Making a debuffer in a mid-optimized campaign starting level 5, planning to level 12

[Lazarock]

Hello, it's me again.

Do you remember me ? I came a week ago asking for advices for a ranged build running on soulknife in a mid-optimized campaign, Oh, silly me

For reminder :

I'm making a new character in 3.5 in a campaign where we can't make PC with a class from Tiers 1 & 2 (2019 edition). Tier 3 are heavily suggested, Tiers 5 and after get a little buff.

Ability array : 8,10,12,12,14,18

We're all starting at level 5. 10k gold.

Out of the 4 PC of our campaign, 2 of them are melee characters, the third one will be making a ranger. One of the melee characters is a good optimizer, the second one a bit less but they're like Chip & Dale so no doubt they will complement well. The ranger is new to D&D 3.5, but still looking to be useful.

And here I am !

I'm bad at optimizing characters, always playing the same 4 class (Binder, Dragonfire adept, Dragon shaman, Dread Necromancer), and this time our DM said to us "this campaign will be deadly, you'll have to twist rules a bit". (I don't want to talk about this statement, I already said what I think of it to our DM)


Let's go back to my character :

Combat oriented, I'd like to be a blaster/debuffer (emphasize on the last one), we'll have our charger/buffer (crusader), our main martial DPS (warblade), our main magical DPS (our ranger is going to make an elemental one, ngl I don't know how viable it is) and... me.

So hey, I was looking at the tier list and saw this one, the "warlock". It catches my eye and I took a liking to its versality.

But when it comes to out of combat roles, there isn't so much room left for me, the "face" will be taken by our Crusader, the "scout" will be taken by our Ranger. So I'm looking for a "skillmonkey" and guess what ? Warlock aren't fit for it.

Yay !

I like challenges.

I read I think about every handbook written for Warlock, saw some nice build (stormsinger warlock looked fun but doesn't seem to be debuff oriented), and thought of this one :

Human, no flaw allowed

Bard 1 / Warlock 4

Planning to go Stormsinger at 6 and so on.

BUT

While stormsinger is very thematic (and fun, I admit I'll play it in another campaign, nothing is wasted) and I love it, i'll have to wait until level 10 to be able to gain any bonus from the Storm Magic feat (+1 CL when on a storm), which is a prerequisite for the PrC. A bit sad, knowing that campaign will end at ECL 12. And there is also a huge skill prerequisite that makes me shiver.

What will I get between 6 et 10 ?

If I spend 4000g at creation, I could take a cask of cold to get +2 to CL and to perform checks starting at ECL 7, but how can I justify it ? At ECL 5, I would only be a warlock/bard, no real need to take this magic item.

But beside it... I can make wind making my ranger friend at disavantage at ECL 6 ; thunderstrike is NEAT, but doesn't help debuff (ECL 8) ; electricity resistance, so situational that there is nothing to write about (ECL 9).

Sure, I get some skills, but if I'm just a dead weight with the party when fights kick in... meh.

--------------------------------------------

It's been like, 4 days since I started thinking about what to play.

First title was "making a warlock [...]", then "making a warlock/debuffer [...]" and then the one you can see there.

I tried to make things works with warlock, but I feel like I'll be redundant with my mates. I mean, with 2 melee fighter, adding a glaivelock ? What's the point of it ? Sure I could apply debuff to eldritch glaive, but that's it. Adding a clawlock ? Even worse.

Playing a pure rangelock ? I can't make it combat-viable. I tried, I swear, but when I hit 6th level, I feel like warlock loose steam for 4-5 levels.

That's a bit sad because, this is where most of our campaign will take place.

I could take a level of binder and get out of here ASAP to take Hellfire PrC, but it would be only focusing on damaging people... And I love versality and out of combat usefulness.

Where I am, now, is at some cross-road : I could either jump out the warlock-train, or push a bit more with a somehow bastard warlock/heartfire fanner for out of combat usefulness (a dip in bard helps), or jumping on another train (like a binder, because I know how it works and it could fill any hole in the party ; or something like that).

I'd really like to play a debuffer, but online handbook nearly always point toward sorcerer/wizard for caster build, which are banned in my case.

Here are some builds I made, which I think could help me achieve what I want to do :

The " Sher'Lock "

Warlock 5 into Urban Savant

I need to talk to my DM to twist rules a bit, making it a more flexible PrC, but could add to the party by being the skillmonkey.

Also add a familiar that could help in combat while I shot fire from backline.


The "I'll-make-it-looks-like-I-didn't-know-what-my-mates-will-do"

Glaivelock 5 then Escalation mage

I'm now a melee warlock and when I hit you you better have a good saves.

Still need to lose one turn to move close to enemies, I can already hear them :

"Say the phrase, Warlock !"

*Sigh* Fine. I launch an Eldritch Blast.

"Yeaaaaaah".

Could make a dip in warmage or warblade, for fluff and manoeuvers.


The "B4 Fill & Fix" :

Human Binder 4/Bard 1 into chameleon, giving access to fear spells and versatility to the extreme."You wanted it ? Now you got it"

Could be fun, but I don't feel like I'll love this character. It give me a "jack of all trade, master of none" feeling.


The "Bind me more" :

Cheesy Kobold Binder 5 to the extreme.

Versatile and comfy, good base for an everyday build. Maxing "face" role, using vestiges to take a bit of "scout" role (crow vision, find magical traps), our archer will take the other part.

Allow me to take two path : full caster (via ur-priest, anima mage...) or go help melee with KoSS and aura of despair. Dandalion could also open Scion of Dandalion PrC, a bit like an exhibitionist, but can scare friends more than foes.


"Edgar A.P., the Bard"

Bard 4 / Dread Witch X

Do you see this nasty fear-immune ? There will be none soon enough. Now listen to my voice, my deep voice.

Buffer/debuffer slot, needs to make a thematic storyline and appropriate spell selection.

Could be completed with a nightmare spinner or dirgesinger later on.

What I want to do is scare the **** out of the ennemy, but still having knowledge skills to back me up.


The "**** this, I'm out"

Last one, because I'm tired of making circles with myself. I know what I want to play, but don't know how to do it well.

Warlock 2 / Binder 2 / Duskblade 1

Get on board the Ur-Priest rollercoaster !

After 2 levels, I take Eldritch Disciple and Wow ! I'm now far past the border of what is logically banned from our DM... but not RAW.

I have no doubt he should never allow it, but hey, who knows.

TL;DR :
I want to play a debuffer in a group of 2 melee characters (a warblade and a crusader) and 1 ranged character (ranger), in a deadly campaign.
I'm bad at optimizing and am running in circle with concepts, but I read a lot of things and am open to everything, as long as I can see some fun in it.


I'm not bound to any race or class, but still banned from using some (Tiers 1 & 2).
No PrC limitation - it's free real estate !
Everything 3.5 related and somehow official allowed (so Dragon Magazine are OK)
Bloodlines allowed, but can be nerfed if too powerful
Archetypes not allowed by default... but if I do it well, DM could allow it
No "exotic" race, like monstruous rockbeetle, mantis or so


Do you have some insight, or perhaps better builds to share ? Or more complete ones ?

[pabelfly]

If you want a lot of skills, the ability to debuff opponents, and something out of left field, Truenamer isn't a bad option. You can optimize this pretty hard since you won't worry about outshining the other players. You'd also be able to argue for the buff you mention, since it's barely in Tier 5. I'd probably ask for a bonus to Truespeak or a reduction to the Truespeak DC, it will be much handier than it first appears, especially when you start quickening your utterances at level 9.

Skills: you're an INT-based caster with 4 + INT skill points per level. You're going to have a lot of skill points. You'll probably pump your Knowledge skills for Paragnostic Assembly bonuses so you'll end up being the party knowledge bank. If you want to branch away from that, you can find ways to add class skills through feats, races, etc, but you may delay your +10 Truespeak bonus from the Paragnostic Assembly by a level or two.

Debuffing: The Mortalbane feat will let your debuffs also damage your enemy (and you can combo this with Knowledge Devotion). A lot of your debuffs don't allow the opponent a save either. When debuffing isn't helpful, you can buff allies or do some offensive utterances, which isn't too bad within most of that level range with the Mortalbane feat, Knowledge Devotion and using concentrate to extend your utterances over two turns. Quicken at level 9 will let you debuff twice a turn, providing you can reach the ridiculous DC for it.

One other upside for Truenamer is that you'll be able to use your best utterances a lot more often than your favourite spells.

I will note that the Law of Sequence means you can only do a specific debuff on one specific opponent at a time though.

I could do a level breakdown for levels 5-12 if you were interested.

[Lazarock]

If you want a lot of skills, the ability to debuff opponents, and something out of left field, Truenamer isn't a bad option. You can optimize this pretty hard since you won't worry about outshining the other players. You'd also be able to argue for the buff you mention, since it's barely in Tier 5. I'd probably ask for a bonus to Truespeak or a reduction to the Truespeak DC, it will be much handier than it first appears, especially when you start quickening your utterances at level 9.

Skills: you're an INT-based caster with 4 + INT skill points per level. You're going to have a lot of skill points. You'll probably pump your Knowledge skills for Paragnostic Assembly bonuses so you'll end up being the party knowledge bank. If you want to branch away from that, you can find ways to add class skills through feats, races, etc, but you may delay your +10 Truespeak bonus from the Paragnostic Assembly by a level or two.

Debuffing: The Mortalbane feat will let your debuffs also damage your enemy (and you can combo this with Knowledge Devotion). A lot of your debuffs don't allow the opponent a save either. When debuffing isn't helpful, you can buff allies or do some offensive utterances, which isn't too bad within most of that level range with the Mortalbane feat, Knowledge Devotion and using concentrate to extend your utterances over two turns. Quicken at level 9 will let you debuff twice a turn, providing you can reach the ridiculous DC for it.

One other upside for Truenamer is that you'll be able to use your best utterances a lot more often than your favourite spells.

I will note that the Law of Sequence means you can only do a specific debuff on one specific opponent at a time though.

I could do a level breakdown for levels 5-12 if you were interested.

I'm, of course, interested !
Being a knowledge bank AND debuff without save, where do you want me to sign ?

I'll talk to my DM about changes on DC and so. When he made limitations, he said that tier 5 could get a bonus feat or a +2 on one ability, but changed his point of view recently.
If I ask only for a change in DC or a small bonus, he should accept it.

[pabelfly]

I'm, of course, interested !
Being a knowledge bank AND debuff without save, where do you want me to sign ?

I'll talk to my DM about changes on DC and so. When he made limitations, he said that tier 5 could get a bonus feat or a +2 on one ability, but changed his point of view recently.
If I ask only for a change in DC or a small bonus, he should accept it.

Race: Human. Build Stub: Truenamer 12

Feats
1: Skill Focus: Truespeak
H: Mortalbane
3: Item Familiar OR Knowledge Devotion
Skill Trick: Collector of Stories
6: Knowledge Devotion OR Extend Utterance
9: Quicken Utterance
12: ?

Level 3, you have the option of taking the Item Familiar feat. It grants you more skill points but you're crippled if you lose your item. I don't typically take it, but you get extra skill points to pump Truespeak beyond the normal stat cap. Your choice. If you don't take it, make Knowledge Devotion your third-level feat (I'd recommend Knowledge Devotion).
Level 6, Extend Utterance, if you don't need Knowledge Devotion, lets you extend your utterances for an increase in utterance DC. It goes well with things that would normally last for one round. For example, Inertia Surge and Temporal Twist, combined with Extend Utterance, both let you trade one of your utterances so your opponent is crippled for two of their turns.

If you can get flaw feats, or need to take the bonus feat, Illumian is worth considering, since you can get a +2 to all your INT checks (Truespeak and all your Knowledge checks) and DEX (initiative). Getting one skill point less per turn means you'll get Paragnostic Assembly bonus at 10th instead of 9th level though.

Your main sources of Truespeak bonuses (getting all of this would be really helpful)

Skill Focus, INT stat - we took Skill Focus at first level. Your main stat to boost is INT, especially at 4th and 8th level.
Amulet of Truespeak - easiest RAW way of boosting your Truespeak
Paragnostic Assembly - you should start with easily qualifying at rank 1 and getting a +5 to Truespeak. You should barely reach fourth rank and get a +10 at 9th level, and you'll really want it then, when Quicken boosts your DC by 20 but you can cast twice a turn if you manage it. You'll definitely be able to manage to quicken several times a day before level 12 though.
Custom Competence Item - you'll have to discuss this with your DM but if your DM plays ball, you can stack it with the Amulet. Also helps that you can get past the +10 the amulet is capped at
Item Familiar - you get extra skill points from your investment, with the downside that you're permanently crippled if you lose your item or it gets broken. You can work fine without it, and that's what I'd suggest, but it's a potent option if you like to gamble.


Utterance List
Lexicon of Evolving Mind
1st: Inertia Surge, Universal Aptitude
2nd: Hidden Truth, Temporal Twist, Word of Nurturing, Lesser
3rd: Greater Speed of Zephyr, Temporal Spiral, Seek the Sky, Energy Negation
4th: Spell Rebirth, Magic Contraction, Potent Word of Nurturing

Lexicon of Crafted Utterance
Fortify Armor, Analyse Item, Rebuild Item

Lexicon of Perfected Map
Fog from the Void, Speak Rock to Mud

As always, Zaq's handbook is very handy: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers

[Maat Mons]

I’m not really a Warlock guy but… does Scout 1 / Warlock 4 / Unseen Seer X have any appeal?

A bit of a departure from anything you’ve mentioned, but maybe Shugenja 5 / Sand Shaper X? Nevermind, I'm dumb.

[Lazarock]

I’m not really a Warlock guy but… does Scout 1 / Warlock 4 / Unseen Seer X have any appeal?

A bit of a departure from anything you’ve mentioned, but maybe Shugenja 5 / Sand Shaper X? Nevermind, I'm dumb.

No need to be a warlock, it was just me too focused on this class, nothing more !

And how can you be numb when you're trying to help ? Nah, don't want to believe it.
You're all awesome.

[MultitudeMan]

"Edgar A.P., the Bard"

Bard 4 / Dread Witch X

Do you see this nasty fear-immune ? There will be none soon enough. Now listen to my voice, my deep voice.

Buffer/debuffer slot, needs to make a thematic storyline and appropriate spell selection.

Could be completed with a nightmare spinner or dirgesinger later on.

What I want to do is scare the **** out of the ennemy, but still having knowledge skills to back me up.




This reminded me of one of my favourite builds ever (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631326-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Fear-and-Loathing-in-Celestia&p=25042394). Lots of BFC and debuffs, and I can't see your DM complaining about Arcane Archer, though you may have to ask about Sublime Chord, or amend the build after level 11, if the campaign goes that far.

[Particle_Man]

Not sure what tier your DM would place it at, but maybe Adept/Hexer if the DM would put it at tier 5 and give you the buff for doing so (depends on the buff, I guess). Your spell list has a few blasts (lightning bolt, burning hands) and a few debuffs, and later you get hexes. Goblins are nice for 30' move and darkvision.

For tier 3, Beguiller might be an option. Lots of skills, and many of the enchantment spells can act as debuffs (plus the spells that cause fatigue/exhaustion).

[Anthrowhale]

Is the Unseelie Fey template available?

Maybe: Unseelie Fey[Winter's Chill] Magic-Blooded Human Trickster Spellthief

Charisma is your primary stat with Dex a secondary stat. As a Trickster Spellthief you get spell access to 5 wizard schools as well as bard spells

You debuff options are:
1) Move within 5' of an enemy to allow Winter's Chill to reduce saves by your cha bonus for all non-fey. Simultaneously you setup a flank for your allies.
2) Steal spells, Energy Resistance, spell effects, spell-like abilities, and spell-resistance as class abilities.
3) Your choice of debuff spells which can be cast spontaneously.

In terms of feats, something like:
Human: Craven // you deal nonnegligible damage
1) Combat Reflexes //A prereq, but also good for smacking things. Remember, you can steal things when combat reflexes activates.
3) Vexing Flanker //Flank effect doubles.
6) Adaptable Flanker //Flank is easy
9) Staggering Strike //sneak attack to stagger
12) ??