Earliest level you can cast polymorph any object?

[Soranar]

The fastest way I can pull off is warlock 4/artificer 1

Artificer gets scribe scroll for free and can create any magic item through a UMD check (warlock 12 can too but that's way higher level)

The earliest I can figure out is level 5 but I'm wondering if you guys can make that even lower?


At level 5 you have 8 ranks in UMD

10 (deceive item)+ 8 (ranks) + 6 (mage's spectacle souldmeld through shape souldmeld with 1 essentia invested) + 3 skill focus = 27

a familiar (through obtain familiar) with aid another would give me another +2 = 29

18 CHA +3 venerable +1 from level = CHA 22

So a venerable azurin with the following progression

1 warlock shape souldmeld (mage's spectacles), skill focus (UMD)
2 warlock
3 warlock obtain familiar
4 warlock +1 CHA
5 artificer

[Quertus]

UMD = 29

Ah, and for those of us in the peanut gallery, the target number is…?

(Also, why azurin?)

[Max Caysey]

The fastest way I can pull off is warlock 4/artificer 1

Artificer gets scribe scroll for free and can create any magic item through a UMD check (warlock 12 can too but that's way higher level)

The earliest I can figure out is level 5 but I'm wondering if you guys can make that even lower?


At level 5 you have 8 ranks in UMD

10 (deceive item)+ 8 (ranks) + 6 (mage's spectacle souldmeld through shape souldmeld with 1 essentia invested) + 3 skill focus = 27

a familiar (through obtain familiar) with aid another would give me another +2 = 29

18 CHA +3 venerable +1 from level = CHA 22

So a venerable azurin with the following progression

1 warlock shape souldmeld (mage's spectacles), skill focus (UMD)
2 warlock
3 warlock obtain familiar
4 warlock +1 CHA
5 artificer

Cleric 3, cast Guidance of The Avatar for +20 to UMD, then use scroll of PAO!

Marshal 1, with motivate charisma. Use that to cast Guidance of the Avatar from scroll, then use that to cast PAO from scroll!

[Soranar]

Ah, and for those of us in the peanut gallery, the target number is…?

(Also, why azurin?)

target number is 35 according to artificer rules: 20 + caster level required for the spell (level 8 spell so minimum caster level is 15 so 35 total)

azurin gives you 1 essentia to spend on mage's spectacle through the shape souldmeld feat for another +2 to UMD

[Soranar]

Nevermind I just reread the artificer rules and you need a minimum caster level of your artificer level +2 to create a magic item so it looks like the earliest you can cast it is warlock 12 since imbue item has no such rule.

was trying to finagle a way into beholder mage early but it's not going to work

[Jack_Simth]

A Leapfrog Wizard (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9) gets 9ths. Get PaO into your spellbook, and then you are good to go.

[Anthrowhale]

You could always pay for someone else to cast it if standard spellcasting services are available.

[Jervis]

Nevermind I just reread the artificer rules and you need a minimum caster level of your artificer level +2 to create a magic item so it looks like the earliest you can cast it is warlock 12 since imbue item has no such rule.

was trying to finagle a way into beholder mage early but it's not going to work

Technically the minimum caster level for PaO is 8 because of that one class that gets Ur-Preist progression on domain spells (trickery in this case). For that class the minimum CL for a spell is equal to class level. So a artificer of 6th level could make it. From there hitting the UMD DC is trivial since you can just make a scroll or schema of any of the skill check boosting spells to get absurd bonuses. No Essentia required.

[Troacctid]

Well, a scroll of it costs 3,000 gp. With Mercantile Background, you can cut that down to 2,250 gp. That's within level 3 WBL. Ka-chow!

[Jervis]

Well, a scroll of it costs 3,000 gp. With Mercantile Background, you can cut that down to 2,250 gp. That's within level 3 WBL. Ka-chow!

You know it never stops surprising me how easy it is for money to solve all your problems in 3.5. It’s like the meme of one guy taking 5 levels in a PrC and 3 feats for a fly speed while someone else just pays a doctor to stitch wings too him.

[KillianHawkeye]

You know it never stops surprising me how easy it is for money to solve all your problems in 3.5. It’s like the meme of one guy taking 5 levels in a PrC and 3 feats for a fly speed while someone else just pays a doctor to stitch wings too him.

The Flash: "What's your super power?"

Batman: "I'm rich."

[Soranar]

So a level 3 muckdweller with mercantile background can buy a scroll of PAO and turn himself into a sarrukh which, as buffs go, is pretty significant .

The 30 INT alone should make this worth it.

I was hoping to turn into a beholder and become a beholder mage but I can't find a race close enough to a beholder for it to work in 1 spell. At least the muckdweller and the sarrukh are both reptilian monstrous humanoid.

I realize it's the basis for Pun-Pun but I'm not trying to get infinite stats I just want a really high INT score

[Jervis]

So a level 3 muckdweller with mercantile background can buy a scroll of PAO and turn himself into a sarrukh which, as buffs go, is pretty significant .

The 30 INT alone should make this worth it.

I was hoping to turn into a beholder and become a beholder mage but I can't find a race close enough to a beholder for it to work in 1 spell. At least the muckdweller and the sarrukh are both reptilian monstrous humanoid.

I realize it's the basis for Pun-Pun but I'm not trying to get infinite stats I just want a really high INT score

Elan is a 0 LA aberration. That’s about as close as you’ll get. They’re both animal and probably qualify as the same class, it’s debatable is all aberrations are related. If you started with 17 Int or had some way to make yourself large you could probably stick with it. That said I suspect that this won’t end well in actual play.

Also lorewise I believe lizardfolk and kobolds are more closely related to Sarruk

[Malphegor]

There is the dumb trick with artificers to cast sublime chord spells early I guess. Artificer spell emulation is based on level +3, sublime chords have a lower caster level by default, so you can fake being in a prc trying to be a sorcerer to get sor/wiz spells early, getting you 9ths by level 6.

[SimonMoon6]

This might not be the lowest, nor would it help with beholder mage probably, but:

You can get the ability to cast polymorph any object by 11th level in Pathfinder.

You just have to take the feysworn prestige class and worship the Lantern King.

[Soranar]

I hadn't noticed the HD requirement of polymorph any object so the point is moot anyway:

a sarrukh has 15 hd so you need to have at least 15 hd to turn into one

in the same vein you need 11 hd to turn into a beholder

[icefractal]

Pretty sure PaO doesn't have that requirement, given that one of the example uses in the spell is "lizard to manticore".

[Jervis]

I hadn't noticed the HD requirement of polymorph any object so the point is moot anyway:

a sarrukh has 15 hd so you need to have at least 15 hd to turn into one

in the same vein you need 11 hd to turn into a beholder

Not exactly practical optimization and very cheesy but lycanthropy or that bard ability to temporarily gain HD is an option

[Menzath]

I hadn't noticed the HD requirement of polymorph any object so the point is moot anyway:

a sarrukh has 15 hd so you need to have at least 15 hd to turn into one

in the same vein you need 11 hd to turn into a beholder

You know what solves HD problems? Bards. Just hire some bards for Inspire greatness. Get 2 untyped bonus HD per bard singing.

Money wins again.

[Rebel7284]

You know what solves HD problems? Bards. Just hire some bards for Inspire greatness. Get 2 untyped bonus HD per bard singing.

Money wins again.

This probably runs afoul of the stacking rules. Same ability = same source in my eyes, even if you have multiple bards with the same ability. Your mileage may vary.

I have a build that can inspire up to 9HD, however that takes at mid-level character to pull off.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-Maker

[Crake]

I think you'll find that, no matter how high you bump your UMD skill, you won't be able to make a PAO scroll as an artificer until level 13:


For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level artificer can make a scroll of fireball, since the minimum caster level for fireball is 5th.

Scrolls, unlike most other magical items, DO actually have a minimum caster level requirement. While an artificer can ignore spell prerequisites with a UMD check, they cannot ignore the minimum caster level requirements.

[Soranar]

I think you'll find that, no matter how high you bump your UMD skill, you won't be able to make a PAO scroll as an artificer until level 13:



Scrolls, unlike most other magical items, DO actually have a minimum caster level requirement. While an artificer can ignore spell prerequisites with a UMD check, they cannot ignore the minimum caster level requirements.

there are 2 ways around this, if you have the spell on your list it's option A (assuming you have 18 in your casting stat)

but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully

Of you use UMD there's also a rule for that

Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

The most reliable (and simple) way seems to be to be a warlock 4, buy the scroll then UMD the scroll to use it (since you can take 10 on your UMD check, no way to fail). Otherwise you're stuck creating one at level 12 with imbue item

The other way is to have the spell on your list with 18 in the right stat, then make a caster level check which is not ideal since the spell is level 8 + 1 = DC 9. So trying to cast it before level 8 is risky.

[Anthrowhale]

Arcane Mastery is pretty good for reliably casting high level scrolls at low levels.

[AvatarVecna]

There is the dumb trick with artificers to cast sublime chord spells early I guess. Artificer spell emulation is based on level +3, sublime chords have a lower caster level by default, so you can fake being in a prc trying to be a sorcerer to get sor/wiz spells early, getting you 9ths by level 6.

Artificer spell emulation is class lvl +2, not +3. But yeah this is probably the best path for artificer: a Wizard 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 5 casts lvl 8 spells from the bard/sorcerer/wizard list at CL 8 (assuming they built SC CL off Bard instead of Wizard). So Artificer 6 could do PAO.

[Crake]

there are 2 ways around this, if you have the spell on your list it's option A (assuming you have 18 in your casting stat)

but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully

Of you use UMD there's also a rule for that

Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

The most reliable (and simple) way seems to be to be a warlock 4, buy the scroll then UMD the scroll to use it (since you can take 10 on your UMD check, no way to fail). Otherwise you're stuck creating one at level 12 with imbue item

The other way is to have the spell on your list with 18 in the right stat, then make a caster level check which is not ideal since the spell is level 8 + 1 = DC 9. So trying to cast it before level 8 is risky.


An artificer can also make Use Magic Device checks to emulate nonspell requirements, including alignment and race, using the normal DCs for the skill. He cannot emulate skill or feat requirements, however, including item creation feat prerequisites. He must meet the caster level prerequisite, including the minimum level to cast a spell he stores in a potion, wand, or scroll.

There is no UMD check to emulate a caster level, and casting from a scroll does not cover the use case here. Because potions, wands, and scrolls actually do have caster level REQUIREMENTS, and UMD doesn't cover that, an artificer is hard capped on what potions, wands and scrolls he can create by his artificer level+2. Hence, as an 8th level spell, normally requiring a caster level of 15, an artificer can make a scroll of polymorph any object at level 13.

Warlock's imbue item doesn't help either, as they can, again, only bypass spell requirements, but since scrolls, potions and wands all have CL requirements as well, the warlock would need to meet those.

[AvatarVecna]

There is no UMD check to emulate a caster level, and casting from a scroll does not cover the use case here. Because potions, wands, and scrolls actually do have caster level REQUIREMENTS, and UMD doesn't cover that, an artificer is hard capped on what potions, wands and scrolls he can create by his artificer level+2. Hence, as an 8th level spell, normally requiring a caster level of 15, an artificer can make a scroll of polymorph any object at level 13.

Warlock's imbue item doesn't help either, as they can, again, only bypass spell requirements, but since scrolls, potions and wands all have CL requirements as well, the warlock would need to meet those.

An important note from the SRD:


Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

The "wizard or cleric when possible" assumption is perfectly fine in a core-only game, but material outside of core can grant access to spells at lower spells levels and lower minimum caster levels than is generally possible in core, and puts this "here's how we priced the stuff here" paragraph in conflict with the "here's how things should be priced" paragraph. Some such builds are arguably kinda nonsense, like the theoretical Sublime Chord mentioned who casts lvl 8 spells at CL 8 is obviously manipulating their CL for cheap crafting (which would be more legit if that was my actual build, but it's not I'm an artificer mimicking their stunted casting). Buuuuuuut a Divine Crusader expects you to enter via a full BAB class, and doesn't do any weird "stacking caster levels" tricks the way things like Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord do, so intended entry has a Divine Crusader casting their lvl 8 spell (the one they know, from their singular domain) at CL 8. No cheesy build necessary, that's just how a Divine Crusader is supposed to be built. Small spells known list, very limited slots, and half the normal CL for their spell level.

[Soranar]

There is no UMD check to emulate a caster level, and casting from a scroll does not cover the use case here. Because potions, wands, and scrolls actually do have caster level REQUIREMENTS, and UMD doesn't cover that, an artificer is hard capped on what potions, wands and scrolls he can create by his artificer level+2. Hence, as an 8th level spell, normally requiring a caster level of 15, an artificer can make a scroll of polymorph any object at level 13.

Warlock's imbue item doesn't help either, as they can, again, only bypass spell requirements, but since scrolls, potions and wands all have CL requirements as well, the warlock would need to meet those.

that's very much up for debate if you check the wording on imbue item:

A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat).

There's no mention of caster level here. The only requirement they give to create a magic item is having the appropriate feat.

As a DM I'd probably use your interpretation but if you go with RAW it plainly says : all you need is the feat not all you need is the feat and the appropriate caster level.

None of this changes the fact that the warlock can just buy the scroll and cast it through a UMD check at level 4 with no chance of failure nor does it change that, like an artificer, a warlock with imbue item can create magic items by using spells (and caster levels ) from weird classes like a divine crusader or a sublime chord. So, no matter what, a warlock can cast polymorph any object at level 4 with a scroll he bought or he can make one at level 12 with imbue item (assuming he has scribe scroll).

[Beni-Kujaku]

A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat).

As a DM I'd probably use your interpretation but if you go with RAW it plainly says : all you need is the feat not all you need is the feat and the appropriate caster level.

There's absolutely not written "all you need is the feat". There's written "you do need the feat". When nothing is written, you default to... well, the default rules. That is, you need to fulfill all the requirements. The text says that you do not need to know the spells, so that's that requirement out of the way, but a non-elf warlock would not be able to craft Boots of Elvenkind, for example.

[Yogibear41]

I hadn't noticed the HD requirement of polymorph any object so the point is moot anyway:

a sarrukh has 15 hd so you need to have at least 15 hd to turn into one

in the same vein you need 11 hd to turn into a beholder

Pretty sure shrew don't have as many HD as a manticore, but apparently you can make that transformation.

[Drelua]

Not sure if it helps, but isn't there a creature in MMII that's CR 4 and has PAO as a spell-like at CL 20? I couldn't find it, but if you can find one of those and bargain with it, or charm or dominate it, that might work. I don't remember what creature type it is or how smart it is though, so I don't know if that's possible.

[Soranar]

Pretty sure shrew don't have as many HD as a manticore, but apparently you can make that transformation.

honestly most of the examples given don't work if you take into account alter self's HD rule

pebble to human

nevermind the size rule (you can only transform into something 1 size category from your own size)

pebble to human

even shrew to manticore could work if the shrew was a wizard's high level familiar but you still have the size issue

it's not a well written spell

[SimonMoon6]

it's not a well written spell

Basically, it's not a well-translated spell. It was translated over from 1st/2nd edition and kept all that wording from the earlier editions. But the makers of 3rd edition weren't too focused on the polymorph branch of spells (as seen by the many nerfs to "polymorph self" and "polymorph other" aka "polymorph" and "baleful polymorph"). It was far more important to make sure that monks had a flavorful ability at every level than worrying about how spells work.