Consensus on the workings of PAO and Reserve of Strength...

[Max Caysey]

I see a lot of PAO and Reserve of Strength being mentioned at the moment... That got me thinking about the two things and how they work.

So, firstly is there a limit on the HD of creature one can turn into with PAO? The spell itself does not specifically mention one, but refers to Polymorph, which has a hard limit on 15 HD... So which one is it? None, 1HD per CL, or 15?

Secondly, is there a limit to how much Reserve of Strength can alter or increase level caps on spells? I see difference views. Some say there is no limit combining it with PAO to turn into a Great Wyrm Time Dragon... other mention that the feat only states up to +3... So which one is it? No limit or +3?

I understand that since this is debated topics I'm probably not going to get a single answer, but I'm still curious because it seems to be a hot topic on late...again... And there is a very VERY large difference in the power level of the two depending on interpretation/ reading.

I don't really care about what is more balanced atm, I'm just curious if there is a consensus on the matter...

Cheers!

[tyckspoon]

I don't believe there is anything even approaching consensus on either of those, but for my opinions:

Poly Any Object has explicit examples in its duration tables that are only even -possible- if the spell is allowed to ignore Polymorph's Type and HD restrictions. So this entire paragraph from Polymorph (and by extension the similar text in Alter Form)


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Where it defines the restrictions on what something can be turned into, ignore it. POA don't care. Turn anything into anything, use the tables in POA to determine how long it lasts. Reserves of Strength does nothing to POA because the HD/CL restriction is part of the text we are discarding.


For Reserves of Strength itself:
While I believe the fairly clear intent of the feat is that you may only exceed limits by the amount of bonus you got from the feat (IE, you can increase the cap on a spell by 1/2/3 increments by using Reserves for 1/2/3 bonus CL).. I think gramatically and structurally they did not do this, and the more correct RAW interpretation is that the 'your spells are uncapped' clause is separate from the 'you can stun yourself for bonus CL' clause.

[Quertus]

AFB, so I’ll hit PaO later.

Reserves of Strength? There are multiple valid readings of the English text of that ability. Personally, I would accept capped or uncapped, only when actively used or passively always in, so long as the end result character was balanced to the table.

In fact, I’d accept multiple different readings in the same party, so long as each character was balanced.

[icefractal]

Based on the examples, PAO clearly doesn't have the "new HD <= old HD" limit. Whether it still has the 15 HD limit is unclear. It would be somewhat odd but not non-functional if it did.

RoS, I agree with tyckspoon - the intent seems very likely to only increase the cap by 1-3, but that's not how it's written.

[Anthrowhale]

For me:

RoS is capped at 3. I expect most DMs will rule this way out of necessity, since it's to broken otherwise.

PAO only has explicit exceptions w.r.t. polymorph. One of those eliminates target HD constraints, but nothing eliminates caster level constraints.

Given the above RoS does apply to PAO and allows you to transform into up to 18HD creatures.

[Feantar]

On the Reserves of Strength feat question: It is obvious to me they intended to make it a +3 max (even the example takes it to +3), but the way it is worded it does not have that limitation. So it's a RAW vs RAI. I generally allow uncapping but it can be broken sometimes. I've had a DM which allowed uncapping, but for every +1 exceeding the cap, you got an extra 2 dice of damage (same as if you're immune to stun) inflicted on your person.

On PaO, I just follow the same logic as Anthrowhale.

[Max Caysey]

Firstly, thank you for answering my question. I really appreciate it. I do have a few followup questions that might clear some of my still lingering confusion up!




Poly Any Object has explicit examples in its duration tables that are only even -possible- if the spell is allowed to ignore Polymorph's Type and HD restrictions. So this entire paragraph from Polymorph (and by extension the similar text in Alter Form)
Could you elaborate... Which example is it specifically?



Where it defines the restrictions on what something can be turned into, ignore it. POA don't care. Turn anything into anything, use the tables in POA to determine how long it lasts. Reserves of Strength does nothing to POA because the HD/CL restriction is part of the text we are discarding.
So, if I'm understanding you correctly you are saying that there is no CL limit determining a HD limit of the target form, thus making it possible to turn into a time dragon or prismatic dragon?



Based on the examples, PAO clearly doesn't have the "new HD <= old HD" limit. Whether it still has the 15 HD limit is unclear. It would be somewhat odd but not non-functional if it did.
So, what exactly do you mean? If I'm understading you correctly there is no upper limit to the HD of the target form, yet still might have a 15 HD limit? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?




PAO only has explicit exceptions w.r.t. polymorph. One of those eliminates target HD constraints, but nothing eliminates caster level constraints.

Given the above RoS does apply to PAO and allows you to transform into up to 18HD creatures.

So I again have to ask what it meant here? There is no limit, yet a limit, thus combining it with RoS makes it possible to polymorph into a HD 18 creature? How is that eliminating HD constraints?


So, thank you again for participating and answering my questions.

[Anthrowhale]

So I again have to ask what it meant here? There is no limit, yet a limit, thus combining it with RoS makes it possible to polymorph into a HD 18 creature? How is that eliminating HD constraints?

There are several limits given in polymorph.

The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can't have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can't cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

So, we have:

Target type restrictions
Assumed form HD <= caster level
Assumed form HD <= subject HD
size >= Fine
Not incorporeal or gaseous.

PAO eliminates (1) with:

Human to marionette
and eliminates (3) with:

Shrew to manticore
but otherwise leaves (2),(4), and (5) intact.

RoS operates on (2):

You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell with this feat.
So the caster level 15 limit can be pushed to caster level 18.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph also inherits Alter Self's restriction of 'within one size category,' but with the added restriction of 'no smaller than Fine.' People always seem to miss that.

Unless it's a really big shrew (or a really small manticore), I'm not sure that PAO inherits that. Then again, the entire line needs to be reworked so that they don't reference spells that reference spells that reference spells.

[Max Caysey]

Polymorph also inherits Alter Self's restriction of 'within one size category,' but with the added restriction of 'no smaller than Fine.' People always seem to miss that.

Unless it's a really big shrew (or a really small manticore), I'm not sure that PAO inherits that. Then again, the entire line needs to be reworked so that they don't reference spells that reference spells that reference spells.

So the question is, if some of the limiting rules of polymorph can be ignored - apparantly by design - what rules can then also be ignored? I assume that would be up to the interpretation of a DM. But one thing that I feel is weird is the low HD limit. Usually level 8 spells has a higher CL cap cap, and I find it wierd that that is apparantly not the case, if we are to believe PAO to have the same limitations as Polymorph despite it breaking some of polymorphs limitations...

[Anthrowhale]

So the question is, if some of the limiting rules of polymorph can be ignored - apparantly by design - what rules can then also be ignored?
My answer: exactly those you have been told by PAO to ignore.

[Quertus]

Then again, the entire line needs to be reworked so that they don't reference spells that reference spells that reference spells.

No, that’s… fine. In software design, it would be an example of “inheritance” (and DRY (Don’t Repeat Yourself)). It’s really nice to see such logic applied to common media. It’s also a good test of “can you follow logical consequences”; ie,



So the question is, if some of the limiting rules of polymorph can be ignored - apparantly by design - what rules can then also be ignored?


My answer: exactly those you have been told by PAO to ignore.


There are several limits given in polymorph.

So, we have:

Target type restrictions
Assumed form HD <= caster level
Assumed form HD <= subject HD
size >= Fine
Not incorporeal or gaseous.

PAO eliminates (1) with:

and eliminates (3) with:

but otherwise leaves (2),(4), and (5) intact.

RoS operates on (2):

So the caster level 15 limit can be pushed to caster level 18.

This exactly (if you (not unreasonably, but not as the exclusively reasonable interpretation of RAW) rule that Reserves of Strength is capped at breaking the level cap by +3).