Interesting (if maybe suboptimal) weapons?

[danielxcutter]

Oh you know, in terms of optimization they aren't great... but you've always wanted to try using it, or if it's decent enough for you to trade some optimality for the sake of style points, or if they actually aren't nearly as bad as they say but nobody seems to notice them? That stuff.

Here's what I've got.


Flutter Knife: From Underdark. In mechanical terms, it's an exotic dagger that needs a move action to change between piercing and slashing, but has 19-20/x3 crit range. Yes, you're reading that correctly. Assuming no bonus damage dice or other factors, a x2 crit range is effectively a x1.05 multiplier to average damage, a 15-20/x2 is x1.3. If you put a Keen effect or take Improved Critical(Flutter Knife) the effective damage multiplier of the resulting 17-20/x3 is x1.4. It might not be quite worth the feat, especially with things like kaotri resin, but it should be usable with Disciple of Dispater for example... I'd take it over any of the gazillion "normal weapon except you also get a negligible bonus to disarming or something" exotic weapons in a heartbeat, at least.

Spikard: From Magic of Eberron. Spear spikards are basically shortspears with mounted crossbows that fire point blank if you get a hit, adding piercing damage equal to the weapon's base damage(that isn't multiplied by a crit, sadly), and can be used as shortspears for weapon feats and stuff. War spikards are two-handed hammers which do more or less the same, though they don't have a counterpart weapon for weapon feats. Reloading the bolts is a free action if you have Rapid Reload(light crossbow) of all things, but still provokes an AoO. Weird, probably hard to optimize even with a lenient DM... but conceptually neat. They're basically pile bunkers, why wouldn't they be?

Talenta sharrash: When people talk about Talenta halflings, they usually think of the boomerangs(which is understandable, as Talenta halflings are not actually better at physical combat mechanic-wise). The sharrash however... well, it's kind of a reach weapon version of a scythe(which itself actually isn't that bad, honestly). Except the crit range/multiplier is 19-20/x4. Sure, the Talenta halflings might be bad at using these, but this seems like a weapon that would legitimately be worth taking EWP to build around for a Medium or larger tripper build. Seriously, 19-20/x4 without crit boosting. Pelor on a full English breakfast.

Zulaat: Aside from quarterstaffs(for Eilservs School) and Valenar double scimitars(for Revenant Blade), double weapons are... kinda meh. In the context of double weapons in general though, the Zulaat actually is one of the better ones in terms of pure damage - 2d4/2d4, x3 crit multiplier. 2d4 is actually a bit better than 1d8, which means at least they're better than orc double axes or two-bladed swords. Unless of course your DM gives orcs the former as martial weapons.

Anyone with their own contributions? Really, there are plenty of weapons that might be very suboptimal, but most aren't so suboptimal as to actually ruin a build, and to be honest most of the time the better options aren't complete upgrades. And the higher level you are and the more flat damage bonuses you stack, crit bonuses usually matter way more than base weapon damage short of size-increases or whatever. So there's that.

[Saintheart]

Anyone with their own contributions? Really, there are plenty of weapons that might be very suboptimal, but most aren't so suboptimal as to actually ruin a build, and to be honest most of the time the better options aren't complete upgrades. And the higher level you are and the more flat damage bonuses you stack, crit bonuses usually matter way more than base weapon damage short of size-increases or whatever. So there's that.

Stop by my Critical Hit handbook in my sig, it's got literally dozens of eyebrow-raisers in this sphere. Me, I'm surprised we don't see more keen, kaorti resin Jovars. 2d6, 15-20/x4 threat range isn't anything to sniff at.

But my personal favourite of 'always wanted to try, probably not optimal' is the Longaxe from Complete Adventurer: so long as you use Power Attack at a -3, it functions as a Reach weapon.


Oh, and the Talenta Sharrash got nerfed in its errata: the /x4 was cut to /x2, which left it more or less on par with many polearms.

[danielxcutter]

Stop by my Critical Hit handbook in my sig, it's got literally dozens of eyebrow-raisers in this sphere. Me, I'm surprised we don't see more keen, kaorti resin Jovars. 2d6, 15-20/x4 threat range isn't anything to sniff at.

Well, it utilizes not one but two less popular sourcebooks, you need to burn two feats, and kaotri resin isn't exactly a thing where the only concern obtaining it is money.

Also, personally I suspect most people don't really... feel the need to go that far, I guess? Y'know, with decently optimized bruisers easily breaking triple digit damage before critting and such.


But my personal favourite of 'always wanted to try, probably not optimal' is the Longaxe from Complete Adventurer: so long as you use Power Attack at a -3, it functions as a Reach weapon.

I can't believe I forgot that, but yeah that one always sounded cool. Do you have to use it as a reach weapon if you Power Attack that much?


Oh, and the Talenta Sharrash got nerfed in its errata: the /x4 was cut to /x2, which left it more or less on par with many polearms.

I am both unsurprised and incredibly disappointed by this news.

[Saintheart]

I can't believe I forgot that, but yeah that one always sounded cool. Do you have to use it as a reach weapon if you Power Attack that much?

No, but in support of WOTC's endless pogrom against those who would dare to threaten adjacent opponents with a Reach weapon, you have to make the choice whether it's a Reach weapon round by round at the same time as your Power Attack penalty selection.

[danielxcutter]

No, but in support of WOTC's endless pogrom against those who would dare to threaten adjacent opponents with a Reach weapon, you have to make the choice whether it's a Reach weapon round by round at the same time as your Power Attack penalty selection.

Weird, but not ruinous. Besides, spiked chains look stupid.

[Condé]

The Sugliin is pretty interesting. It comes from one of the most broken book there is, which is Frostburn.
It is a reach weapon, dealing 2d8 damage. Medium size.
Yeah, you read that right... 2d8 damage. Incredible right?

There is a bemol tho... You need a full round action to attack with it. And can't make iterative with it, except with a feat.
At low level it can be pretty interesting. Or as a Hideous Blow Warlock (But who does that?) or something like that.

But as you get higher level, it becomes less and less useful/interesting.

But still, a very unique weapon.

[danielxcutter]

The Sugliin is pretty interesting. It comes from one of the most broken book there is, which is Frostburn.
It is a reach weapon, dealing 2d8 damage. Medium size.
Yeah, you read that right... 2d8 damage. Incredible right?

There is a bemol tho... You need a full round action to attack with it. And can't make iterative with it, except with a feat.
At low level it can be pretty interesting. Or as a Hideous Blow Warlock (But who does that?) or something like that.

But as you get higher level, it becomes less and less useful/interesting.

But still, a very unique weapon.

Isn't there a feat that lets you get iteratives with it?

Also the most broken book is Serpent Kingdom, no contest. I'm not even just talking about Pun-Pun.

[Maat Mons]

If you think the fluff of spiked chains is dumb, you might be interested in the emmide (Holy Order of Stars, p31). Mechanically, it’s pretty much a spiked chain. But the fluff is that it’s just a martial arts staff that you use the way martial arts staffs are used in real life. It’s not sub-optimal though.

Some less optimal weapons that can be used in place of a spiked chain are duom (Arms and Equipment Guide, p6), hellspear (Fiendish Codex II, p129), and spinning sword (Secrets of Sarlona, p136).

[Saintheart]

The Sugliin is pretty interesting. It comes from one of the most broken book there is, which is Frostburn.
It is a reach weapon, dealing 2d8 damage. Medium size.
Yeah, you read that right... 2d8 damage. Incredible right?

There is a bemol tho... You need a full round action to attack with it. And can't make iterative with it, except with a feat.
At low level it can be pretty interesting. Or as a Hideous Blow Warlock (But who does that?) or something like that.

But as you get higher level, it becomes less and less useful/interesting.

But still, a very unique weapon.



For Thri-Kreen or Obah-Blessed, there's the Scissors Sword (SavSpec) that does 2d8, but also has a specific rider effect on a critical hit: a proficient wielder can choose to grapple the opponent with two of the blades at a +2 to the grapple check. If the grapple is successful, the wielder can automatically deal 1d8 damage against the grappled opponent each round. That said, the damn thing is normally a Marilith weapon and explicitly needs six arms to use it. Exotic Weapon, but benefits from iteratives easily.

Dragon Magazine #352 has the Greatcleaver. Medium weapon, 2d8 damage dice and a x3 critical multiplier, exotic. But even better, it's explicitly said to have a '10 foot Reach' ... but is not named as a Reach weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Four of my favorites that few people ever really consider are the unarmed strike (specifically the monk's), the MMIII's sand blaster, the Arms & Equipment Guide's gnome calculus, and the Dragon Compendium's poison ring. None of them are particularly impressive at base, but their optimization ceilings are crazy good, especially the monk's unarmed strike.

[Particle_Man]

I have a soft spot for the flails, especially the dire flail. They are silly, there are better weapons that do what they do, and the flails probably were not historically accurate, but there is something about using a stick to swing a spiked ball on a chain at an opponent that says "Dangerous!" to me.

[pabelfly]

I like the Elven Courtblade. It's one of the few two-handed weapons that's both finessable and can have the benefit of Power Attack. I also love the 18-20x2 crit spread for Kaorti Resin weapon shenanigans.

[Troacctid]

Garrotes (from Song & Silence) offer some really nifty options for grapplers, allowing you to do extra damage on grapple checks or even make your grapple self-maintaining with a locked garrote. I think they're highly underrated. Scorpion claws (Sandstorm) are good for grappling too.

Frostburn has several interesting weapons. The tiger club is a tripping weapon that offers a rare bonus to the trip attempt itself. The ritiik can initiate a trip for free when you hit with it. The harpoon can impale people for a debuff. The glot can make ranged trip attacks and is also very cheap.

Races of the Wild has a couple more. Halfling skiprocks are nice as thrown weapons. They can hit two adjacent creatures in a single throw, potentially doubling your effective attacks in a round, and, like shurikens, they're treated like ammunition, so you can enchant them cheaply and you don't need Quick Draw to throw a bunch of them in a turn. Footbows are a rare bow that lets you add 1.5x Strength to damage, which is really nice, and foot spikes allow you to make two attacks at the end of a diving charge instead of one. You need to fly in order to use weapons with your feet, but whatever, you want to be flying anyway, right?

There are several weapons that initiate a grapple on a hit, including the mancatcher, sharktooth staff, entangling pole, and pincer staff. Adding that element of control to your melee build can be a lot of fun.

The greatcleaver is a sugliin, but without the drawback. 2d8 damage polearm. Very nasty. The dwarven warpike is another good polearm that's "only" 2d6 damage, but it can trip.

The lasso (BoED) targets touch to entangle a target. Because it's super cheap and touch AC is so much lower than regular AC, you can just buy one on any character, eat the -4 nonproficiency penalty, and still have a good backup option. Nets can do this too, of course.

The gythka (XPH) is an obscure double weapon notable for its 1d10/1d10 damage, essentially allowing you to TWF with dual bastard swords.

[Metastachydium]

There are several weapons that initiate a grapple on a hit, including the mancatcher, sharktooth staff, entangling pole, and pincer staff. Adding that element of control to your melee build can be a lot of fun.

And let's not forget the truly idiotic thing that is the snap-tongFC1; it grapples opponents automatically dealing 1d10+STR piercing damage/round and it's apparently one-handed to boot. (The other rutterkin weapon, the tri-blade also deserves a mention; it's basically a slinglike thrown weapon dealing 2d4+STR slashing damage.)

[H_H_F_F]

Gotta love CW's Mancatcher. Grapple at reach is fun.

As a DM, I have a long fascination with the longstaff. I can't really justify it, but it's there.

[Condé]

You also have the Orc Shotput, from Sword and Fist, which is, I believe, the highest damage you can get from a thrown weapon. It is 2d6 and you also have 19/20x3 for your crits. The range increment is pretty bad, only 10ft and it weights 15lb a piece but you are basically throwing a two-handed sword and we all know how the two-handed sword is praised as a weapon.

[ShurikVch]

The Sugliin is pretty interesting. It comes from one of the most broken book there is, which is Frostburn.
It is a reach weapon, dealing 2d8 damage. Medium size.
Yeah, you read that right... 2d8 damage. Incredible right?

There is a bemol tho... You need a full round action to attack with it. And can't make iterative with it, except with a feat.
Questions:
Can it be used for ToB maneuvers?
And can Zombie use it? (If no - then what about Fast Zombie?)



Garrotes (from Song & Silence) offer some really nifty options for grapplers, allowing you to do extra damage on grapple checks or even make your grapple self-maintaining with a locked garrote. I think they're highly underrated.
Note: the "Strangulation" article (Dragon #355) changed rules for Garrotes: instead inflicting damage - they're causing suffocation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#suffocation)

[pabelfly]

Questions:
Can it be used for ToB maneuvers?
And can Zombie use it? (If no - then what about Fast Zombie?)

I would say... if the ToB manoeuver requires a full-round attack to work.
Alternatively, if you have EWP: Sugliin and the Sugliin Master feats you could use it as a regular weapon and with any manoeuver, although I'm not sure that's a great use of feats.

[Saintheart]

hellspear (Fiendish Codex II, p129)

Interestingly, the orthron (to whom that weapon is unique) has Improved Critical in the hellspear, but doesn't have an increased threat range - it should be 2d6, 19-20/x3 with the hellspear.

And since it's an exotic weapon, then the orthron must have an invisible capability to treat it as a martial weapon, same way the Sharrash or the Tangat works for Talenta halflings. It doesn't have EWP.

In fact, the orthron as written shouldn't have Improved Critical unless as a BonusB feat. Leaving aside the requirement of proficiency with the weapon, Improved Critical requires BAB +8. The orthron's BAB is only +7. The orthron's got outsider HD, the problem is that it only has 7 of them. Advancing it by 1 HD resolves that problem, of course, and doesn't change the CR...

[Anthrowhale]

Let me second the poison ring (dragon compendium). It does a mere 1 damage, but as a touch attack. That's something like a +25 to hit vs. average CR 20 monsters. Also, it's a simple light weapon so very usable.

Greater mighty wallop implies that bludgeoning weapons dominate in damage. Given that, you have things like:
Light Mace (PHB): 4d6 light simple

Executioner's Mace (Dungeon 135 page 61): 8d6 x3 bludgeoning & piercing or bludgeoning & slashing (your choice) two-handed martial.
Lucerne Hammer (Dragon Mag 331): 6d6 x4 reach two-handed martial
Sap (BoED): 4d6 Nonlethal light martial

Tigerskull club (Frostburn): 6d6 x4 Bludgeoning & Piercing Trip/Disarm+2 one-handed exotic
Maul (complete warrior): 6d8 x3 one-handed exotic
Dire Flail: 6d6/6d6 double weapon. Eligible for Dire Flail Smash (hit with both ends => Fort save or daze) two-handed exotic
Pincer Staff (Underdark): 6d6 Reach grapple

Sun Scepter (LEoF): 8d6 +Axiomatic Disruption Flaming Burst with a touch attack. This is a spell which "acts as a physical weapon", in particular apparently as a one-handed mace.

Magic of Faerun also offers heavy weapons (d8s become 2d6) which makes the Heavy Maul (12d6 x3) the most damaging weapon in the game(*). In addition, there is Duskwood which makes normally-steel weapons eligible for Brambles providing a +10 enhancement bonus to damage, 5 more than the normal +5 max.

(*) This is the RAW, but it's 3.0 and matches advancement by size in 3.0. RAI may be that it advances by size, in which case the Maul is merely the max base damage one-handed weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The poison ring is a FANTASTIC weapon for TWF sneak attackers, as well as a poison delivery device, and (if you can swing it) a delivery method for both Iaijutsu Focus and the factotum's +Int to damage. Grabbing various means of adding stat mods (and Power Attack) to damage would make it halfway decent, as well.

[Condé]

Questions:
Can it be used for ToB maneuvers?
And can Zombie use it? (If no - then what about Fast Zombie?)

I don't think so because it says in the Sugliin description that you need a Full round ACTION (Not a full round ATTACK). So I might be tempted to say no.

BUT

It works by RAW with Hideous Blow, which is funny since it allow anyone to use the weapon asa standard action without having to take the appropriate feat.
So I guess if you are using maneuvers with similar text, it might work.

Quick search: Obscuring Shadow Veil read:

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack...

So I guess it can be used with a Sugliin.

[Anthrowhale]

The poison ring is a FANTASTIC weapon for TWF sneak attackers, as well as a poison delivery device, and (if you can swing it) a delivery method for both Iaijutsu Focus and the factotum's +Int to damage. Grabbing various means of adding stat mods (and Power Attack) to damage would make it halfway decent, as well.

Yep. Even leaving aside damage, I've been curious about steal {Spell, SLA, Resistance, Supernatural} + MWF which could be hilarious for certain normally fearsome foes. And another approach is Staggering Strike riding on Bloodstorm Blade 2's Thunderous Throw to create a staggered enemy zone in a 50' radius.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yep. Even leaving aside damage, I've been curious about steal {Spell, SLA, Resistance, Supernatural} + MWF which could be hilarious for certain normally fearsome foes. And another approach is Staggering Strike riding on Bloodstorm Blade 2's Thunderous Throw to create a staggered enemy zone in a 50' radius.Poison rings are also, y'know, rings, and they can be enhanced as both rings and weapons. Which means that combining the two can lead to some interesting results. For instance, did you know that the A&EG has something called the ringsword, which allows you to gain another ring slot by attaching a magic ring to the weapon? That means that a +1 ringsword poison ring can have its own ring and weapon enhancements while giving you the benefits of another ring. And if that one is also a ringsword poison ring, that would allow you to wear yet another ring, which could also be a ringsword poison ring...

And each iterative ring could have different weapon AND ring effects, allowing you to add things like spellsword enhancements, the effects of a ring of invisibility, a ring of evasion, a ring of telekinesis, etc...

[Cygnia]

The lajatang from Oriental Adventures holds a soft spot for me.

[Epic Legand]

Rope dart/meteor hammer is an awesome and interesting weapon. Even with only a D4 damage it seams worth it. That 15' reach allows for so many options not available to other weapons. Its in Dragon 319 I believe.

[loky1109]

I like Fukimi-bari from Arms and Equipment Guide very much!

[Alhallor]

For me it's the Chakram, a 1d4 thrown weapon but it can be thrown 30 feet!

There is also the Chakrem Ricochet feat which let it work like the halfling skiprock essentially.

[Maat Mons]

Fight like a Warrior Princess.

[danielxcutter]

Oh right, I found the Lynxpaw. That one's odd but interesting.

It's a double weapon that's basically a weighted metal claw attached to a rapier on the end of a chain. The damage is effectively the same as using a rapier and a handaxe, though you can use the chain end to trip and get a disarm bonus as many chain weapons do. However, the main takeaway from this is that it's a double weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Normally you can't cast spells while TWFing because of the somatic components. The lynxpaw being a double weapon means you don't have to drop it or store it in a Glove of Storing et al, and there's nothing stopping you from using it as a two-handed weapon regardless. While using it as a finesse weapon.

Sure it looks kinda dumb, but let's be real. The historical inaccuracies and unrealistic weapons would make actual weapon experts weep already. This isn't even the worst.(I mean seriously, I'm pretty sure weapons don't weigh that much!)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh right, I found the Lynxpaw. That one's odd but interesting. -snip-

Sure it looks kinda dumb, but let's be real. The historical inaccuracies and unrealistic weapons would make actual weapon experts weep already. This isn't even the worst.(I mean seriously, I'm pretty sure weapons don't weigh that much!)
Stage weapons can, but real weapons have thinner blades—both because that's important on the battlefield and because stage weapons aren't supposed to be sharp.

But yeah, I can definitely imagine lynxpaws that are more reasonable chain weapons than the typical fantasy flail. Dunno what kind is depicted in the actual art, but hey.



Poison rings are also, y'know, rings, and they can be enhanced as both rings and weapons. Which means that combining the two can lead to some interesting results. For instance, did you know that the A&EG has something called the ringsword, which allows you to gain another ring slot by attaching a magic ring to the weapon? That means that a +1 ringsword poison ring can have its own ring and weapon enhancements while giving you the benefits of another ring. And if that one is also a ringsword poison ring, that would allow you to wear yet another ring, which could also be a ringsword poison ring...

And each iterative ring could have different weapon AND ring effects, allowing you to add things like spellsword enhancements, the effects of a ring of invisibility, a ring of evasion, a ring of telekinesis, etc...
Yo dawg, I heard you liked late-oughts Internet memes, so I put a ringsword on your ringsword so you can attack while you attack.

Also on the note of rings: Apparently it deals its one damage as a touch attack, which is interestingly unusual on its own.

For the ringsword: The ringsword appears to be not a generic weapon enhancement but a Specific Magic Weapon. We can reverse-engineer it to probably be a +4,000 gp enhancement (about 4.5 times as expensive as a hand of the mage, without any telekinetic capabilities, but also slotless)...but by RAW we can't stick it on just any weapon, and while you could probably convince your DM to let you stick it on a +4 longbow or a +2 shocking battleaxe instead of a +3 longsword, getting it on a ring would probably raise some eyebrows.

For the combination: "[T]he wielder gains the benefit of the ring held on its hilt," which is obviously intended to mean "you get the magic bonus the magic ring gives you," I don't think there's a RAW argument that "being able to attack" isn't a benefit of a poison ring held on the hilt of a ringsword. If your DM lets you get away with a bunch of ringblade rings, you can probably argue that you get to attack with all of them. You just need Multiweapon Fighting...and possibly Dodge, to avoid the rulebooks your fellow players will throw at you.

[Fizban]

The Dart Thruster (Underdark) is essentially a martial repeating hand crossbow that explicitly "holds up to three darts at one time," but since it's not a crossbow and lacks any notes regarding number of hands and only weights 1lb, it might actually be what people want a repeating hand crossbow to be: a gun they can fire multiple times with one hand. Even without the reduced proficiency that would be great, as long as the DM doesn't look to closely at how you're apparently priming three firing mechanisms and loading the darts all in a single move action (where repeating crossbows of course take a full round and require two hands for every shot), with a base price of only 40gp.

But the three dart limit makes it kinda terrible even if it does work the way you want. Unless you can get a ruling that the load action is just putting in the darts and then use an extradimensional Quick Loading- but then it can't possibly be truly one-handed since you have to be priming the springs somehow.

At first glance it looks like the true answer to the gunslinger's problem, then falls apart just as quickly once examined, and even if all that is ignored you end up with. . . 1d4 base damage at a range increment of 40'. A "gun and sword" build could have just thrown something, an actual gun user would be supported by better gun rules/gunslinger features, and TWF is basically inferior to Rapid Shot anyway since paying more feats for lower attacks on a character who is probably supposed to be "accurate" doesn't make sense.

[danielxcutter]

Stage weapons can, but real weapons have thinner blades—both because that's important on the battlefield and because stage weapons aren't supposed to be sharp.

But yeah, I can definitely imagine lynxpaws that are more reasonable chain weapons than the typical fantasy flail. Dunno what kind is depicted in the actual art, but hey.

I was thinking of the “canonical” depiction of the spiked chain actually. Chain weapons are arguably silly by default, but the way the spiked chain tends to be drawn makes it look like a double weapon, and not a two-handed reach weapon.

[Anthrowhale]

There's a few weapons which give extra attacks.

The crescent knife in Dragon #275 allows attacking twice per attack. Light 1d3 exotic slashing weapon. Good for sneak attack.
The braid blade in Dungeon #120 allows an extra attack per full attack. Light 1d3 exotic slashing weapon, 18-20/x2 crit. Also good for sneak attack.
The Manyfang dagger in Serpent Kingdom hits 4 times quadrupling damage by default (and quintupling on a critical hit). The base damage (1d4+1)x4 is low, but with a strength of 40 and a Greater Magic Weapon for a +5 enhancement bonus, it does ~90 damage per attack that hits. It's spendy at 32K.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly you don't need 40 Str to get more than your money's worth out of the Manyfang Dagger. CL 20 GMW alone makes the damage of the weapon itself 30 or so, and that's without paying to add things like Collision on top of it.