Baldur's Gate II and 2nd ed AD&D

[waffletaco]

Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone had any tips for me when playing Baldur's Gate II. More importantly, tips on 2nd ed AD&D. I taught myself 3.5 but this AD&D thing is weird and complicated.

A couple of questions to start
Armor class is still armor class right? or is the lower the number the better AC you have in 2e AD&D? A lower THAC0 is better right?

What is Dual-classing? Is it safe to do in Baldur's Gate II?

I'm using the Kensai fighter kit and I was wondering how to make the most out of it.
Oh also, what is the number after my strength? My guy has 18/70

[Nerd-o-rama]

1) Lower AC is better.
2) Lower THAC0 is better.
3) Dual classing is way too complicated to explain. Try reading the manual, it has a fairly thorough explanation.
4) Dual-Wield magic swords, cast Kai, and attack the biggest monster. You're pretty much set. Oh, and find the amulet that lets you cast Shield on yourself, since you will have poor AC. If you figure out how to dual-class, dual-class to Mage when you hit level 7 or 9 or so. A competently-played Kensai-Mage is practically unbeatable.
5) The number after your strength is "exceptional strength" rated from 01 to 00 (or rather, 100). It's a percentile dice roll that only "warrior" classes get that gives significant bonuses over just an 18. 18/70 is pretty damn good.

[Grey Watcher]

For both THAC0 and Armor Class, yes, LOWER numbers are BETTER. I used to know the math behind calculating hits, but I've forgotten the details.

Dual-classing is (essentially) the precursor to mutliclassing. Generally, I'd say it's not the best idea if you're unsure of what you're doing, as it means you'll have to spend a significant amount of time as a crippled character before you get the payoff (which is only worth it if you made the right choices when dual-classing).

This paragraph will be my attempt to explain dual-classing. Feel free to skip it if you've decided against it. Basically, when you dual-class, you start your character over. You'll loose all of your current class features, weapon proficiencies, and whatever else you're entitled to except hit points (you get to keep those, at least). You will then start out as a level 1 character in your new class (let's say, you decided to dual-class into Mage). Only when you're new class (mage) has more levels than your old class (kensai) do your old class features come back. You can never advance the old class (kensai) again, but it can still be useful, as it often gives you more options than a single classed character has. That said, because there's not going back to advancing your old class, it is a HUGE step, and you'll have to do without the kensai class features for a while (which can be a problem).

In 2nd edition characters from one of the martial classes with a Strength of 18 had an "exceptional strength score" (I think that's what it was called). Basically, it's a way of creating scores in between 18 and 19. 18/70 is very good score, considering the maximum is 100 (which the game represents as 18/00).

[Glyphic]

Yes, Ac is still AC. The lower this number, the better. AC 10 is the base, and dexterity will affect it as normal. I believe the best AC you can get in BG is -15 or so. Yes, negative.

"THAC0" is 'to hit ac zero'. used to be, you'd take your THAC0 and subtract your modified die roll. Say you rolled a (mod)19 and had a 17 thac0. 17-19 = -2. You'd hit ac -2.

Dual classing is what humans do. They advance to a certain point, say, level 7, and then decide to start over. They Keep their rolled HP, but lose all other class features. And then they take a new class. Until they surpass the old class in BOTH level and EXP points, they act in all regards, as their new class. Then, after they pass those exp limits, they can use both classes, although they may NEVER advance in the original class again. Level draining affects the highest class first. You must have exceptional stats in BOTH classes you plan to take (16+ in primary, 17+ in secondary) to be able to multi class. It's a viable option, but can leave you weaker, but a little more versatile. some classes (like bards, rangers, paladins) simply can't dual class.

Demi-humans (Dwarfs, halfings, ect), Multi class. they take two or three classes, and advance between them all equally. Their experience is cut in half or thirds. This can only be done when the character is created, and they can use any class feature.


Edit: BG2 has ALOT of mods made for it. make sure to grab the patch from Bioware or whomever made it, and play the game. Add mods after for repayability. The patch is VERY important. It get's rid of a "X is too busy to initiate dialog bug" and makes it so drow scimitars don't one shot bards :smalltongue:

[Matthew]

Converting THAC0 to 3e AB
[(20 - THAC0) = AB]

i.e. THAC0 20 = AB 0, THAC0 19 = AB 1, THAC0 18 = AB 2, etc...


Converting 2e Armour Class to 3e Armour Class
[(20 - 2e AC) = 3e AC]

i.e. 2e AC 10 = 3e AC 10, 2e AC 9 = 3e AC 11, 2e AC 8 = 3e AC 12, etc...

It ain't rocket science.

[Kantur]

I'd try and help explain it, but this guide taught me and says it all so much better than I possibly could:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/258273/8566

[Mr. Friendly]

From my own experience with Baldur's Gate 2:

Dual Classing is pointless in BG. (At least for melee characters)
I wanna say my Fighter was a Berzerker, of course I used a two-handed sword. Most people say Kensai is the best - I don't think it matters, I killed everything without breaking a sweat. (Chaotic Evil Fighter)
My character had 18/95 to start. I wouldn't sweat it though.. they ended the game with, I wanna say a 19 or a 20 STR. (It's been a while)

Whether you are good or evil.... take Edwin if you can! I find his dialogue to be some of the funniest in the game.

[bugsysservant]

If I recall BGII correctly, one way to boost a Kensai is to dual class into mage, because neither uses armor and the XP loss from Kensai isn't much if you go through the entire game thoroughly. Though if you didn't plant to do that you probably don't have the intelligence for it. But I personally prefer straight Kensai. The first game I beat both SoA and the expansion (Throne of Bhaal, do you have it?) I used a straight Kensai.

[Sir Enigma]

Another dual-class I liked was seven levels of Fighter and then into Cleric, this gives a cleric who isn't really much behind the party, but who has a much better melee competency - if you've got 2 or more proficiency points in a weapon, you get two attacks a round at level 7, plus you can become a grand master of your weapon.

Also, on exceptional strength, it does go from 1-100, but it's split into categories: 18/01-18/50, 18/50-18/75, 18/76-18/90, 18/91-18/99, and 18/00. All the scores within a category act as if they're the same strength score, so it's very nonlinear - 18/70 isn't as high as it sounds.

[Crow]

Do that dual class immediately as you start the game and you can get your class features back shortly after the first dungeon. Or if you go with a lite party like I do, before you leave it.

I would recommend doing the Fighter to Mage or Cleric Route. Kensai just isn't worth it due to the bracers and body slot prohibition.

I am also going to take the opportunity to recommend Icewing Gate. It is a full conversion of Baldur's Gate II, ported to run under Icewind Dale II. This means you get to run BGII with the 3rd Edition rules. I highly recommend it.

Sadly I cannot provide a link because websense doesn't allow me to go to the site. Google "Icewind Gate" and you will find it.

[NotMe]

Due to the way that dual classing and the experience system works (you loose class features for a while, but each level of a class costs more than the previous level), dual classing makes you weaker in the short term but can provide more power in the long run.

Having a 6 or so levels of fighter and then dual classing (or most things) will give you good starting hitpoints, weapon proficiencies and attack bonus, and allow specialization. By the time your new class level is in double figures you'll barely notice the XP spent on fighter, and you'll have all your class features for use by early on in Chapter 2 of the game.

Remember that (in Baldurs Gate) any dual class comination must be a legal multiclass combination and that you can only have a single class kit.

[Corlis]

I also recommend Baldurdash (http://www.baldurdash.org/), which has a load of fixes for the game that Bioware never did.

[Doresain]

IMO the best (good-aligned)party consists of:

Main Dude
Imoen
Minsc
Nalia
Keldorn
Anomen

if you get the expansion, drop either Minsc or Keldorn for Sarevok...doesnt matter whether youre making a good party or evil party, Sarevok owns all

[SmartAlec]

I also recommend Baldurdash (http://www.baldurdash.org/), which has a load of fixes for the game that Bioware never did.

The development of Baldurdash has continued with the BG2 Fixpack:

http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2fixpack/

This also fixes the goofy alignments and some of the odd small plot holes.

[Mr. Friendly]

IMO the best (good-aligned)party consists of:

Main Dude
Imoen
Minsc
Nalia
Keldorn
Anomen

if you get the expansion, drop either Minsc or Keldorn for Sarevok...doesnt matter whether youre making a good party or evil party, Sarevok owns all

My evil party was:

Main Character
Imoen
Edwin
Korgan
Viconia
Jaheira

I didn't take Sarevok. :smallbiggrin:

Incidentally, did you kill Demogorgon?

[Doresain]

My evil party was:

Main Character
Imoen
Edwin
Korgan
Viconia
Jaheira

I didn't take Sarevok. :smallbiggrin:

Incidentally, did you kill Demogorgon?

i messed around with shadow keeper and a number of mods so much, that i eventually just quit playing the story and started killing off entire cities...so i never got to demogorgon

[SmartAlec]

Ooo, party lists! I love these.

I ran through with three parties, and they all represent three different 'stages' of playing the game.

The 'First NPCs you come across' Party
- Jahiera
- Minsc
- Anomen
- Nalia
- Yoshimo/Imoen

Not a bad bunch. Minsc, Anomen and Jahiera make a fairly respectable front line, and there's a lot of healing power there, meaning this party can literally put itself back together again after a punishing battle. Reasonably balanced, not lacking in any real areas. I ran with these guys as a Paladin, but you could do that with anyone.

The 'Evil Party' NPCs

- Edwin
- Viconia
- Korgan

I had this hankering to run an Evil game. The thing about the three evil NPCs is that they're superlatively good; Korgan is a terrific fighter, Viconia an excellent cleric and Edwin a superb wizard. I had to play as an Assassin (or any kind of Thief) to make this work, but it was a wonderfully compact and surprisingly effective team. Plus, fewer members means you level up faster.

The 'Everyone Else' Party

- Mazzy
- Valygar
- Keldorn
- Jan
- Aerie

... and lastly, I wanted to see all the other guys in action. This group was actually pretty damn good; 4 of these NPCs you find while in the course of doing a quest, and they're actually worthwhile. This is a party that relies on teamwork and movement more than the others, though, so I wouldn't recommend it if you're new to the game. However, once they get going - this team managed to down a Shadow Dragon at level 14, and some of them didn't even have magic equipment. I ran with them as a Bard, but as with the first party, I guess you could be anyone. Don't let anyone tell you the Bard sucks, though.

[Doresain]

the only reason i would ever use Jan is for his awesome quotes...him teamed up with edwin, minsc, sarevok(if you has the expansion), korgan, and...i cant think of anyone else hes really funny with, but with that primarily melee party you will be laughing yourself to sleep

[SmartAlec]

the only reason i would ever use Jan is for his awesome quotes...him teamed up with edwin, minsc, sarevok(if you has the expansion), korgan, and...i cant think of anyone else hes really funny with, but with that primarily melee party you will be laughing yourself to sleep

Best Rogue in the bunch. You need never worry about a locked door or trap ever again. Don't sell him short.

*snicker*

[Doresain]

Best Rogue in the bunch. You need never worry about a locked door or trap ever again. Don't sell him short.

*snicker*

i just think his stature as a mage is rather sub-par

[SmartAlec]

Oh, true, but you're getting a classy thief and a backup mage in one compact package. Plays excellently alongside another mage, especially if you're into micro-management.

[Doresain]

i see what youre saying...looks like im gunna have to go back and put a little more work into playing him...ok so im running out of puns

[Lord Zentei]

Glyphic explained how the to hit number was calculated above (subtract AC from Thac0 to get the target number), here are some more tidbits:

Thac0 started at 20 at 1st level. In other words, at first level, you needed a roll of 20 to hit AC:0 and a roll of 10 or better to hit AC 10.

Progression for Thac0 was as follows:
Warriors gain -1/level.
Priests gain -2/3 levels.
Rogues gain -1/2 levels.
Mages gain -1/3 levels.

There were different Strength bonuses to hit and to damage: at Strength 16 your bonuses were +0 to hit and +1 to damage, while at 18/00 you gained +3 to hit and +6 to damage. There really was no rhyme nor reason to the way the progression worked and as you can see, you needed a pretty damn high score before you got any bonuses at all.

The strength categories were: Strength 18/01-50, Strength 18/51-75, Strength 18/76-90, Strength 18/91-99 and Strength 18/00. After 18/00, the scale went with 19, 20, etc.

Another thing of note was that no strength score (or any other score for that matter) ever rose above 25. Strength 19 was "Hill Giant Strength" giving bonuses of +3/+7, strength 20 was "Stone Giant Strength", 21 was "Frost Giant Strength", 22 was "Fire Giant Strength", 23 was "Cloud Giant Strength" and 24 was "Storm Giant Strength" which gave bonuses of +6 to hit and +12 damage. Asmodeus was noted as being "as strong as a storm giant". Finally Strength 25 was as strong as a titan. The scale didn't go any further than that, and it was a rare monster that got any bonuses to damage or to hit at all: that was assumed to be part of the HD rating and the listed damage per attack. If it got a bonus it was listed as being as strong as such-and-such a type of giant (or as a titan).


Things were, as might be expected, a little more complex in 1st edition, though the basic idea was similar.

There progression for to hit numbers was as follows:
Fighters, Rangers and Paladins gained -2/2 levels (with allowing 1/1 being a DM's option).
Clerics and Druids gained -2/3 levels.
Thieves gained -2/4 levels.
"Magic Users" and Illusionists gained -2/5 levels.

However, there was not a clear progression since the "to-hit" number of 20 was repeated six times, before it rose to 21, 22, 23 etc (these could only be reached with additional bonuses to hit). Technically, the to hit numbers were all listed on humongous tables in the DM's Guide and the players apparently weren't supposed to see it.

[Mordokai]

Dual classing can make you very powerful, but you will suffer in "the between" phase. This can be a problem if you're going solo. If you have a party, no problem there. I'd like to rectify Glyphic error - to dual class, you have to have 15 in your primary stat and 17 in your secondary stat. In your case, to dual class kensai to mage you would have to have 15 STR and 17 INT.

While Kensai/Mage is a powerful build indeed I would suggest going Kensai 13/Thief X(13 and X being number of levels). As a fighter, you will have 15 STR for sure and kensais depend heavily on DEX anyway, so this combo comes naturaly to them. 13 levels of fighter will net you great THAC0 and a lot of hp, while giving you an extra half an attack per round. If you purchase a belt of hill giant strenght you will have 19 STR. To do a little math, if you have Celestial furry(one of the best weapons in game) you will do from 14 to 24 damage, before activating Kai ability. When you activate Kai you will be doing 24 damage with each strike, and multiply that five times if you go with backstab, doing 120 damage with each strike, three times in a round, with 5% chance of extra 20 electrical damage and stunning an opponent. 'Tis a killing machine! And when you get Use any item(sort of feat for a hight level character), you will be able to use any item in game, even those banned to you before. Nothing can stand in your way then. That is the sole reason why thieves become so powerfull later in game. However, if you do that, make sure you're not Lawful good since then you won't be able to dual class to thief.

Dual classing can be funny, but also very cheesy. Personaly, I never dual class my characters, but that is purely for role playing reasons. If you want powerhouse, dual class is definetely a way to go.

[Lord Zentei]

PS: I had no intention for that "yuk" smiley to be in the title of my post above (I must have clicked it accidentally).

In case anyone is wondering what it's doing there.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Incidenally, waffletaco, this thread is now chock full of massive spoilers. This may be a late warning (and may not matter, as the game's been out for like a decade), but still, be aware.

[Doresain]

Sarevok Is Your Birth Father!!!

[Corlis]

Sarevok Is Your Birth Father!!!
Boo is Gorion reincarnate!

[Doresain]

eh gorion aint that hard to kill...just stock up on wands of summon monster and send the infinite legions of hobos/gnolls/ogrillions at him while you sit back and watch the carnage...now Tethtoril on the otherhand...hes the guy you gotta watch out for...hes got an insta-gib attack combined with immunity to everything

this is BG1 btw

[SmartAlec]

Fear the Slaver Compound/Human Flesh Skinning/Twisted Rune/Black Helicopter conspiracy!

[Dsarker]

Boo is the great miniature giant space hamster! Worship him!

Seriously though, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, not to mention their expansions, are one of the greatest game series I've played. It was a pity they re-wrote the engine for NWN, so you can't import characters to NWN, but oh, well.

[Dullyanna]

Keep in mind that some party members don't get along sometimes... they'll either try to kill each other, or one of them will ditch the party permanently. If you pay attention to their banter, though, you'll get ample warnings. Also, a good multi/dual class is the ranger/cleric. Why? 'Cause they get full access to divine and druidic spells, in one nifty little package.

@Dsarker: I feel for you, mate. They originally planned to allow you to import your character (For Icewind Dale, too!). Oh well...

[Dervag]

For both THAC0 and Armor Class, yes, LOWER numbers are BETTER. I used to know the math behind calculating hits, but I've forgotten the details.Subtract the target's Armor Class from your THACO, and you have the number you need to reach or exceed with your d20 roll to hit.

Therefore, if the target's AC is 10 (an unarmored human), then you need (your THACO)-10 to hit. If their AC is low or negative, you will need to roll a higher number to hit, because you will be subtracting less from your THACO, or even adding to your THACO.

Special bonuses or penalties may be applied to your attack role (say, for attacking from behind, or firing at someone behind cover), but that's the basics.

This is actually the same amount of math required to adjudicate hits in 3rd edition (add/subtract one number to/from another number, add/subtract any special circumstantial bonus/penalties, then compare to the die roll). It's just a little harder to remember.

[Doresain]

Keep in mind that some party members don't get along sometimes... they'll either try to kill each other, or one of them will ditch the party permanently. If you pay attention to their banter, though, you'll get ample warnings.

doesnt apply to sarevok in regards to good NPCs...mainly because sarevok is forced to work for you and will never leave...heck you can even convert him to good by the end of BG2:ToB

[Dullyanna]

doesnt apply to sarevok in regards to good NPCs...mainly because sarevok is forced to work for you and will never leave...heck you can even convert him to good by the end of BG2:ToB

Yeah, but it applies to a lot of other companions i.e. Aerie vs. Korgan, Keldorn vs. Edwin/Viconia, and Anomen vs. everybody if you f***ed his sidequest up, etc...

[CrazedGoblin]

Balder's gate II rocked emensly, and its expansion was the best, id even go as far to say better than neverwinter nights in certain places, and i never realised it was 2nd edition, but i guess it makes sense really :smallbiggrin:

[wumpus]

Just in case it hadn't sunk in, dual-classing is pretty much a requirement for BG optimization. First, you must be a human. Second, you can't be a paladin, ranger or a few other things (mentioned in the manual). Third, you will need your primary attribute to be 17 or higher in your second class (optimise carefully).

The most obvious method is to either start with a kensia (better AC and still good at melee as a magic user) or a bow-based figher then switch to magic user.

The thing to watch is the expirience point cap. As mentioned in the manual, you don't want to hit the limit in the "in between stage". Much better would be to rack up as many levels as you can in one, then switch with the smallest penalty to your maximum level in the final. I think if you subtract the xp needed for 9th level fighter from the xp cap, you wouldn't gain annother level in wizard anyway, so that is a bunch of free levels (and lots of hit points). Careful planning here is key.

The "in between stages" are always going to be a pain. You will wind up being a 1st level charecter (with lots of hp) in a 9th level campaign, and won't be able to do much at all (you don't unlock your old abilities until you become one level higher than your old class in your new class). The cheesiest thing to do is obtain a potion of extra thievery, and let the thief clean out a few stores full of magic scrolls. Have your magic user (preferably your new charecter) then scribe the scrolls into his spell book and gain xp for it. If you scribe enough spells, your new magic user should be usefull, if the old class isn't quite unlocked yet. Further cheesieness can be obtained be paring the party down as far as possible while doing this.

This was a bit of a surprise to me. I had known about the rules from 1E, but it would have taken so long in that game to unlock classes as to not be worth it. This is an especially good way to get a wizard from BG1 to BG:ToB since low level wizards are so squishy.

[AslanCross]

Edwin is the best mage NPC in the game, and he's absolutely hilarious. I get him even if I play good. (Just make sure you get him after your reputation reaches maximum. For some reason he won't leave your party despite repeated complaints.)

[holywhippet]

Edwin is the best mage NPC in the game, and he's absolutely hilarious. I get him even if I play good. (Just make sure you get him after your reputation reaches maximum. For some reason he won't leave your party despite repeated complaints.)

That's a bug in the game engine so to speak. When your reputation changes it looks at each person and decides if they will break from you based on your alignment. If your reputation is at the minimum or maximum and doesn't change they won't ever break.

I always felt that the paladin inquisitor kit was easily the best class in the game. Immunities to charm and paralysis spells are two thirds of the holy trinity of immunities - immunity to level drain being the third.

[holywhippet]

I am also going to take the opportunity to recommend Icewing Gate. It is a full conversion of Baldur's Gate II, ported to run under Icewind Dale II. This means you get to run BGII with the 3rd Edition rules. I highly recommend it.


It was never finished though was it? I thought it hit beta and was more or less discontinued. I checked the official page via Google and it still says at much. I never tried it though so I don't know how well it worked though.

[AslanCross]

I always felt that the paladin inquisitor kit was easily the best class in the game. Immunities to charm and paralysis spells are two thirds of the holy trinity of immunities - immunity to level drain being the third.

Not to mention they get Dispel Magic that functions as if it were cast by a Mage at twice your level. Furthermore, majority of the most difficult enemies in the game are casters.

[Ralfarius]

One thing I enjoyed about BG II character creation: Half orcs. If you were willing to work out a decent roll, you could have 19 strength AND con (if I'm remembering properly) and 18 dexterity. That's nutso. Also, if you had a really good roll, you could tack on 18 wis and be a fighter/cleric. Heavy armor and cleric spells and hitting super hard? Works for me. Of course, you'd be lucky to have like, 10 int and 6 cha by that point, but who needs their character to be the face, really?

[SmartAlec]

It was never finished though was it? I thought it hit beta and was more or less discontinued. I checked the official page via Google and it still says at much. I never tried it though so I don't know how well it worked though.

There are still very serious bugs, some of which can make progressing through the game impossible. Icewind Gate 2 is on offer as a beta in case anyone wants to continue the project, I think.