Ways to make characters less squishy

[calam]

I'm currently GMing pathfinder and I want to make it less likely for players to die if they slip into negatives since I don't want the players to have to factor in raise dead spells when they're in mid level, especially since they don't have a cleric. Are there any variant rules or homebrews that can help prevent players unceremoniously dying from a lucky critical or by getting full attacked at mid to late level?

[Fizban]

I mean, sure there are tons and it's easy enough to make one up yourself (increase the negative hit point range to X, or even adopt the 5e system where you stop at zero and it takes X rounds/strikes to kill you regardless of stated hp value), but I think the better option is to fix dying being such a problem in the first place. Insta-death spells eventually show up, and alongside those it ought to be allowed that the same way a squishy Fort save can mean instant death, being a low-hp/low-AC character can mean instant death to full attack.

Give them a spell with a reasonable cost that can revive people for a few minutes after they're dead, and they can finish the fight and pick up the fallen. This lets them learn their actual limits without retcons or putting things in the past and making a new character make all the same mistakes. It's also how the early JRPGs (which took huge piles of inspiration from DnD of course) did things.

The more I've thought about it, the weirder it gets that people want to cling to a death=final system so hard, trying to expand the not-quite-dead range or use sharply limited "you have only a 6 second window during this fight you were already losing to fix it" patches to fix a fundamentally not great idea. 3.0 deaths were cheap, the level loss was the real problem. 3.5 changes the xp system so you can catch up about 1 lost level per 3 levels gained, but then jacks up the gp cost so you can't afford to die and see that xp boost anyway.

Heck, if you want an xp penalty for dying even when raising is easy, you could take away the xp from the fight where you died (a common misconception made true), though that will still have the problem of penalizing the people who stand in harms way rather than the people who coward out.


Fix rez costs and windows:

Delay Death and Revenance: removed.
Vivify: 4th, usable within 1 min/level, return at -1hp as raise dead but with no penalties, 500gp. Most things that reference the revivify (SpC) spell instead now use vivify.
Raise Dead: 5th, as normal (within 1 day/level) but 1,500gp, and instead of losing a level you gain a negative level that sticks until you level up.
Revive: 6th, as vivify but target returns at 1/2 of their full hit points (still 500gp).
Resurrection: 7th, as normal but 3,000gp and instead of losing a level you gain a negative level that sticks until you level up.
True Resurrection: 9th, as normal but 5,000gp.

The high end spells might be a little too cheap, but Resurrection also needs to be accessible to lower level characters who get their bodies destroyed. I don't think I'd push True Rez past 10,000.

[StSword]

If you don't want characters to die automatically from negative hit points,
you could adapt this 3e zero hit point alternative (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/deathAndDying.htm#zeroHitPoints) rule.

If you want less squishy in general, there's the "Armor converts damage to nonlethal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm)" option.

Hero points (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/hero-points/#Using_Hero_Points) have a cheat death option.

That's what I can think of offhand.

Although I suppose one could combine Armor as Damage Reduction (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) with Defense Bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) hacks which would mean that being harder to hit is a bonus from leveling like saving throws and hit dice, while wearing armor just makes the character less squishy.

[Quertus]

I'm currently GMing pathfinder and I want to make it less likely for players to die if they slip into negatives since I don't want the players to have to factor in raise dead spells when they're in mid level, especially since they don't have a cleric. Are there any variant rules or homebrews that can help prevent players unceremoniously dying from a lucky critical or by getting full attacked at mid to late level?

Homebrew? Well, gee, if you’re open to homebrew, let’s make some!

Die at negative total HP.

SoD effects take you to -9 HP, rather than kill you outright.

“Raise Dead” (etc) is replaced with “CPR”, which is just a heal check, DC = negative HP total. Continue bleeding out past -10, btw.

Import “Amulet of Emergency Healing” from 3e. Give everyone and their familiar one as a quest reward.

Does that suffice? Or do you need more?

[Jervis]

One 3.5 rule that you might consider is the companion spirit for shroud. It makes it so characters always act under gentle repose so (debatable) they can be raised with Revivify instead of raise dead. That’s slightly less punishing

[Quertus]

One 3.5 rule that you might consider is the companion spirit for shroud. It makes it so characters always act under gentle repose so (debatable) they can be raised with Revivify instead of raise dead. That’s slightly less punishing

I’ve never had anyone claim that this (one of my favorite tricks) was debatable. Care to explain why it might not work?

(Obviously, if the OP likes this, they can rule / house rule however they want; I’m just curious for my own sake.)

[pabelfly]

I'm currently GMing pathfinder and I want to make it less likely for players to die if they slip into negatives since I don't want the players to have to factor in raise dead spells when they're in mid level, especially since they don't have a cleric. Are there any variant rules or homebrews that can help prevent players unceremoniously dying from a lucky critical or by getting full attacked at mid to late level?

Here's an alternative idea. Let's say you "kill" a character and you want that character to stay around. Why not come up with a story idea where an NPC will resurrect the dead character, but only if the group agrees to do some work for the NPC?

[Jervis]

I’ve never had anyone claim that this (one of my favorite tricks) was debatable. Care to explain why it might not work?

(Obviously, if the OP likes this, they can rule / house rule however they want; I’m just curious for my own sake.)

Revivify specifies that it must be cast within one round of the creatures death while raise dead etc just says the creature must not have been dead for longer than X. Gentle repose also says that days don’t count against the time limit but not rounds. The last one is a weaker argument than the first. Personally I rule that it works so gentle repose + Revivify is something I allow and encourage but I’ve heard people argue that it doesn’t work because of the above.

[Biggus]

As previously mentioned, in 3.5 there's the Revivify spell (SpC). If anyone in the party has UMD, get them to carry a scroll. The Bard in the party I DM for has saved characters several times that way.

[Fizban]

Also, don't I just look like an idiot for supplying my usual rez fix rant when the second sentence clearly says no Cleric and a desire to avoid spells entirely. Still, I don't think I'd change my response much. There are any number of simple ways you can just change how the death thresholds work, but there's also a critical problem in the main one that can be fixed without changing them.

Particularly when more people (possibly caused by my own over-eagerness) jump immediately to the Revivify spell and ways to hack around the 1-round limit. The problem is that Revivify sucks. If you've got a problem with a no-Cleric party needing to not die, the solution is most definitely not a 5th level Cleric spell that must be cast within 6 seconds after death, or a combo that requires another spell cast within 6 seconds of death (or the true combo of Revenance+Revivify, which can be done minutes after death, and is what made me initially realize that the middle spells should be cut out and made into what I posted).

So, sorry for possibly poisoning the well there. But even without a Cleric you can keep the old death thresholds (which are good for low-level gritty play and transition themselves naturally into "heroes that fight until they drop dead standing" at later levels). If they have other casters, make Vivify etc available to other casters. Or let them buy consumables, which they would need to pull of the RAW combos with any regularity anyway- a "potion" of my 4th level Vivify spell is 1,900gp, cheap enough that the party should be able to easily afford a couple on hand at all times as long as they don't actually need to chug them constantly, depending on what you mean by "mid-level."

Otherwise, yeah just use the 5e method. If you really want to stop random sudden death regardless of party composition, the only reliable way to do so is to just do it. Just don't forget that there are also all sorts of Save or Die spells that will be showing up soon enough to do the same thing regardless of changes to the hit point system.

[Thane of Fife]

One thing that I have considered before (though I have not tried it) is to have characters who would die instead roll on a "Death Table." Probably you would roll on the table when someone checks on you or at the end of the encounter, or something like that.

The Death Table would look something like this:

1. They're dead, Jim.
2. Maimed. Roll another die and the character loses 1. Eye, 2. Arm, 3. Leg, 4. Hand, 5. 1d4 fingers, 6. Ear. Additionally, the character is basically unconscious until they have some substantial period of rest.
3. Serious Wound. The character can be revived and healed back up, but their maximum hit points are reduced by 50% until they have some substantial period of rest.
4. Light Wound. Same as above, but maybe only a 10% reduction.
5. Robbed. Some valuable item in the character's possession is lost or destroyed. Otherwise, the character can be healed up and revived.
6. Vision. Not only can the character be revived and healed, but they had a vision while on the brink of death, so you give them some clue or an action point or let them reroll a future saving throw or something.

You may want to change any or all of these results (for example, you might say that some wounds reduce the number of spells you can cast), but the idea is that there is some risk of a serious consequence, but they're mostly not too bad.

[Quertus]

Revivify specifies that it must be cast within one round of the creatures death while raise dead etc just says the creature must not have been dead for longer than X. Gentle repose also says that days don’t count against the time limit but not rounds. The last one is a weaker argument than the first. Personally I rule that it works so gentle repose + Revivify is something I allow and encourage but I’ve heard people argue that it doesn’t work because of the above.

How… excessively pedantic. I like it! :smallbiggrin:

(I’m still keeping revivify + gentle repose, though). :smallwink:

[StSword]

Oh it doesn't help directly with characters not dying, but the Reserve points (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm#:~:text=Reserve%20points%20effec tively%20double%20the,withstand%20in%20a%20single% 20fight.) alternative rules helps with the "has no healers" bit.

Ditto the Wounds and Vigor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/wounds-and-vigor/) rules, in which most damage is taken to vigor, which naturally heals completely after a full night's rest.

[Maat Mons]

Death in Pathfinder isn’t as bad as death in 3.5. Pathfinder doesn’t have level loss. So you can always just use the cheapest spell. Pathfinder also has the Blood Money spell, which lets you ignore material component costs. At 11th level, a Shaman with the Lore spirit or a Witch with the Healing or Mercy patron can easily pull off the Blood Money + Raise Dead + Blood Money + Restoration combo, if they have at least 13 Strength. Just put in a friendly NPC willing to throw a few spell slots at the PCs.

[Bohandas]

maybe some of the hitpoint damage could under certain circumstances be soaked up as ability damage? That way you'd have a few dozen more points as a buffer, but anyone who gets to the point where they have to use that buffer ends up like they'd been in a real fight, hobbling around and concussed and stuff until they get a week or two to recuperate.

[StSword]

There's also the injury (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm) rules which does away with hit points altogether.

Instead characters make a fortitude roll whenever they are successfully attacked-the more damage it would normally do, the higher the difficulty.

.If the roll is a success, no damage whatsoever.

A failure you take a hit, each hit gives you a cumulative penalty on further fortitude rolls to resist injury.

When a character fails the resist injury roll by at least ten points, they are then disabled.

If you are hit after being disabled, then you are dying.

So if you use these rules, no single hit could ever kill a player character.

And nonlethal damage explicitly cannot port over to lethal damage in this system, so a character with the ability to convert damage like say with the Spheres of Power Endure Pain talent or the Damage Conversion armor rules I mentioned above is even harder to kill.

[Kurald Galain]

It's not at all my experience that mid-level PF characters are squishy, even without a cleric (and most groups don't have a cleric).


Revivify specifies that it must be cast within one round of the creatures death while raise dead etc just says the creature must not have been dead for longer than X.
Pathfinder has the same spell, it's called Breath of Life. By all means give the PCs a few scrolls of that.

There are items that protect against a lucky crit, such as the Buffering Cap; and feats, such as Fortified Armor Training. If your players are simply underinvesting in Armor Class, just drop a few more rings of protection and/or amulets of natural armor as loot. Finally, you could simply have an NPC raise them as a favor if needed. HTH.

[RNightstalker]

You could also do max hit points at each level.
Masters of the Wild had Arrows of Cure x that the party could use if there's an archer, or they could just stab themselves, but you'll have to cheapen the price.
I agree with doing away with the -10 threshold as well.
My father houseruled what he called HP Rings, that could be worn (one on each hand) that didn't count against the two magical ring limit. How many HP those rings provide can be up to you.

[smetzger]

I'm currently GMing pathfinder and I want to make it less likely for players to die if they slip into negatives since I don't want the players to have to factor in raise dead spells when they're in mid level, especially since they don't have a cleric. Are there any variant rules or homebrews that can help prevent players unceremoniously dying from a lucky critical or by getting full attacked at mid to late level?

My House Rules - I give out a Hero Point every now and then when they accomplish something noteworthy,
A Hero Point can be used to do automatically hit, make a hit auto miss you, auto make a save etc.

I also will give out a hero point if I want to hand wave a bad guy getting away.

[rel]

3.5 has the reduced criticals rule in DMG which can be ported trivially to pathfinder if it doesn't already exist.

Removing power attack from enemy stat blocks limits damage

Switching Con poison to Str with special effects that will eventually kill the PC without an antidote if they hit 0 str stops a lot of instant death from bad rolls

Deleting or modifying any straight save or die effects in enemy stat blocks prevents unexpected deaths from a poor roll.

Finally, you can add rules allowing PC's that die from HP damage to instead suffer a crippling wound.