1 D&D UA: Spell Lists

[Oramac]

We're breaking up the mega-thread, so it seems like a good place to put this.

When they were announced, I liked the idea of using Arcane/Divine/Primal spell lists, but the more I look into them and the implementation, the more I dislike it and just want to stick with class-specific spell lists. A disclaimer here: I write a lot of homebrew content. I've currently got 3 classes I'm working on (1 full caster, 1 half-caster, 1 neither), plus a full campaign setting. As I look through the A/D/P spell lists, I realize that they are thematic within themselves, but not good enough to just slap on a class and say "use this list".

I do see the benefits of pointing new content to the lists, but that's already possible with the class lists. I don't see this as an improvement.

TL;DR: I want to drop the Arcane/Divine/Primal lists and continue using class-specific spell lists.

[diplomancer]

We're breaking up the mega-thread, so it seems like a good place to put this.

When they were announced, I liked the idea of using Arcane/Divine/Primal spell lists, but the more I look into them and the implementation, the more I dislike it and just want to stick with class-specific spell lists. A disclaimer here: I write a lot of homebrew content. I've currently got 3 classes I'm working on (1 full caster, 1 half-caster, 1 neither), plus a full campaign setting. As I look through the A/D/P spell lists, I realize that they are thematic within themselves, but not good enough to just slap on a class and say "use this list".

I do see the benefits of pointing new content to the lists, but that's already possible with the class lists. I don't see this as an improvement.

TL;DR: I want to drop the Arcane/Divine/Primal lists and continue using class-specific spell lists.

I believe you are right. Yes, this is far more stream-lined. But it throws class identity out-of-whack, specially for those "class-exclusive" spells. Will all Clerics now get a Steed?

[Goobahfish]

So there are kind of 24 spell lists? Arcane/Divine/Primal with Evoc/Conj/... combinations. That is the level of fidelity which is possible.

It is kind of rubbish? Mostly because the eight spell schools have been rubbish since inception (looking at you healing... where do you belong eh?, evocation and transmutation fighting over spells etc).

It also forces both Divine and Arcane spells to 'play to the same tune'. Arcane spells having schools makes total sense from a world-building point of view (it is impossible to have magic without some baseline world building) but for divine? Wouldn't it be nicer if Divine spells were just separated into domain-like things (life, death). Nature spells into elemental themes (storms, plants etc)?

At that point I think it would be close to workable. This subclass gets all the life-based divine spells. This class gets these 3 primal elements etc.

This is definitely a weird legacy. There aren't a huge number of divine casters that explicitly mention school type anywhere (to my knowledge) so why have that burden?

[Psyren]

It also forces both Divine and Arcane spells to 'play to the same tune'. Arcane spells having schools makes total sense from a world-building point of view (it is impossible to have magic without some baseline world building) but for divine? Wouldn't it be nicer if Divine spells were just separated into domain-like things (life, death). Nature spells into elemental themes (storms, plants etc)?

Err... if you're against non-arcane spells having schools, you're several decades late?


I believe you are right. Yes, this is far more stream-lined. But it throws class identity out-of-whack, specially for those "class-exclusive" spells. Will all Clerics now get a Steed?

Yeah, seems so. I'm ambivalent about it, I don't think it's that big a deal but I wonder if they thought it through fully.

[AttilatheYeon]

Used to be Cleric spells had schools for identification, but they were grouped by domain. So Cure Light Wounds would be a Conjuration spell in the Healing Domain.

[Wonton64]

I think this implementation will help down the line. So, for instance, every time an Arcane Illusion is spell is added in another book, the Arcane Trickster just has access to that spell. No need to update spells for every class whenever a new rulebook comes out.

[Talij]

One thing they need to clarify is which spells in Xanathar's/Tasha's/other 5e source books beyond the PHB belong in which list. We can probably infer base on the classes for some of them but an actual errata or official list posted for free somewhere would be helpful.

As for classes keeping their identity, I think I'll wait to reserve judgement until we get the mages and priests but I do have some concerns. Rangers getting access to all but a handful of Primal spells seems like it may step on Druid toes and I'm a little worried Arcane Trickster Rogue (assuming we get it again) will feel too close to the bard with their spell selection.

I'm also speculating that Warlocks will get concentration free Hex like the Rangers got for Hunter's Mark to account for Bards (and possibly Wizards/Sorcerers) getting access to it now. Perhaps Paladins will get some boost to Find Steed to make it better for them than Clerics too.

[nickl_2000]

Guidance: reaction to an ability being used, so no concentration. Awesome! One use per long rest on each person *pbbbbbt*. I don't mind the guidance spiral being removed, but 1 use per person per long rest just makes it suck. Make it a shot rest, especially since grappling and shoving are saves now vs ability checks.

Barkskin: gives temp HP instead of a set AC that sucks. Still concentration *pbbbbbt again*. They were going in the right direction, but the amount of temp HP sucks for the level and it's still fricken concentration. Still not worth ever using when did get so much better. I guess maybe on a rangers sometimes...

[Abracadangit]

It's funny, I didn't think the homogenizing of the spell lists was gonna bug me, but now that I'm looking at them, having class-specific spells thrown into this big pot feels -- weird?

Like Vicious Mockery is on the big arcane list now, up for grabs for any Mage class. It's a tiny thing, but it was a Bard thing before, and it FELT like a Bard thing. Bards are the quipping Guybrush Threepwoods of the D&D family, slinging barbs imbued with magic because that's a thing they should do. And now it's just -- [Arcane].

Hex is there too. Felt right for Warlocks, as Warlocks threw their lot in with demons, fey, and the like. They traffic in weird magics from not-so-friendly places in the multiverse, so it felt right to have them waggle their fingers at someone and cause bad things to happen. And now, boom -- [Arcane].

I'll probably get over this in due time, and something something it'll streamline mechanics, but for now it's an odd feeling.

[Pooky the Imp]

I don't see the point of having an Arcane list if Arcane classes are immediately locked to certain subgroups of spells.

Why not separate out the Bard list, rather than forcing me to look through a bigger list to work out which spells I'm even allowed to pick?

Also, agreed with the above that spell schools make no sense for primal/cleric magic. But then, D&D's magic system has long been a total mess of unintuitive and flavourless rules.

[animorte]

I don't see the point of having an Arcane list if Arcane classes are immediately locked to certain subgroups of spells.

Why not separate out the Bard list, rather than forcing me to look through a bigger list to work out which spells I'm even allowed to pick?

Also, agreed with the above that spell schools make no sense for primal/cleric magic. But then, D&D's magic system has long been a total mess of unintuitive and flavourless rules.

I think the very first note you made in this quote is a direct response to the last one. Them limiting certain classes to certain schools is directly incorporating that idea of flavor and it’s a huge step toward balancing some martial/caster disparity.

I also think that the new spell lists of Arcane/Divine/Primal are a strong thematic approach that individual spell lists have never approached, except for small thematic subclass additions.

Sifting through bigger spell lists is something that people have had to do all the time anyway. There are subclasses (Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight) that have needed to do this anyway.

However, I am with you in not knowing how they intend to separate all the divine/primal casters. BUT they may not need to since there are far fewer of those than Arcane, which is a concern many of us had with information from the previous UA. We were talking about a 4th spell list entirely, but it’s a problem they seem to have answered: Refer to my first paragraph.

Sorry, I kind of got carried away in thought.

[jas61292]

I have no issue with the way they are doing spell lists in general. And if they use this to limit Wizards in some way by going back to banned schools or something based on specialization, I would be super happy.

That said, there is one thing that is making me uncomfortable with this change: the way it will be printed in a book.

I have no issue with the mechanical implementation, but if it means we are not going to have an easy to reference list that shows what spells I can get as a member of each class... I don't know if that is worth it. If they are only going to print the three lists, they better have the school it is in next to each and every spell (or do color coding or something), otherwise it will be absolutely miserable to look things up.