Dual wielding Beast Barbarian

[kenfighter]

I have recently moved from Pathfinder to DND5e so excuse me for being still confused about the rules.

My Path of the Beast Barbarian got Form of the Beast on third level, and with that, the sweet tail attack (that my master agreed we could pretend to be a tongue because it seemed to me to be much cooler). I have been using the rapier up until this point, because it seems to be fine if I dualclass to rogue at one point for the sneak attack. Of course, the tail (tongue) can not deliver Sneak Attack since it is not a finesse weapon, but it counts as a simple melee weapon for me. So...by what I read in the rules, if i invest in Dual Wielder feet I could use the tail as primary attack and "Dual Wield" the rapier as an-off hand attack. Additionally, the off-hand attack with the rapier could cause a Sneak Attack every round because of Reckless Attack!? Am I following this correctly? Can I even use the shield in the left empty hand?! Does it sound too OP? Can it be house ruled with some limitations?

[Mastikator]

You're reading it correctly, I don't think it's overpowered, takes a lot of levels to set up so you'd have to be T2 at least to start pulling this off.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Two weapon fighting does require both the primary weapon and the off hand weapon to be held in your hands, so for the tail attack I don't think it works.

There's some way to use it with the claw attack though if I recall correctly, though it's a pretty finicky rules interaction.

[Zhorn]

There's some way to use it with the claw attack though if I recall correctly, though it's a pretty finicky rules interaction.
Sounds like someone's playing my song :smallbiggrin:
PS Godot: loving the new avatar.

@OP
I have the full breakdown of how the rules for this whole sequence works in an older thread here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24915499&postcount=8)

but the TL;DR sequence is as follows;
For sustainability each round, we need our starting and ending condition to always be the same.
Assuming no feats, start each round with a light melee weapon in each hand (also assuming you are already raging at this point with claws)

Step 1: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2: Attack Action with claw
Step 3: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our starting state.
4 Attacks with a level 5 Path of the Beast Barbarian, all 100% RAW compliant and supported without feats.

again, go to the provided link for all the sighted rules interactions and clarifications.
The order is a precise sequence to pull off, so it doesn't offer much flexibility, but adding a level of rogue on top of that will be easy to add a sneak attack into the mix, reliably so with Reckless Attack.

[kenfighter]

Jeeea! Well, I am really not into optimisation on that level. I just want to sneak attack with Path of the Beast. Could it be viable then to attack with one claw as an action and with a rapier/ short sword as a bonus action, since you mentioned: "The Attacks using the claws from Form of the Beast make no requirement of using different hands for each attack, and so you can do all your claw Attacks in the Attack Action with the same hand if you wish"?

[Psyren]

Do you have Extra Attack? You can just do one swing with your tail and one with your rapier, getting sneak attack with the latter. And once you attack with the rapier, you can attack with another weapon in your offhand like a dagger if you're after TWF. This will give you a second opportunity to sneak attack if you missed with the rapier. I wouldn't bother with Dual Wielder or anything like that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Do you have Extra Attack? You can just do one swing with your tail and one with your rapier, getting sneak attack with the latter. And once you attack with the rapier, you can attack with another weapon in your offhand like a dagger if you're after TWF. This will give you a second opportunity to sneak attack if you missed with the rapier. I wouldn't bother with Dual Wielder or anything like that.

You would need dual wielder to use the rapier, both weapons need to be light otherwise.

[Psyren]

You would need dual wielder to use the rapier, both weapons need to be light otherwise.

Ah right. I would probably just downgrade to a short-sword then, an average of +1 damage isn't worth a feat.

[Zhorn]

Could it be viable then to attack with one claw as an action and with a rapier/ short sword as a bonus action, since you mentioned: "The Attacks using the claws from Form of the Beast make no requirement of using different hands for each attack, and so you can do all your claw Attacks in the Attack Action with the same hand if you wish"?
Not really.
There was a whole debate about that kind of stuff when Tasha's first released. What I posted before was the end result of accounting for all the rules interactions to navigate around the TWF requirements.
To get the bonus action attack, you need to be 'holding' a weapon in each hand at the point in time you make the triggering attack.
The claws are not a weapon held in hand, so at baseline attacks with the claws cannot trigger TWF.

An argument can be made for taking the Dual Wielder feat, since the specification of the feat rephrases the weapon requirement as 'wielding' instead of 'holding' (very silly technicality), and that opens the case to debate with the DM the claws now qualify, but if the DM is going to allow that, there's a good chance they'd have let you get away without the feat anyway. It's a grey area needing DM buy-in, not a hard-n-fast rule.

One of those rare instances where Psyren and I are in agreement in saying not to bother with Dual Wielder. the opportunity cost for taking the feat to use the d8 rapier is less of a DPR increase than just boosting your attack stat via the ASI and sticking with d6 weapons.

Talk with your DM first regarding their stance on being permissive with a table ruling that lets you just jump to TWF with Rapier+tail as you initially wanted. What you want to do isn't gamebreakingly powerful enough to cause any problems.

[Person_Man]

I think that the main benefit of Barbarian/Rogue is having Advantage on Str checks from Rage, and double proficiency bonus on Athletics from Expertise. Plus possibly higher AC from prioritizing Dex/Con with Unarmored Defense.

The DPR for straight Rogue, straight Barbarian (using a two handed weapon), and multiclass Rogue/Barbarian is going to be roughly comparable, once you account for Feats, Sneak Attack Finesse limitation, etc.

Honestly, I’d be fine with a Beast Barbarian or Rogue/Barbarian using Shortsword/Claw attacking with each twice per round (which legitimately gives a big damage boost at low levels) without the silliness of dropping a weapon every turn. Its limited by Rage uses. Claw is a Str based weapon, which makes Dex synergy harder. It uses the bonus action. And both classes are otherwise outshined by most other builds at high levels.