Kraagor's true fate may be inside the rift

[Dante2001]

Like the title says, I am thinking Kraagor may not be dead but rather inside the Rift. I think his fate/life could be tied nicely with Belkar since the prophecy says he'll breath his last one in less than a year (maybe this month in-comic time?). So maybe Belkar passes through the rift along with Kraagor and he breathes for the last time in this world but not in the rift-world. I don't know exactly what this could entail or mean, just a thought I had regarding Kraagor's last panel being too near the gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[Peelee]

I think his fate/life could be tied nicely with Belkar since the prophecy says he'll breath his last one in less than a year (maybe this month in-comic time?). So maybe Belkar passes through the rift along with Kraagor and he breathes for the last time in this world but not in the rift-world.

"Belkar will draw his last breath ever" is quite different than "Belkar will draw his last breath ever in this world". And that's ignoring all the other prophecies about Belkar from the Oracle.

[Laurentio III]

"Belkar will draw his last breath ever" is quite different than "Belkar will draw his last breath ever in this world". And that's ignoring all the other prophecies about Belkar from the Oracle.
With that wording, even undead is hardly fitting.

[Rrmcklin]

It seems the main point isn't even about Kragoor but (yet another) attempt to say that Belkar isn't actually going to die. In which case, you could just say that. Doesn't make it any more likely, but seems a bit more straightforward.

[Metastachydium]

Hm. Unlikely, but whatever. Just make sure you keep in mind that I'm honour-bound to try and strangle the first person who so much as brings up Giggles.

…

Other than myself, obviously.

[gbaji]

"Belkar will draw his last breath ever" is quite different than "Belkar will draw his last breath ever in this world". And that's ignoring all the other prophecies about Belkar from the Oracle.

I pointed this out in another thread about Belkar's fate. If we assume the Oracle's future vision cannot see into the rift (a reasonable assumption), then anything that enters (and never comes out), just... stops. There is no future for that person or thing from that point forward as far as the Oracle is concerned. That last breath before Belkar entered the rift would be "his last breath ever". The addition of "in this world" is unnecessary because the Oracle would have no reason to even speculate that Belkar might continue to breathe on some other world which he can't see and will never see. The Oracle simply does not see any future point in Belkar's life in which Belkar draws a breath past that one.

Every single Oracle prophesy actually works while still allowing for a case where Belkar enters the rift, survives, and lives out the entire remainder of his life there. Put another way: If Belkar entering the rift and being completely unmade (body and soul utterly destroyed) as a result satisfies the Oracles prophesies (and I think most people would agree that it does), then Belkar entering the rift and surviving on the other side also satisfies the same prophesies, as long as he never returns. Because the Oracle has no way to know the difference.

[Anymage]

Belkar continuing to exist inside the rift is possible, but kind of tangential to his larger narrative arc. His overarching theme is that he's been pretending to grow and be a team player, and slowly but surely that's leading to real change. The culmination of all that is going to be either him volunteering for a risky job that gets him killed, or sacrificing himself for the greater good. He doesn't get to hang around as an undead (as countless theories posited back during Utterly Dwarfed), he isn't going to just chill for the rest of his days at a vacation spot inside the rift planet, he's going to pay the ultimate price for the greater good.

If Belkar is going to get any postmortem continuity, the IFCC is his best bet. My money is on him dying and either being obliterated on-screen or falling off the narrative after he dies, but he hasn't had nearly enough time to atone for his whole history so he's probably going downstairs if he goes anywhere at all. That's the IFCC's neighborhood, and we know that they still have more story ahead of them.

[Peelee]

I pointed this out in another thread about Belkar's fate. If we assume the Oracle's future vision cannot see into the rift (a reasonable assumption)

Why is that a reasonable assumption?

[halfeye]

Why is that a reasonable assumption?

Because the Oracle's power comes from Tiamat, and gods don't know there's anything inside the rifts.

Which doesn't mean that the Snarl isn't an ominicidal maniac that would kill Belkar as soon as look at him.

[brian 333]

Why is that a reasonable assumption?

That was my question too.

A living Kraagor isn't within the range of Laurin's ability to detect life through Girard's rift. In fact, no living thing was.

Kraagor may be stowed, like Ilia in Star Trek TMP, inside The Snarl, but I doubt he could be considered alive.

What I consider interesting is the insistence by many that The Author intends to subvert his very obvious, pointedly stated prophecy. If he does, it will be the first time. All of the other prophecies came true in a completely straightforward manner.

[Peelee]

Because the Oracle's power comes from Tiamat, and gods don't know there's anything inside the rifts.

Notwithstanding that even Tiamat was not aware about the future that the Oracle foretold (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html), no, I do not think it is reasonable to assume that the Oracle would not know about the goings on inside the rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html).

[Lexible]

"Belkar will draw his last breath ever" is quite different than "Belkar will draw his last breath ever in this world". And that's ignoring all the other prophecies about Belkar from the Oracle.

I am still holding out hope for for Belkar retires in Xykon's astral fortress (once its original owner has been de-liched): no breathing, no eating, no aging. Plus astral fortress with Mr. Scruffs & Bloodfeast the Extreminator sounds metal as all got out.

[Peelee]

I am still holding out hope for for Belkar retires in Xykon's astral fortress (once its original owner has been de-liched): no breathing, no eating, no aging. Plus astral fortress with Mr. Scruffs & Bloodfeast the Extreminator sounds metal as all got out.

Wouldn't Belkar fall prey to all the traps Xykon had set? Also, why would the Oracle gloat about such a fate?

[Metastachydium]

"Belkar will draw his last breath ever" is quite different than "Belkar will draw his last breath ever in this world". And that's ignoring all the other prophecies about Belkar from the Oracle.

It's a good thing we already have a fringe theory that covers all of those (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25515924&postcount=224) as well, then!

[InvisibleBison]

gods don't know there's anything inside the rifts.

We have no reason to think that is true. Thor may not have known about about the world inside the rift, but not knowing one thing about what's inside the rifts is not the same as not knowing anything about what's inside the rifts, and Thor not knowing something doesn't mean none of the other gods know it.

[Rrmcklin]

That was my question too.

A living Kraagor isn't within the range of Laurin's ability to detect life through Girard's rift. In fact, no living thing was.

Kraagor may be stowed, like Ilia in Star Trek TMP, inside The Snarl, but I doubt he could be considered alive.

What I consider interesting is the insistence by many that The Author intends to subvert his very obvious, pointedly stated prophecy. If he does, it will be the first time. All of the other prophecies came true in a completely straightforward manner.

Well, a certain subset of people apparently insist that at least a few of the others haven't been straightforward/don't actually mean what they mean, so that's par for the course, I think.

[gbaji]

A living Kraagor isn't within the range of Laurin's ability to detect life through Girard's rift. In fact, no living thing was.

Yeah. That's a wrinkle. Then again, we saw clear evidence of geenery (and clouds) on the world in the rift that Blackwing saw. I'm still going with the idea that "this is a completely different world" angle. I'm speaking from a world building pov here, but we know that many worlds have been created by the gods over time. We also know that these worlds had radically different creatures living within them. Also, presumably, the very nature of magic and how it works may change from world to world as well (cause, why not?). From a "cosmic power" pov, same. From a "what form does magic take for mortals/outsiders, if it exists at all, and how is it used", things can certainly change from world to world.

Do all worlds ever created by the gods have psionics? Assuming no, then can we assume that the world within the snarl would use psionics, and that it would work the same (be compatible) with someone "outside" that world, looking in? Could just be that she's not able to detect much inside the world (other than there there is a world perhaps)? I've played in and run a number of game worlds in which there are planar/universe travel adventures, and one of the common things you might do is have magic just work differently (or not at all) in some other world than it does where the adventurers are from.

Seems like the snarl's world (if it exists) would almost certainly have different rules for magic (if it even has magic at all) than the prime material plane that the gods just happened to create the last time. So I don't put a lot of stock in a divinatory spell/effect from one world projected into another, actually revealing much more than maybe what could be physically seen through the rift itself anyway.


What I consider interesting is the insistence by many that The Author intends to subvert his very obvious, pointedly stated prophecy. If he does, it will be the first time. All of the other prophecies came true in a completely straightforward manner.

I'm not arguing that it *is* this, but merely that "it could be". The rules and facts we have seen so far does not preclude the possibility. That's it. I'm also not sure I agree with what "The Author intends". What you think is intended and what Rich is actually thinking may be two very different things. I'm also not sure I agree in terms of how straightforward the various prophesies were. Yes. They were all factually true, but in true prophetic tradition, they were also pretty consistently not what the recipients thought at the time. People still argue today about whether Durkon's "posthumously" prophesy was fair/accurate/truthful (and let's not get started on "three words"). If there's one consistent thing about the Oracle's prophesies is that they all fail to make the person receiving them know what exactly they mean until after they take place (which if you think about it is almost necessary for a prophesy to work anyway).

Why assume in this case, that it's absolutely straightforward and exactly what it appears? Note, that the Oracle doesn't mention anything about an afterlife. You'd think, especially given the animosity between them, that he'd take great pleasure in describing Belkar's horrific punishment in some hell afterlife, if that was what he was meant for, right? Yet nothing even remotely close to "He'll be pounding rocks in <wherever>, with a lake of lava nearby, water just out of his reach, and forced to eat only boiled brussels sprouts" by next year", or something similar? Just "he'll take his last breath ever", and "he should enjoy his birthday cake", and "he shouldn't worry about his 401k" type statements. If we're to interpret the intention of the Author, it certainly seems to be to make this vague so it's not obvious what will happen. If Rich wanted to be absolutely clear that Belkar was going to die, the prophesies would (or could) have been worded differently.


Notwithstanding that even Tiamat was not aware about the future that the Oracle foretold (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html), no, I do not think it is reasonable to assume that the Oracle would not know about the goings on inside the rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html).

I don't know if I'd take fourth wall breaking humor as a strong argument. However, my own position on the scope of the Orcacle's vision still stands. Perhaps, assuming this is more than just a joke by the Author (which I doubt), his oracular vison is also limited to only parts of the future release of the books that deal with "in-universe" things. That's certainly no more absurd and contrived than the fact that he's seeing the future release of the book and interpreting from there in the first place. Or, quite possibly, that he's just jerking their chains. He's only required to be truthful about things said in his "official" oracular trance. Casual comments could be taken as accidental slips of what he actually sees, or just him messing with people.

He even specifically made the statements made to Roy about Belkar "official" for him, so he'd take it as truth. We can speculate that this is the Author telling us that we can't take anything not in such an official format as literal truth.


While I'm not married to the idea of Belkar surviving in the rift as a possible alternative explanation for the prophesies, I do think it does follow his character development arc and allows for a more satisfying resolution (maybe). Many posters have argued back and forth (legitimately btw) that Belkar, regardless of how he's been behaving recently, simply can't make up for his lifetime of chaotic evil acts in any way that would allow for an actual alignment change in the short time remaining. One possibility (with a ton of foreshadowing) is that he at some point, makes some huge decision to sacrifice himself, and then realizes his pendant doesn't hurt him anymore. Dramatic. Tear dropping even. And certainly seems like a very straightforward way to do things. But lots of people think that seems to easy/fast. Alignment change just doesn't happen that fast. And they'd be right (although, of course Rich is the author, and can do as he pleases). But from an objective standpoint, it does seem too "obvious trope is obvious". Of course, the evil person makes a dramatic gesture, and of course they die in the process, and of course they are redeemed by doing so. Could certainly be the plan. Would certainly work. And absolutely fits with the Oracles prophesies.

I'm just presenting an alternative. Again, assuming there is a world in the rift, and assuming it is possible for life to exist/survive there (maybe a whole world full of people even), and (biggest if) if it's possible to travel there, then, just as with the question about "how does magic work there", we also have to examine other aspects of "what would a world inside the rift look like".

This world is made entirely of the threads of material used to make the prime material plane. So it *could* have magic. Maybe. But it would not have access to the outer planes, right? The literally don't exist in that world. But it's the outer planes which form thoughts/concepts/whatever. And we have seen that these thought archetypes seem to coalesce into different types, based on outlooks. And guess, what? Those form the alignment system of the universe. It's literally a foundation of the structure of the outer planes. They form as direct aspects of each alignment. What happens to a world that does not have this? Would an alignment system exist? Would there be simple spells that exist that determine alignment? Maybe not. Almost certainly not actually.

Belkar's biggest problem isn't the person he is *today*, but that due to the way alignment works in the world he lives in, his past actions and self will always be there. There's literally a "permanent record" being tracked which says what his alignment is and anyone who's curious can detect that. The conversations with Minrah could very well be about pointing out this discrepancy. She sees him as a good person because that's all he's been since she's met him. But everyone else (and the very universe itself) sees him as "evil". Period. One use of the pendant proves this. But in a world with no way to simply detect this "permanent record" or to judge him by it, he's just "who you are today and every day going forward from today". Nothing else. I could totally see someone like Belkar choosing to stay in such a world if it were possible.

Does this mean it's going to happen? No clue. But it's a possibility that does exist, could work within the rules we know, and actually allows for Belkar's development path to mean something other than "Ok, you die and maybe go to a slightly less horrible afterlife".

[Peelee]

He even specifically made the statements made to Roy about Belkar "official" for him, so he'd take it as truth.

No. He specifically made it "official" to Roy so that Roy would remember it. That's all the light show does, allow the things he says to bypass the memory charm. Roy didn't pass through the memory charm so he remembered everything, which the Oracle didn't think of, but the Oracle explicitly offers to make the prophecy "on the record" because Roy forgot all the times Oracle told Roy Belkar's fate beforehand.

[Mike Havran]

Because the Oracle's power comes from Tiamat, and gods don't know there's anything inside the rifts.The Oracle has explicitly told us that he can look into future when the story will be over and compiled into a book (hence the certainty of Elan's happy ending) so if the mystery of the rifts is going to be revealed at all, the Oracle knows it.

[gbaji]

No. He specifically made it "official" to Roy so that Roy would remember it. That's all the light show does, allow the things he says to bypass the memory charm. Roy didn't pass through the memory charm so he remembered everything, which the Oracle didn't think of, but the Oracle explicitly offers to make the prophecy "on the record" because Roy forgot all the times Oracle told Roy Belkar's fate beforehand.

Correct. Because he tends to ramble and doesn't want people to remember anything other than their actual prophesies. But while that means that he does see the future and does tend to say things about that future which are absolutely true that does not mean that everything he ever says must be true and based on his vision of the future. He's quite capable of just talking with people normally and even lying to them if he want's to.

The only statements we can assume are absolutely true and absolutely based on his vision/sight/whatever is when he gives the "on the record" statements.

[Peelee]

Correct. Because he tends to ramble and doesn't want people to remember anything other than their actual prophesies. But while that means that he does see the future and does tend to say things about that future which are absolutely true that does not mean that everything he ever says must be true and based on his vision of the future. He's quite capable of just talking with people normally and even lying to them if he want's to.

The only statements we can assume are absolutely true and absolutely based on his vision/sight/whatever is when he gives the "on the record" statements.

Nope. Because if his ramblings about the future weren't true, he wouldn't need the whole memory charm to start with. He explicitly says that's why he has it.

If you want to assume the only true prophecies are "on the record," I won't stop you, but I see zero reason to consign myself to such constraints.

[gbaji]

Nope. Because if his ramblings about the future weren't true, he wouldn't need the whole memory charm to start with. He explicitly says that's why he has it.

Correct. But that does not mean that every single thing he ever says is a prophesy and is true.


If you want to assume the only true prophecies are "on the record," I won't stop you, but I see zero reason to consign myself to such constraints.

I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming that there are three categories of "things the Oracle says"..

1. Official "on the record" prophesies. These are things he sees in his vision of the future/whatever and relevant to the question he's being asked (and paid for). They appear in green background and the recipient will remember them after they pass through the memory charm.

2. Random things he says that are also things based on his vision of the future/whatever. These are regular text and will not be remembered when people pass through the memory charm.

3. Random things he says that are *not* based on his vision of the future/whatever. These are also regular text and will not be remembered when people pass through the memory charm.

From the pov of another person, 2 and 3 are impossible to differentiate. They are all just "things he says". And it wouldn't matter except that we, the audience, aren't affected by the memory charm (or are we?). My point is that he does just say things conversationally. He does just engage in dialogue. He's also quite capable of making jokes, lying, etc. I'm not making any assumptions at all about whether any specific thing he says outside of the "on the record" prophesies are actually the result of prophetic vision. We may assume this in some cases for the purpose of discussion (as in this thread with regard to Belkar's fate), but we can't assume that's true of every single thing he's ever said.

IMO, this goes double for what was obviously a fourth wall breaking joke intended only for the reading audience. I'm not saying we must assume the opposite (nothing except green background text is the result of a vison of the future), but that we *also* can't assume that everything he says that's not in green background *is* the result of a vision of the future. We simply can't know that either way.

[Peelee]

Correct. But that does not mean that every single thing he ever says is a prophesy and is true.

And as soon as someone tries to argue that, I'll be sure to let them know. However, when he casually mentions future events in conversation, that is obviously exactly what he is referring to when he talks about the purpose of the memory charm.

[Psyren]

I won't comment on the Belkar stuff, but Kraagor (and indeed all the "destroyed" souls) residing within the rift/Snarl in some way is an interesting idea. I doubt that world inside the rift is completely empty.

[halfeye]

Kraagor (and indeed all the "destroyed" souls) residing within the rift/Snarl in some way is an interesting idea. I doubt that world inside the rift is completely empty.

The planet inside the rift is something odd, peculiar and weird. All of the previous planets have been destroyed, there were billions of them and if they weren't utterly anihilated their mass would be at least a star's worth, and maybe a black hole's worth, which ought to have spectacular effects, effects which we don't see. We have to assume that the previous planets are entirely gone.

[InvisibleBison]

The planet inside the rift is something odd, peculiar and weird. All of the previous planets have been destroyed, there were billions of them and if they weren't utterly anihilated their mass would be at least a star's worth, and maybe a black hole's worth, which ought to have spectacular effects, effects which we don't see. We have to assume that the previous planets are entirely gone.

We don't know how big the space inside the rift is, do we? Maybe there's enough room in there to stash a few billion planets without crowding them so much that they become uninhabitable.

[halfeye]

We don't know how big the space inside the rift is, do we? Maybe there's enough room in there to stash a few billion planets without crowding them so much that they become uninhabitable.

Enough room? The gods make the space, and the planet that sits in it, then the Snarl trashes it all, and the gods build another planet around it. You are suggesting there's a whole blinking galaxy inside the planet.

[InvisibleBison]

Enough room? The gods make the space, and the planet that sits in it, then the Snarl trashes it all, and the gods build another planet around it. You are suggesting there's a whole blinking galaxy inside the planet.

Why not? It's not like the rift leads to the inside of the planet or anything; it opens into a demiplane (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and there's no hard limit on how large those can be.

Admittedly, having re-examined the text I think this theory is probably wrong, since Shojo describes the Snarl's prison as "a tiny demiplane". But absent that adjective, it could be correct.

[brian 333]

Enough room? The gods make the space, and the planet that sits in it, then the Snarl trashes it all, and the gods build another planet around it. You are suggesting there's a whole blinking galaxy inside the planet.

Did you never see Men In Black? Human perceptions of Space and Time are so limited. Plus, awesome watch.

[RatElemental]

I'm going to take a fringe position here: The world in the rift has nothing going on with it. It's a 4 quidity world so the Snarl can't unmake it like it can every other world, all it can do is physically tear it (and all its inhabitants) to pieces which then, through gravity, coalesce back into a planet after eons of time. The Snarl destroys it again in a fit of pique after it unmakes each new world, and it reforms again by the time the gods make the next one. While a world is containing it all of the snarl's efforts are directed at breaking out, hence why the world in the rifts has not been torn apart again yet.

[Psyren]

I'm going to take a fringe position here: The world in the rift has nothing going on with it. It's a 4 quidity world so the Snarl can't unmake it like it can every other world, all it can do is physically tear it (and all its inhabitants) to pieces which then, through gravity, coalesce back into a planet after eons of time. The Snarl destroys it again in a fit of pique after it unmakes each new world, and it reforms again by the time the gods make the next one. While a world is containing it all of the snarl's efforts are directed at breaking out, hence why the world in the rifts has not been torn apart again yet.

That planet could indeed be the first world, as it is indeed the only one out of billions of attempts to be a 4-quiddity world. Or it could be something/someplace completely new.

Other question - the gods don't appear to know about it. Do the IFCC?

[Fyraltari]

That planet could indeed be the first world, as it is indeed the only one out of billions of attempts to be a 4-quiddity world. Or it could be something/someplace completely new.

Other question - the gods don't appear to know about it. Do the IFCC?

Seeing as when Vaarsuvius and Blackwing mention it in the Directors' presence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), not only do they not enquire what they are talking about , they actively prevent them from talking, I would say that not only they know the Word-Within exists, they know more about it than we do. Of course, the rest of the IFCC doesn't know squat, because as Sabine says, they work on a need-to-know basis.

[gbaji]

And as soon as someone tries to argue that, I'll be sure to let them know. However, when he casually mentions future events in conversation, that is obviously exactly what he is referring to when he talks about the purpose of the memory charm.

Ok. But what about fourth wall breaking humor? Cause that's what we're talking about here. He didn't mention future events. He literally spoke about reading the book later when it's published. You aren't actually claiming that the Oracle can also see our futures, are you? He's not actually seeing into our world and seeing things. It's a joke written by the author. Perhaps intentionally to get people to buy the book by promising to have the book contain the translations which aren't present in the online strip.

You're using that to base whether or not the Oracle can see stuff that happens in the rift? I think you're giving the joke too much weight.


As to the world within the rift, we're talking about multi-dimensional space here. Anything is possible. The snarl itself is made up of four quiddity threads of reality. The gods don't actually destroy the snarl, they just destroy the world they built around the snarl to contain it. What the snarl is doing inside its own space is unknown (and possibly unknowable to the gods). He could very well have been sitting there the whole time, building his own worlds inside his "space", maybe destroying them each time, maybe not. It's possible that a copy of the very first original world is still sitting there, completely intact, inside of him/it/whatever. What the gods perceive as "being unmade" could just be the snarl taking bits of reality and pulling them inside an area the gods can't see or affect. Who knows?

Things on the "edge" when rifts form could just a tiny surface irritant to the snarl itself. Deaths caused in the OoTS world could be the equivalent of the snarl's antibodies killing off annoying outside bacteria from a small cut in its skin. Doesn't tell us at all what's actually going on "inside" though. It might very well be entirely unaware of anything "outside" itself and just as confused about why things resting against it (dimensionally anyway) occasionally go away for a while and then return (and once again begin irritating its skin causing sores/rifts to appear and its body to react). And it's also possible that this has no effect at all on the snarl itself and whatever it may have created.

In this much time the snarl could have evolved sentience (benevolence even) and be more than wiling to seal up these rifts from the inside if they promise to seal them also from the outside. Hard to say. I do suspect that the conclusion of the story will involve more than just the party convincing Redcloak to seal the rifts and we all live happily ever after. We do have Chekov's world inside the rift, which suggests that it's going to have some relevance at some point to the story.

[Peelee]

Ok. But what about fourth wall breaking humor? Cause that's what we're talking about here. He didn't mention future events.

At this point, I have no idea what you're talking about here. The oracle says, in the exact same strip that he mentions the purpose of the memory charm - hell, in the exact same friggin' speech balloon as the purpose of the memory charm, that Belkar is not going to reach old age. If you want to think that's empty bluff and bluster, that's your prerogative. You can certainly disregard anything the Oracle is blatantly saying about the future while not in the trance if you want. I will not join you in that.

[Psyren]

Seeing as when Vaarsuvius and Blackwing mention it in the Directors' presence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), not only do they not enquire what they are talking about , they actively prevent them from talking, I would say that not only they know the Word-Within exists, they know more about it than we do. Of course, the rest of the IFCC doesn't know squat, because as Sabine says, they work on a need-to-know basis.

Ah right, been a while since I read that one :smallsmile: and given that Sabine heard them clearly, the IFCC would have as well.

[gbaji]

Notwithstanding that even Tiamat was not aware about the future that the Oracle foretold (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html), no, I do not think it is reasonable to assume that the Oracle would not know about the goings on inside the rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html).

You linked to 330, in which the oracle can understand Haley because he can "... look forward into the future to the point where this particular strip is compiled into a book and just read the translation"

You literally linked to that strip as part of the claim (in the text above) that "I do not think it's reasonable to assume that the Oracle would not know about the goings on inside the rift". I took that to be a reference to the Oracle being able to read the strip later when compiled into a book where there would be translations, and if he could do that, he could read the future strips where the information about what is in the rifts would be.

Was I incorrect in that interpretation of your meaning? There's literally nothing else on that page you linked that would have any bearing on the Oracle being able to know what was inside the rift.

Assuming that's the case (unless you can point to something else in strip 330 that supports your claim), then that is a fourth wall breaking joke

Which is why I've repeatedly dismissed it as a reasonable exploration of how the Oracle's powers of future sight actually work.


At this point, I have no idea what you're talking about here. The oracle says, in the exact same strip that he mentions the purpose of the memory charm - hell, in the exact same friggin' speech balloon as the purpose of the memory charm, that Belkar is not going to reach old age. If you want to think that's empty bluff and bluster, that's your prerogative. You can certainly disregard anything the Oracle is blatantly saying about the future while not in the trance if you want. I will not join you in that.


This is you missing entirely what I've been talking about. I was specifically responding to your statement about the Oracle being able to know what's inside the rift, presumably due to something in strip 330 (you linked to it, not me). I'm not at all talking about what is or is not an "official prophesy" in the first strip you linked. I was responding to your statement about 330, and pointing out the clear fourth wall nature of the joke, meaning that it was not something we should take as a serious determination of what he actually can see about the rifts.

My following point about what has to be true and what may not be being determined by the green background was purely in reference to the absence of green background in the statement the Oracle says to Haley about the translation. We cannot assume he's telling the truth here, or if we're even supposed to take it seriously at all. I was confused as to why you kept going on about how the memory charm worked. That's completely irrelevant to the point. All that matters is that he did not make that statement in green background, so it's not something we should take as "official prophesy", or "true", or (in this case) as anything other than a fourth wall breaking joke. Heck. He mentioned Alex Trebek in that strip too. Are we to also assume that he can see Alex in his sight as well? Or maybe just take that as a joke meant for the audience?

I think the latter. And when we remove that one statement from the Oracle about how he can understand Haley as just a joke, we're left with the very reasonable assumption that the Oracle probably can't see anything inside the rift, and that anything that passes into it (whether it survives or not) appears to the Oracle to simply "stop existing". And that the perception by the Oracle that "Belkar stops existing" at that point meets every single criterial of every single statement he's made about Belkar's fate (both in or out of green background to the degree that we care about that).

That link to that strip is the single linchpin of your entire counter argument, so yeah, that's what I've been talking about this whole time.

Did you mean something else when you linked to 330? Because, again, that's the entire counter you provided to my premise that the Oracle can't see into the rifts. If there's nothing there, then there's no counter. And my argument stands that it's "possible" for both the Oracle's prophesies to be true *and* for Belkar to continue living if he enters the rift, survives, and lives out his life there never to return to the "real world".

[brian 333]

The Oracle's prophecies are both True and Simple. They have not required convoluted logic to come true. In fact, in the only example we have where convoluted chains of logic were given, (Belkar caused the death of Roy, Miko, and Miko's horse,) it turned out that The Oracle was trying to figure out how to avoid its own death prophecy, and failed.

Every one was true. Every one was exactly as foretold. None were subverted in any way.
Of the two options Roy offered, Xykon was nearest to Girard's gate next.
Durkon returned home after his death.
Haley had to accept the gift Elan was offering without looking for the catch.
Vaarsuvius had to accept the deal offered by the fiends to hold the potential, however briefly, to have more arcane power than anyone ever had before.
Belkar had to kill one of the people on his list.
One can presume the Ginkgo Biloba worked, because Blackwing has not been ignored or forgotten by his master since the prophesy.
Elan's prophecy has to wait at least to the end of this book to come true.

If there is anything but the unambiguous cessation of life fortold by The Oracle, it will be a first. Belkar will not breathe again. Undead and other-planar existences allow breath even if it is not required. Belkar will be unable to eat and/or taste again. (Not, 'won't want to,' because if he could, why would it matter?) The Oracle appeared to be gloating about it. Why? If there was any possibility that Belkar, its murderer whom it despised, would find a way to avoid what The Oracle could not, The Oracle would have been far iess willing to gloat over the certainty of his death enough to make the prediction 'official.'

But, hey, if you want to believe there is a way out, then you do you.

My money is on, 'gets unmade by The Snarl and thus never gets an afterlife of any kind, so that he never gets another breath and can never taste birthday cake again.'

[gbaji]

My money is on, 'gets unmade by The Snarl and thus never gets an afterlife of any kind, so that he never gets another breath and can never taste birthday cake again.'

If you believe that to be a possibility then you also have to accept the possibility that Belkar could survive and live out his days on the world in the rift as well. Unless the Oracle can actually see into the rift, he can't tell the difference and his prophesies would be equally valid in both cases.

I'm not placing any particular weight on this actually happening. Just doing a pure logic assessment and coming to a conclusion. It's not opinion. It's fact. If the Oracle can't see into the rift when seeing the future, then the Oracle's prophetic statements match Belkar living in the rift exactly as well as Belkar being unmade by the snarl. Everything else follows logically from there.

I just approached this as a logic puzzle. Is there a way for Belkar to live that meets all of the criteria of the Oracle's prophesies? And yes, there is one (and I believe only one). And this is it. You are free to disagree because you don't think Belkar should live, or it doesn't make for a good story, or maybe it cheapens his character development, but those are all emotion driven "what I like" arguments. I'm not doing that. I'm simply presenting a logically sound argument. Nothing more.

[brian 333]

If you believe that to be a possibility then you also have to accept the possibility that Belkar could survive and live out his days on the world in the rift as well. Unless the Oracle can actually see into the rift, he can't tell the difference and his prophesies would be equally valid in both cases.

I'm not placing any particular weight on this actually happening. Just doing a pure logic assessment and coming to a conclusion. It's not opinion. It's fact. If the Oracle can't see into the rift when seeing the future, then the Oracle's prophetic statements match Belkar living in the rift exactly as well as Belkar being unmade by the snarl. Everything else follows logically from there.

I just approached this as a logic puzzle. Is there a way for Belkar to live that meets all of the criteria of the Oracle's prophesies? And yes, there is one (and I believe only one). And this is it. You are free to disagree because you don't think Belkar should live, or it doesn't make for a good story, or maybe it cheapens his character development, but those are all emotion driven "what I like" arguments. I'm not doing that. I'm simply presenting a logically sound argument. Nothing more.

Your logic does not follow from anything I said.

What is there to indicate that The Oracle cannot see into the world in the rift? Has anyone asked it for a prediction about the world in the rift?

You have supposed a thing to be true, (Belkar survives,) then concocted a scheme with no supporting evidence to make it so. You then use that lack of supporting evidence as evidence because it has not been refuted in comic.

Okay, so, let's look at some evidence.

The Oracle states that Belkar will draw his last breath. If he dies in this world The Oracle does not need to see into the rift to know that.

Every prediction made by The Oracle has come true, exactly as it was predicted. Any future in which Belkar could savor his birthday cake in the following year after this one invalidates the prediction.

Your theory requires The Oracle to make an 'official' prediction when it cannot see the conclusion of that prediction. Aside from Haley's aphasia and The Oracle claiming to have read comics published in the future, (a long-standing joke from reading the script back when the Beholder was ruled IP of the wizards and called back when they were in Tinkertown,) you have dismissed The Oracle's ability to read as yet unpublished comics. Elan's happy ending was predicted, which presumably cannot happen until the comic's end. Whatever the source of The Oracle's knowledge, it has been proven to have a perfect score. Whether it can see into The Rift or not, it would not have predicted Belkar's death if it did not know Belkar would stay dead.

My own guess about Belkar's end is based on a parallel with The Order of the Scribble. I guess he will die in the way Kraagor died, fighting The Snarl. I am ready to admit I could be wrong. I probably am. It's fun to guess what happens next.

Your guess about Belkar is what I predicted for Elan's happy ending. Having a whole new world to explore, exciting new stories to tell, and new friends and monsters to fight and party with would be a happy ending.

Why would The Oracle gloat about that kind of fate for Belkar?

"I predict that you will transition to a new world where you will have a second lifetime of swilling beer, casual sexual encounters, and unlimited monsters and other things to kill, and [horror!]you will be the highest level character in the entire world![/horror!]

Yeah. The Oracle would have been gloating over that.

[gbaji]

Your logic does not follow from anything I said.

Correct. Because my logic is derived solely from reading the strip. It's not based on anyone's opinions.

Well. I'm taking a shortcut by lumping a series of logical steps into one by saying "And if we take brian 333's logic involving the possibility for Belkar to be destroyed by the snarl meeting the prophetic requirements to be true" instead of several steps that I would have to make generating the full sequence myself.

And. BTW. I've already done that. My logic also agrees that being destroyed by the snarl meets the requirements. So that's good confirmation.


What is there to indicate that The Oracle cannot see into the world in the rift? Has anyone asked it for a prediction about the world in the rift?

Irrelevant. The logic is of a very basic "if/then" format:

If: The Oracle's prophetic vision can't see into the rift

Then: The Oracle's vision of Belkar's future is the same if "Belkar enters the rift and survives" versus "Belkar enters the rift and is unmade".

We just add the surrounding, already agreed upon logic:

Given: We both agree that if "Belkar enters the rift and is unmade" it matches the Oracle's prophesies (correct,right?)

Given (now): The Oracle's vision of Belkar's future is the same if "Belkar enters the rift and survives" versus "enters the rift and is unmade".

Therefore: If "Belkar enters the rift and survives" it matches the Oracle's prophesies.


Once we accept that first "If" premise, everything else is extremely simple word substitution logic.

Can we at least agree on this, so I don't have to keep looping back around to prove it again and again?


And to answer your question directly: I don't have to prove it's true. It remains a valid possibility as long as no one has proven the condition false. And, to my knowledge, no one has done that. The fact that we are not aware of anyone asking for a prophesy about the world in the rift *supports* my position. You have the operation backwards. I don't have to prove it's true. I'm just presenting a possibility, right? I'm not at all saying "I think this will happen". I'm just saying "This is a possible way for Belkar to live without violating the Oracle's prophesies". That's all.


You have supposed a thing to be true, (Belkar survives,) then concocted a scheme with no supporting evidence to make it so. You then use that lack of supporting evidence as evidence because it has not been refuted in comic.

Do you understand how logic works? Again. I don't have to prove that "Belkar survives in the rift" is true. I only have to prove that *if* it is true, then it matches the prophesies. That's literally all I am saying. We can debate whether Belkar can survive, will survive, or whether it's even possible for anyone to survive at all (although the existence of a thread speculating that Kraagor may be alive in the rift certainly allows us to explore the possibility, right?)


Okay, so, let's look at some evidence.

The Oracle states that Belkar will draw his last breath. If he dies in this world The Oracle does not need to see into the rift to know that.

You're going backwards, but yes, that is true.


Every prediction made by The Oracle has come true, exactly as it was predicted. Any future in which Belkar could savor his birthday cake in the following year after this one invalidates the prediction.

Correct. Let me add slightly to your statement though: "Any future the Oracle can perceive in which Belkar could savor his birthday cake in the following year after this one invalidates the prediction"

Got it? That's the premise that I'm examining.


Your theory requires The Oracle to make an 'official' prediction when it cannot see the conclusion of that prediction.

No. My theory (hypothesis is more accurate, maybe "speculation", but whatever) requires only that the Oracle's statements are true statements based on what the Oracle can perceive (which I think is reasonable to assume). You're injecting unnecessary words like "conclusion" into the conversation. That's muddled thinking. All that matters is this: What did the Oracle say? Is what he said "true" if Belkar disappears from this world and lives the rest of his live entirely in a world the Oracle can't perceive?


Aside from Haley's aphasia and The Oracle claiming to have read comics published in the future, (a long-standing joke from reading the script back when the Beholder was ruled IP of the wizards and called back when they were in Tinkertown,) you have dismissed The Oracle's ability to read as yet unpublished comics. Elan's happy ending was predicted, which presumably cannot happen until the comic's end. Whatever the source of The Oracle's knowledge, it has been proven to have a perfect score.

Sure. We're establishing as a given that the Oracle's prophesies are always true. And yeah, I'm dismissing his statements about reading the future book to be released as a joke. None of this really touches on the core logic I'm following, but I guess it doesn't hurt to rehash such things (as long as you don't get lost in the weeds along the way).


Whether it can see into The Rift or not, it would not have predicted Belkar's death if it did not know Belkar would stay dead.

He didn't predict Belkar's death. See. This is where you veer off course. He literally never ever said "Belkar will die". If he did, you would be correct. But it's not, so you are not. He literally said:

1. The halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA.

2. I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake.

3. (in green background) Belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year.

Nowhere in there does he ever say either directly or indirectly that he saw a future where Belkar died. You are just assuming that. Again. His prophesies are always literally true. And they are quite straightforward. You can only read what is actually said, nothing more.


My own guess about Belkar's end is based on a parallel with The Order of the Scribble. I guess he will die in the way Kraagor died, fighting The Snarl. I am ready to admit I could be wrong. I probably am. It's fun to guess what happens next.

Your guess about Belkar is what I predicted for Elan's happy ending. Having a whole new world to explore, exciting new stories to tell, and new friends and monsters to fight and party with would be a happy ending.

Why would The Oracle gloat about that kind of fate for Belkar?

This is all "what I want to see" stuff. It's not assessing "what could be", which is what I'm doing.

I'm making exactly one assumption in my logic chain: that the Oracle's prophetic vision can't see into the rift. That's it (ok. And the possibility that someone could enter the rift and survive, but that's what's being discussed in this thread). That's also something we don't know is true or not. There's no confirmation. But we also haven't seen anything to prove that he *can* see into the rift prophetically. We literally don't know.

Logic does not require that we know everything that is true. it only requires that we establish relationships between things. If "X is true, then Y is true" is a logical statement. It does not require X to actually be true. it just tells what happens if it is.

Same deal here. If my assumption is true, then the Oracle's prophesies are consistent with a future in which Belkar survives and spends the rest of his life on the world in the rift. Simple. And absolutely sound logic.


"I predict that you will transition to a new world where you will have a second lifetime of swilling beer, casual sexual encounters, and unlimited monsters and other things to kill, and [horror!]you will be the highest level character in the entire world![/horror!]

Yeah. The Oracle would have been gloating over that.

Except that assumes the opposite of my starting assumption. The Oracle would have to be able to see into the rift to make that prediction, right? If he can't, then he literally doesn't know that Belkar survives in this new world and can't possibly make that prediction. He would think that Belkar was unmade by the snarl because from his point of view, Belkar simply ceases to exist the moment he enters.

And that would be gloatworthy. Wrong. But gloatworthy.

[brian 333]

Logic fails at the first if/then statement. You presume a thing not evident in the comic or anywhere else, then use it as the basis of your following statements. That is not logic, that is fanfiction.

From what do you draw the conclusion that The Oracle cannot see into the rift? There is no evidence of this, and absence of evidence is not evidence. By that 'logic' I can conclude that Elan's farts make green gas clouds, and use that as evidence that Elan has never farted.

I never made the claim, nor have I implied Belkar will enter a rift. My statement is that Belkar will be destroyed by The Snarl. I reject any other explanation for my opinion. Being destroyed in the Stickworld is not the same as, or even similar to, entering a rift and surviving. Any 'logic' that follows from a misrepresentation of my guess is flawed.

I understand logic very well. Math is my best subject. Here's a tidbit for your speculative pleasure: when the premise of your argument is, "I only have to prove it is not already disproven," you are not using logic. We're back to green fart clouds. I know Elan's farts make green clouds, now prove me wrong.

My position on the subject of what The Oracle can perceive is quite clear: it can perceive anything The Author wishes, and so far, by the text written by The Author, that includes the final printing of the books. Feel free to dismiss that if you wish. You cannot prove the statement untrue. By your logic, that makes it true. Possible. Maybe.

If Belkar can breathe, the prophecy is voided. Where he breaths, how he breathes, or whether breath is necessary is not relevant to the prophecy. Being in a living state without breathing is by all we know an impossibility. This, Belkar will die. Further, he will not be in any condition which allows him to draw breath, so no corporeal undeath either. Even undead can choose to breathe, as Durkula's first breath demonstrated. Banshees scream, ghosts moan. Even Xykon, whose lungs have been removed, has been known to sigh from time to time. So, in what condition can Belkar continue to exist without the possibility of drawing breath? The Oracle was quite certain, and quite explicit, in its statement, last breath ever. (Not last breath I can see.)

Logic depends upon demonstrable truths. If x then y requires that x be a true statement or a falsifiable one that proves y equally untrue. Back to green farts: not being able to disprove that Elan's farts are green does not demonstrate any likelihood that they could, might, maybe be.

My assertion does not require that The Oracle can or cannot see into the rift. My assertion is that The Oracle can see that at some point before the end of the year Belkar stops breathing and never resumes it. However, if at some future time The OotS does enter a rift, I find it extremely likely that The Oracle will be able to see that. You reject my basis for that claim because what happens in comic somehow doesn't matter if it's funny. (Still trying to follow that 'logic' but it's not easy.

This may help: you have a nice, cute, fanfic. Nothing so far says it's impossible, except those things that obviously refute it, so let's dismiss those. It's still a cute fanfic.

Nothing wrong with that. I have been saying Elan and Haley will go to the world in the rift since I first saw it, as the conclusion, (happy ending,) of the story. Now, if it comes true, great. But let's not pretend there is a shred of real evidence for this ending.

Logic based on fantasy is not logic. Your premise is not based in logic. Attempting to use logic, however flawed, does not demonstrate its validity. Presenting an unprovable assertion is great for fiction, but any attempt to use logic to support it is the same as Elan's green fart clouds. You can't prove he doesn't is not proof that he does or could. In fact, it is evidence of nothing at all, and therefore logic fails before it can even be invoked.

[Wannes]

Given: We both agree that if "Belkar enters the rift and is unmade" it matches the Oracle's prophesies (correct,right?)

Given (now): The Oracle's vision of Belkar's future is the same if "Belkar enters the rift and survives" versus "enters the rift and is unmade".

Therefore: If "Belkar enters the rift and survives" it matches the Oracle's prophesies.



Not automatically. Only if he enters it in such a way that it seems he is unmade.
If he enters the rift and is unmade inside it, but the Oracle can't see inside the Rift, then he will only see him disappear and then know nothing any more. Which will not make the Oracle conclude that Belkar stops breathing and can't enjoy his birthday cake any more, just that he is gone/beyond his sight.
If Belkar enters the rift and the Oracle can se that he seems to be unmade (but really isn't) then the Oracle can see inside the rift and there is no real reason to think he can only see so far into it but not far enough to see Belkar survive.
If the Oracle can't see inside the Rift, then the unmaking will have to happen outside the rift.
If Belkar survives inside after seemingly being unmade, but someone outside knows and/or mentions it, then the Oracle could know too.
Even if they don't know he survives, but somehow they would find out Kraagor survives and/or survived, then they can surmise Belkar may have survived too and the Oracle can't be sure.
Only if the Oracle can't see inside the Rift, he can see Belkar seemingly being unmade outside it and nobody knows that he and/or Kraagor have survived, will the Oracle be right to think.
But as he can also see through the fourth wall, or so it seems, even we cannot know or he could likely know it through us. But if even we don't know, how can we conclude then that he DID survive?

[halfeye]

I understand logic very well. Math is my best subject.

I mosty agree with the rest of your post, but Logic is not a subject in Maths (except Boolean logic, which came later).

[brian 333]

I mosty agree with the rest of your post, but Logic is not a subject in Maths (except Boolean logic, which came later).

If a+b=c then c-a=b and c-b=a

Number lines, sets, algebra: all logic.

[halfeye]

If a+b=c then c-a=b and c-b=a

Number lines, sets, algebra: all logic.

My point is that Logic as a discipline, is a subject in Philosophy. Getting a quorum of philosophy students so a course could run was a different matter, unfortunately.

[RatElemental]

Logic depends upon demonstrable truths. If x then y requires that x be a true statement or a falsifiable one that proves y equally untrue.

Minor quibble but this isn't actually true. Showing x to be false and therefore concluding that y is false is a fallacy known as Denying the Antecedent. Modus Ponens shows y to be true because x is true, and Modus Tollens shows x to be false because y is false. Only in cases where x and y are materially equivilent in addition to having an if x then y relationship (IE, you can derive both an if x then y, and if y then x statement from them) does x being false mean y is false.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The Oracle arguement has a number of problems, but let's go for the main ones:


None of the Oracle's predictions (on or off the record) have been shown to be false. There's a handful that haven't been fulfilled yet - the score is something like 15 Fullfilled or Correct, 5 Pending, 2 of unknown provinance, and all the fulfilled ones have had straightforward resolutions.
The Oracle has not been shown to lie in comic. There's a handful of statements that are debateable, but there are no definate lies.
The Oracle has referred to looking forward in time to when the comic is published to read the translations of Haley's cryptograms (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html). Thus, if Belkar's end appears in comic the Oracle could see it in detail, even if it happens in the rift and the Oracle cannot directly see into the rift. And let's face it, the Oracle would have looked to see if Belkar gets his comeuppance.
The whole point of the Oracle is foreshadowing. The Oracle lying would defeat his purpose in the story from both a Watsonian and Doyalist point of view.


Yes, it is always remotely possible that The Giant has something else in mind, but I think it highly unlikely that Belkar's foretold death will be anything other than death.

[brian 333]

Minor quibble but this isn't actually true. Showing x to be false and therefore concluding that y is false is a fallacy known as Denying the Antecedent. Modus Ponens shows y to be true because x is true, and Modus Tollens shows x to be false because y is false. Only in cases where x and y are materially equivilent in addition to having an if x then y relationship (IE, you can derive both an if x then y, and if y then x statement from them) does x being false mean y is false.

Your quibble involved x and y being inappropriately declared equal when they are not. If x is not equal to y, the falsification of x does not falsify y.

If x any y are actually equal and either is false, then both are false.

[RatElemental]

Your quibble involved x and y being inappropriately declared equal when they are not. If x is not equal to y, the falsification of x does not falsify y.

If x any y are actually equal and either is false, then both are false.

This isn't about equal or not. The statement "If X then Y" is a logic thing, not a math thing. It is often written as X ⇒ Y or X ⊃ Y. In logic (unless you're using trinary logic, or fuzzy logic, or some other one I'm not aware of) things can only be either true of false. X ⊃ Y means that if X is true then Y is true, but X being false tells us nothing about whether Y is true (similarly, Y being true tells us nothing about X, but Y being false means X must be false).

In other words, X is a sufficient condition for Y being true, but not necessarily a necessary one. For example take this statement: If it is raining, the ground will be wet. Now let's assume that it isn't raining. We don't know whether or not the ground is wet, because a water tower may have collapsed, or someone may be spraying a hose, or that particular bit of ground may be at the bottom of a lake.

[Metastachydium]

T(unless you're using trinary logic, or fuzzy logic, or some other one I'm not aware of)

How about modal logic?

[brian 333]

This isn't about equal or not. The statement "If X then Y" is a logic thing, not a math thing. It is often written as X ⇒ Y or X ⊃ Y. In logic (unless you're using trinary logic, or fuzzy logic, or some other one I'm not aware of) things can only be either true of false. X ⊃ Y means that if X is true then Y is true, but X being false tells us nothing about whether Y is true (similarly, Y being true tells us nothing about X, but Y being false means X must be false).

In other words, X is a sufficient condition for Y being true, but not necessarily a necessary one. For example take this statement: If it is raining, the ground will be wet. Now let's assume that it isn't raining. We don't know whether or not the ground is wet, because a water tower may have collapsed, or someone may be spraying a hose, or that particular bit of ground may be at the bottom of a lake.

Interesting, true, and not what I said at all.

If x=y, and x is untrue, y is also untrue. Works in logic or math. If x is not equal to y, then whether x is true or not says nothing about the condition of y.

[Sir_Norbert]

Yes, it is what you said:


Logic depends upon demonstrable truths. If x then y requires that x be a true statement or a falsifiable one that proves y equally untrue. Back to green farts: not being able to disprove that Elan's farts are green does not demonstrate any likelihood that they could, might, maybe be.

You were discussing the statement "If x then y", not the statement "x = y". Right there.

[brian 333]

Yes, it is what you said:



You were discussing the statement "If x then y", not the statement "x = y". Right there.

My mistake was way back there. I really should read what I write.

Anyway, a result derived from a false premise is false. That was my point.

[Fyraltari]

Anyway, a result derived from a false premise is false. That was my point.

No, that's not true. A result derived from a false premise may be false, but it may be true as well, we just can't tell.

Example, riffing on the famous "all men are mortals": If Bob is a man then Bob is mortal.

Turns out Bob is a cat (not a man) therefore the premise "Bob is a man" is false, yet the result "Bob is mortal" is true.

[RatElemental]

My mistake was way back there. I really should read what I write.

Anyway, a result derived from a false premise is false. That was my point.

Again, not necessarily, it just means you can't conclude anything based on the premise. Consider:

Only men are immortal.
Socrates is not a man.

Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Two false premises that lead to a true conclusion, but if literally all you had was the premises you couldn't tell if the conclusion is true or false.

[brian 333]

Again, not necessarily, it just means you can't conclude anything based on the premise. Consider:

Only men are immortal.
Socrates is not a man.

Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Two false premises that lead to a true conclusion, but if literally all you had was the premises you couldn't tell if the conclusion is true or false.

You are saying three things. I am saying two.

X) only men are immortal
Y) Socrates is mortal.

You are saying if x and y then z.
I am saying if x is y, them both are true or both are false.

[Fyraltari]

You are saying three things. I am saying two.

X) only men are immortal
Y) Socrates is mortal.

You are saying if x and y then z.
I am saying if x is y, them both are true or both are false.

What about the example I gave?

[gbaji]

Logic fails at the first if/then statement. You presume a thing not evident in the comic or anywhere else, then use it as the basis of your following statements. That is not logic, that is fanfiction.

That's not how logic works. Logic doesn't tell us what is true or false, it tells us the relationships between things. The point of logic is to allow us to distill discussions, or decision making, down to just the things that actually matter, by simplifying the broad thought process. So instead of having a zillion different elements to consider, we just accept sets as true or false and then move on, knowing that later, when we have an actual case before us, we don't have to refigure everything out.

Or, in this case, we can simply say: If this is true, then... <stuff>. We don't need to determine if that's true or not, but we can determine what happens if it is. And in this case, I'm exploring what happens with regard to the prophesies if my premise is true. That allows us to simplify the discussion away from endlessly discussing details we all agree on (like "the Oracle is always right!") and down to just the thing being examined.


From what do you draw the conclusion that The Oracle cannot see into the rift? There is no evidence of this, and absence of evidence is not evidence. By that 'logic' I can conclude that Elan's farts make green gas clouds, and use that as evidence that Elan has never farted.

We can examine the probability that the Oracle can't see into the rift later. Can we first accept that *if* he can't. then Belkar could enter the rift, survive and live out his life there, and all the prophesies would be true?


I never made the claim, nor have I implied Belkar will enter a rift. My statement is that Belkar will be destroyed by The Snarl. I reject any other explanation for my opinion. Being destroyed in the Stickworld is not the same as, or even similar to, entering a rift and surviving. Any 'logic' that follows from a misrepresentation of my guess is flawed.

Again. You are getting caught up on making predictions and saying what you think is going to happen and arguing those things. That's not what I'm doing. I'm just asking the question: Is it possible for Belkar to somehow survive and live out his life while still meeting the criteria of the Oracle's prophesies? That's it. If there is a single way that this can happen, via means that *could* be true (ie: anything that hasn't been absolutely proven to be untrue), then the answer is "yes".

That's all I'm saying. I don't have to prove this is true. I only have to show that it hasn't (yet) been proven to be untrue. Which I believe I have done.


I understand logic very well. Math is my best subject. Here's a tidbit for your speculative pleasure: when the premise of your argument is, "I only have to prove it is not already disproven," you are not using logic. We're back to green fart clouds. I know Elan's farts make green clouds, now prove me wrong.

I don't think your understanding of logic is as good as you think it is. I'm actually struggling to respond to what you just wrote because virtually every single thing about this sentence: when the premise of your argument is, "I only have to prove it is not already disproven," you are not using logic. is wrong. First, that's not a premise. Second, the statement you paraphrased *is* actually how logic works (examining cases for anything not yet disproven). No one who actually understands logic would ever write that sentence.

Your whole fart cloud thing is a common mistake in which people assume that premises must be proved before they can be used. A premise is just that: A statement that we are "presuming" to be true just for the purpose of examining what happens if that is the case. Nothing more. Trying to argue against the logic because "You haven't proven your premise" is an utter misunderstanding of logic.

If I say something like: "If you fall off that cliff you're going to be seriously injured", I don't have to first prove that you just fell off the cliff. I only have to show the relationship between falling off a cliff and serious injury. That's it. Don't over think things.



If Belkar can breathe, the prophecy is voided. Where he breaths, how he breathes, or whether breath is necessary is not relevant to the prophecy. Being in a living state without breathing is by all we know an impossibility. This, Belkar will die. Further, he will not be in any condition which allows him to draw breath, so no corporeal undeath either. Even undead can choose to breathe, as Durkula's first breath demonstrated. Banshees scream, ghosts moan. Even Xykon, whose lungs have been removed, has been known to sigh from time to time. So, in what condition can Belkar continue to exist without the possibility of drawing breath? The Oracle was quite certain, and quite explicit, in its statement, last breath ever. (Not last breath I can see.)

Again. This is only if the Oracle's prophetic vision can perceive Belkar breathing. If not, then as far as the Oracle can tell, Belkar has "drawn his last breath", the moment Belkar disappears.



My assertion does not require that The Oracle can or cannot see into the rift. My assertion is that The Oracle can see that at some point before the end of the year Belkar stops breathing and never resumes it. However, if at some future time The OotS does enter a rift, I find it extremely likely that The Oracle will be able to see that. You reject my basis for that claim because what happens in comic somehow doesn't matter if it's funny. (Still trying to follow that 'logic' but it's not easy.

And now you're mixing the wording around. Let me repeat (again) what the Oracle actually said:

Belkar will draw his last breath -ever- before the end of the year.

The Oracle did not say "Belkar will stop breathing". We cannot assume from the prophesy that the Oracle actually sees Belkar stop breathing (but otherwise is still there, now not breathing which is what you seem to be assuming). You are re-stating the words to fit your argument rather than shaping your argument around the words. All the Oracle says is that Belkar will "draw his last breath". That just means that the Oracle's prophetic vision never sees Belkar take another breath after that one. That's it. That's literally all that means.

You may think that's quibbling, but it's a very critical difference in the interpretation. Seeing Belkar "stop breathing" is very very different from seeing Belkar's "last breath". One sees the cessation of breathing (Belkar is there to breathe, but doesn't). The other only sees the "last breath" but not what happened after that last breath is successfully taken (we know nothing about what happens because the prophesy doesn't actually say).



Not automatically. Only if he enters it in such a way that it seems he is unmade.
If he enters the rift and is unmade inside it, but the Oracle can't see inside the Rift, then he will only see him disappear and then know nothing any more. Which will not make the Oracle conclude that Belkar stops breathing and can't enjoy his birthday cake any more, just that he is gone/beyond his sight.

Again with the "stop breathing" nonsense. Read the actual words in the prophesy.

If Belkar enters the rift and disappears, never to again be seen by the Oracle's future vision, then Belkar has "drawn his last breath -ever-". Get it? You literally said it: "he will only see him disappear and then know nothing any more". So if Belkar breathes past that "last breath" before entering the rift, the Oracle will not know it.



If Belkar enters the rift and the Oracle can se that he seems to be unmade (but really isn't) then the Oracle can see inside the rift and there is no real reason to think he can only see so far into it but not far enough to see Belkar survive.
If the Oracle can't see inside the Rift, then the unmaking will have to happen outside the rift.

I think you're getting caught up on the Oracle seeing Belkar being "umade" as that being identical to "living on in the rift" (or something? I'm not sure).

That's all irrelevant to what I'm saying. I'm simply saying that Belkar enters the rift and the Oracle no longer sees him. Period. What happens to Belkar after that point is irrelevant from the Oracle's perspective because he can't see it. That's what I meant earlier when I said that Belkar being unmade and Belkar living out the rest of his life on the world inside the rift would appear the same to the Oracle. I'm not assuming that the Oracle can see both cases and that for some reason they look the same to them. I'm saying that the Oracle wont be able to see which happens.

Why would the unmaking have to happen outside the rift? What case are you trying to prove? In my case, I'm assuming the opposite, since that makes it actually work, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.



If Belkar survives inside after seemingly being unmade, but someone outside knows and/or mentions it, then the Oracle could know too.
Even if they don't know he survives, but somehow they would find out Kraagor survives and/or survived, then they can surmise Belkar may have survived too and the Oracle can't be sure.
Only if the Oracle can't see inside the Rift, he can see Belkar seemingly being unmade outside it and nobody knows that he and/or Kraagor have survived, will the Oracle be right to think.
But as he can also see through the fourth wall, or so it seems, even we cannot know or he could likely know it through us. But if even we don't know, how can we conclude then that he DID survive?

Yeah. We don't know enough about how the rifts work, or the snarl works, or how the Oracle's prophesies actually work to be able to put any of those into anything more than "if" categories.

I'm going with (and this is just an opinion here) the Oracle is granted some sort of "gift of future sight". Assuming he can't just always see everything that will ever happen anywhere (cause that would be a bit much for a mortal mind to handle), we might assume instead that when he sees someone, he can see their future as an automatic thing (hence why he sometimes "rambles" and slips info he perhaps shouldn't). Additionally, we can maybe assume that if asked a question, he can search the whole of reality/future/whatever for just the correct answer. Maybe. Either that, or he's a paradox machine who is just seeing people's futures (including his own), and that even when that future is influenced by his prophesies, they work. So he's able to tell Roy where Xykon is by reading Roy's future and seeing that Roy goes to Redmountain Hills and finds Xykon. Never mind that Roy only went there because the Oracle told him... and paradox. Er. But that's also somewhat a standard for Oracles anyway, so maybe...

Dunno. In either case, I'm assuming the Oracle just sees what he sees. If his future vision of Belkar just "stops" with Belkar entering a rift, then that's all he sees. Now, maybe he also sees someone else having a conversation in the future about Belkar living on in the rift. But if he can't actually see Belkar doing it, does he know it's true? Or does he have to discount it? Does it "count" as an official prophesy? I don't know. But that's the point, we don't know. And until we have definitive information one way or another, that leaves a whole lot of possibilities open, including the premise I'm exploring.