Bard, wand, and casting

[leegi0n]

Hello everyone -

I have a gnome: bard6/mindbender1/lyric thaum4/sublime chord 3.

Can I use a wand of clumsiness and cast a spell on the same turn?

Thanks -

[Biggus]

Hello everyone -

I have a gnome: bard6/mindbender1/lyric thaum4/sublime chord 3.

Can I use a wand of clumsiness and cast a spell on the same turn?

Thanks -

Do you mean a wand of Ray of Clumsiness? Or is Wand of Clumsiness a specific item? If the latter what book is it in?

[Darg]

Well, wands take as long to activate as their spell does to cast to a minimum of 1 standard action; unless you go by the rules compendium. Anyways, even if the activation is a standard action, you can quicken a spell to be a swift action. So the answer is yes. Just have to remember everything is predicated on the actions you have available and what type each action is.

[leegi0n]

Do you mean a wand of Ray of Clumsiness? Or is Wand of Clumsiness a specific item? If the latter what book is it in?

It's a wand of Ray of Clumsiness. Sorry, should've been more specific. Can I use it and then cast a spell?

[leegi0n]

Well, wands take as long to activate as their spell does to cast to a minimum of 1 standard action; unless you go by the rules compendium. Anyways, even if the activation is a standard action, you can quicken a spell to be a swift action. So the answer is yes. Just have to remember everything is predicated on the actions you have available and what type each action is.

Got it. That's what I thought. It's one or the other unless the spell is prepared as swift. Is that the same as quicken spell (metamagic)?

[Telonius]

Right. The unfortunate thing is that Bard spells are cast spontaneously, so Quicken Spell can't be applied to it just from the Feat. That usually doesn't matter for spells cast from a Wand (unless you're using Artificer shenanigans) but it does for whatever Bard spell you're casting afterwards. There are a few options to get Quicken onto a Bard spell: using a Metamagic Rod of Quicken is the most straightforward way to do it. The Rapid Metamagic feat (from Complete Mage) might be able to as well, but there's some argument and confusion about which order the bonuses get applied. (Does it set all metamagic casting to a flat one action, or does it say, "Okay, you're casting this like a Wizard now," and make everything eligible for Quicken).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Got it. That's what I thought. It's one or the other unless the spell is prepared as swift. Is that the same as quicken spell (metamagic)?

Yes, "quicken a spell" is short for "apply the Quicken Spell metamagic to it. Sadly, bards can't cast a quickened spell since they're spontaneous casters (unless they work for it). So the answer is just no in most cases.

[leegi0n]

Right. The unfortunate thing is that Bard spells are cast spontaneously, so Quicken Spell can't be applied to it just from the Feat. That usually doesn't matter for spells cast from a Wand (unless you're using Artificer shenanigans) but it does for whatever Bard spell you're casting afterwards. There are a few options to get Quicken onto a Bard spell: using a Metamagic Rod of Quicken is the most straightforward way to do it. The Rapid Metamagic feat (from Complete Mage) might be able to as well, but there's some argument and confusion about which order the bonuses get applied. (Does it set all metamagic casting to a flat one action, or does it say, "Okay, you're casting this like a Wizard now," and make everything eligible for Quicken).

I have access to arcane magic as a Sublime Chord, though.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I have access to arcane magic as a Sublime Chord, though.

The problem is not that it's arcane or divine (bards also cast arcane magic), the problem is the way these spells are cast. Sublime Chord has a list of spells known and can cast any of them by using a spell slot without preparing them ahead of time, like a sorcerer and unlike a wizard, who has a spellbook and can prepare different spells each morning. There is a rule that when a spell is spontaneously cast, you can only apply metamagic to it if you increase its casting time to one full-round action. Specifically, that means that Quicken Spell just doesn't work in that case.

[Darg]

Right. The unfortunate thing is that Bard spells are cast spontaneously, so Quicken Spell can't be applied to it just from the Feat. That usually doesn't matter for spells cast from a Wand (unless you're using Artificer shenanigans) but it does for whatever Bard spell you're casting afterwards. There are a few options to get Quicken onto a Bard spell: using a Metamagic Rod of Quicken is the most straightforward way to do it. The Rapid Metamagic feat (from Complete Mage) might be able to as well, but there's some argument and confusion about which order the bonuses get applied. (Does it set all metamagic casting to a flat one action, or does it say, "Okay, you're casting this like a Wizard now," and make everything eligible for Quicken).


Benefit

When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting time.

Normal

Spontaneous casters applying metamagic must either take a full-round action (if the spell normally requires a standard action or less) or add a full-round action to the casting time (if the spell takes 1 full round or longer to cast).


Normal

What a character who does not have this feat is limited to or restricted from doing. If not having the feat causes no particular drawback, this entry is absent.

Context says it removes the general rule.


Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

Rapid metamagic removes the automatic casting time increase and quicken spell has a qualifier explaining the reason for disqualification. Honestly it's more of a stretch to prevent quicken spell from working since rapid metamagic exists prior to spontaneously casting the spell..

[Telonius]

Context says it removes the general rule.



Rapid metamagic removes the automatic casting time increase and quicken spell has a qualifier explaining the reason for disqualification. Honestly it's more of a stretch to prevent quicken spell from working since rapid metamagic exists prior to spontaneously casting the spell..

I agree, but the wording is unclear enough that it always seems to cause confusion and argument whenever I've seen it brought up at a table. It's a possible solution, just wanted to put it forward with the caveat.