Combat-only Phantom Steed: is it good?

[yisopo]

Without considering the out-of-combat use of Phantom Steed, do you think it is a good spell?

My understanding is that for the general consensus PS is not so good. An example from https://blackcitadelrpg.com/spells/phantom-steed-5e/:


As a 3rd-level spell, there are simply too many other choices that are more important for wizards (fireball!).

The only times one could use phantom steed is when they need to travel quickly or to use in mounted combat, and I can not think of a single reason why a wizard should be involved in mounted combat.

I'm a D&D beginner, so maybe I’m not considering some variables, but in combat PS is superb in my view. Here why:

1. I'm a wizard and the spell is a ritual, so I can cast it without using slots. Basically, I can start every combat with this spell active without spending resources (spell slots and spell prepared).
2. 100 feet of movement is great, 200 feet (when dashing) is huge! Very good for a tactical point of view: moving myself in the right place for attacking and/or defending is invaluable.
3. The horse can disengage instead of me; so I can avoid to use disengage/Misty Step in order to walk away from an adjacent enemy.
4. OK, the horse has only 1HP, but if an enemy wants to use their action in order to attack my horse instead of me, I would be more than happy!
5. What about blasting AoE spells? They are not so frequent and with a 100 feet of movement it is not so easy to be attacked with them. But even so, I may choose to use Silvery Barbs... But even without Silvery Barbs, if I can keep PS even only for 2/3 rounds, the advantages would be massive since combats last 3/4 rounds.
6. A small point, but still: if I expect not dashing/disengaging with my horse, the horse can dodge, giving themself a little more survivability (+5 AC).


I'm a level-3 wizard right now and I'm planning to take Hypnotic Pattern and Phantom Steed when I will level up to 5th. Counterspell and Slow at level 6. From an optimization point of view, is it wrong? Are there so many better 3-level spells that taking Phantom Steed is such a crazy move?

[Amnestic]

I'm a strong advocate of Phantom Steed on wizards (and tome-locks), both for in-and-out of combat usage, so long as the terrain is viable for mounted situations. Terrible spell if you're dungeon crawling down 5ft wide corridors and going up and down ladders constantly of course, but if your campaign spends even a moderate amount of time outdoors or in otherwise wide spaces it gives you excellent movement opportunities.

I would note that ritual casting (of any spell) costs your concentration*, so if you're concentrating on a spell with a decent duration (Eg. Summon [x] from Tasha's) then you can't ritual cast while doing so but otherwise yes, having a free 100ft speed mount for every outdoors combat is very good and even if you get only one turn of use will almost certainly be a net positive on your movement.

*PHB pg 202 - Longer Casting Times

[yisopo]

I'm a strong advocate of Phantom Steed on wizards (and tome-locks), both for in-and-out of combat usage, so long as the terrain is viable for mounted situations. Terrible spell if you're dungeon crawling down 5ft wide corridors and going up and down ladders constantly of course, but if your campaign spends even a moderate amount of time outdoors or in otherwise wide spaces it gives you excellent movement opportunities.

But even if you need to squeeze in some parts of the dungeon, you still have great manoeuvrability: "While squeezing through a space, a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there". In the extreme and rare case you have to squeeze all the combat in all the squares, you still have 50ft/100ft speed .


I would note that ritual casting (of any spell) costs your concentration*, so if you're concentrating on a spell with a decent duration (Eg. Summon [x] from Tasha's) then you can't ritual cast while doing so but otherwise yes, having a free 100ft speed mount for every outdoors combat is very good and even if you get only one turn of use will almost certainly be a net positive on your movement.
You are right. But this doesn't change the fact that basically I can start every combat with PS already in place.

[UnintensifiedFa]

But even if you need to squeeze in some parts of the dungeon, you still have great manoeuvrability: "While squeezing through a space, a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there". In the extreme and rare case you have to squeeze all the combat in all the squares, you still have 50ft/100ft speed.

Plus, keep in mind that a horse isn’t a 10x10 cube. A horse squeezing through a 5’ space at half speed doesn’t necessarily have to mean squeezing, just not galloping and bouncing up and down (to avoid ramming its poor rider into the ceiling) and maybe ducking its head a bit.

[Hael]

My understanding is that for the general consensus PS is not so good. An example from https://blackcitadelrpg.com/spells/phantom-steed-5e/:


I don't know who the general consensus is referring to, but Phantom Steed is objectively speaking, one of the best spells in the game if you take it RAW. I would nearly 100% of the time, take it over fireball, unless I already had some movement speed (like racial flight)

Think of it this way. Forget about the out of combat uses/overland use.

In combat, for the cost of exactly zero resources. You can give yourself and multiple members of your party, a significant movement edge in combat until they are hit. Others have mentioned how 'squeezing' isn't that big of a deal.

Do you not need the movement? That's fine, its still an extra dice roll between yourself and the enemy as well as what could be considered a mirror image (it goes poof instead of hurting you). Now there is a slight inconvenience in your movement speed the next turn as you have to dismount as it disappears (depending on how your DM rules it), but that's a small price to pay.

I consider it a staple of optimization, as the movement is particularly important in the first round of combat (where phantom steed is going to be mostly up assuming you have good initiative).

It's a premiere spell.

[Zirconia]

Just one comment to the OP, I would try to see if your DM will allow any way for you to get access to Ritual spells without having to take them at your level ups. Hunting for them in libraries, or buying scrolls to copy, or tracking down casters in cities. While Phantom Steed is pretty nice, I don't know if it beats out Hypnotic Pattern, for example, or Fireball for general use unless your DM gives you a lot of time between fights for ritual casting it.

[Tanarii]

If you have it as a Ritual and you have 11 minutes of warning before a combat and you're in an appropriate area for mounted combat and you'll be moving around a lot during the combat and the fragility compared to a barded warhorse is irrelevant (or you can't afford one), it's a great combat spell.

I don't know I'd take it over Fireball though. OTOH high damage AOEs were very useful IMC, encounters tended towards lots of enemies.

[Chronos]

One big question with ritual spells that you keep up continually, is what else can you do while casting? Can you keep doing whatever it is you do out of combat (moving, exploring, solving riddles, making perception checks, whatever) while you're constantly casting rituals? That's a DM call, I think, and depending on the answer might make this tactic much less useful.

[Segev]

I always want this spell to be good, but I have not yet actually tried taking it in a game, so I don't know if it's one that would be able to be up regularly in practice, nor how long it would practically last in combat.

The current game I'm in that might make use of it also has odd races, with only one bipedal Medium-sized humanoid. The others are a snake-tailed humanoid, a terra cotta owl that uses Owlin stats, and a Large beatstick. The Medium-sized bipedal humanoid is the only one likely to be able to ride it, and he's a barbarian. The extra movement would help him, certainly, assuming that he wasn't caught in an AoE by something he's face-to-face with.

[yisopo]

I don't know who the general consensus is referring to [...]
If you search with Google "best 3 level spells dnd 5e", virtually no article refers to Phanto. Steed.


[...] Phantom Steed is objectively speaking, one of the best spells in the game if you take it RAW. I would nearly 100% of the time, take it over fireball, unless I already had some movement speed (like racial flight)

Think of it this way. Forget about the out of combat uses/overland use.

In combat, for the cost of exactly zero resources. You can give yourself and multiple members of your party, a significant movement edge in combat until they are hit. Others have mentioned how 'squeezing' isn't that big of a deal.

Do you not need the movement? That's fine, its still an extra dice roll between yourself and the enemy as well as what could be considered a mirror image (it goes poof instead of hurting you). Now there is a slight inconvenience in your movement speed the next turn as you have to dismount as it disappears (depending on how your DM rules it), but that's a small price to pay.

I consider it a staple of optimization, as the movement is particularly important in the first round of combat (where phantom steed is going to be mostly up assuming you have good initiative).

It's a premiere spell.
I'm glad you confirm my impression and reasoning. I 100% agree with you.

And, by the way, I'm a 3-level Chronurgist (+Int to initiative), on the next level I will take Alert (+5 to initiative) and I have Gift of Alacrity (+ 1d8 to initiative). So I think I have a good initiative. :smallbiggrin:


Just one comment to the OP, I would try to see if your DM will allow any way for you to get access to Ritual spells without having to take them at your level ups. Hunting for them in libraries, or buying scrolls to copy, or tracking down casters in cities. While Phantom Steed is pretty nice, I don't know if it beats out Hypnotic Pattern, for example, or Fireball for general use unless your DM gives you a lot of time between fights for ritual casting it.

Taking spells in libraries/shops would be great. My DM is new and I haven't understand yet if this will be possible and how.

But, as I wrote in the opening post, I'm going to take Hypnotic Pattern and Phantom Steed at 5th (Counterspell and Slow at 6). Ok, I won't take Fireball but what's the point to have both Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball? :-) Anyway, for the reasons explained above, I think Phantom Steed is very very good, don't you agree?


If you have it as a Ritual and you have 11 minutes of warning before a combat and you're in an appropriate area for mounted combat and you'll be moving around a lot during the combat and the fragility compared to a barded warhorse is irrelevant (or you can't afford one), it's a great combat spell.
I don't need a warning before a combat, basically I can have the spell active almost always.


I don't know I'd take it over Fireball though. OTOH high damage AOEs were very useful IMC, encounters tended towards lots of enemies.
See my reply to Zirconia.


One big question with ritual spells that you keep up continually, is what else can you do while casting? Can you keep doing whatever it is you do out of combat (moving, exploring, solving riddles, making perception checks, whatever) while you're constantly casting rituals? That's a DM call, I think, and depending on the answer might make this tactic much less useful.
Good point, I will have to ask. Anyway, my DM is quite new and he is a RAW guy, so I'm not expecting nothing problematic. :-)


I always want this spell to be good, but I have not yet actually tried taking it in a game, so I don't know if it's one that would be able to be up regularly in practice, nor how long it would practically last in combat.

The current game I'm in that might make use of it also has odd races, with only one bipedal Medium-sized humanoid. The others are a snake-tailed humanoid, a terra cotta owl that uses Owlin stats, and a Large beatstick. The Medium-sized bipedal humanoid is the only one likely to be able to ride it, and he's a barbarian. The extra movement would help him, certainly, assuming that he wasn't caught in an AoE by something he's face-to-face with.
When I will be able to take and use it, I will let you know my experience. ;-)

[kingcheesepants]

But, as I wrote in the opening post, I'm going to take Hypnotic Pattern and Phantom Steed at 5th (Counterspell and Slow at 6). Ok, I won't take Fireball but what's the point to have both Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball? :-) Anyway, for the reasons explained above, I think Phantom Steed is very very good, don't you agree?



I use Phantom Steed in and out of combat, it's a great spell, being able to move 100 ft do your thing and then back 100 ft with the steed's dash makes hit and run tactics and kiting just about trivial in any environment with the space. Wizards have low HP and generally not that great of armor (unless multiclassed) and you'll often be concentrating on something important, so it's particularly important to not get hit. Phantom Steed does that for you more effectively than just about anything else including favorites like Shield. I looked at that link where the guy mentions that wizards shouldn't be doing mounted combat but his reasoning isn't really explained at all and I can't help but feel he's thinking of mounts as a way to get into the action quicker rather than as a way to avoid the enemy. Also you can have several, give one to the melee characters so they don't waste a turn dashing to the enemy.

As for your spell selection though I wouldn't bother with both Slow and Hypnotic Pattern, the overlap is pretty heavy. 3rd level concentration, Wis save, AoE, control. Take one or the other but not both. Lots of people are suggesting Fireball, which of course is good because you can use it on a group of enemies and give them one of the most useful conditions (dead) and it doesn't use up your concentration. But if you don't want to be a blaster there are other good options that don't have so much overlap, any of the summons (Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, or one of the Tasha's summons), Major Image, Tiny Hut, Fly, Sleet Storm.

But also you're a wizard, encourage the DM to give you more spells by telling him that you're using your downtime to look for scrolls/libraries/other wizards so that you can expand your spellbook. If you don't have downtime ask your DM for downtime. You might not be able to get all the spells you want but you should be able to get some.

[Tanarii]

I don't need a warning before a combat, basically I can have the spell active almost always.

If you get an permissive DM that lets you do something besides take a 11 min break every hour. While you're checking on if the DM will let you ritual cast while exploring (at the minimum) might also want to check about how frequent wandering monster checks are, as well as the range at which V components can be heard and how that will impact the stealth game. Because you may need to ask the party if they're okay with a few things based on the answers to all that.

[Martin Greywolf]

Huh, it's almost like there's a reason why every soldier in recorded history wanted to be on horseback before machineguns were a thing.

That said, be wary of quick and easy counters - or possibly inform your DM of them if they complain about this being too OP.


caltrops - on failed save drops speed to zero for that round and offs your steed in a minute, or reduces speed to half if you notice it and go slow
ball bearings - similar to caltrops, you fall prone instead of take damage (usable only on hard ground, which is why they weren't used historically, unlike caltrops)
pits - can come with or without spikes, I'd say they count as difficult terrain for humanoids, often impassable for horses
barricades - furniture or otherwise, melee on horses can't get into reach, ranged characters have to shoot into cover while sitting on horses
no cover - on foot, you can go prone or hide behind an overturned table to get cover bonuses, on horseback, not so much (granted, this only affects you if you use these tactics in the first place)
fire - it is a riding horse, and arguably behaves like the animal would, fire and smoke will spook it
shoot the horse first - it's a world with magic, people in it are likely to know what those transparent horses are and how to kill them


That said, all of these work just as well on horses (except caltrops, actual horses can take 1 piercing damage without getting destroyed) and those don't have a speed of 100. As a ritual, it's a pretty good spell, as a prepared spell, it can still be very good in certain situations.

[Amnestic]

shoot the horse first - it's a world with magic, people in it are likely to know what those transparent horses are and how to kill them



Just a note on this, I would say it's distinctly possible a phantom steed simply looks like a normal horse if you want it to - the spell says you choose the appearance, after all. You could also make it look like some sort of demonic/draconic monstrosity with flaming eyes and obsidian horns and hellfire red fur/scales...as long as it's still horse-like. I don't believe they are transparent, as standard, until they start fading due to taking damage.

Whether the appearance you choose makes it more or likely to get shot (if it changes the target choice at all) is probably dependent on who you're facing.

[yisopo]

I use Phantom Steed in and out of combat, it's a great spell, being able to move 100 ft do your thing and then back 100 ft with the steed's dash makes hit and run tactics and kiting just about trivial in any environment with the space. Wizards have low HP and generally not that great of armor (unless multiclassed) and you'll often be concentrating on something important, so it's particularly important to not get hit. Phantom Steed does that for you more effectively than just about anything else including favorites like Shield. I looked at that link where the guy mentions that wizards shouldn't be doing mounted combat but his reasoning isn't really explained at all and I can't help but feel he's thinking of mounts as a way to get into the action quicker rather than as a way to avoid the enemy. Also you can have several, give one to the melee characters so they don't waste a turn dashing to the enemy.
We are on the same wavelength! When I analysed this spell I immediately thought that it is wonderful and I was shocked when I saw the community was so tepid, to say the least. (Even Treantmonk don't like this spell so much.)


As for your spell selection though I wouldn't bother with both Slow and Hypnotic Pattern, the overlap is pretty heavy. 3rd level concentration, Wis save, AoE, control. Take one or the other but not both. Lots of people are suggesting Fireball, which of course is good because you can use it on a group of enemies and give them one of the most useful conditions (dead) and it doesn't use up your concentration. But if you don't want to be a blaster there are other good options that don't have so much overlap, any of the summons (Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, or one of the Tasha's summons), Major Image, Tiny Hut, Fly, Sleet Storm.
My idea is using Hypnotic Pattern when I can avoid to hit the rest of the party; otherwise, using Slow (since it outo-avoids friendly fire). Don't you think this is a good choice?
Nevertheless, I have to admit I'm tempted to take Summon Shadowspawn or Summon Undead instead of Slow.


But also you're a wizard, encourage the DM to give you more spells by telling him that you're using your downtime to look for scrolls/libraries/other wizards so that you can expand your spellbook. If you don't have downtime ask your DM for downtime. You might not be able to get all the spells you want but you should be able to get some.
I certainly will try. Thanks. ;-)


If you get an permissive DM that lets you do something besides take a 11 min break every hour. While you're checking on if the DM will let you ritual cast while exploring (at the minimum) might also want to check about how frequent wandering monster checks are, as well as the range at which V components can be heard and how that will impact the stealth game. Because you may need to ask the party if they're okay with a few things based on the answers to all that.
Why taking a break every 11 min? What rules do you referring to?


That said, be wary of quick and easy counters - or possibly inform your DM of them if they complain about this being too OP. [...]
Thanks. ;-)

[Person_Man]

Action Advantage (doing more things per round - or denying your enemy the ability to do things) is generally the most efficient form of optimization. So summons/animate/find spells are typically the most powerful in the game. Not only can they add extra damage, but they can soak attacks from other enemies. And since its a ritual that doesn’t require concentration, it should always be on.

Honestly, when I think about a Bard with Find Familiar, Find Greater Steed, Phantom Steed, Animate Dead, etc., it brings back bad memories from the worst parts of 3.5.

[yisopo]

Action Advantage (doing more things per round - or denying your enemy the ability to do things) is generally the most efficient form of optimization. So summons/animate/find spells are typically the most powerful in the game. Not only can they add extra damage, but they can soak attacks from other enemies. And since its a ritual that doesn’t require concentration, it should always be on.

Honestly, when I think about a Bard with Find Familiar, Find Greater Steed, Phantom Steed, Animate Dead, etc., it brings back bad memories from the worst parts of 3.5.
Phantom Steed: from oblivion to game-breaking! :smallbiggrin:

[Mellack]

Also remember that ritual casting does take concertation, so you can't get the mounts if you want to hold concentration on any other spell.

[Chronos]

One good reason not to take Fireball as one of your spells on level-up is that eventually, sooner or later, you're going to find a spellbook in loot, and every looted spellbook you ever find will contain Fireball. So you might as well take something else instead.

[yisopo]

Also remember that ritual casting does take concertation, so you can't get the mounts if you want to hold concentration on any other spell.
Do you have something specific in mind? I think this is a very niche case.


One good reason not to take Fireball as one of your spells on level-up is that eventually, sooner or later, you're going to find a spellbook in loot, and every looted spellbook you ever find will contain Fireball. So you might as well take something else instead.
Good point! :-)

[Chronos]

All-day spells don't usually take concentration (aside from a warlock's Hex, but I don't think warlocks get Phantom Steed), but it's still relevant for hour-long spells like most summons. It's not uncommon to summon something in one combat, and then to keep it around until the next combat, and your phantom steed might well end sometime in that window.

[Tanarii]

Why taking a break every 11 min? What rules do you referring to?
To ritual cast the spell again. 1 min casting time plus 10 minutes to cast as a ritual.

[Mellack]

Do you have something specific in mind? I think this is a very niche case.




Just anytime you have another spell that you want to keep concentration on. Things such as a summon, alter self, polymorph, enhance ability, fog cloud, etc.

[yisopo]

All-day spells don't usually take concentration (aside from a warlock's Hex, but I don't think warlocks get Phantom Steed), but it's still relevant for hour-long spells like most summons. It's not uncommon to summon something in one combat, and then to keep it around until the next combat, and your phantom steed might well end sometime in that window.
Right, I need to consider the concentration issue for the summon spells. So I think it is better to take something else, at least at this low-level game.



Why taking a break every 11 min? What rules do you referring to?To ritual cast the spell again. 1 min casting time plus 10 minutes to cast as a ritual.
I need 11 min of casting time every 60 min. No, casting a spell every 11 min. Anyway, I was not able to find any rules forbidding this strategy.


Just anytime you have another spell that you want to keep concentration on. Things such as a summon, alter self, polymorph, enhance ability, fog cloud, etc.
Yes, I can easily avoid alter self, enhance ability and fog could... but the problem is with summoning spells and polymorph. As said to Chronos, I can avoid taking summoning spell, but Polymorph is too good...

[Amnestic]

I need 11 min of casting time every 60 min. No, casting a spell every 11 min. Anyway, I was not able to find any rules forbidding this strategy.

Do note that you can have more than one phantom steed - they're only limited by casting time and duration, so a party of five characters can be entirely mounted if the caster spends all their out of combat time ritual casting Phantom Steed - 1 hour duration, 11 minute ritual cast time.

Casting it just for yourself is the minimum, but getting to give mounts to your other casters/archers is quite nice too.

[Person_Man]

Also remember that ritual casting does take concertation, so you can't get the mounts if you want to hold concentration on any other spell.

Thats true. But I think that just means you have to end your Summon Whatever for 1 hour spell if you want to bring back a dead Phantom Steed (or just continue adventuring until it runs out). Though Find Familiar, Find Steed, and Animate Dead don’t require Concentration. With Animate Dead in particular, you can stockpile as many as many as you can fit (tied up needed) in your bag of holding or demiplane or portable hole, and then dump them out when needed.