Revolver > Shotgun?

[Drakevarg]

Had a discussion this morning on the merits of giving ranged weapons (specifically firearms) penalties at close range, and I made a comment about how at the end of the day the gun is still a gun and that's what the damage roll is for. Then I got curious and pulled out my copy of Ultimate Combat to remind myself what that damage roll actually was, and noticed something surprising I had never taken conscious note of before.

Why is a revolver as good or better than a shotgun on every possible metric besides lacking the scatter option? Cheaper, same damage, better crit, same range, more ammo, lighter weight... the only exception to this is the equally nonsensical feature that a double-barreled shotgun (and only the double-barrel model) firing slugs doubles its damage twice from 1d8 all the way up to 4d8. Who signed off on this? It doesn't just feel unbalanced, it feels unfinished.

[Rynjin]

The Scatter function is really good utility actually. Having a purely martial AoE option lets them deal with swarms out of the box. Also a 30 ft. cone is just HUGE for something you can add real damage modifiers too. Great crowd control in general. Plus you can on-demand ignore fog and other concealments with your full attack. Shotguns are pretty much the best overall two-handed firearm IMO, though that's mostly because the others suck.

In short, yes, revolvers are mostly better than shotguns except for the scatter quality. But the scatter quality is very good, and worth jumping through the hoops to get a faster reload with shotguns.

Shotguns also have more options for exotic ammo than the revolver. Dragon's Breath rounds gives you elemental damage on demand, and Entangling Shot is pretty solid.

The double barrel being able to do 4d8 to a single target sounds cool, but it's not that amazing because it can only be used as a Standard. I.e. you can't full attack with it.

[Drakevarg]

Scatter might be good, but it doesn't really explain/justify how a bullet from a revolver can deal as much damage as a shotgun slug (more, in the case of a crit). Shotguns might have other uses, but at the end of the day it's still a two-handed firearm firing much bigger projectiles. It's a bit like saying a heavy crossbow and a hand crossbow should deal the same damage because the heavy one can use trick bolts.

[Drelua]

Scatter might be good, but it doesn't really explain/justify how a bullet from a revolver can deal as much damage as a shotgun slug (more, in the case of a crit). Shotguns might have other uses, but at the end of the day it's still a two-handed firearm firing much bigger projectiles. It's a bit like saying a heavy crossbow and a hand crossbow should deal the same damage because the heavy one can use trick bolts.

I feel like you're still downplaying scatter, it's not really the same as comparing heavy and hand crossbows. You can hit an entire 30' cone. Stand in the corner of a decent sized living room, and you can hit the entire room. Plus swarms. Maybe it's not the best primary weapon, there's often going to be times when you can only hit one enemy, or can't hit multiple enemies without hitting a friend, but when I played a gunslinger I always made sure to bring a scatter weapon as a backup.

Now, shotguns absolutely should not work like this. It's an impossibly effective weapon. They should do more damage, maybe have some penalty associated with the kick, maybe give a bonus against small targets since you're hitting a wider area so shooting a mouse would be much easier than with a single bullet. I don't know, I've never touched a gun in my life so I'm just guessing.

I did notice that in the first printing double barreled shotguns said they can fire both barrels "as one attack," and it must have later been changed to specify a standard action attack, so I wonder if that was always the intent.

[Maat Mons]

This is the first I've looked at Pathfinder's firearms rules. I have to say, I'm upset at the lack of lever-action rifles and pump-action shotguns.

I do think slugs should deal more damage than buckshot. Otherwise, why would you ever fire slugs?

[Drelua]

This is the first I've looked at Pathfinder's firearms rules. I have to say, I'm upset at the lack of lever-action rifles and pump-action shotguns.

I do think slugs should deal more damage than buckshot. Otherwise, why would you ever fire slugs?

Because some people have friends they don't want to shoot. But yeah, it would make sense for slugs to do more damage, if only because they're coming out of a gun that can do the same amount of damage over a massive area.

But PF's gun rules do not make sense. The lack of things like pump action shotguns does though, I think, just for the tech level. They kinda skip over modern guns. They just have old west style weapons, and then lasers.

[Rynjin]

But PF's gun rules do not make sense. The lack of things like pump action shotguns does though, I think, just for the tech level. They kinda skip over modern guns. They just have old west style weapons, and then lasers.

Incorrect, actually. Reign of Winter introduces several "Modern" Firearms. Modern for World War I in any case. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms/)

These include fully automatic rifles, flamethrowers, bolt actions (specifically the Mosin Nagant), and grenade launchers...but no pump shotty.

[spectralphoenix]

It is kind of weird that the rifle doesn't get a d12 die like the musket, which would probably put the shotgun at a d10 - one size smaller in exchange for the special ability. Two-handed firearms in general are limited by the fact you can't get extra damage from strength/PA like you can with melee weapons. The extra range counts for something too though.

Ultimately, firearms are intended to be balanced in a world that is otherwise D&D more than they are realistic though.

[Drelua]

Incorrect, actually. Reign of Winter introduces several "Modern" Firearms. Modern for World War I in any case. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms/)

These include fully automatic rifles, flamethrowers, bolt actions (specifically the Mosin Nagant), and grenade launchers...but no pump shotty.

Oh right, I completely forgot about the WWI era stuff. A quick google search tells me pump action shotguns were invented in 1893, so they'd been around for 20 years by then. I have no idea how common they were, but I doubt they would have been commonly used by the military if that's relevant. I've heard some of the scenarios had the players dropped in to the middle of the war, so they may have been focused on including weapons that would be found there.

[Rynjin]

Oh right, I completely forgot about the WWI era stuff. A quick google search tells me pump action shotguns were invented in 1893, so they'd been around for 20 years by then. I have no idea how common they were, but I doubt they would have been commonly used by the military if that's relevant. I've heard some of the scenarios had the players dropped in to the middle of the war, so they may have been focused on including weapons that would be found there.

Shotguns were actually pretty relevant to WWI. There's a common meme (based in fact) that the Germans wanted them banned by treaty.

[u-b]

Dragon's Breath rounds gives you elemental damage on demand...
Does it misfire, like, 30% of the time? Imagining a full attack with these thingies... :smalleek: