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View Full Version : Is Anyone Excited for "Everyday Heroes" (D20 Modern for 5e?)



Tevo77777
2022-09-26, 03:12 AM
Well? Anyone?

This place seems crawling with diehard D20 Modern fans, and I imagine with 5e being so popular, simple... This new attempt at D20 Modern, but inside 5e... It could be popular enough, get new people to do D20 modern'ish stuff.

I personally won't be playing it, because I have my own system and my players/me think it does all the stuff we like pretty well.

https://www.evilgeniusgames.com/free-stuff

Some of the classes seem better written/balanced?

Eldan
2022-09-26, 05:14 AM
Wait, d20 modern had fans? Has fans?

Brookshw
2022-09-26, 07:11 PM
Wait, d20 modern had fans? Has fans?

Shame Future never really caught on, always liked that one.

Tevo77777
2022-09-26, 08:51 PM
When I searched "XCOM RPG" all I found was people doing play by post or in person games, using the D20 Modern system. There have been a decent number of D20 Modern games for various settings on this forum and others.

I didn't find anyone playing GURPS or whatever.

Caledfwlch
2022-09-26, 10:08 PM
I didn't find anyone playing GURPS or whatever.

That’s because we do so very quietly ;^)

Psyren
2022-09-27, 11:44 AM
I'd be leery about publishing names like Johnny Blaze and Leticia Wright if I were them >_>

The "classes" are interesting but a little vague. I'm guessing this is a zero-magic world?

Luccan
2022-09-27, 03:48 PM
I like both d20 Modern and 5e and I'm not sure why, but this doesn't excite me.

My initial thoughts: 18 classes? That's a lot for the starter books of a new game. D&D itself has only gotten up to 12. While I can't speak for everyone's experience, to me D20 Modern is an active mishmash of genres, heavy with Urban Fantasy and sprinkled with a little surveilance state menace (Department 7 is ostensibly the good guys, but come on). And this looks more like they want you to pick a genre and are leaning more towards WatchDogs

Also, I'm on the same page as Psyren with the names, this quick start material reads like they're trying to get sued.

Tevo77777
2022-09-27, 04:18 PM
I like both d20 Modern and 5e and I'm not sure why, but this doesn't excite me.

My initial thoughts: 18 classes? That's a lot for the starter books of a new game. D&D itself has only gotten up to 12. While I can't speak for everyone's experience, to me D20 Modern is an active mishmash of genres, heavy with Urban Fantasy and sprinkled with a little surveilance state menace (Department 7 is ostensibly the good guys, but come on). And this looks more like they want you to pick a genre and are leaning more towards WatchDogs

Also, I'm on the same page as Psyren with the names, this quick start material reads like they're trying to get sued.

I'm pretty sure the Core D20 book had 18 classes, with 12 being advanced.

animorte
2022-09-27, 05:03 PM
Also, I'm on the same page as Psyren with the names, this quick start material reads like they're trying to get sued.

This is like anything my best friend writes. He just can not help himself. I don’t understand the need to make the references so direct. At that point it’s not even a reference anymore.

Tevo77777
2022-09-27, 05:19 PM
This is like anything my best friend writes. He just can not help himself. I don’t understand the need to make the references so direct. At that point it’s not even a reference anymore.

They're contracting out like six licenses, but I don't recognize the references in order to know if they fit.

Luccan
2022-09-27, 05:21 PM
I'm pretty sure the Core D20 book had 18 classes, with 12 being advanced.

Sure, but those are advanced classes. You won't touch them until you have a much better idea of the game. From the information I have (mostly the quick start) we're talking 18 base classes. Which makes sense; this is based on 5e and 5e doesn't have prestige classes. But assuming the classes are actually classes in the way a Fighter is a class for 5e, that's a lot to decide from.

Alternatively, their version of class is actually subclass/archetype, which is needlessly confusing because that would mean what they call archetypes (Smart Hero, Strong Hero, Etc.) are the actual classes. Which would fit an update way more, IMO, but then that makes the language needlessly confusing for everyone, 5e and D20 Modern fans alike.

But regardless, in the original d20 modern you chose 1 of 6 classes at first level and it was relatively straightforward. This does not look like that at first glance. I'll reserve judgement until i get a better idea of what the game is actually like, but I am not filled with confidence that this is turning out as straightforward as "Pick a stat, that's the main thing you do for now"


They're contracting out like six licenses, but I don't recognize the references in order to know if they fit.

Jonny Blaze is one of the identities of Ghost Rider

Letitia Wright is an actor

Tevo77777
2022-09-27, 05:33 PM
Sure, but those are advanced classes. You won't touch them until you have a much better idea of the game. From the information I have (mostly the quick start) we're talking 18 base classes. Which makes sense; this is based on 5e and 5e doesn't have prestige classes. But assuming the classes are actually classes in the way a Fighter is a class for 5e, that's a lot to decide from.

Alternatively, their version of class is actually subclass/archetype, which is needlessly confusing because that would mean what they call archetypes (Smart Hero, Strong Hero, Etc.) are the actual classes. Which would fit an update way more, IMO, but then that makes the language needlessly confusing for everyone, 5e and D20 Modern fans alike.

But regardless, in the original d20 modern you chose 1 of 6 classes at first level and it was relatively straightforward. This does not look like that at first glance. I'll reserve judgement until i get a better idea of what the game is actually like, but I am not filled with confidence that this is turning out as straightforward as "Pick a stat, that's the main thing you do for now"



Jonny Blaze is one of the identities of Ghost Rider

Letitia Wright is an actor

The quick-guide says
"The full version of Everyday Heroes includes 6 base classes and more than 16 classes. Base classes: Strong, Agile, Tough, Smart, Wise, and Charming form a foundation, while classes such as Bodyguard, Marksman, Hacker, Fencer, Martial Artist, and many more give a character their specialization. For the Quickstart, we have combined four base classes and classes together:"

This just sounds like classes and advanced classes. Bodyguard and MA were Advanced classes in D20 Modern.

Anonymouswizard
2022-09-27, 06:00 PM
I'm pretty sure the Core D20 book had 18 classes, with 12 being advanced.

I'd argue that Advanced Classes are closer to 5e subclasses. So if I was trying to translate d20 Modern into 5e mechanics you might be a Fast Hero (Gunslinger) or Smart Hero (Mage). I'd also probably fold Tough Heroes into Strong Heroes to give five classes.

But yeah, I'm just not excited to play modern games with 5e. If I want a modern setting I have Modern AGE, Chronicles of Darkness, and Trinity Continuum, all of which cater to my tastes more.

animorte
2022-09-27, 06:27 PM
Base classes: Strong, Agile, Tough, Smart, Wise, and Charming form a foundation

Looks to me like: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma

The classes following are just subclasses of each primary ability score, likely incorporating others.

Luccan
2022-09-27, 07:37 PM
The quick-guide says
"The full version of Everyday Heroes includes 6 base classes and more than 16 classes. Base classes: Strong, Agile, Tough, Smart, Wise, and Charming form a foundation, while classes such as Bodyguard, Marksman, Hacker, Fencer, Martial Artist, and many more give a character their specialization. For the Quickstart, we have combined four base classes and classes together:"

This just sounds like classes and advanced classes. Bodyguard and MA were Advanced classes in D20 Modern.

The clarification helps, but I think that's still a bad use of terminology. Base class to advanced class seems a lot clearer, but that's fair enough

OTOH, I think making a 5e based system with, essentially, prestige classes added back in is a terrible idea

Mutazoia
2022-09-27, 09:04 PM
The clarification helps, but I think that's still a bad use of terminology. Base class to advanced class seems a lot clearer, but that's fair enough

OTOH, I think making a 5e based system with, essentially, prestige classes added back in is a terrible idea

I got in on the playtest, it's not as bad as you're thinking.

Tevo77777
2022-09-27, 11:10 PM
Looks to me like: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma

The classes following are just subclasses of each primary ability score, likely incorporating others.

Well yeah, that's how D20 Modern worked. A lot of the Advanced classes were easy to compare to D&D classes.

EDIT:

Does anyone here have any mechanical critiques of Everyday Heroes or D20 Modern?

Gnoman
2022-09-28, 05:03 AM
Does anyone here have any mechanical critiques of Everyday Heroes or D20 Modern?

There's a lot of aspects of D20 Modern that fundamentally don't work by RAW. This can be fixed via houserule (and I suspect that a lot of people who like the system do so without realizing it, because there's aspects of the RAW that make no sense), but that's not great. It also suffers badly by trying to essentially maintain compatibility with 3.5e D&D. yet doesn't really fulfill that goal either. There's good stuff in the system, but as a whole it is really lacking.

Leon
2022-09-28, 05:20 AM
Hard to get excited for anything 5e since they consistently water everything down

Anonymouswizard
2022-09-28, 06:45 AM
I got in on the playtest, it's not as bad as you're thinking.

How do they deal with wealth? I remember d20 Modern having one of the worst abstracted wealth systems I've seen.


Hard to get excited for anything 5e since they consistently water everything down

Who knows, maybe this'll give 5e a skill system.

animorte
2022-09-28, 09:03 AM
Who knows, maybe this'll give 5e a skill system.

As long as they don’t take us back to 3.5 skills… please!

Alcore
2022-09-28, 09:16 AM
Nope!


I enjoy d20 and 3.5 and I appreciate what they tried to do with 5e. I, however, remember that they are The Wizards of the Coast. They have gone political from what I heard from multiple scources. Due to site rules i cannot speak anymore on that but I can say that once they remember that they are a company that makes money i might deem them worthy of my money once more.

Anonymouswizard
2022-09-28, 09:20 AM
As long as they don’t take us back to 3.5 skills… please!

3.5 skills were significantly better than how 5e does it.

Singing, dancing, oration, clowning, juggling, fire eating, walking on hot coals, miming, and tightrope walking are, RAW, all one proficiency u Der 5e rules.

RAW it also takes two proficiencies to play the kazoo and the vuvuzela.

animorte
2022-09-28, 10:10 AM
3.5 skills were significantly better than how 5e does it.

I may grant you that the 3.5 skills themselves are better but distributing skill points (half-points etc.) is garbage.

Anonymouswizard
2022-09-28, 10:17 AM
I may grant you that the 3.5 skills themselves are better but distributing skill points (half-points etc.) is garbage.

And yet it's what most games I own do.

Like 5e's skills and tools are this weird hodgepodge kludge where some things can be ridiculously precise

Like 3.5 skills have their issues, but the need to distribute skill points isn't one.

God I wish 5e would simplify it's Ability Score system, distributing attribute points is rubbish.

animorte
2022-09-28, 10:25 AM
And yet it's what most games I own do.

Like 5e's skills and tools are this weird hodgepodge kludge where some things can be ridiculously precise

Like 3.5 skills have their issues, but the need to distribute skill points isn't one.

God I wish 5e would simplify it's Ability Score system, distributing attribute points is rubbish.

Ha, you have a solid point. One of the consistent issues with 5e is that they lost some common sense along the way with attempting to simplify everything.

I enjoyed mapping out the math for skills, but not everybody has the time for that. 5e skill proficiency is much better, but they simplified out some unnecessary things.

But other things got better for it. Feat chains and skill point allocation are two changes I personally appreciate.

Tevo77777
2022-09-28, 11:00 PM
How do they deal with wealth? I remember d20 Modern having one of the worst abstracted wealth systems I've seen.

Who knows, maybe this'll give 5e a skill system.

Cogent had a good solution, in that if your wealth was like a 15 and an item was like a 10, you could just get it for free because "It's like pocket change to you".

Everyday Heroes has an even simpler system, which I'm not quite a fan of.

I liked how Cogent/CoC 5th E do things, where some things require you to max out credit cards and roll dice, while others require no effort.


3.5 skills were significantly better than how 5e does it.

Singing, dancing, oration, clowning, juggling, fire eating, walking on hot coals, miming, and tightrope walking are, RAW, all one proficiency u Der 5e rules.

RAW it also takes two proficiencies to play the kazoo and the vuvuzela.

To anyone who got into all of this after 3.5 E, that sounds terrible. I'm really a fan of Pathfinder 2e and that takes like 4-6 hours to make a level 3 Paladin Half-Elf character. It was like half that in 5e, and would likely take like... 7-9 hours in 3.5 D&D.

Having "class skills" and "basic attack bonus" was the bane of my existence. It's literally why I started writing my own RPG system instead of just using D20 Modern.


And yet it's what most games I own do.

Like 5e's skills and tools are this weird hodgepodge kludge where some things can be ridiculously precise

Like 3.5 skills have their issues, but the need to distribute skill points isn't one.

God I wish 5e would simplify it's Ability Score system, distributing attribute points is rubbish.

What are you talking about?

Mutazoia
2022-09-28, 11:01 PM
How do they deal with wealth? I remember d20 Modern having one of the worst abstracted wealth systems I've seen.

The playtest rules didn't cover wealth much. There's a short blurb in the playtest rules but is a basic "here are the levels of wealth from 0-6." (yeah...abstracted.) The playtests were built more around "build X types of characters and then do Y scenario to see if it works okay." We weren't really buying and selling things for the play test.

Tevo77777
2022-09-28, 11:10 PM
The playtest rules didn't cover wealth much. There's a short blurb in the playtest rules but is a basic "here are the levels of wealth from 0-6." (yeah...abstracted.) The playtests were built more around "build X types of characters and then do Y scenario to see if it works okay." We weren't really buying and selling things for the play test.

One of the things that sucked about D20 Modern, is your wealth was like a +3 and you could roll as high as 23, but if you bought anything that was valued at a 3 or 4... You faced the odds of your wealth bonus decreasing.

Which was honestly really dumb. When you convert prices over, it was like being able to buy things, possibly, that cost 5,000 dollars, but you struggled to buy something worth 20 dollars.

Anonymouswizard
2022-09-29, 05:56 AM
Cogent had a good solution, in that if your wealth was like a 15 and an item was like a 10, you could just get it for free because "It's like pocket change to you".

Everyday Heroes has an even simpler system, which I'm not quite a fan of.

I liked how Cogent/CoC 5th E do things, where some things require you to max out credit cards and roll dice, while others require no effort.

I jiust checked how Modern AGE does it, and yeah it's a pretty standard abstracted wealth system. Anything up to Resources+4 is automatic, up to Resources+9 is free but requires a roll, and Resources+10 or greater reduces your Resources by 1 if it's successful. It'sfiunctional, but part of that comes from using 3d6 instead of 1d20. Althgough bying in d20 Modern ids hilarioudsly punishing (it's either automatic or reduces your Wealth),


To anyone who got into all of this after 3.5 E, that sounds terrible. I'm really a fan of Pathfinder 2e and that takes like 4-6 hours to make a level 3 Paladin Half-Elf character. It was like half that in 5e, and would likely take like... 7-9 hours in 3.5 D&D.

Having "class skills" and "basic attack bonus" was the bane of my existence. It's literally why I started writing my own RPG system instead of just using D20 Modern.



What are you talking about?

Pathginder 1e solved the class skill problem, if class skills are a thing you want to keep. But skill points were pretty much never the thing that took tine in 3.5, that was navigating feat chainsand equipment purchases.

Now you can go overboard, I own games where spending all my skill points will take me 20-30 minutes (more if I have to calculate them), but at that point we're talking about having over a hundred. On the other hand I own games where I can make a full PC in ten minutes.


The playtest rules didn't cover wealth much. There's a short blurb in the playtest rules but is a basic "here are the levels of wealth from 0-6." (yeah...abstracted.) The playtests were built more around "build X types of characters and then do Y scenario to see if it works okay." We weren't really buying and selling things for the play test.

Nothing wrong with an abstract wealth system, coin counting sucks.

Easy e
2022-09-29, 10:45 AM
The terms D20 and Modern in the same sentence? That never excites me.

Tevo77777
2022-09-29, 04:37 PM
I jiust checked how Modern AGE does it, and yeah it's a pretty standard abstracted wealth system. Anything up to Resources+4 is automatic, up to Resources+9 is free but requires a roll, and Resources+10 or greater reduces your Resources by 1 if it's successful. It'sfiunctional, but part of that comes from using 3d6 instead of 1d20. Althgough bying in d20 Modern ids hilarioudsly punishing (it's either automatic or reduces your Wealth),


That sounds pretty great and I am considering finding a way to port that over now. Could be great for business characters, or people with agency credit cards, or people with Benefactors.

oxybe
2022-09-29, 09:44 PM
Is someone willing to pay me to say the words "I am excited for 5e content"?

Since this isn't a WotC product, I am not going to dismiss it off hand, but I couldn't care less for 5e D&D-based products.

I just have 0 enthusiasm for that game.

Tevo77777
2022-09-29, 09:59 PM
I was very confused when I saw threads on here claiming that 5e was a "Moderately Complex Game", because it has "Hundreds of pages of rules".

Anonymouswizard
2022-10-01, 07:45 AM
That sounds pretty great and I am considering finding a way to port that over now. Could be great for business characters, or people with agency credit cards, or people with Benefactors.

Honestly it's mostly the same as how d20 Modern works anyway, just a decent amount more lenient. Part of ii is the 3d6 making it very likely you can pick up minor items and less likely to nab anything that'll cost you, although it could stand to have some ground between 'no charge' and 'reduce score'.

Starting characters range between 0 Resources (Outsiders with physical occupations) and 10 Resources (Upper class with a Drive that gives bonus Resources), so it is entirely possible to have one character bankrolling the rest of the team. By which I mean no equipment in the corebook costs more than 16, at Resources 10 you can outfit the entire party with automatic rifles and ballistic plate without a roll.

For 5e, or heck 3.5 I'd be tempted to make Wealth an Ability Score. Value underneath your Wealth score requires a roll, above it you begin to acquire Debt, and you can drop a point or two of Wealth to clear Debt. Potentially add in a seventh Rich Hero class and the adventuring with money archetype becomes a lot more viable.

My favourite system, assuming you're playing a point buy game, is to just fold XP and money together. You have 'Resources', and you can use them to help you train or buy equipment. Another idea I have is that characters don't so much but individual items so much as narrative permission to have something hang around, if you buy a weapon then whenever you lose it you'll always have a new one next scene. But that kind of goes against the idea of equipment as fluid.


I was very confused when I saw threads on here claiming that 5e was a "Moderately Complex Game", because it has "Hundreds of pages of rules".

I'm honestly trying to work out what you mean here. Are you confused that people don't see it as a simple game, or as a complex game.

If it's the former then I can point you towards tons of simpler games.

Tevo77777
2022-10-01, 04:19 PM
I had campaigns where one of the backgrounds or classes let you bankroll the other characters, but the system wasn't nearly as formalized as what you suggested in terms of credit and liquid money.
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When people make videos about the complexity of 5e, they are not videos about how to make 5e simpler, they are videos about how to add mechanics or rules or options to 5e.

It is possible no living person has looked at a RPG system and sought to make it simpler (Unless it was 3.5 or Pathfinder 1e, so nevermind, I think 5e is just too simple to make simpler).
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I've played years and years of campaigns, where people kept track of their money, so I'm okay with that being a reality if it needs to be. I had a party straight up going to the Latin American market to get veggies and fruit, with three different currencies, along with using narcotics as money. Good times.

Anonymouswizard
2022-10-01, 06:36 PM
I had campaigns where one of the backgrounds or classes let you bankroll the other characters, but the system wasn't nearly as formalized as what you suggested in terms of credit and liquid money.

Yeah, I'm specifically trying to come up with something relatively codified, just to avoid abuse. I'm actually leaning closer into XP and Cred being the same resource atm


When people make videos about the complexity of 5e, they are not videos about how to make 5e simpler, they are videos about how to add mechanics or rules or options to 5e.

It is possible no living person has looked at a RPG system and sought to make it simpler (Unless it was 3.5 or Pathfinder 1e, so nevermind, I think 5e is just too simple to make simpler).

Considering the popularity of Fate Accelerated over Fate Core, the success of Mongoose Traveller 1e, and the existence of games like Those Dark Places, Paleomytbic, or Crescendo of Violence, it's very much possible for D&D 5e to be stripped down into something that isn't a horrific mess of rules and abilities. Hell Barebones Fantasy does a D&D style game very well in a rules-light style (13 spells!).

If you want to see how you might actually strip down the D&D 5e look at Shadowrun Anarchy. It's a version of Shadowrun 5e that took out most of the subsystems and defined abilities, and instead gave a decent if slightly exploitable way to build your own abilities

That said there's nothing wrong with a complex game. I own Shadowrun 4e as well as Anarchy, love my Trinity 2e books, and have Scion: Origin on the way. I just wish the designers of 5e would admit that it is one.

Unfortunately most people looking to 'fix' 5e haven't heard of proper simple games, if they're familiar with games outside of D&D at all.

I look at some of the games on my shelf and laugh at D&D being called anything other than complex or rules-heavy.
-

I've played years and years of campaigns, where people kept track of their money, so I'm okay with that being a reality if it needs to be. I had a party straight up going to the Latin American market to get veggies and fruit, with three different currencies, along with using narcotics as money. Good times.

I'm just tired of coin counting, I've seen it in a session maybe once. Mostly people just make purchases in between -session downtime. More abstract wealth is, IME, more likely to come up. The question becomes not 'do I have 63 pennies' but 'could my musician reasonably buy a cake'.

And coin counting in character creation is a chore. Blargh to ever making another Street Samurai.

Velaryon
2022-10-01, 10:50 PM
I've never had even the slightest bit of playing Real World D&D.

That said, d20 Modern provided a bridge to do some other games in a d20 setting that might not have been possible otherwise. One of my favorite games ever used a fan-made Terminator d20 conversion that worked surprisingly well. If Everyday Heroes can do the same, then I'll probably pick it up.

Kimera757
2023-12-12, 11:31 AM
I've never had even the slightest bit of playing Real World D&D.

That said, d20 Modern provided a bridge to do some other games in a d20 setting that might not have been possible otherwise. One of my favorite games ever used a fan-made Terminator d20 conversion that worked surprisingly well. If Everyday Heroes can do the same, then I'll probably pick it up.

I think it would work, and you could potentially play something like a Terminator with Universal Soldier or The Vault. (But you probably just want less extraordinary heroes.) The Vault has numerous robotic NPCs, and the core rules already have a "robotic assassin".