Wild Shape, Extra Attack, and Martial Arts

[diplomancer]

So, I'm playing a Mercy Monk but not entirely satisfied with him, thinking of multiclassing to Druid, either after level 6 or 8, and was thinking about the interactions between Wildshape, Extra Attack, Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, and Hands of Harm

Here are my questions, in order of how likely I believe they can work with Wild Shape.

Extra Attack- can work with Wildshape. The Actions in a beast stat block that are weapon attacks are all attacks that can be used with the Attack Action. This is specially clear when you look at humanoid stat blocks. Goblins don't really have a Short Bow action, they take the Attack Action and fire with their short bows. Same reasoning would apply for a wolf.
Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows- I will put these together. I believe that, by a strict reading, a Monk/Druid wildshaped as a Giant Spider could not use a bonus action to make more bite attacks, either just one with Martial Arts or two with Flurry of Blows. But maybe a DM might allow it anyhow. The relevant rules point is whether a Beast's natural attacks count as Unarmed Strikes, and I don't think that, RAW, they do. Whether DM does allow it or not, I believe PC could still just use the regular Martial Arts die to, say, body slam or headbutt his targets instead with the Bonus Action.
Hands of Harm- I may be taking it too literally here, but since the ability says hands of harm, I'd say even if a DM allowed the extra Bite attack(s), he'd not allow it to work with Hands of Harm. Maybe it'd be different if the Beast was one that used a claw attack instead.

What do you guys think?

[stoutstien]

I would stick it out to lv 11.
Lv 6 is a massive boost in both harm and healing utility then 11 practically doubles your ki value for both as well.

[diplomancer]

I would stick it out to lv 11.
Lv 6 is a massive boost in both harm and healing utility then 11 practically doubles your ki value for both as well.

Definitely staying for lv 6. As I've said, breakpoints will be either lvs 6 or 8. As to lv 11, I'm playing a homebrew Tabaxi that has as one of its features a "catnap". Rest for 10 minutes and get half of the benefits of a Short Rest. So level 9 is kinda of nothing (since I already have a climbing speed), and I'm not that Ki-starved (and this whole group is oriented to a "10-minute adventuring day" style too, with about 2 combats per Long Rest, unfortunately, which is one of the reasons I'm thinking of multiclassing).

[stoutstien]

Definitely staying for lv 6. As I've said, breakpoints will be either lvs 6 or 8. As to lv 11, I'm playing a homebrew Tabaxi that has as one of its features a "catnap". Rest for 10 minutes and get half of the benefits of a Short Rest. So level 9 is kinda of nothing (since I already have a climbing speed), and I'm not that Ki-starved (and this whole group is oriented to a "10-minute adventuring day" style too, with about 2 combats per Long Rest, unfortunately, which is one of the reasons I'm thinking of multiclassing).

It's not just the ki it self it doubles. It's the action cost.

Hand of healing gets a100% increase to healing at the cost of reducing your damage by 1 unarmed strike (modified for accuracy).
Hands of harm getting added to FoB is adding 2 unarmed strikes(modified for accuracy) to the automatic damage it deals for the same cost.

If your days are structured like you say then I'd lean on focused aim and enjoy the bonuses EHP from quicken healing with the left overs. You could maintain auto hitting on everything but a nat 1, SS spam, and FoB+ harm.
**Unless turning into animal..more animal(s) based on race?...i see little value in the delay.**

[nickl_2000]

Extra Attack- can work with Wildshape. The Actions in a beast stat block that are weapon attacks are all attacks that can be used with the Attack Action. This is specially clear when you look at humanoid stat blocks. Goblins don't really have a Short Bow action, they take the Attack Action and fire with their short bows. Same reasoning would apply for a wolf.



Ask your DM, but the general accepted thing here is that you can use the NPC block for the attack action exactly as listed, or you can use your monk unarmed strike allow you to get two attacks.




Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows- I will put these together. I believe that, by a strict reading, a Monk/Druid wildshaped as a Giant Spider could not use a bonus action to make more bite attacks, either just one with Martial Arts or two with Flurry of Blows. But maybe a DM might allow it anyhow. The relevant rules point is whether a Beast's natural attacks count as Unarmed Strikes, and I don't think that, RAW, they do. Whether DM does allow it or not, I believe PC could still just use the regular Martial Arts die to, say, body slam or headbutt his targets instead with the
Bonus Action.


Ask your DM. The bite attack on a giant spider may be a natural attack, it may be considered a melee weapon, it may be allowed or not. Ask your DM and they will tell you what you think. My table said no it wasn't eligible for monk extra attacks.



Hands of Harm- I may be taking it too literally here, but since the ability says hands of harm, I'd say even if a DM allowed the extra Bite attack(s), he'd not allow it to work with Hands of Harm. Maybe it'd be different if the Beast was one that used a claw attack instead.

What do you guys think?

You are definitely being too literal here. The ability says "When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike" which the PHB defines as possibly a kick or headbutt or kneeing. There is nothing there outside of the title that requires it to be be a punch or hand strike or requires the existence of hands on the PC. If you DM says that the Giant Spider bite is considered an unarmed strike then you can use Hands of Harm with it.



I personally think that the rules interactions on Wildshaped PCs are the worst defined and described rules in 5e, they are vague and there are so many questions. So, all in all, the best advice anyone here can give is Ask your DM.

[elyktsorb]

Extra Attack- can work with Wildshape. The Actions in a beast stat block that are weapon attacks are all attacks that can be used with the Attack Action.

Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows- I will put these together. I believe that, by a strict reading, a Monk/Druid wildshaped as a Giant Spider could not use a bonus action to make more bite attacks, either just one with Martial Arts or two with Flurry of Blows. But maybe a DM might allow it anyhow. The relevant rules point is whether a Beast's natural attacks count as Unarmed Strikes, and I don't think that, RAW, they do. Whether DM does allow it or not, I believe PC could still just use the regular Martial Arts die to, say, body slam or headbutt his targets instead with the Bonus Action.

Hands of Harm- I may be taking it too literally here, but since the ability says hands of harm, I'd say even if a DM allowed the extra Bite attack(s), he'd not allow it to work with Hands of Harm. Maybe it'd be different if the Beast was one that used a claw attack instead.

What do you guys think?


Typically regular actions such as 'Bite' are fine with Extra Attack. Only Multiattack actions are ever in conflict.. Not that it should really matter, Extra Attack is wasted on forms with Multiattack for the most part.

I will split Martial Arts and Flurry since they don't actually rely on each other.

Martial Arts is a no go as attacks made in beast form aren't technically unarmed strikes (which is why most every race that has a means of dealing natural damage with hooves, claws, or etc. has the statement "which you can use to make unarmed strikes." somewhere in there.) They are instead natural weapons, which are not unarmed strikes.

Nor are they Monk weapons, so by both measures they don't allow you to make a bonus action attack after using them. I personally can't see many DM's not letting you do it tho.

Flurry however, only requires that you take the attack action, meaning it would still work with beast attacks, though again, being able to use said beast attacks as 'unarmed attacks' isn't raw, and you'd have to make an unarmed strike using your monk die.

You are definitely reading too much into hands of harm being 'hands' That being said, you do have to make an unarmed strike to actually use hands of harm, which can't be your beast attacks unless your dm is cool with that.

And for a final fun fact that you may not have realized, the level 6 ability 'Ki Empowered Strikes' does not work on your attacks in beast form, unless you specifically make unarmed strikes in beast form, meaning your beast attacks won't overcome that Non-Magical BPS resistance.

Tho conversely, if you had the level 6 Moon Druid ability 'Primal Strikes' they would both be fine, as that simply stipulates your attacks in beast form count as magical where as the monk ability only grants this to unarmed strikes.

[NaughtyTiger]

Goblins don't really have a Short Bow action, they take the Attack Action and fire with their short bows.

Literally, yes, Goblins have a Short Bow action. They do not take the Attack Action.

Monsters are not PCs.

[Keltest]

Literally, yes, Goblins have a Short Bow action. They do not take the Attack Action.

Monsters are not PCs.

On the one hand yes, but on the other hand if you take away a goblin's short bow and give them a crossbow instead, they dont suddenly become incapable of making ranged attacks, they just use the crossbow. This is specifically allowed by the DMG, so its not even homebrew or anything like that, its just a goblin with a crossbow.

Typically monster stat blocks are presented for easy parsing of how to run the turn rather than a deep explanation of how they derived the stat block, but for creatures with held weapons, they do typically follow similar rules to PCs. The only difference is a humanoid that dual wields doesnt typically need a bonus action to attack with their off hand weapon, instead having it incorporated into the multiattack, presumably for brevity.

[Psyren]

So, I'm playing a Mercy Monk but not entirely satisfied with him, thinking of multiclassing to Druid, either after level 6 or 8, and was thinking about the interactions between Wildshape, Extra Attack, Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, and Hands of Harm

Here are my questions, in order of how likely I believe they can work with Wild Shape.

Extra Attack- can work with Wildshape. The Actions in a beast stat block that are weapon attacks are all attacks that can be used with the Attack Action. This is specially clear when you look at humanoid stat blocks. Goblins don't really have a Short Bow action, they take the Attack Action and fire with their short bows. Same reasoning would apply for a wolf.
Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows- I will put these together. I believe that, by a strict reading, a Monk/Druid wildshaped as a Giant Spider could not use a bonus action to make more bite attacks, either just one with Martial Arts or two with Flurry of Blows. But maybe a DM might allow it anyhow. The relevant rules point is whether a Beast's natural attacks count as Unarmed Strikes, and I don't think that, RAW, they do. Whether DM does allow it or not, I believe PC could still just use the regular Martial Arts die to, say, body slam or headbutt his targets instead with the Bonus Action.
Hands of Harm- I may be taking it too literally here, but since the ability says hands of harm, I'd say even if a DM allowed the extra Bite attack(s), he'd not allow it to work with Hands of Harm. Maybe it'd be different if the Beast was one that used a claw attack instead.

What do you guys think?

Three things here:

1) Extra Attack + Wild Shape: this works, but only if the creature (you) is using just one attack. Extra Attack requires the Attack action on your turn, and Multiattack is not the same as Attack. So for example, a Deinonychus druid/barbarian could get two claw or two bite attacks by using Extra Attack, or it could get three attacks (bite + 2 claws) by using its multiattack.

2) Wild Shape + Flurry/Martial Arts: This does not work, or at least not in the way you think. Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes or monk weapons, so you can't trigger martial arts or flurry with them. You CAN make an unarmed strike in animal form (because anyone can unarmed strike) and trigger MA/Flurry that way, but you'll be stuck with the monk unarmed damage type and dice, instead of whatever your animal statblock says your natural weapons are.

3) Hands of Harm + Wild Shape: As above, you can unarmed strike no matter what form you're in, so you can use these together - but you can't trigger HoH from a natural weapon like a bite or horns.

[diplomancer]

Literally, yes, Goblins have a Short Bow action. They do not take the Attack Action.

Monsters are not PCs.

Can goblins dash? Can they ready an action? If they can do either, even though it's not in their stat block, why can't they take the Attack Action? And what happens when they do? The only possible answer to that last question is "they make a weapon attack appropriate to the weapon they're wielding, or an unarmed strike if they're not wielding anything". It would be a horrible waste of paper and ink to have every monster in the game in their Actions block: Attack (short bow), Attack (short sword), etc.


Three things here:

1) Extra Attack + Wild Shape: this works, but only if the creature (you) is using just one attack. Extra Attack requires the Attack action on your turn, and Multiattack is not the same as Attack. So for example, a Deinonychus druid/barbarian could get two claw or two bite attacks by using Extra Attack, or it could get three attacks (bite + 2 claws) by using its multiattack.

2) Wild Shape + Flurry/Martial Arts: This does not work, or at least not in the way you think. Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes or monk weapons, so you can't trigger martial arts or flurry with them. You CAN make an unarmed strike in animal form (because anyone can unarmed strike) and trigger MA/Flurry that way, but you'll be stuck with the monk unarmed damage type and dice, instead of whatever your animal statblock says your natural weapons are.

3) Hands of Harm + Wild Shape: As above, you can unarmed strike no matter what form you're in, so you can use these together - but you can't trigger HoH from a natural weapon like a bite or horns.

Hmm. So check if this is right: Giant Spider Mercy Monk. He uses Web as his opening Attack, restraining the enemy (use Focused Aim if necessary). Run in, and make an unarmed strike with his Extra Attack (at advantage). Use Hands of Harm to poison the monster. Monster now has disadvantage on its check to get out of the web. Continue with Unarmed Strikes and bites subsequent rounds. If Web recharges, he can choose to do the same to a different monster.

[Keravath]

So, I'm playing a Mercy Monk but not entirely satisfied with him, thinking of multiclassing to Druid, either after level 6 or 8, and was thinking about the interactions between Wildshape, Extra Attack, Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, and Hands of Harm

Here are my questions, in order of how likely I believe they can work with Wild Shape.

Extra Attack- can work with Wildshape. The Actions in a beast stat block that are weapon attacks are all attacks that can be used with the Attack Action. This is specially clear when you look at humanoid stat blocks. Goblins don't really have a Short Bow action, they take the Attack Action and fire with their short bows. Same reasoning would apply for a wolf.
Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows- I will put these together. I believe that, by a strict reading, a Monk/Druid wildshaped as a Giant Spider could not use a bonus action to make more bite attacks, either just one with Martial Arts or two with Flurry of Blows. But maybe a DM might allow it anyhow. The relevant rules point is whether a Beast's natural attacks count as Unarmed Strikes, and I don't think that, RAW, they do. Whether DM does allow it or not, I believe PC could still just use the regular Martial Arts die to, say, body slam or headbutt his targets instead with the Bonus Action.
Hands of Harm- I may be taking it too literally here, but since the ability says hands of harm, I'd say even if a DM allowed the extra Bite attack(s), he'd not allow it to work with Hands of Harm. Maybe it'd be different if the Beast was one that used a claw attack instead.

What do you guys think?

Extra Attack: Works with an Attack action (eg bite/claw - anything labeled as a melee or ranged weapon attack [not a spell]) but not with Multiattack. The Multiattack action is NOT the same as the Attack action - it is distinct.

The requirement for triggering martial arts is making an unarmed strike or attack with a monk weapon. Monk weapons are "shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property". It is a DM decision as to whether Wild shape natural weapons could be considered monk weapons. If Wildshape weapons are monk weapons then you are fine. If they aren't then you can make one attack using the Wildshape attack and an unarmed strike using extra attack which will then allow both the martial arts bonus action attack and flurry of blows to be used.

Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows: The wildshaped druid can not make another attack with a weapon (bite, claw, whatever). However, they CAN make a monk unarmed strike as a bonus action and can use flurry of blows to get two of them if either the wildshape weapons were considered monk weapons or one of the attacks made was already an unarmed strike.

What exactly is an unarmed strike?

"Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons)."

Pretty much all wild shapes are capable of making a forceful blow with some part of their body - as such they are all capable of making unarmed strikes.

Hands of Harm: The name is just a label. The actual text describes what it does and all that is required is to hit a creature with an unarmed strike - it doesn't have to be your hands since an unarmed strike is specifically defined as any forceful blow.

"Hand of Harm

3rd-level Way of Mercy feature

You use your ki to inflict wounds. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 1 ki point to deal extra necrotic damage equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die + your Wisdom modifier. You can use this feature only once per turn."

----

The bottom line is that most monk features work with wildshapes.

However, the main problem is that the available wildshapes will feel very weak at the level you get them, even as a moon druid. A CR1 bear has +5 to hit and +3 to damage for the bite/claw. Your unarmed strike would be similar. In addition, the regular wildshape attacks would not be magical, only the unarmed strikes would be.

monk 1/moon druid X has most of these features without sacrificing the wildshape progression. I'm not sure how that would feel for a monk 6 or 8/moon druid X

[Psyren]

Hmm. So check if this is right: Giant Spider Mercy Monk. He uses Web as his opening Attack, restraining the enemy (use Focused Aim if necessary). Run in, and make an unarmed strike with his Extra Attack (at advantage). Use Hands of Harm to poison the monster. Monster now has disadvantage on its check to get out of the web. Continue with Unarmed Strikes and bites subsequent rounds. If Web recharges, he can choose to do the same to a different monster.

Yes, this should work. You would take the Attack action at range, and replace your first attack with Web, then move in and unarmed strike with the second. Not only can you Hands of Harm that strike, you can also apply it to your additional unarmed strikes from Martial Arts or Flurry. Assuming the Web landed, you'll get advantage on all of these unarmed strikes. Note however you'll be using your monk's unarmed damage rather than the spider's bite damage.

Note too that using Focused Aim, Hands of Harm and Flurry all on the same turn will burn your ki fairly quickly at lower levels, so be careful of that.

[Person_Man]

As others have opined, Wildshape + Monk Stuff generally does not work because of the precise wording of the abilities, just like Wild Shape + Sneak Attack doesn’t work because natural attacks are not Finesse weapons even if they use Dex to attack.

So talk to your DM about a hand wave. Or you could consider one of the Druid subclasses that let you use your Wildshape uses for other buffs. Or just stick it out. Its not immediately obvious in the stat block, but once their Short Rest refilled Kai pool gets sufficiently big, you can spam abilities a lot more often, dramatically increasing the Monks usefulness.

[stoutstien]

It is a little sad how hard a spore druid/mercy monk is to pull off. I'm not huge on multiclassing but man does it feel like the thematic combos are so much worse than stuff like a hexvoker.

[Psyren]

It is a little sad how hard a spore druid/mercy monk is to pull off. I'm not huge on multiclassing but man does it feel like the thematic combos are so much worse than stuff like a hexvoker.

Just take two levels of spore druid and have another source of temp HP to prevent you from getting spore druid's. (And of course, discuss the combo with your DM)

[stoutstien]

Just take two levels of spore druid and have another source of temp HP to prevent you from getting spore druid's. (And of course, discuss the combo with your DM)

Yea the old shifters works well for this but it still janky and feels like you need to use weird rule interactions to do something that shouldn't need it.

[elyktsorb]

It is a little sad how hard a spore druid/mercy monk is to pull off. I'm not huge on multiclassing but man does it feel like the thematic combos are so much worse than stuff like a hexvoker.

I played a Spore Druid/Ascendant Dragon Monk and it worked out very well. I did have Mobile to facilitate being able to not be hit as much, but in theory any monk subclass could work well with that.

[Psyren]

Yea the old shifters works well for this but it still janky and feels like you need to use weird rule interactions to do something that shouldn't need it.

I'll point out that they put the reminder about how temp HP refusal works right next to the original spore druid from GGtR. So this interaction might even be intended.

[JNAProductions]

For what it's worth, at my tables I'd be fine treating a natural attack (claws, bites, slams, whatever) as Monk Weapons. That's not RAW, but it feels good to me.

If you intend to multiclass Druid and Monk, ask your DM how they'd rule-it's a good combo, but not so good that it needs to be nerfed or anything.
If you ARE the DM, I'd recommend erring on the side of your players' characters being powerful. People like to kick butt!