First level Fighter optimization Pathfinder

[Ivanken]

Hi all
creating my first ever charather
I am going for a dhampir fighter

Currently juggling whether to go dex or str based. The race itself has a plus +2 to dex which makes me lean in that direction, but am unsure. I am thinking dex would make me more survivable
The game is 15 point buy

The other questions I have are:
What would at first level can be more beneficial and deal damage reliably two-handed or sword and board

I am also looking which trait's to pick up and feats so far I have only selected Weapon Focus (Longsword) feat

[Treblain]

Strength and Dex fighter are both workable, but Str is much simpler and does better damage at low levels. Just take Power Attack and wield a greatsword and you're basically dealing the best possible damage at level 1.

For Dex, you have the advantage of lighter armor and initiative but you need Weapon Finesse for attack rolls and then you need to start looking into a way to increase your damage. Piranha Strike is the Dex equivalent of Power Attack but it's not as strong. There are several Dex-to-damage options such as Slashing Grace, or there's the Advanced Weapon Training 'Trained Grace' which increases your Weapon Training damage bonus if you don't have Dex-to-damage. Two Weapon Fighting is a strong option since it requires Dex and more attacks means more chances to use the damage bonuses from Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, etc. The Advanced Weapon Training 'Focused Weapon' lets you increase your weapon's damage die like a Warpriest which can set up things like dual kukri critical hit builds.

[Eldonauran]

Without knowing what game you are playing, I can only give general advice. Is it an adventure path or a homebrew game? Do you know what kind of creatures you are likely to fight?

If building a Dex based fighter, I would use this stat spread (racial bonuses included for a stock Dhamphir):
Str: 13, Dex: 17, Con: 12, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha 9 (15 point buy, +3 to Dex as you level, +1 to Str and +1 Cha; or you can dump all into Dex)

Personally, I'd go with working your way to an exotic finessable weapon (like the Aldori Dueling sword) for one handed + buckler combat, or a two-handed Elven curveblade + buckler with the use of the Unhindering Shield feat to get your shield AC bonus. That way, you have enough strength to make use of power attack (the better damaging boosting option) and still keep your AC high enough to be competitive. You can have an AC of 18 at first level with Lamellar (leather) armor (+4 AC, +3 Dex, +1 buckler), which is pretty good. Trade it off for Mithril Medium armor when you are of sufficient level for it (and your DEX is higher).

I'd probably go:

1) Weapon Finesse & Power Attack (bonus feat)
2) Exotic Weapon Prof (insert weapon of choice)
3) Shield Focus
4) Unhindering Shield
5) Furious Focus

Then, I'd start branching out from there, with your fighter weapon mastery used to improved your ability to deal damage with your melee weapon, and your feats to pick up better options for ranged combat or making yourself more versatile, since you are heading into 'enemy has fireball' territory and flight is going to be a bigger concern.

[Kurald Galain]

An alternative to consider is the reach weapon fighter, then go for Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip.

You are correct that dex is more survivable, and Treblain is correct that str deals more damage at lower levels. Either way, pick one and stick with it; don't try to go halfsies like "dex-based but with Power Attack"; if dex-based, go for Piranha Strike and Slashing Grace, keep your str to a bare minimum (8 or so) and spend your points on constitution or more dex.

If you skip all the magical stuff, the Magus guide (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) has information for frontliners in general, including feats, traits, and items. HTH!

[Ivanken]

To answer a few things
We are playing the kingmaker, don't know the monsters we will fight

I have been thinking about using polearms and reach, but it doesn't work too well with the charather concept I have in mind, I do however think that the whole dex weapon and buckler would fit in very nicely, I don't know what to use exactly but I will do my best to get the sheet done and share it here as well once that is done

[Kurald Galain]

the whole dex weapon and buckler would fit in very nicely, I don't know what to use exactly but I will do my best to get the sheet done and share it here as well once that is done

Consider taking the Swashbuckler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/) class instead of fighter; it's a melee class aimed at dex-based fighting with a rapier or similar weapon (and optionally, a buckler) and gets some nice evasive class features, as well as better skills than the fighter.

[Firechanter]

There are some things to consider in the context:

- if your GM is going to run Kingmaker as printed (and we're talking about the old edition; don't know about the new one), any non-gimped build will do because it's very easy. If your GM reworks the encounters, of course, the bets are off.
- due to the Hexploration nature of the AP, you'll often have only 1 encounter per day - with the exception of dungeons, which also appear, of course. So Nova classes like the Magus can be very effective here.
- for the same reason, a lot of encounters are set out in the open; however I'd still stay away from mounted concepts.
- the Player's Guide is worse than useless when it comes to prospective opposition. It mentions no less than 13 creature types, but more than half of them only occur incidentally, and some not at all.
- the AP has some scripted weapon drops where the GM is advised to adjust the exact type of weapon to the preferences and feat choices of the players. If your GM heeds such advice, fine. If he tends to let the items drop as written, go for Bastard Sword. ;)
- every PC is expected to fill a role in the administration, like General, Diplomat etc. There's something for each ability, but the key stat for the Ruler is CHA. ;)

--

So much for the Kingmaker AP in particular. More generally speaking:

- be aware that the Fighter in Pathfinder is good at fighting, and _nothing else_. You will have _zero_ competencies whenever Initiative is not rolled.
- Dhampirs get not only a DEX but also a CHA bonus. And a CON penalty, which will hurt severely, especially at a 15 point buy, which is too low to offset it with more points. You will likely start with CON 10 or at best 12, and that will require another dump stat. Also, Dhampirs react to Positive and Negative energy like Undead, so you can't benefit from a Good cleric's Channeling or spontaneous cure spells. In short, they are a bitch to heal.
- That said, you should _definitely_ build your character to your (race's) strengths, especially at such a low Point Buy. So, something that uses DEX and CHA, and ideally doesn't get hit often.

I second Kurald's suggestion regarding the Swashbuckler. They make use of DEX and CHA, and can be skilled for very high AC so you won't lose so many of your precious HP. Though with the CON penalty and healing complications, I'd probably rather go for a Ranged build altogether, as long as there are enough Melee guys in the party.
Anyway, Swashbuckler has a useful archetype called Rostland Bravo which is a perfect fit for a Kingmaker game, so it has that going for it, which is nice.
Having good CHA and decent skill points, you should also take a trait that gives you Use Magic Device in class, so by mid-levels you'll be able to use wands.

Or take a different race. Personally I feel Dhampirs are a liability unless the entire party is skilled to accomodate it.

So in short, I'd arrange a Dhampir Swashbuckler's stats roughly like so:

Str 8
Dex 18 (16)
Con 10 (12)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16 (14)

Traits: Sword Scion, Dangerously Curious

Class: Swashbuckler
Archetype: Rostland Bravo

Feats:
B: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Aldori Dueling Sword
1: Weapon Focus or Slashing Grace; the other one at level 3

If you survive the first few levels, I'd dip into Unchained Monk / Sacred Fist at some point (level 5 probably), to gain CHA to AC and skill for Crane Wing. That'll take until level 7 to come online but will really boost your AC.

Yeah, that's bascially it. =)

P.S.: oh yeah, another complication of dumping Strength is that you can only carry 26 pounds without encumbrance. That's not even enough for a chain shirt and a weapon.

[Kurald Galain]

P.S.: oh yeah, another complication of dumping Strength is that you can only carry 26 pounds without encumbrance. That's not even enough for a chain shirt and a weapon.

No, but with high dex you can afford to have one less point of AC until you can buy a Mithral Chain Shirt. That's half the weight, and only 1100 gp so should be affordable at level 2 or 3.

[Eldonauran]

Knowing that you are going into Kingmaker, it doesn't change my recommendation at all. In fact, I would still recommend dipping into Power Attack and Furious Focus to get that extra damage boost (and offsetting that penalty to hit on your first attack of the round). Keeping to light armor and keeping your carry weight lower is going to be helpful. A lot of the challenge of the early parts of the book have a built in expectation that you might be going into them fatigued due to the travel involved.

If you are going to be a straight fighter, you have more than enough combat feats to take care of your combat needs. Use your traits and other character feats to flesh out what you can do outside of combat. And find a way to make use of Use Magic Device. You might not be a mage, or mage-lite, but having the ability to make use of scrolls, wands, or other items will be to your best interest. Don't worry about having a low Charisma. Take skill focus if you need to.


No, but with high dex you can afford to have one less point of AC until you can buy a Mithral Chain Shirt. That's half the weight, and only 1100 gp so should be affordable at level 2 or 3.Not in Kingmaker. Your ability to get quality items of choice is pretty limited in the early levels. It is literally a romp through the wilds to create your own kingdom. Good markets are going to be rare for a while.

[Ivanken]

An important bit that I forgot to mention not all races and class are allowed and we are book limited a on the choices, I did basically follow advice of Eldonauran here and went with that idea since my main character idea was as follows:

The idea is that he is out there trying to prove not all dhampirs are bad while protecting the common folk form any beasts he can, while also trying to hunt down the one who fathered him and revenge his mother for what he put her through. Through the blessing of Sarenrae has managed to stay alive and birth him. There fore he is a day born.

To add to this Vampire hunter and Swashbuckler classes are as far as I know not on the allowed resources
I also decided to pick up elven and give him a rank in alchemy crafting, mostly because I see him as a moure resourceful type, of trying to use everything he has to his advantage. That being said the traits I picked up are: Suspicious and Reactionary


I still don't have enough posts to post my full link but my sheet is on myth weavers com and here is the last part of the link
/sheet.html#id=2701269

[Eldonauran]

If you can swing the GP cost for the Aldori Dueling sword, I would highly suggest picking up one to start the game with, especially since you can still use the weapon without exotic weapon proficiency (treated as a longsword) though you can't make use of the weapon finesse with it until you do have proficiency. The odds of you finding one out in the wild are fairly reduced. Work with your GM about that, if you can.

The Negative Affinity racial trait is going to a bit of sticking point when it comes to healing. Try to get your hands on a Wand of Inflict Light wounds or Infernal Healing as quickly as you can. Maybe swap out your Suspicious trait for one that grants you the UMD device skill as a class skill.

Other than that, you've got a solid chassis to build off of and even multiclass class out of if you really want to do so.

[Ivanken]

One of the players has been allowed the Aldori Defender Fighter and has the dueling sword, and I don't think I can squezze the gold for it other then dropping a longbow for a shortbow

[Ivanken]

I will say that i don't understand the difference/hype between that and a rapier to be honest, if you could explain it to me? Bc my friend also recommended it

[Drelua]

To add to this Vampire hunter and Swashbuckler classes are as far as I know not on the allowed resources
I also decided to pick up elven and give him a rank in alchemy crafting, mostly because I see him as a moure resourceful type, of trying to use everything he has to his advantage. That being said the traits I picked up are: Suspicious and Reactionary


I still don't have enough posts to post my full link but my sheet is on myth weavers com and here is the last part of the link
/sheet.html#id=2701269

Here's a full link (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2701269) to save some people the trouble.

I would find out if Piranha Strike is allowed, and if it is take a few points out of strength. It's just Power Attack for dex characters, except you can't increase the damage bonus by two-handing, not that you can two-hand a rapier anyway. And if you're playing a fighter, definitely ask about Weapon Master's Handbook and Armor Masters Handbook, Advanced Weapon Training alone is a big buff to Fighters and there's a bunch of other cool options in there.

Not sure what Fighter archetypes to recommend, Lore Warden's good but losing Armor Training stings for a dex based character since that lets you wear heavier armor without losing your dex bonus. Ustalavic Duelist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/learned-duelist-fighter-archetype) might be good, especially if you don't have access to Advanced Weapon Training because they lose their later Weapon Trainings. They do still have weapon training though, so items that boost it should still work.

Fun trick I learned playing that archetype; if you get swallowed whole, you can't use one-handed weapons, only light. So carry a rapier sized for a halfling, you'll take a -2 to hit with it but if you have weapon focus and fencing grace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fencing-grace-combat/) it's still better than a dagger.

[Ivanken]

Thank you for the link!
I have thought about asking for some books, but it's my first time so I'm quite happy with what I have and feel spoiled for choice, I will say that I DO NOT want to play an archetype, it's just all too much

From looking books where Piranha Strike is from I do not think it is allowed, correct me if I am wrong but from what i understood power attack can be used with a dex weapon it just specifies that it must be a melee attack

[Eldonauran]

I will say that i don't understand the difference/hype between that and a rapier to be honest, if you could explain it to me? Bc my friend also recommended it
Link to the Aldori Dueling Sword (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Aldori%20due ling%20sword) for reference. Its main draw is that even without exotic proficiency with it, it functions as a longsword. Its just a bonus that getting prof. with it lets you use weapon finesse with it. And it fits within the Heavy Blade fighter weapon group. This allows for more options down the road if you start using some of the alternatives to weapon training.

If there is already another character using that weapon, and that particular fighting style... You might be better served making use of an elven curved blade. The critical range is better. The trade off is that you won't get a use out of your buckler AC until you actually take Unhindering Shield.

As Drelua mentioned, about being unable to use one-handed or two-handed weapons, ALWAYS have a light weapon handy. I am a particular fan of the Spike Gauntlet on your offhand/buckler arm. Use a normal gauntlet on your main hand. That way, you have all three damage types covered as you need them.

Piranha Strike strike is a nice feat, but if you have the Strength to pick up Power attack and the ability/tendency to swing that weapon with two hands, Furious Focus merely existing as a feat makes it a seriously delightful choice. You can pair it up with Vital Strike, and use them together when you are unable to take a full attack action. Since you aren't getting a lot of extra damage from your Strength (mostly just power attack), you really arent losing too much damage potential and you can even use Vital Strike with a bow (though those tend to work best as full attack actions). Furious Focus makes it exceedingly unlikely that you will miss your first attack when you Power Attack.

[Ivanken]

Link to the Aldori Dueling Sword (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Aldori%20due ling%20sword) for reference. Its main draw is that even without exotic proficiency with it, it functions as a longsword. Its just a bonus that getting prof. with it lets you use weapon finesse with it. And it fits within the Heavy Blade fighter weapon group. This allows for more options down the road if you start using some of the alternatives to weapon training.

If there is already another character using that weapon, and that particular fighting style... You might be better served making use of an elven curved blade. The critical range is better. The trade off is that you won't get a use out of your buckler AC until you actually take Unhindering Shield.

As Drelua mentioned, about being unable to use one-handed or two-handed weapons, ALWAYS have a light weapon handy. I am a particular fan of the Spike Gauntlet on your offhand/buckler arm. Use a normal gauntlet on your main hand. That way, you have all three damage types covered as you need them.

Piranha Strike strike is a nice feat, but if you have the Strength to pick up Power attack and the ability/tendency to swing that weapon with two hands, Furious Focus merely existing as a feat makes it a seriously delightful choice. You can pair it up with Vital Strike, and use them together when you are unable to take a full attack action. Since you aren't getting a lot of extra damage from your Strength (mostly just power attack), you really aren't losing too much damage potential and you can even use Vital Strike with a bow (though those tend to work best as full attack actions). Furious Focus makes it exceedingly unlikely that you will miss your first attack when you Power Attack.


I will honestly say you lost me with all the feats, I am still lost will all the math and comprehending stuff, to be honest and all the feat talk just gets me confused.
I understand that


I still don't understand if I can or can not use a buckler in right hand and a sword in the left without incurring the penalty from the buckler

[Eldonauran]

You can use the buckler and a one handed weapon with no issue. You only take the -1 to hit if you attempt to use the hand/arm the buckler is one while making a melee attack (ie, either you are using two weapons or you are using a two-handed weapon). Unhindering Shield (feat) pretty much does away with those penalties, and even let's a monk use a buckler without messing with their class features.

The interactions between Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike can all wait until you are more familiar with the game. The three won't even come into play at the same time until level 6, so don't stress too much over it.

[Arkain]

As for exotic weapons, do note that there is also a trait (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon/) that can give you proficiency, saving you a feat. You can simply upgrade the weapon to masterwork quality a little later with the spell Masterwork Transformation. It's fairly low level and cheap, even if you simply pay an NPC for it. There is also nothing wrong with going with a rapier, however.
From how this sounds to me I'd personally also ask the other player how they feel about potentially having two similar characters in the party. I've found that it can lead to frustration (or actually cool stuff), but how to handle this is all on you guys.

A core difference between the weapons is that rapiers do a little less damage, but have a higher chance for critical hits. The damage type is also different and on a purely technical level, piercing is slightly worse. You don't have to care about that. Carry a dagger as a backup anyhow, there is your slashing weapon if you really need one. Dueling swords are also peculiar in that while they are technically heavy blades that require strength, they can be finessed if you have the exotic proficiency. This does mean you can wield them in two hands. Rapiers are a bit odd there, as they can be finessed, count as light blades, can't be two-handed, but aren't light weapons (important for dual-wielding, for instance).
Duelings swords also have some mechanical support with classes (e.g. Aldori Swordlord) and feats (e.g. Dueling Mastery) all about using them in some specific way. Note that this is also at times true for other weapons, such as rapiers. The Inspired Blade Swashbuckler archetype is focused on rapiers, for instance.

By the way, if you do not wish to go dex-based, do note that dhampirs can have other heritages than the standard one, one of which, moroi-born, basically trades the dex bonus for a str bonus.

[spectralphoenix]

Here's a full link (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2701269) to save some people the trouble.

I would find out if Piranha Strike is allowed, and if it is take a few points out of strength. It's just Power Attack for dex characters, except you can't increase the damage bonus by two-handing, not that you can two-hand a rapier anyway. And if you're playing a fighter, definitely ask about Weapon Master's Handbook and Armor Masters Handbook, Advanced Weapon Training alone is a big buff to Fighters and there's a bunch of other cool options in there.

Fun trick I learned playing that archetype; if you get swallowed whole, you can't use one-handed weapons, only light. So carry a rapier sized for a halfling, you'll take a -2 to hit with it but if you have weapon focus and fencing grace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fencing-grace-combat/) it's still better than a dagger.

Piranha Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) only works with light weapons in the first place.

[Drelua]

Piranha Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) only works with light weapons in the first place.

My bad, I missed that bit. I'd rather save the attribute points and hold out for an effortless lace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace/), 2500gp just seems way cheaper to me than a few point buy... points.

Although the Giant Hunter's Handbook likely isn't allowed if it's a limited book list, so that may not be an option.

[Seerow]

One of the players has been allowed the Aldori Defender Fighter and has the dueling sword, and I don't think I can squezze the gold for it other then dropping a longbow for a shortbow

If you already have another player going straight dex based fighter, I'd strongly reconsider the current direction you're looking. Unless the party is like 6+ people, you and the other fighter will be stepping all over each others toes, fighting over the same gear.

You've also mentioned having gold be an issue because you want to have a Longbow... why not lean into that? Dhampir Ranger is a solid choice. Player's guide recommends following as good options for favored enemies: : animal, dragon, fey, humanoid (boggard, human, giant, or reptilian), magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, undead, and vermin. Animal or Humanoid (Human) would probably be a safe bet for level 1. Though from the background you gave (wanting to hunt down your father) a favored enemy Undead would be particularly fitting.

Or if you are set on being a frontliner, instead of both of you going dex based, let him do his Aldori Duelist thing and you can go full str based two-handed fighter. Or even swap over to Barbarian. While Nosferatu gives +dex, there are several Nosferatu ancestries you can take that are str boosting instead that would work for this. Personally, especially for a Kingmaker campaign which has a heavy focus on wilderness exploration I'd lean towards Barbarian or Ranger just to have some of those skills in my toolset. The fighter is really going to be stuck sitting around sitting on his hands a lot of the time due to lack of relevant skills or out of combat class features.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Firechanter
So in short, I'd arrange a Dhampir Swashbuckler's stats roughly like so:

Str 8
Dex 18 (16)
Con 10 (12)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16 (14)

Traits: Sword Scion, Dangerously Curious

Class: Swashbuckler
Archetype: Rostland Bravo

Feats:
B: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Aldori Dueling Sword
1: Weapon Focus or Slashing Grace; the other one at level 3

For this approach, do you mean that Weapon Focus should be at first, and Slashing Grace at third? Or is there some way to take Slashing Grace at first without needing the Weapon Focus?

[Firechanter]

Ah good catch, ofc you need Weapon Focus first, that had slipped my mind.

I originally made the build for Human and a higher Point Buy; and as such it looks like this (ofc it could potentially be optimized further):

Swashbuckler (Rostland Bravo) 8+ / UnMonk (Scaled Fist) 1

Str 8
Dex 16(18)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16

Traits:
Sword Scion
Dangerously Curious

Feats
R Weapon Focus Aldori Dueling Sword
B EWP ADS
1 Slashing Grace
M1 Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Crane Style
AT3 Dazzling Display
B4 Hero's Display*
5 Crane Wing
7 Shatter Defenses
B8 Osyluth's Guile
9 Crane Riposte

So in case it isn't clear, the Monk dip comes at level 3, so you can immediately bring Crane Style online. This is actually the main reason to take this dip; you'll still want to wear a Mithral Chainshirt instead of relying on the CHA bonus.
*) Hero's Display isn't strictly necessary; actually it only makes sense if your GM agrees that you can use it in any fight, not just performance ones. I mainly picked it to capitalize on Dazzling Display which you get from the archetype anyway.
I haven't planned the build further than level 10 bc that was precisely the level I needed it for.

At PC WBL, at level 10 you can expect Attack +20/+15, dmg 1d8+16, CMD 40, AC ~37 with Osyluth's Guile and no external buffs. Sure, the entire build is not super optimized, but it's easy to play, fun and good enough for games that don't require you to be a full caster to be relevant. ^^