Commanding the Dead Baby: Rebuking the Atropal

[Khatoblepas]

Out of all the possible monsters in D&D 3.5, the one epic monster that seems tantalizingly in reach for someone who wants to have the ultimate minion is the Atropal. It's a 66HD undead which does not have Turn Immunity. But alas, at level 20, we can't reach the heights of rebuking to command the undead godling ourselves. Or can we? Assuming a party of four people, we can probably do it. The main star is the cleric, who will be rebuking the atropal once everything is in order.


Human Cleric of Tharizdun 14/Doomdreamer 1/Paragnostic Apostle 5
1) Improved Turning
B) Spell Focus (Necromancy)
3)
6)
9)
12)
15)
18)

Cleric Level: 19
Talisman of Undead Mastery: +4 (1/day)
Phylactery of Undead Turning: +4
Improved Turning: +1
Scepter of the Netherworld: +3
Rod of the Dead: +4
Rod of Authority: +4
Sacred Gauntlet: +2
Knowledge is Power: See Through the Veil +10
Kiss of Undeath x2

This gives a maximum effective cleric level of 102, which isn't good enough, we're going to have to squeeze out more power for this.


Turn Resistance Mitigation:
Rod of Defiance: -4
Lyre of the Restful Soul: -4

In order to get over its insane +20 turn resistance, we need to get clever. The following combination of spells will strip it of its supernatural abilities:
- Spark of Life (to give it a weakness to Fortitude saves)
- Spurn the Supernatural (to remove its Su abilities. We'll need to remove 4 of them, which means we'll need to beat the truenaming check by 20. Easy enough with enough boosters).
An arcane caster with enough Truespeak bonuses will be able to pull this off.

But it's will save is incredibly high. We'll need a third party member, one dedicated to reducing saves. An Unseelie Fey has the ability to reduce saves by their Charisma bonus, so if we pump that high enough, and add Paladin of Tyranny's Aura of Despair, Improved Bind Vestige (Focalar) and Hexblade's shadow companion, we get a total penalty of (Cha+6), which might be enough to weigh the odds in our favour, especially if we have enough charisma. The ten negative levels will be a problem, but we could make them a Construct (a Maug or something) or have a meatshield polymorph into a Ragamoffyn and make the debuffer a Captured One. The base creature retains its charisma so it's fine.


The main problems I see are:
- I only have an Effective Cleric Level of 102, when I need it to be 124 ((66*2)-8). How can I get an extra 22 effective cleric levels?
- While it is harmless to a Construct (its only attacks are necromantic in nature), it has a fly speed of 240ft (perfect). How do I stop it from escaping so I can be within 5ft to debuff it?
- Summoning Nightcrawlers might pose a problem if it bolsters them, that means they're unturnable as well, but they're CR18 so a party of level 20 adventurers could deal with them.

But it'll be worth it to have a minion that is basically a dead god baby that makes your other undead minions untouchable at will.

Any ideas?

[FauxKnee]

Bloodlines are a bit cheesy, but you can abuse them to carve out several extra turning levels. Since most sources of turn undead stack, and the bloodline would be independently added to each class' effective level, each dip should net you three effective turning levels. The cheesiest acquisition would be to "buy" all three bloodline levels before reaching ECL 2, which would cost only 3000 XP (easily recovered via the "xp river" phenomenon.) See the Lists of Stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553-Lists-of-Stuff-(saved-from-Wizards-Community-Forums)) for sources of turning/rebuking that you could combine with bloodlines.

Additionally, you have a ton of feat slots open--Heighten Turning can dramatically increase your HD cap, while Empower Turning dramatically increases the "turning damage" roll. Combine Turning was from an online web enhancement (previously available at this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a), which is now dead; I couldn't find it on archive.org either) and can give you a crazy boost to your turn strength. (You can spend additional turn/rebuke attempts. Each extra use gives you a +4, which is downright wild with all the easy ways to increase your turning pool.)

[Anthrowhale]

Song of the Dead + Dominate Monster?

Supernatural Spell[Song of the Dead + Monstrous Thrall]?

Spark of Life + Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Tumor?

[InvisibleBison]

Atropals are extraplanar, so they're vulnerable to gate. You'd need CL 33 to get one, but that shouldn't be too hard to obtain. I don't think a creature can voluntarily accept being rebuked, but you can order it to lower its spell resistance and/or voluntarily fail any saving throws against spells you cast (note that gate doesn't have any restrictions against giving a creature called for a short-term task suicidal orders).

[Paragon]

Dead throne artifact from Sandstorm

[Crake]

Knowledge is Power: See Through the Veil +10

Just to point out, paragnostic apostle says you can't pick the same knowledge is power ability twice in a row, so the most you can get here is +6, not +10, by picking it at level 1, 3, and 5.


Although you can choose some of these abilities multiple times (as indicated in the descriptions), you may not select the same one twice in a row

Edit: Oh wait, it's even worse than that. Its only selectable multiple times if it specifically says so, and see through the veil does not, so this is in fact limited to +2.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You can't take See through the Veil several times. Paragnostic Apostle only gives you +2 to Turning level.
Edit: Damn, swordsage'd. Shouldn't have written that long a post.


Additionally, you have a ton of feat slots open--Heighten Turning can dramatically increase your HD cap, while Empower Turning dramatically increases the "turning damage" roll. Combine Turning was from an online web enhancement (previously available at this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a), which is now dead; I couldn't find it on archive.org either) and can give you a crazy boost to your turn strength. (You can spend additional turn/rebuke attempts. Each extra use gives you a +4, which is downright wild with all the easy ways to increase your turning pool.)

You can find it here: Ghotswalk Web Enhancement (https://www.tsrarchive.com/3e/Ghostwalk%20Web%20Enhancement.pdf)
Sadly, only increases Turning checks and damage, not equivalent turning level, which is what's important to control undead.



The easiest thing in my opinion would be to reduce its saves to very low amounts, then cast Control Undead on it. Then find another atropal and cast Control Undead on it too (or Gate in two atropals, if you have access to 9th level spells and CL>33). Then, cast Spark of Life on each one. Then Baleful Polymorph on the first to change it into a monkey, then Ability Rip on yourself and the Atropal to give it Kiss of Undeath, then give it a few items that increase its turning level. Atropal: 72+let's say Rod of the Dead and Talisman of Undead Mastery +8, x2 Kiss of Death 160. Rod of Defiance, Lyre of Restful Soul on the other Atropal. Its effective HD for turning is now 78. Have the first atropal command the second one. Now Dispel Baleful Polymorph and Ability Rip. Then do the same for the second atropal. You now have two atropals each under the command of the other one. Before your Command Undead runs out, order each atropal to order each other to obey your commands. You won!

Or you can be a necropolitan and use metamorphic transfer (UMD a wand of Polymorph) to change into an atropal scion. You immediately gain rebuking level equal to your HD, which, by the turning rules, stack with your own. By the rule of stacking bonuses, you apply Kiss of Undeath afterwards, which means you gain basically +40 to your ETL compared to what you're already listing here, for a total of (ignoring 4 of the 5 See Through the Veil) ETL 134 (just enough to command the atropal if you're bypassing its turning resistance with Spark of Life+Spurn the Supernatural/Ability Rip/Trait Removal. (Note that most of your items are actually held, which means you'll have to use things like Girallon's Blessing to gain the four necessary arms).

[Crake]

Spark of Life + Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Tumor?

Doesn't really fit the premise that OP laid out, however, spark of life does make a creature vulnerable to energy drain. Note that it can't be negative energy based, as that will instead just heal it, so enervation or the energy drain spell are not options, but vampires, or succubi energy drain attacks will give the atropal negative levels, which will reduce it's effective HD and make it easier to turn.

Keep in mind by the way, that in order to maintain command over a creature, you need to have a cleric level that equals it's HD (which includes the turn resistance in this case), so you need to get your effective cleric level up to at least 78 (after the -8 to reduce it's turn resistance) unless you find a way to permanently remove it's turn resistance, and/or reduce it's HD, otherwise you'll turn the creature, and then immediately lose control of it.

Note that this means you will also become reliant on any items you have, and stepping foot into an antimagic field or even having those items be temporarily dispelled will immediately lose you control of the atropal, so this seems like a REALLY bad idea.


The easiest thing in my opinion would be to reduce its saves to very low amounts, then cast Control Undead on it. Then find another atropal and cast Control Undead on it too (or Gate in two atropals, if you have access to 9th level spells and CL>33). Then, cast Spark of Life on each one. Then Baleful Polymorph on the first to change it into a monkey, then Ability Rip on yourself and the Atropal to give it Kiss of Undeath, then give it a few items that increase its turning level. Atropal: 72+let's say Rod of the Dead and Talisman of Undead Mastery +8, x2 Kiss of Death 160. Rod of Defiance, Lyre of Restful Soul on the other Atropal. Its effective HD for turning is now 78. Have the first atropal command the second one. Now Dispel Baleful Polymorph and Ability Rip. Then do the same for the second atropal. You now have two atropals each under the command of the other one. Before your Command Undead runs out, order each atropal to order each other to obey your commands. You won!

This kinda suffers from the above. The atropals can each command up to 72HD, which is 14 shy of the 86 they'd need to permanently command one another. Sure you could use items to buff this, but if those items are dispelled, or temporarily negated in some way, the chain is broken, and as soon as one is freed, it now has control over the other to tell it to no longer follow your commands, and now you've got 2 to deal with.

[thorr-kan]

Some holy symbol shenanigans I've collected over the years:

NOTE: While the list below details holy symbols, unholy symbols follow exactly the same rules, simply switching: turn undead for rebuke undead, sacred bonus for profane bonus, and holy symbol for unholy symbol.

True Holy Symbol - Planar Handbook
Appearing in all other ways to be merely a holy symbol, this item in fact comes from the home plane of the deity the symbol represents - and carries with it a modicum of the deity's power. Attempts to turn undead using the true holy symbol provide a +2 sacred bonus on the character's turning check (1d20 + the character's Cha modifier). True holy symbol: 500gp, 1 lb.

Greater Holy Symbol - Defenders of the Faith
Manufactured from precious metals and gems, this item is imbued with divine power by a servant of the deity it is associated with. A greater holy symbol grants the bearer the Empower Turning feat, usable at will.
Caster Level: 4th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, ability to turn or rebuke undead as 4th-level cleric, participation of a celestial, fiend, or other outsider servant of a deity; Market Price: 5,040 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

Reliquary Holy Symbol - Magic Item Compendium
As the repository of a tiny fragment of a long-dead high priest of a particular deity, a reliquary holy symbol functions just like any other holy symbol. In addition, for each of the following prerequisites that you meet, the holy symbol grants you one additional daily use of your turn or rebuke undead ability.
• At least 5 ranks in Knowledge (religion)
• Improved Turning feat
• At least one divine feat
Each reliquary holy symbol is crafted for a specific deity and is only useful to characters dedicated to that deity (or in the case of a character who isn’t devoted to a specific deity, whose alignment matches that of the deity). For example, a reliquary holy symbol of Heironeous can be used by any cleric of Heironeous, or by any lawful good character. Price (Item Level): 1,000 gp (4th), Body Slot: Throat, Activation: —, Weight: —


Flametouched Holy Symbol - Eberron Campaign Setting
Mined only in Thrane, flametouched iron is rare and considered sacred by the Church of the Silver Flame. When mined, this iron variety has a speckled dark red color, resembling rust, but when it is refined, it takes on a shimmering, silvery hue. Adherents of the Church of the Silver Flame believe that flametouched iron carries the particular blessing of their deity, and they use it to make holy symbols.
Flametouched iron has the same weight and other physical characteristics of iron (hardness 10, 30 hit points per inch of thickness). It possesses magical quantities, however, that manifest in different ways depending on the item it is crafted into. A flametouched iron holy symbol allows a character who can turn undead or censure fiends to do so as if his class level were one higher than it actually is. Flametouched iron holy symbol: 750gp, 1 lb.

[ShurikVch]

Hierophant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) - Mastery of Energy: +4 on check and damage

Empower Supernatural Ability (Tome of Magic) - Rebuke Undead is supernatural ability; works only 1/day per feat (can be taken multiple times) - but if one success is all you need...

Mace of Undead Prowess (Ghostwalk) +2 turning level

Mace of the Dark Children (Magic Item Compendium): +3 profane bonus on rebuke undead attempts, and you count as 2 levels higher for HD control limit
Talisman of Undead Mastery (Magic Item Compendium): for a single rebuke check, effective turning level increased by 2-4 (depending on the charges spent)

Unholy Candle (Dragon #324 "Exorcising Equipment – Items Every Undead Hunter Needs"): +2 bonus on their turning check results

Lich's Spout (Dungeon #116 "Four Fiendish Fountains"): drinking from it cause 2d8+5 points of damage (unless you're Unded - then it heals) and gives +4 on rebuking check for 6 hour

[Beni-Kujaku]

This kinda suffers from the above. The atropals can each command up to 72HD, which is 14 shy of the 86 they'd need to permanently command one another. Sure you could use items to buff this, but if those items are dispelled, or temporarily negated in some way, the chain is broken, and as soon as one is freed, it now has control over the other to tell it to no longer follow your commands, and now you've got 2 to deal with.

Atropals have Undead Mastery as an epic feat‚ allowing them to command 660 HD of Undead.

[Crake]

Atropals have Undead Mastery as an epic feat‚ allowing them to command 660 HD of Undead.

oh, fair enough, problem solved then I guess!

Edit: At least, until someone else casts control undead on them and orders them to each relinquish command of each other I guess. Since you aren't directly controlling them, it does create a weak link.

[Anthrowhale]

Doesn't really fit the premise that OP laid out

It accomplishes the same end by a different means though, right?

[Quertus]

Keep in mind by the way, that in order to maintain command over a creature, you need to have a cleric level that equals it's HD (which includes the turn resistance in this case),

Citation? I know I’m senile, but I thought CLx2>=HD (ie, your Command Pool) was the limiting factor you needed to maintain (before shenanigans, like General of Undeath or Undead Mastery).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Citation? I know I’m senile, but I thought CLx2>=HD (ie, your Command Pool) was the limiting factor you needed to maintain (before shenanigans, like General of Undeath or Undead Mastery).

Rules Compendium‚ p147 :
At
any one time, the controller can command any number
of creatures whose combined Hit Dice don’t exceed his
level. The controller can voluntarily relinquish power
over any commanded creatures to command new ones.

[Quertus]

Rules Compendium‚ p147 :
At
any one time, the controller can command any number
of creatures whose combined Hit Dice don’t exceed his
level. The controller can voluntarily relinquish power
over any commanded creatures to command new ones.

Ah, thanks. I was thinking of the size of the animated control pool, wasn’t I?

[Crake]

Ah, thanks. I was thinking of the size of the animated control pool, wasn’t I?

You were, and for reference, the ORIGINAL citation is in the players handbook, page 159 under "Evil Clerics and Undead", the paragraph on commanded undead:


Commanded: A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is the idea to command the atropal to command itself to follow your orders?