PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Fixing bad capstones



CTurbo
2022-09-17, 02:02 AM
We all know that all capstones aren't created equal. I've been thinking about how I would personally fix some of the worst ones.


Bard

Superior Inspiration
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use.

What I dislike about it...
*IF* you have none left, you gain 1. That's really really bad for a capstone. Here is what I would do.

Improved Superior Inspiration
At 20th level, your Charisma score increases by 2 and the maximum for that score becomes 22.

When you roll initiative, you can regain 2 expended Inspiration Dice up to but not exceeding your Charisma modifier.

What I like about it...
I like the idea of Bards being the MOST charismatic and 22 Cha achieves that. This gives them a 6th Inspiration die to use, and guarantees they always have at least 2 dice at the beginning of each combat. This is much much better without going too overboard when compared to what Barbs and Druids get.




Monk

Perfect Self
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.

What I dislike about it...
Honestly it's not as bad as people think, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Guaranteeing a use of Empty Body each combat is pretty decent, but I HATE how you have to be completely out of ki for it to work. Here is what I would do.

Revised Perfect Self
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative, you regain an amount of ki equal to your Wisdom modifier up to but not exceeding your maximum.

Furthermore, when you use Flurry of Blows, you can now make three unarmed strikes instead of two as a Bonus Action.

What I like about it...
The main thing here is that you don't have to be out of ki to use it so it's always useful. That extra unarmed strike is just icing on the cake that addresses the complaint that Monks don't keep up with the damage output.




Ranger

Foe Slayer
At 20th level, you become an unparalleled hunter of your enemies. Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll or the damage roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.

What I dislike about it...
Well, it's terrible. Oathbreakers, Bladelocks, and Bladesingers all get to add their spellcasting mod to the damage of ALL attacks at levels 7, 12, and 14 respectively. For the Ranger to be able to do it just once as a Capstone feature is just laughable. Here is what I would do.

Revised Foe Slayer
At 20th level, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack or damage roll of ANY attack you make. You can choose HOW to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.

Furthermore, you can cast Hunter's Mark from a 1st level slot without expending a spell slot, AND no longer requires concentration to maintain it.

What I like about it...
Now you can add your Wis mod to every attack. If you roll high, you add it to the damage. If you roll low, you add it to the attack. It's pretty strong. Of course sometimes it will still miss still. This won't always be a +5. Some Rangers never bother going higher than 16 Wis, but +3 to hit is still pretty good. I also wanted to give a huge boost to the Ranger staple Hunter's Mark, and yeah I probably overdid it, but I wanted the Ranger capstone to jump into the top %.




Sorcerer

Sorcerous Restoration
At 20th level, you regain 4 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest.

What I dislike about it...
To say it's timid for a level 20 capstone would be an understatement. It needs.... more? Here's what I would do.

Revised Sorcerous Restoration
At 20th level, you regain 4 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest.

Choose two metamagic options with a 1 sorcery point cost, OR one metamagic option with a 2 or 3 sorcery point cost. You can use the metamagic(s) chosen once per turn without expending a sorcery point.

Additionally, whenever you take a long rest, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list.

What I like about it...
I like the idea of having one or two at-will metamagics to use, and I also think that Sorcerers should be able to swap out spells after hitting level 20. They need some flexibility. I know 3 features are a lot, and that i's pretty strong, but it IS a capstone after all.

diplomancer
2022-09-17, 03:15 AM
We all know that all capstones aren't created equal. I've been thinking about how I would personally fix some of the worst ones.


Bard

Superior Inspiration
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use.

What I dislike about it...
*IF* you have none left, you gain 1. That's really really bad for a capstone. Here is what I would do.

Improved Superior Inspiration
At 20th level, your Charisma score increases by 2 and the maximum for that score becomes 22.

When you roll initiative, you can regain 2 expended Inspiration Dice up to but not exceeding your Charisma modifier.

What I like about it...
I like the idea of Bards being the MOST charismatic and 22 Cha achieves that. This gives them a 6th Inspiration die to use, and guarantees they always have at least 2 dice at the beginning of each combat. This is much much better without going too overboard when compared to what Barbs and Druids get.




Monk

Perfect Self
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.

What I dislike about it...
Honestly it's not as bad as people think, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Guaranteeing a use of Empty Body each combat is pretty decent, but I HATE how you have to be completely out of ki for it to work. Here is what I would do.

Revised Perfect Self
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative, you regain an amount of ki equal to your Wisdom modifier up to but not exceeding your maximum.

Furthermore, when you use Flurry of Blows, you can now make three unarmed strikes instead of two as a Bonus Action.

What I like about it...
The main thing here is that you don't have to be out of ki to use it so it's always useful. That extra unarmed strike is just icing on the cake that addresses the complaint that Monks don't keep up with the damage output.




Ranger

Foe Slayer
At 20th level, you become an unparalleled hunter of your enemies. Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll or the damage roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.

What I dislike about it...
Well, it's terrible. Oathbreakers, Bladelocks, and Bladesingers all get to add their spellcasting mod to the damage of ALL attacks at levels 7, 12, and 14 respectively. For the Ranger to be able to do it just once as a Capstone feature is just laughable. Here is what I would do.

Revised Foe Slayer
At 20th level, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack or damage roll of ANY attack you make. You can choose HOW to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.

Furthermore, you can cast Hunter's Mark from a 1st level slot without expending a spell slot, AND no longer requires concentration to maintain it.

What I like about it...
Now you can add your Wis mod to every attack. If you roll high, you add it to the damage. If you roll low, you add it to the attack. It's pretty strong. Of course sometimes it will still miss still. This won't always be a +5. Some Rangers never bother going higher than 16 Wis, but +3 to hit is still pretty good. I also wanted to give a huge boost to the Ranger staple Hunter's Mark, and yeah I probably overdid it, but I wanted the Ranger capstone to jump into the top %.




Sorcerer

Sorcerous Restoration
At 20th level, you regain 4 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest.

What I dislike about it...
To say it's timid for a level 20 capstone would be an understatement. It needs.... more? Here's what I would do.

Revised Sorcerous Restoration
At 20th level, you regain 4 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest.

Choose two metamagic options with a 1 sorcery point cost, OR one metamagic option with a 2 or 3 sorcery point cost. You can use the metamagic(s) chosen once per turn without expending a sorcery point.

Additionally, whenever you take a long rest, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list.

What I like about it...
I like the idea of having one or two at-will metamagics to use, and I also think that Sorcerers should be able to swap out spells after hitting level 20. They need some flexibility. I know 3 features are a lot, and that i's pretty strong, but it IS a capstone after all.

Sorcerer's is definitely not weak, unless you think coffeelocks are weak. I think Bard's should have subclass capstones. They're the only class with only 3 subclass levels, they need one more.

Talionis
2022-09-17, 10:20 PM
In General yes please. Make good late game powers.

Talamare
2022-09-17, 10:58 PM
Bard - Bardic Inspiration now uses a d20
Fighter - 5 Attacks
Monk - Your Str and Con is increased to equal your Dex, Your Int and Cha is increased to equal your Wis.
Ranger - Add your Wis to the Attack... AND... Damage of all attacks.
Sorcerer - Once per round, you may reduce the cost of a Metamagic by 1

Dienekes
2022-09-18, 01:33 AM
Honestly, for most of the “on initiative” ones I’ve just given temporary uses of the resource that are lost at the end of combat.

So Monk will get their 4 bonus Ki even if they’re at full, and can blast through them without worrying about resource management.

Kylar0990
2022-09-18, 02:52 AM
Sorcerer's is definitely not weak, unless you think coffeelocks are weak. I think Bard's should have subclass capstones. They're the only class with only 3 subclass levels, they need one more.

Coffeelocks aren't weak, but they have access to what is essentially the Sorcerer's capstone by level 7. This makes the Sorcerer's capstone far too weak to be a level 20 ability.

Amechra
2022-09-18, 03:50 AM
Monk - Your Str and Con is increased to equal your Dex, Your Int and Cha is increased to equal your Wis.

Just give them one of their old playtest capstones — 20th level sets all of their ability scores to 20.

diplomancer
2022-09-18, 04:42 AM
Just give them one of their old playtest capstones — 20th level sets all of their ability scores to 20.

I mean, those are basically the same thing. Most Monks will have Dex and Wis at 20 by then, unless you're running a 20th level one-shot.

Amnestic
2022-09-18, 05:12 AM
Instead of setting monks to 20 across the board (either directly or effectively) I gave them +2 to all stats and max increased by +2. Boosts their dex and wis a tad, but also spreads the love to other stats as well.

stoutstien
2022-09-18, 05:41 AM
I'm not defending the rangers capstone because it's not great but it does apply to a damage or attack roll which is situationally a lot better than adding just damage to every roll. It also is usable after you see your roll in either case. It's a decent feature just a bad capstone.

Chaos Jackal
2022-09-18, 06:47 AM
I'm not defending the rangers capstone because it's not great but it does apply to a damage or attack roll which is situationally a lot better than adding just damage to every roll. It also is usable after you see your roll in either case. It's a decent feature just a bad capstone.

Decent is stretching it. It's not only usable once per turn, it can only be activated against favored enemies, which, depending on the campaign's foe variety, can turn it into a complete joke, even if it wasn't a capstone.

On top of that, the basic ranger chassis has little use for Wisdom and many of the subclasses also don't have anything to use it for. Rangers don't get to be SAD for the most part the way all artificers do, they don't have a feature capable of making their spellcasting modifier massively important on its own the way paladins have Aura of Protection, they don't prepare spells the way the other two do, where their Int/Cha is a big part of their everyday selection number and not only do they know few spells, most of their best ones (absorb elements, goodberry, hunter's mark, longstrider, lesser/greater restoration, pass without trace, silence, spike growth, conjure animals/woodland beings, plant growth, revivify) don't rely on their modifier either. You can claim your ranger only has the best spells available to him, you'd probably be right and it wouldn't matter if Wisdom's 20 or 2. For many a ranger, boosting Wisdom has little to no bearing, unless you so keenly wanna take advantage of your lv20 feature, otherwise you might as well pick feats or even boost Con, it's much more useful than boosting Wis.

If Foe Slayer was a lv7 feature or something, it would've been below average but tolerable, primarily because you'd have a reason to boost Wis because of it earlier on. Still, wouldn't have been much to look at, especially considering you have fewer favored enemies earlier. At lv20, it's not just bad, it's insulting.

stoutstien
2022-09-18, 07:01 AM
Decent is stretching it. It's not just only usable once per turn, it can only be activated against favored enemies, which, depending on the campaign's foe variety, can turn it into a complete joke, even if it wasn't a capstone.

On top of that, the basic ranger chassis has little use for Wisdom and many of the subclasses also don't have anything to use it for. Rangers don't get to be SAD for the most part the way all artificers do, they don't have a feature capable of making their spellcasting mod massively important on its own the way paladins have aura of protection, they don't prepare spells so Wisdom doesn't come in there either and not only do they know few spells, most of their best ones (absorb elements, goodberry, hunter's mark, longstrider, lesser/greater restoration, pass without trace, silence, spike growth, conjure animals/woodland beings, plant growth, revivify) don't rely on their modifier either. You can claim your ranger only has the best spells available to him, you'd probably be right and it wouldn't matter if Wisdom's 20 or 2. For many a ranger, boosting Wisdom has little to no bearing, unless you so keenly wanna take advantage of your lv20 feature, otherwise you might as well pick feats or even boost Con, it's much more useful than boosting Wis.

If Foe Slayer was a lv7 feature or something, it would've been below average but tolerable, primarily because you'd have a reason to boost Wis because of it earlier on. Still, wouldn't have been much to look at, especially considering you have fewer favored enemies earlier. At lv20, it's not just bad, it's insulting.

More ranger subclasses have a good reason to push Wis than not. Gloom stalker, beast master(Tasha), swarm, fey wander, drakewarden, and monster slayers all have at least one major feature that calls for moderate to high Wis. Then you have druidic warrior angle. They won't necessarily want to Max it but a +3 or 4 is reasonable.

As for the foe issue if you use the alternative option for it from Tasha then you don't have as big of a hurdle to clear to apply it.

I think it'd be perfectly fine feature around level 10.

**Side tangent
Capstones in general are kind of in a weird place. First off you have to weigh the value against the opportunity cost of the entirety of the class and the fact there is a noticeable chance of never reaching it for in/out of game reasons. That means putting a value on how much weight or design space it take is difficult. Too little and the class looks off but too much and sometimes else will suffer.
Then you have the problem where tables that have the opportunity and the means to reach level 20 what are the chances they going to stop there? Are the PC going to continue to advance and if so are the capstones really capstones?
Both the things are difficult enough to answer before you even bring in variant rules that throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing.

In my opinion there's only two classes that actually have good capstones and that's the paladin and artificer. The paladin has a saving Grace of using subclasses which gives it a much more flexible application and the class it self is solid from 1-20. The artificer builds off itself as well and while strong it is also defensive in nature so its less abrasive. **

kazaryu
2022-09-18, 10:28 AM
More ranger subclasses have a good reason to push Wis than not. Gloom stalker, beast master(Tasha), swarm, fey wander, drakewarden, and monster slayers all have at least one major feature that calls for moderate to high Wis. Then you have druidic warrior angle. They won't necessarily want to Max it but a +3 or 4 is reasonable.

As for the foe issue if you use the alternative option for it from Tasha then you don't have as big of a hurdle to clear to apply it.

I think it'd be perfectly fine feature around level 10.

**Side tangent
Capstones in general are kind of in a weird place. First off you have to weigh the value against the opportunity cost of the entirety of the class and the fact there is a noticeable chance of never reaching it for in/out of game reasons. That means putting a value on how much weight or design space it take is difficult. Too little and the class looks off but too much and sometimes else will suffer.
Then you have the problem where tables that have the opportunity and the means to reach level 20 what are the chances they going to stop there? Are the PC going to continue to advance and if so are the capstones really capstones?
Both the things are difficult enough to answer before you even bring in variant rules that throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing.

In my opinion there's only two classes that actually have good capstones and that's the paladin and artificer. The paladin has a saving Grace of using subclasses which gives it a much more flexible application and the class it self is solid from 1-20. The artificer builds off itself as well and while strong it is also defensive in nature so its less abrasive. **

barbarian capstone is really good, if a bit boring.

+2 to-hit *and* damage that stacks with weapon enhancement bonuses? very nice. its somewhat made worse if you happen to have a belt of cloud giant strength or better, but those are legendary magic items, then on top of that no longer needing to worry about running out of rages means you can rage all the time if you want *and* an extra 40hp. solid feature, even as a lvl 20 feature.

stoutstien
2022-09-18, 10:44 AM
barbarian capstone is really good, if a bit boring.

+2 to-hit *and* damage that stacks with weapon enhancement bonuses? very nice. its somewhat made worse if you happen to have a belt of cloud giant strength or better, but those are legendary magic items, then on top of that no longer needing to worry about running out of rages means you can rage all the time if you want *and* an extra 40hp. solid feature, even as a lvl 20 feature.

sort of. The capstone in isolation looks fine but when you factor in the ~9 levels of blah in front of it you have to question it's value. It's a good example of them putting too much weight on a late feature to try to scale out a stretch of level that frankly suck. Persistent rage is the only thing in there of any real value and at that point of time it's a little late to the party as well.

sithlordnergal
2022-09-18, 03:29 PM
Sorcerer's is definitely not weak, unless you think coffeelocks are weak. I think Bard's should have subclass capstones. They're the only class with only 3 subclass levels, they need one more.

I would disagree...in fact, I'd say the coffeelock is a prime example of why its weak. You basically get a level 20 Sorcerer's capstone at level 5, via 3 levels of Warlock and 2 levels of Sorcerer. And even then, its still not that strong since a Short Rest takes an hour, so you can't really spam them unless the DM lets you, and they all go away on a Long Rest, which you need or you start making Con Saves vs. Exhaustion.

diplomancer
2022-09-18, 03:54 PM
I would disagree...in fact, I'd say the coffeelock is a prime example of why its weak. You basically get a level 20 Sorcerer's capstone at level 5, via 3 levels of Warlock and 2 levels of Sorcerer. And even then, its still not that strong since a Short Rest takes an hour, so you can't really spam them unless the DM lets you, and they all go away on a Long Rest, which you need or you start making Con Saves vs. Exhaustion.

Except by this level Cocainelock (coffeelock who gets Greater Restoration every morning that he fails his save against exhaustion) is quite reasonable.

Anonymouswizard
2022-09-18, 07:16 PM
Honestly my issue with the 'when you roll Initiative you regain resources' capstones is that they feel like they should come online earlier. They imply that characters should really be liberally expending said resources, but with up to three (for Short Rest resources) to eight (for Long Rest resources) combats between refreshes the implication up to that point has been to ration users.

Yes, I know that not every 'encounter' has to be a combat, but with the way modern D&D is set up the majority probably are.

They should really be appearing by level 10 at the latest and getting better from there. However you might have to drop resource maximums to compensate.

As for replacing them, I think honestly just coming up with a whole new capstone might be better. Although I'd rather see subclasses providing capstones as the norm, they tend to be where the real flavour comes from.

kazaryu
2022-09-18, 07:52 PM
sort of. The capstone in isolation looks fine but when you factor in the ~9 levels of blah in front of it you have to question it's value. It's a good example of them putting too much weight on a late feature to try to scale out a stretch of level that frankly suck. Persistent rage is the only thing in there of any real value and at that point of time it's a little late to the party as well.

that isn't a problem with the feature itself, its a problem with the rest of the features. its kinda silly IMO to call a feature bad just because it doesn't make up for a series of other actually bad features.

all that said even indomitable might is a solid feature , and you get a subclass feature, many of which are solid, if not amazing (looking at you zealots. ****ing anime protags). obviously, indomitable might could easily have been a lower level feature (i mean, come on, reliablt talent is what...level 11?) but its still a solid feature. brutal critical is really the only dissapointing feature, much like the champions extended crit range

sithlordnergal
2022-09-18, 08:11 PM
Except by this level Cocainelock (coffeelock who gets Greater Restoration every morning that he fails his save against exhaustion) is quite reasonable.

I mean, by that level you should have the gold to afford 100gp diamond pretty easily. But at that point you should be facing things that can easily hurt you, so at that point your issue becomes HP. And once you run out of Hit Dice, you need at least 2 Long Rests to get them all back. Honestly, I find Coffeelock only becomes an issue if a DM specifically allows the player to get away with a loooot of things, to the point where it really is a non-issue.

Either way, the Sorcerer capstone is still pretty trash since, by that level, you could be getting 10 Sorcery Points per short rest depending on your build.

Hael
2022-09-18, 08:57 PM
In my opinion there's only two classes that actually have good capstones and that's the paladin and artificer.

So the paladins capstones are frequently a mixed bag. A lot of them have action economy problems and/or are replicated by spells many levels earlier.

The druid has an amazing capstone, even for non moon druids, simply b/c of how much utility it can add (and how useful it is for a lot of the more modern druid classes that use wildshape as a resource).

I'd say the Artificer has the best one, followed by the Druid/Barbarian. The cleric is objectively strong but DM dependant and uninspired. The fighter and Paladins are ok I guess. Then most of the other capstones are pretty meh overall, with some that are absolute trash.

stoutstien
2022-09-19, 03:43 AM
that isn't a problem with the feature itself, its a problem with the rest of the features. its kinda silly IMO to call a feature bad just because it doesn't make up for a series of other actually bad features.

all that said even indomitable might is a solid feature , and you get a subclass feature, many of which are solid, if not amazing (looking at you zealots. ****ing anime protags). obviously, indomitable might could easily have been a lower level feature (i mean, come on, reliablt talent is what...level 11?) but its still a solid feature. brutal critical is really the only dissapointing feature, much like the champions extended crit range

Well rage scaling is also pretty lackluster and seeing how that is the focus point of the class that hits hard.
I don't think you can't realistically judge a capstone in isolation. The barbarian comes the closest to being detached from the class but even it has the infinite rage portion. If a feature's worth is based on how it interacts with previous features then previous features need to be taken to consideration when judging it.


So the paladins capstones are frequently a mixed bag. A lot of them have action economy problems and/or are replicated by spells many levels earlier.

The druid has an amazing capstone, even for non moon druids, simply b/c of how much utility it can add (and how useful it is for a lot of the more modern druid classes that use wildshape as a resource).

I'd say the Artificer has the best one, followed by the Druid/Barbarian. The cleric is objectively strong but DM dependant and uninspired. The fighter and Paladins are ok I guess. Then most of the other capstones are pretty meh overall, with some that are absolute trash.

Oh not all the paladin capstones are the best. I'm saying from a design point of view tying the capstone to the sub classes left the best opportunity interacting with the class. I know journal is going to take up more real estate in books and stuff but having subclass focused cap Stones is a better move in my opinion.

Druid have a very good capstone but it also can be excessively annoying. It's probably fair to say that's actually a fault of wild shapes and not the capstone but because they are fully integrated they're one in the same.

I don't like the fighter capstone but seeing how their entire stick is more ASI and more attacks okay I guess. It has a similar problem that the barbarian though where after a certain level they tend to fall off pretty hardcore unless the subclass has a particularly interesting feature you want.

Jerrykhor
2022-09-19, 05:06 AM
Bard
Inspiring Climax
+4 Charisma, maximum score up to 24.
As a bonus action, grant every creature of your choice within 30 feet of you a Bardic Inspiration Die. This cost 2 uses of your Bardic Inspiration.

Fighter
[Extra Attack (3) move to level 17]
Peerless Warrior
The first creature you hit on your turn cannot take reactions
If you reduce a creature to 0 hit points and from full hit points, you can make an additional weapon attack. This does not count towards the Extra Attack feature.
Any simple or martial weapon is a +3 weapon when wielded by you.

Monk
Lightning Reflexes
+4 Dexterity, maximum up to 24
You can take up to 3 reactions before the start of your next turn, and you can use Patient Defense as a Reaction.
Whenever a melee attack miss you, you can make an unarmed attack as a Reaction.

Ranger
Power Ranger
Choose a level 1 Ranger Spell, you can cast it at will.
Hunter's Mark does not require concentration when cast using a spell slot, can apply it on a weapon attack hit, always count as upcasted by 2 levels, and it deals 2d8 damage.

Sorcerer
Sorcery Unleashed
You gain access to all Metamagic options.
You can use unlimited Metamagic options on a spell.

Talamare
2022-09-19, 09:59 AM
Just give them one of their old playtest capstones — 20th level sets all of their ability scores to 20.

I almost did that, but felt it would feel bad for Monks that spent their ASI increasing their stats only to be invalidated by reaching 20.

My solution accomplishes the same thing without that negative feeling.

kazaryu
2022-09-19, 10:11 AM
Well rage scaling is also pretty lackluster and seeing how that is the focus point of the class that hits hard.
I don't think you can't realistically judge a capstone in isolation. The barbarian comes the closest to being detached from the class but even it has the infinite rage portion. If a feature's worth is based on how it interacts with previous features then previous features need to be taken to consideration when judging it.

sure, but im talking about how a feature interacts with other features. not how it compares to other features.

so like...take the original printing of arcane archer. IIRC its 3rd level feature specifically only applied to magical arrows. meaning you needed your 7th level feature to actually use is. Or like...just monks in general. part of the reason they're such a mess is that so much about them is tradeoffs. and they're basically the only martial class that does it. you can BA dodge...at the cost of half your DPR. you can boost your dex to make hitting more likely...at the cost of boosting your wisdom, so its easier to save against your stunning strike, which is the big reason you want to hit in the first place. im talking about features that don't play well together.

or...OH. sorcerer metamagic. you get another metamagic choice at 10th level...but thats pretty weak since its pretty much guaranteed to be what you consider to be the 3rd best metamagic option (possibly 5th depending on feat choices).

whereas the barb capstone doesn't really interact with previous features. it stands alone, and as such should be judged alone. we're not talking about a feature that contradicts previous features. we're talking about a feature thats considered lackluster because people expect it to make up for a few really bad features that the barb gets up to that point. idk, i just don't understand the idea behind that.

Greywander
2022-09-20, 12:45 AM
I'm a fan of turning abilities that cost resources into some form of at-will ability. I also don't like abilities that trigger on rolling initiative, because initiative is a game abstraction. All that does is lead to situations where the players will start a fight with each other so that they can roll initiative and get a resource back, then immediately end combat. I'd prefer to avoid a mechanic that allows players to game the system like that. With that in mind, here's some of my thoughts:

Bard

Unending Inspiration
Starting at 20th level, whenever you use a feature that uses a Bardic Inspiration die, you can roll a d6 and use it instead of expending a Bardic Inspiration die.

Monk

Perfect Self
Beginning at 20th level, if you start your turn with less than 4 ki points, you regain 1 ki point.

Sorcerer

Sorcerous Restoration
When you reach 20th level, you have become so attuned to the source of your magic that you are never fully depleted of magical energy.
At the start of each of your turns, if you have fewer than 4 sorcery points then you regain 1 sorcery point.

Now, this is just off the cuff, but some of these are alternative capstones that I've proposed before. Haven't had a chance to playtest any of these, though, so further tweaking might be required.

sithlordnergal
2022-09-20, 02:24 PM
I'm a fan of turning abilities that cost resources into some form of at-will ability. I also don't like abilities that trigger on rolling initiative, because initiative is a game abstraction. All that does is lead to situations where the players will start a fight with each other so that they can roll initiative and get a resource back, then immediately end combat. I'd prefer to avoid a mechanic that allows players to game the system like that. With that in mind, here's some of my thoughts:

Bard

Unending Inspiration
Starting at 20th level, whenever you use a feature that uses a Bardic Inspiration die, you can roll a d6 and use it instead of expending a Bardic Inspiration die.

Monk

Perfect Self
Beginning at 20th level, if you start your turn with less than 4 ki points, you regain 1 ki point.

Sorcerer

Sorcerous Restoration
When you reach 20th level, you have become so attuned to the source of your magic that you are never fully depleted of magical energy.
At the start of each of your turns, if you have fewer than 4 sorcery points then you regain 1 sorcery point.

Now, this is just off the cuff, but some of these are alternative capstones that I've proposed before. Haven't had a chance to playtest any of these, though, so further tweaking might be required.

Hmmm, I like these for the most part, especially the Bard. In fact, I'd say the Bard is perfect. I do have the following suggestions for the Monk and Sorcerer:

---Monk---

Have the Ki Point regen start at and cap at 6 points, and give them 1 Ki Point per turn. That way they can always use Empty Body, and have 2 Ki Points remaining for any subclass abilities, instead of using Empty Body and having to wait 3 to 4 rounds to use their subclass abilities. Since most abilities only cost around 3 Ki Points, the Monk will be able to use them the very next round, or decide to forego them to flurry and stun targets

You could have them regen 2 points every round, but since the majority of Monk abilities only cost 1 Ki Point, I think regaining 1 point is perfectly fine.

---Sorcerer---

Have the Sorcery Point regen start at and cap at 5 points, and give them 2 points per turn. The best metamagic options generally cost 2 or more Sorcery Points, so having them regain 2 per turn basically lets them use metamagic an unlimited number of times. It also lets them stock up on 3rd level slots if they want. Which is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned, since Wizards get an unlimited 1st and 2nd level spell that they can change at the end of a long rest by level 18.


Basically, if it costs a resource, make the resource plentiful enough that they don't have to worry about resource management as much.

CTurbo
2022-09-20, 04:29 PM
I'm a fan of turning abilities that cost resources into some form of at-will ability. I also don't like abilities that trigger on rolling initiative, because initiative is a game abstraction. All that does is lead to situations where the players will start a fight with each other so that they can roll initiative and get a resource back, then immediately end combat. I'd prefer to avoid a mechanic that allows players to game the system like that.

I've never seen and would never allow a player to spam Initiative like that, but I agree with Capstone granting abilities that cost resources into at-will abilities.

For the Sorcerer, I think granting them 1 or 2 metamagics that they can use at-will would be great.

For the Monk, letting them choose between Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, or Patient Defense and letting them use one of them at-will would be great.

For the Bard, go ahead and give them Inspiration Dice at-will. Sure it's strong, but so is infinite Wildshape.

For the Ranger, I really like at-will Hunter's Mark with no concentration.

Amechra
2022-09-21, 03:01 AM
Monk
Lightning Reflexes
+4 Dexterity, maximum up to 24
You can take up to 3 reactions before the start of your next turn, and you can use Patient Defense as a Reaction.
Whenever a melee attack miss you, you can make an unarmed attack as a Reaction.

I kinda like this one, just because it's hilariously absurd.

Jerrykhor
2022-09-21, 03:26 AM
I kinda like this one, just because it's hilariously absurd.

Thanks, capstones should be absurd.

H_H_F_F
2022-09-21, 04:34 AM
I feel like "free heighten every turn" is both too powerful and just boring. Making the sorcerer a one trick pony by design sort of kills off what little versatility they have left. I'd rather just allowing them to implement two metamagics on the same spell, maybe with some resource management help like the current capstone.


I think Bard's should have subclass capstones. They're the only class with only 3 subclass levels, they need one more.

Check out the half caster bard in my signature. The level 18 features might give you some ideas to work with.

Lunali
2022-09-21, 07:07 AM
Of the ones you cited, 4/5 are only bad because by 20th level DMs typically stop giving enough encounters per day for attrition to matter.