds (but that is mostly because of our table's house rules).

Now you are looking at TWF? TWF is a suboptimal combat style which is highly feat intensive for not much gain.

I was a Scout in the Army for 13.5 years. Main Job: ride forward in front of the division until we found the enemy. Kill a few tanks from 4 kilometers, then fade back and set up to do it again. Once the main forces became engaged the we would run along the enemies flank sniping.

Archery is also feat intensive but doable.

Scout 1 / Ranger 1 (Mystic Ranger from DR #336? if you can) / Scout+3 (taking the Swift Hunter feat with your Scout 4 Bonus Feat) / Ranger +15 (again, Mystic Ranger if you can swing it). Look at one of the archery handbooks for the best feats.

The Ranger (especially Mystic Ranger) spell list is actually fairly good (Swift Haste as a 2nd level spell is my fav).

If you want to be a Scout be a Scout. If you want to be a damage dealer be a Barbarian!

[UltraShiko]

Honestly?

First you wanted to do a spiked chain build. Yes it costs a feat (or 2 if you pick up Weapom Finesse). But it is a Reach/Tripping weapon the also threatens adjacent. I happen to have love for them in certain melee builds (but that is mostly because of our table's house rules).

Now you are looking at TWF? TWF is a suboptimal combat style which is highly feat intensive for not much gain.

I was a Scout in the Army for 13.5 years. Main Job: ride forward in front of the division until we found the enemy. Kill a few tanks from 4 kilometers, then fade back and set up to do it again. Once the main forces became engaged the we would run along the enemies flank sniping.

Archery is also feat intensive but doable.

Scout 1 / Ranger 1 (Mystic Ranger from DR #336? if you can) / Scout+3 (taking the Swift Hunter feat with your Scout 4 Bonus Feat) / Ranger +15 (again, Mystic Ranger if you can swing it). Look at one of the archery handbooks for the best feats.

The Ranger (especially Mystic Ranger) spell list is actually fairly good (Swift Haste as a 2nd level spell is my fav).

If you want to be a Scout be a Scout. If you want to be a damage dealer be a Barbarian!

Funny thing was that the spiked chain discussion was an older topic someone brought back to life lmao. I was set on the swift ambusher route until the guy gave me his tripping build. And now I’ve got two PC ideas lol.

The TWF was for the Rogue side of the swift ambusher. Sneak attacks are easier to pop with melee than with ranged. Though clearly ranged has the advantage in a swift hunter set up.

The idea for twf was to get the most out of the precision damage swift ambusher focuses on. Though I’m not opposed to looking into archery either. I just picture this guy as capable in a fight if someone gets near him

[lylsyly]

The beauty of 3.5 is the versatility.. want to be mostly ranged but able to do melee too? take a level of barbarian and two hand a falchion with it's crit range. The thing about scout and skirmish is you have to move. Move action and standard action equals one attack. Archery done right gives you more. Of course doing a level of barbarian to get pounce gives you a full attack on a charge which can also trigger skirmish if you move enough. There are many ways do do it. Just depends on what you are actually looking for.

[Gorthawar]

You could be mixing up thrown weapon attacks and twf with something along these lines:

1 scout1: skirmish 1d6, trap finding, brutal throw
2 barb1 (hunter, lion spirit totem): favorite enemy, pounce
3 clr1 (cloistered): know devotion, travel devotion, animal devotion, turn undead, WF(javelin)
4 barb2: uncanny dodge, rapid shot

At this point you can buff yourself with animal devotion for extra strenght or flight and then move with travel devotion and throw 2 attacks using rapid shot the round after with str to hit and damage and an additional +1d6 skirmish. Bab is quite low at 2 but WF and knowledge devotion will help hitting and do some extra damage. If you use the skilled city dweller ACF you can have knowledge nature, dungeon, religion, local and arcane (from devotion) as class skills.

5 scout2: imp uncanny dodge, battle fortitude
6 scout3: fast movement, trackless step, skirmish 1d6/+1, swift hunter
7 rgr 1 (planar (UA), arcane hunter): track, fav enemy arcane
8 rgr 2: twf, favorite enemy, skirmish +2d6/+1
9 scout4: PBS, Tormtor school or imp skirmish

Almost everything is in place now. With swift hunter you can always do precision damage to your favorite enemies (arcane, undead and constructs are decent choices but you might prefer elementals if you come across them more often). You can use your javelins in melee or ranged depending on the situation and get to move and full attack every round thanks to pounce/travel devotion triggering skirmish. Ranged you get 4 attacks with twf and rapid shot and in melee you get 3 attacks with twf and an extra ranged attack with Tormtor school if you didn't use your swift action yet. Either style runs of strength to hit. Also by chosing planar ranger from UA you can add knowledge the planes as class skill which means you should have all opponents covered with knowledge devotion.

Add another 4 level of ranger and you reach full build at level 13. This will net you endurance, some spells (you could trade for feats but the options are pretty poor unless your DM widens it), and animal companion / familiar that you can trade for distracting shot, another favorite enemy and last but not least itwf. Your skirmish damage goes up as well. You can also take imp skirmish now to boost your damage further if you didn't take it earlier.

At this point you have 6 attacks with itwf and rapid shot dealing 5d6 skirmish damage +1PBS+1tormtor school+ know devotion +str or half str on all of them if you moved with travel devotion.

Alternatively you can charge and get 5 melee attacks and 1 ranged from tormtor school with similar output.

Either way all attacks use str to hit which you can boost by +6 using animal devotion at this point.

You really need some gloves of endless javelins with this build however.

If you get last level 13 you can just add more Ranger/Scout levels if you want to boost your skirmish damage and nab gtwf without meeting the dex requirements. Alternatively level of SA fighter and 6 levels of feat rogue (+swift ambusher) will get you a lot more feats at the cost of some bab and a dice of skirmish damage.