Nightscale armor seems pretty good?

[danielxcutter]

I was looking at mundane armor types and I found this in the Underdark sourcebook.

+2 AC and a max Dex bonus of +10, with only 5% ACF and no Exotic proficiency actually seems real nice? It's a strict upgrade to padded armor for one, and if you can get around the ACF somehow it's even better than thistledown. High level rogues or rangers or whatnot don't even have to worry about that, either.

Sure your AC might be better with Bracers of Armor et al. but this still actually seems pretty decent.

[Malphegor]

I thought you did beed exotic armour proficiency for it? I need to reread that when I’m back at my books

[danielxcutter]

Surprisingly, no. In the table, spidersilk armor is listed as exotic, but nightscale and chitine web aren't. Heck, it's even lighter than thistledown.

[Particle_Man]

Usually the penalty for not having armor proficiency is a penalty on attack rolls and str/dex ability checks and skill checks. Since the ACF is 0, it seems the point is moot except for some edge case where armor proficiency in that armor is needed as a prerequisite for something.

That said, the text seems to describe it as an exotic armor.

[Anthrowhale]

For a high Dex character, you end up with AC equivalent to the standard Mithril Chain + Dastana + Chahar-Aina + more moderate Dex, but you benefit from a higher touch AC. However, I believe you can also do Thistledown padded + Mithril Dastana + Chahar-Aina for slightly more AC?

In the SRD, you also have Celestial Chainmail (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) at +5 base armor +8 dex and (epic)Celestial battalion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/armor.htm#armoroftheCelestialBattalion) at +5 base armor +10 dex.

[danielxcutter]

Usually the penalty for not having armor proficiency is a penalty on attack rolls and str/dex ability checks and skill checks. Since the ACF is 0, it seems the point is moot except for some edge case where armor proficiency in that armor is needed as a prerequisite for something.

That said, the text seems to describe it as an exotic armor.

Honestly, the wording really sounds like that means an exotic type of armor rather than the armor requiring the Exotic Armor Proficiency feat.


For a high Dex character, you end up with AC equivalent to the standard Mithril Chain + Dastana + Chahar-Aina + more moderate Dex, but you benefit from a higher touch AC. However, I believe you can also do Thistledown padded + Mithril Dastana + Chahar-Aina for slightly more AC?

In the SRD, you also have Celestial Chainmail (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) at +5 base armor +8 dex and (epic)Celestial battalion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/armor.htm#armoroftheCelestialBattalion) at +5 base armor +10 dex.

Well the Armor of the Celestial Battalion being epic automatically locks it out of 99.99999% games and most theorycrafting as well, so that's moot. Celestial Chainmail's great though.

Also the rules for dastana and chahar-aina are weird. I'm not entirely sure if you can enchant them and get additional armor/shield bonuses that way...? And there's nothing to suggest that if they work with thistledown padding they can't work for nightscale armor, no?

[AvatarVecna]

Honestly, the wording really sounds like that means an exotic type of armor rather than the armor requiring the Exotic Armor Proficiency feat.

The wording of the fluff is also kinda irrelevant. If it doesn't say "this requires the Exotic Armor Proficiency feat", and it's not listed in a table with the "Exotic Armors" heading (the way such tables have in books like Races Of Stone), then it's not Exotic ArmorTM, it's just armor that is in-universe kinda exotic.

[Anthrowhale]

Also the rules for dastana and chahar-aina are weird. I'm not entirely sure if you can enchant them and get additional armor/shield bonuses that way...?

Dragon Magazine #318 page 42 says that enhancement bonuses on these do not stack but they can each be enchanted with different specials.


And there's nothing to suggest that if they work with thistledown padding they can't work for nightscale armor, no?
My understanding is that thistledown padding _is_ padded armor which happens to be made out of thistledown. Nightscale armor is "much like leather armor, except that it is much more supple and formfitting" but perhaps not technically leather armor. Of course, DM mileage may vary.

Incidentally, Shadowsilk Padded (Tome of Magic, page 156) is much like thistledown padded. Shadowsilk Leather+Mithril Dastana+Chahar-Aina provides AC+4/max dex+8, for another competitor point.

And at the very high end, you have Gnomish Twist Cloth with no dex maximum at all.


The wording of the fluff is also kinda irrelevant. If it doesn't say "this requires the Exotic Armor Proficiency feat", and it's not listed in a table with the "Exotic Armors" heading (the way such tables have in books like Races Of Stone), then it's not Exotic ArmorTM, it's just armor that is in-universe kinda exotic.
Armor proficiency also doesn't seem particularly relevant since you have a 0 penalty to use when nonproficient.

[danielxcutter]

Nightscale still seems pretty good nevertheless.

[Anthrowhale]

Nightscale still seems pretty good nevertheless.
Yup, agreed.

[Troacctid]

The window where your Dex is high enough to want nightscale armor but also not high enough to want bondleaf wrap...I mean, it's a small window, but it certainly exists.

[Zanos]

The issue with super high dexterity armor in general is that by the time your dex is high enough to take advantage, you can usually buy something that emulates a spell or power that gives more AC.

[AvatarVecna]

The issue with super high dexterity armor in general is that by the time your dex is high enough to take advantage, you can usually buy something that emulates a spell or power that gives more AC.

The extra cushion on your max dex isn't the only reason to take this armor. 5% ASF and -0 ACP is practically perfect, and it's only 1000 gp. It's a little cheaper than a Mithril Chain Shirt, and trades 2 points of AC for 4 points of max Dex and 10% ASF in comparison to MCS. +500 gp and you can knock off the remaining 5%. 1500 gp for +2 AC that doesn't require armor proficiency, doesn't interfere with spellcasting, and effectively doesn't have a max dex, in a single slot. That's 2500 gp cheaper than bracers of armor.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I mean, if you are rocking a whopping +10 DEX mod, you can probably afford a wand of Mage Armor, even a high CL one.

[danielxcutter]

Sure, but there's always armor enchantments to consider. And it's a strict upgrade to leather armor aside the cost.

[Zanos]

The extra cushion on your max dex isn't the only reason to take this armor. 5% ASF and -0 ACP is practically perfect, and it's only 1000 gp. It's a little cheaper than a Mithril Chain Shirt
Well yeah, but a mithral chain shirt is better for most characters because it gives 4 base AC instead of 2. And can be raised to 6 with addons. Nightscale is only good if you actually are making use of the dexterity capacity, which probably isn't happening until your levels are double digits even if dexterity is your main stat. If you evaluate armor purely on ac + max dex then nightscale is decent, but it's only going to be valuable to a small minority of characters who find themselves with the dex to make use of the super high max dex but not any more than that since then they're better off without it.


and trades 2 points of AC for 4 points of max Dex and 10% ASF in comparison to MCS. +500 gp and you can knock off the remaining 5%. 1500 gp for +2 AC that doesn't require armor proficiency, doesn't interfere with spellcasting, and effectively doesn't have a max dex, in a single slot.
Or you could spend 1000gp on a pearl of power and cast mage armor? Or buy a mithral chainshirt with caster armor and githcraft for a similar price and 2-4 more AC depending on what addons you can mitigate? Or cast Greater Mage Armor if you're okay with eating the slot cost? Or a wand of greater mage armor which costs less and has 50 uses?


That's 2500 gp cheaper than bracers of armor.
Not really what you want to compare to, since bracers aren't very good.


Sure, but there's always armor enchantments to consider. And it's a strict upgrade to leather armor aside the cost.
If you want a base for enchantments you just use clothing or gnome twistcloth.

[danielxcutter]

I'm fairly sure you can't use normal clothes for that.

Also, you get a high Dex armor without looking like you're wearing a winter jacket. That's got to mean something. :smalltongue:

[Malphegor]

I think whenever I’ve used nightscale it’s usually when I want a formfitting bodysuit for a superhero character based build. Usually with a signature crest for their chest emblem

[animewatcha]

Well yeah, but a mithral chain shirt is better for most characters because it gives 4 base AC instead of 2. And can be raised to 6 with addons.

I know that Reinforced would account for one of those 2 added-on. What accounts for the other 1 base ac added-on if it isn't max dex increase?

[Remuko]

I know that Reinforced would account for one of those 2 added-on. What accounts for the other 1 base ac added-on if it isn't max dex increase?

Dastana + Chahar-Aina. each adds +1. i dont think reinforced was considered.