OOTS #1269 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[RMS Oceanic]

Belkar building an important rapport here. :smallsmile:

[link3710]

Y'know, I always thought Kraggor was the old party member Belkar would best get along with, but this dynamic has certainly proved me wrong.

[Kantaki]

Yep. Still evil.:smallamused:

Great prank though.:smallbiggrin:

[Seramus]

*Sings.* I'm stuck on mimics, because mimics are stuck on me!

[Mon-Keigh]

Bemused Belkar is Best Belkar :smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

Wait, how intelligent are mimics?

[Reboot]

Ah, the classic Mimic plan of disguising themselves as common, unassuming pieces of furniture.

Also, does "butt" seem like an off choice of word for Durkon's accent to anyone else?

[Fyraltari]

Also, does "butt" seem like an off choice of word for Durkon's accent to anyone else?

"He can pronounce 'stratosphere', but not 'the'?"

[Resileaf]

Wait, how intelligent are mimics?

Human intelligence but slightly beastial mindset.

[Sigako]

So, basically, Serini doesn't really give a fart about their preparations?

[Wraithfighter]

...Durkon, this is Belkar we're talking about. He might have turned over a slightly less bitter leaf, but you know him, why, why are you immediately doing what he's suggesting? :D

[Doug Lampert]

...Durkon, this is Belkar we're talking about. He might have turned over a slightly less bitter leaf, but you know him, why, why are you immediately doing what he's suggesting? :D

Because he's been faking character development, I'm sure I've read on the forum about how he's neutral and tending toward good by now.

[Xel]

I don’t think I’m ever again going to sit down in a public restroom without checking the seat for eyes… <shudder>

[Hardcore]

I suppose the classic sentence inspired the comic

[Bisqwit]

The comic 1269 is currently placed between 1266 and 1267 on the archive page, for some reason.

[The MunchKING]

I didn't know mimics secreted glue...

[dancrilis]

Ha, good old Belkar.

[Dargaron]

I didn't know mimics secreted glue...

At least in 3.5, if you attack a mimic with a weapon, you have to make a strength check(?) or get automatically disarmed because your weapon is stuck in the glue.

[masamune1]

Belkar is gradually getting over his trauma of Durkon's horrifying death and enslavement by a vampire and is back to pulling pranks on him.

[Valorium]

"Steal the noodles out of your bowl of soup."

Hah. Gonna use that in the future.

[Sienar]

"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now? Short rest isn't a thing in 3.5 as far as I know. I haven't been following the background of OOTS but there are a wealth of absurdities in 5e that he could mine. Like how a paralyzed character still gets their dex bonus to AC.

[WanderingMist]

Bemused Belkar is Best Belkar :smallamused:

*Amused. "Bemused" means "confused".

[Valorium]

"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now? Short rest isn't a thing in 3.5 as far as I know. I haven't been following the background of OOTS but there are a wealth of absurdities in 5e that he could mine. Like how a paralyzed character still gets their dex bonus to AC.

This would only apply to electrical-nervous paralysis, but maybe they're just using their "twitch" reflexes...y'know...from the twitching.

(This is a joke.)

[WanderingMist]

"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now? Short rest isn't a thing in 3.5 as far as I know. I haven't been following the background of OOTS but there are a wealth of absurdities in 5e that he could mine. Like how a paralyzed character still gets their dex bonus to AC.

Now, I don't know the original rules or the new ones, but if you're gonna complain about them getting bonuses, you should complain about them getting to use an AC at all, since logically a paralyzed character would be helpless entirely while their enemies removed their armor.

[TerrickTerran]

First serious chuckle I've had in a while. Serini is my kind of halfling.

[Beni-Kujaku]

"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now? Short rest isn't a thing in 3.5 as far as I know. I haven't been following the background of OOTS but there are a wealth of absurdities in 5e that he could mine. Like how a paralyzed character still gets their dex bonus to AC.

I'm pretty sure she's referencing real world.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm starting to think that halflings in this setting have an optional Sadistic Jerk racial trait.

[Psyren]

Belkar clearly has way more Dungeoneering than Durkon :smalltongue:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Wait, how intelligent are mimics?
In 3.5, they're 10 intelligent. They're only 5 intelligent in 5e, though. Can't find any stats for 4e mimics, but I interpolate that they'd be roughly 8.3 intelligent.



So, basically, Serini doesn't really give a fart about their preparations?
I give even odds she expects them to fail and just wants to be in a position where she can stop anyone from breaking the Gate.



...Durkon, this is Belkar we're talking about. He might have turned over a slightly less bitter leaf, but you know him, why, why are you immediately doing what he's suggesting? :D
More to the point: Belkar has the wisdom of a short-sighted lemming, and only slightly more intelligence. Even if he was trying to give good advice, why would you expect him to succeed?



"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now? Short rest isn't a thing in 3.5 as far as I know. I haven't been following the background of OOTS but there are a wealth of absurdities in 5e that he could mine. Like how a paralyzed character still gets their dex bonus to AC.
He's casually slipped in references to 4e/5e mechanics as those games came out, but he hasn't made many explicit rules jokes since the days when he was first toying with the idea of character development.



*Amused. "Bemused" means "confused".
I dunno about the dictionary, but when I've heard people use the word, it's been closer to "amused" than "confused".



Belkar clearly has way more Dungeoneering than Durkon :smalltongue:
Belkar has ranks in two skills: Profession (gourmet chef) and Knowledge (prank-worthy trivia).

[Ruck]

The comic 1269 is currently placed between 1266 and 1267 on the archive page, for some reason.

Yeah, same. Which threw me in particular because my browser loves loading the cached archive page and I usually have to refresh a couple of times to load properly.

I cracked up at "I'd like to point out that you had plenty of opportunity to tell him not to do that."

[WanderingMist]

I dunno about the dictionary, but when I've heard people use the word, it's been closer to "amused" than "confused".


That happens when people see a word and don't bother looking it up before using it conversation to appear smart because they think they know what it means.

[georgie_leech]

Bemused::smallconfused:

Amused::smallamused:

[dancrilis]

I'm starting to think that halflings in this setting have an optional Sadistic Jerk racial trait.

Why optional?


*Amused. "Bemused" means "confused".


I dunno about the dictionary, but when I've heard people use the word, it's been closer to "amused" than "confused".


It can mean either:


1 : marked by confusion or bewilderment : dazed
3 : having or showing feelings of wry amusement especially from something that is surprising or perplexing

[Tzardok]

In other words, people have been getting it wrong for so long that dictionaries have started to accept it. By the by, what's meaning number 2?

[bunsen_h]

Now, I don't know the original rules or the new ones, but if you're gonna complain about them getting bonuses, you should complain about them getting to use an AC at all, since logically a paralyzed character would be helpless entirely while their enemies removed their armor.

Only if the enemies take the time to remove the armour, I'd expect. Not likely in the middle of combat with other stuff going on, but possible, and quite reasonable if the fighting is essentially over and nobody is able to act in support of the paralysed character.


In 3.5, they're 10 intelligent. They're only 5 intelligent in 5e, though. Can't find any stats for 4e mimics, but I extrapolate that they'd be roughly 8.3 intelligent.

Belkar has ranks in two skills: Profession (gourmet chef) and Knowledge (prank-worthy trivia).

Nitpickery: "interpolate" is probably more appropriate than "extrapolate". Belkar clearly also has knowledge of Judy Garland movies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).

[Laurentio III]

Because he's been faking character development, I'm sure I've read on the forum about how he's neutral and tending toward good by now.
Didn't he gained a couple levels as Paladin a few pages ago?

[Coventry]

Ahhh, evening the score with Durkon for his tacit complicity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) in the past.

[Particle_Man]

Why optional?
Because according to the angel that was meant to be on Belkar's shoulder and is spending some time recovering from the trauma, halflings are supposed to be jolly.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

So at least as a baseline, halflings don't automatically have the sadistic jerk trait. Clearly some of them can.

[WanderingMist]

In other words, people have been getting it wrong for so long that dictionaries have started to accept it. By the by, what's meaning number 2?

Also Merriam-Webster:
2: lost in thought or reverie

----------------------------------------------------

I don't mind that people in the past used words incorrectly and that changing their meaning over time. It's not like literacy was widespread and dictionaries were even less so. However, now, is different. Now most people have constant access to a dictionary so misusing words because you're too lazy to look them up is unacceptable. Looking at you, "literally", the poster child for this phenomenon.

[NobleCuriosity]

The comic 1269 is currently placed between 1266 and 1267 on the archive page, for some reason.

Echoing this in hopes of helping get it fixed.

Also, I really liked the “why would I own five stools?” bit—though it does provoke the question of “wait, why do you own THREE?”

[faustin]

Is Serini going to become Belkar's new mentor, provided they both survive?:smallamused:

[Crimsonmantle]

Echoing this in hopes of helping get it fixed.

Also, I really liked the “why would I own five stools?” bit—though it does provoke the question of “wait, why do you own THREE?”Why indeed. Probably because she's still withholding info about her other roomie?

Human intelligence but slightly beastial mindset.

You're thinking of halflihg rangers.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In other words, people have been getting it wrong for so long that dictionaries have started to accept it.
When it comes to language, use dictates meaning. Well, also the context of that use—the use of "theory" in scientific contexts is radically different from its use in casual contexts, to the continuing frustration of anti-creationists.



Nitpickery: "interpolate" is probably more appropriate than "extrapolate".
Hm, fair point. I never gave that much thought to the precise meaning of "extrapolate," but I do like being precise.



Also, I really liked the “why would I own five stools?” bit—though it does provoke the question of “wait, why do you own THREE?”
Some of her monster buddies like to sit down, I guess?

That, or she's keeping extras around for spare parts when her main stool breaks down.

[Mad Humanist]

This strip reminds me of a song. As far as I can remember the lyrics:


Mimics to the left of me.
Rogues to the right of me.
Stuck in a meeting with you.

[PontificatusRex]

The Belkster's gotta Belk.

[Edward15]

Yep. Still evil.:smallamused:

Great prank though.:smallbiggrin:

Not true. You don't have to be evil to play such a joke. Harmless fun with your teammates doesn't go down in the celestial records.

[WanderingMist]

Not true. You don't have to be evil to play such a joke. Harmless fun with your teammates doesn't go down in the celestial records.

Roy's conversation with the deva seems to indicate otherwise. It's only childhood escapades that get overlooked. That said, this clearly still isn't an Evil action.

[georgie_leech]

However, now, is different. Now most people have constant access to a dictionary so misusing words because you're too lazy to look them up is unacceptable. Looking at you, "literally", the poster child for this phenomenon.

While I'm sympathetic to this opinion, "literally" has been used in the figurative sense for literally centuries (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002611.html). The fight might be lost on that front.

[warmachine]

According to SRD, a Mimic can dissolve its adhesive at will, has INT 10, and can speak Common. It should be possible to persuade one to unstick from Durkon. May have to calm it down first.

[Breccia]

I did not think "it's stuck to me butt" would be a line in this comic. Ever.

And then I remembered. Belkar.

[Shining Wrath]

Serini and Belkar, two of a kind.

And Serini has some more helpers beside just mimics, I'll warrant.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't mind that people in the past used words incorrectly and that changing their meaning over time. It's not like literacy was widespread and dictionaries were even less so. However, now, is different. Now most people have constant access to a dictionary so misusing words because you're too lazy to look them up is unacceptable. Looking at you, "literally", the poster child for this phenomenon.

SO, you're saying that you're fine that words changed meaning in the past, but since you think it's possible to freeze language in place due to the Internet, you think it's suddenly bad?

Look, I don't like that "literally" is frequently used as a mere intensifier, like most of its past synonyms. But it's one thing to say that I don't like a phenomenon in this specific case, it's another to say that we should call out people for not using the Canonical Definition of Words (as established by Noah Webster in 1806).

[Kish]

"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now?
Sure*. He said when 4ed came out that while the comic wasn't getting "updated," he wouldn't hesitate to use it as a source of jokes--"I go where the humor takes me."

*Well, 4ed or 5ed; a short rest could be a reference to either.

Or someone could come in here and say it's actually a reference to Tome of Battle because that introduced the idea of five minutes of something doing something.

[maxon]

While I'm sympathetic to this opinion, "literally" has been used in the figurative sense for literally centuries (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002611.html). The fight might be lost on that front.

If you want an example of word abuse, I offer you 'simplistic'. The times I've squawked 'you mean 'simple' you moron...'

[Kantaki]

Not true. You don't have to be evil to play such a joke. Harmless fun with your teammates doesn't go down in the celestial records.

Eh, I'd call it a very, very minor evil act.
Not enough for a black mark, but at least paladins probably shouldn't do it (too often)*.

Keep doing it and the deva reviewing your case might not immediately toss you into the true neutral bin, but they might nag you. A lot.

And in Belkar's case? Well, it's barely even a blip, but as part of his general behaviour?
Even taking into account his (probably not entirely) faked character development, it still puts him south of neutral.

*Not calling it fall worthy, much less a Miko grade level of disapproval, but it definitely shouldn't be a habit.

[Riftwolf]

Currently wondering if seat glue mimic will be the ace in the hole during Redcloak negotiations.

[Jervis]

Currently wondering if seat glue mimic will be the ace in the hole during Redcloak negotiations.

Turns out they secretly have mage slayer so he can't cast spells during the negotiation.

[Sigako]

In AD&D regular mimic has Int 8-10 and is capable of speech and bargaining. While voracious, they are reasonable.
Killer mimic is an animal with Int 2-4 and attacks on sight everything small enough to be its prey.

That's not really 3 or 3.5 ed, but The Order of the Scribble is technically from earlier editions.

[brionl]

At least in 3.5, if you attack a mimic with a weapon, you have to make a strength check(?) or get automatically disarmed because your weapon is stuck in the glue.

I'm pretty sure the glue thing has been there since the OD&D.

[Kish]

That's not really 3 or 3.5 ed, but The Order of the Scribble is technically from earlier editions.
The group with the epic elf druid and the sorcerer with two levels of ranger is technically nothing of the kind.

"Old" only means "1ed" if Rich wants to make a joke about it meaning that.

[Sigako]

Dorukan sheltered monsters from the old editions, Serini might've shared the idea, that's what I mean.

[Fish]

In other words, people have been getting it wrong for so long that dictionaries have started to accept it.

But I assume you always use every word in your lexicon in its original, ancient sense, pronouncing it as it was when the word was invented.

[bunsen_h]

I'm pretty sure the glue thing has been there since the OD&D.

The AD&D Monster Manual says that "When a creature touches the mimic, the latter lashes out with a pseudopod, delivering 3-12 points of damage per hit. Meanwhile, the mimic excretes a glue which holds fast whatever member the creature touched the mimic with." There's no more detail about the glue -- how to get unstuck from it, catching weapons, any of that stuff.

[Ruck]

Ahhh, evening the score with Durkon for his tacit complicity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) in the past.

Or his active participation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html).

[Raven777]

In other words, people have been getting it wrong for so long that dictionaries have started to accept it. By the by, what's meaning number 2?

You know not what you have unleashed! ...

...

I take bets that six to eight pages from now this thread will still bear echoes of a Prescriptivism vs Descriptivism debate. I'll return tomorrow to check! :D

[DiMono]

New comic is in the wrong place in the list on the homepage. It's between 1266 and 1267.

[Yirggzmb]

but since you think it's possible to freeze language in place due to the Internet, you think it's suddenly bad?

Not specifically replying to you, but building off this thought.

I'd almost be willing to argue that the internet *speeds up* the way language changes. Every time a word is used, there's a chance someone is using it in a different or new context. And the internet enables so much conversation all the time, with people from all over the world. The potential for new and interesting uses of a word is so high on the internet.

I find it really interesting watching words change in use subtly as time goes on, or in some cases spring up out of whole cloth. Language is so much like a living thing that it's fascinating

[Tzardok]

But I assume you always use every word in your lexicon in its original, ancient sense, pronouncing it as it was when the word was invented.

Of course I do. I'm speaking nothing but Indo-Germanic in my day-to-day life.

[Laurentio III]

Of course I do. I'm speaking nothing but Indo-Germanic in my day-to-day life.
Pff. I only speak in guttural grunts, even when writing.
I just have an EXCELLENT auto-correct.

[Tzardok]

I think your autocorrect is saying things you didn't want to say. Like any other autocorrect, but more insidious.

[Thermophille]

So we've been speaking to the AI in Laurentio's autocorrect this entire time?

[Laurentio III]

It's me, not ai AI. And I'm not in danger, and in need of help, unable to comunicate with the outside because of a malicious software.

[Crimsonmantle]

New comic is in the wrong place in the list on the homepage. It's between 1266 and 1267.
Prescriptivist!

[Blazurmlak]

The advice didn't work out for Durkon, but maybe the mimic felt better. He's a ranger after all, he knows his stuff. Belkar, I mean, not the mimic :smallbiggrin:

[mjasghar]

If you have problems with the use of bemused maybe you should look up the word awful and it’s initial meaning.
And that’s not counting how meanings have changed when words are borrowed from other languages and their meaning changed by cultural context.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's me, not ai AI. And I'm not in danger, and in need of help, unable to comunicate with the outside because of a malicious software.

Oh, ok, good. I was worried there for a moment.

[Thecommander236]

Belkar is relapsing here. XD

[KorvinStarmast]

"A well placed short rest..." Is The Giant referencing 5e now? Maybe.

I'm starting to think that halflings in this setting have an optional Sadistic Jerk racial trait. How many have we seen?

Mimics to the left of me.
Rogues to the right of me.
Stuck in a meeting with you.You forgot the "here I am" bit
Mimics to the left of me.
Rogues to the right of me.
Here I am
Stuck in a meeting with you
For those not aware, the original song (https://youtu.be/8StG4fFWHqg) said it like this:
Clowns to the left of me
Jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the Middle with you..


... while the comic wasn't getting "updated," he wouldn't hesitate to use it as a source of jokes--"I go where the humor takes me." Works for me.

The AD&D Monster Manual says that "When a creature touches the mimic, the latter lashes out with a pseudopod, delivering 3-12 points of damage per hit. Meanwhile, the mimic excretes a glue which holds fast whatever member the creature touched the mimic with." I will guess that acetone might be useful for removing it. :smallbiggrin:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Owning more stools than you have people to sit on them is perfectly normal, and everyone I know does it.

*sigh*

I guess I learn another thing I thought was normal is weird and yet strangely common in my experience.

[Fyraltari]

Owning more stools than you have people to sit on them is perfectly normal, and everyone I know does it.

*sigh*

I guess I learn another thing I thought was normal is weird and yet strangely common in my experience.

She owns three while being the only one to use them. How many more than needed do you consider normal to own?

[The MunchKING]

She owns three while being the only one to use them. How many more than needed do you consider normal to own?

I've only got one stool, but I have like 10 chairs in my house. so a 10:1 Ratio still seems normal to me. :smallconfused:

[bunsen_h]

She owns three while being the only one to use them. How many more than needed do you consider normal to own?

Enough to seat the largest plausible number of residents + visitors appropriately for the various contexts. Enough dinner-table chairs for your largest plausible dinner party, enough living-room chairs to seat people for a social gathering, etc., with some of those chairs probably being multi-purpose. Constraints: ability to obtain the desirable number of chairs; available storage space and a desire to avoid clutter. Serini never expected to need to host a party of adventurers; rather, she expected to be isolated. So she's got a couple of extras against the possibility of, say, her former colleagues coming to visit, or some other emergency visitors, and she's got "alternative seating" in the form of the mimics.

[Fyraltari]

I've only got one stool, but I have like 10 chairs in my house. so a 10:1 Ratio still seems normal to me. :smallconfused:

I'm going to take a guess that your house is bigger than this room (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html) and isn't smack-dab in the middle of the Arctic where nobody ever comes to visit.

[Metastachydium]

I'm going to take a guess that your house is bigger than this room (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html) and isn't smack-dab in the middle of the Arctic where nobody ever comes to visit.

Well, the half of my house that might be slightly smaller in terms of useful surface area than that room has three chairs, two armchairs (one of them isn't mine) and two stools (I wouldn't sit on); the other half, that's, well, actually still slightly smaller than Serini's has seven chairs, a large armchair and a stool. I also have a folding chair and a folding stool in storage.

Nobody ever comes to visit.

[Mike Havran]

Looks like mimics are funnier than palm trees :smallamused:

[elros]

Am I foolish for thinking the latest comic is foreshadowing how the mimics will be used against Team Evil? I suspect a mimic will stick to Xykon, which will add to his growing list of distractions that will ultimately lead to his downfall.

[Coppercloud]

Am I foolish for thinking the latest comic is foreshadowing how the mimics will be used against Team Evil? I suspect a mimic will stick to Xykon, which will add to his growing list of distractions that will ultimately lead to his downfall.
A mimic isn't much of a distraction when you can obliterate it with a Fireball without a second thought, as Xykon would. Instead of using them as cannon fodder, I think turning several mimics into a fake Gate or something like that would be be more beneficial to the Order. We'll see!

[dancrilis]

Am I foolish for thinking the latest comic is foreshadowing how the mimics will be used against Team Evil? I suspect a mimic will stick to Xykon, which will add to his growing list of distractions that will ultimately lead to his downfall.

I was going to say that Xykon is immune to glue - but looked it up and it turns out he isn't, which was something of a 'huh, it works like that?' moment.

[Riftwolf]

I was going to say that Xykon is immune to glue - but looked it up and it turns out he isn't, which was something of a 'huh, it works like that?' moment.

He has Freedom of Movement from his new shoes though. So lichs don't have glue immunity but Xykon does.

[KorvinStarmast]

Owning more stools than you have people to sit on them is perfectly normal, and everyone I know does it. Presuming that the stools in question are not toilets (yes, that is a usage that's not seen much anymore). There was a Larry the Cable guy joke that went somewhere along the lines of "The cripple stool is the Cadillac of the poopin' stools"


I guess I learn another thing I thought was normal is weird and yet strangely common in my experience. You are good. Most child play tables (like the one I bought for and put together for my grand daughter) come with two or 4 mini chairs but there's only one child.

I think turning several mimics into a fake Gate or something like that would be be more beneficial to the Order. We'll see! +1 for this thought.

He has Freedom of Movement from his new shoes though. So lichs don't have glue immunity but Xykon does. Good catch, I forgot about the golashes.

[dancrilis]

He has Freedom of Movement from his new shoes though. So lichs don't have glue immunity but Xykon does.

That is why I was surprised that he didn't have immunity - the shoes don't seem to grant it against mimics.

Freedom of Movement works like this:


The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

Cut and bolded for clarity.

Where Mimics work like this:


A mimic exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive-covered mimic automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the mimic is alive without removing the adhesive first.


So where it is/was very easy to think that Xykon is immune - my reading it that sense no opposed grapple check is made to start the grapple and no grapple check or escape artist check is made to escape while the mimic is still alive therefore Freedom of Movement does not protect against mimic grapples.

Hence my 'huh, it works like that?' moment.

[NobleCuriosity]

I just noticed the double meaning in the strip title. I’m amused and a bit embarrassed that it took me this long.

Also, glad to see that the archive ordering got fixed!

[Wintermoot]

Well, the half of my house that might be slightly smaller in terms of useful surface area than that room has three chairs, two armchairs (one of them isn't mine) and two stools (I wouldn't sit on); the other half, that's, well, actually still slightly smaller than Serini's has seven chairs, a large armchair and a stool. I also have a folding chair and a folding stool in storage.

Nobody ever comes to visit.

Sounds like you make some very inefficient furnishing decisions. I guess that tracks for a plant.

[danielxcutter]

It's worth noting that Knowledge(dungeoneering) is a Ranger class skill. :smallamused:

[bunsen_h]

Presuming that the stools in question are not toilets (yes, that is a usage that's not seen much anymore).

Or the stuff that goes into toilets, of course.

(Which most people don't keep long-term, with a few exceptions such as coproliths.)

[gatemansgc]

Y'know, I always thought Kraggor was the old party member Belkar would best get along with, but this dynamic has certainly proved me wrong.

they're certainly getting along well!

must be that halfling sense of humor!

[Riftwolf]

That is why I was surprised that he didn't have immunity - the shoes don't seem to grant it against mimics.

...

Hence my 'huh, it works like that?' moment.

Ah ok sorry for assuming you'd forgotten the FOM-shoes, I thought you'd looked at the lich statblock.

It's almost like 3.5 is full of counterintuitive rule cludges.

[Laurentio III]

I don't get why someone should be surprised that an person living alone could own three stools.
To start, one is used as a night table, so it hardly counts.
Them she is a very old person. You can't expect her to move a stool around the room everytime she need to reach the pepper pot. Even if she is a very athletic halfling, still is old and fragil. So having one stool neat the table and a second one around is just sensible.

[Fyraltari]

I don't get why someone should be surprised that an person living alone could own three stools.

Five, not three.

[Laurentio III]

Five, not three.
I don't get why someone on this forum should be surprised that a person living alone could own three stools. And two friendly mimics.

[Metastachydium]

I don't get why someone on this forum should be surprised that a person living alone could own three stools. And two friendly mimics.

Well, if one has two friendly mimics under the same roof, one's not actually living alone.

[Ruck]

Five, not three.

"One, two, five!"
"Three!"
"Three!"

[Fyraltari]

"One, two, five!"
"Three!"
"Three!"

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Jar_8654.png

[Quizatzhaderac]

I know who the other two stools (the real ones) are for, the two mimics! They can take humanoid form right? Maybe not a convincing form like a doppelganger, but they should at least be able to manager a mannequin that moves.

Although, also we might take the extra stools as evidence that she meets with the bugbears.

[Ruck]

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Jar_8654.png

Most of the threads on here devolve into discussions of properties I have no real knowledge of or way to reference, so when the opportunity to reference one I do know and everyone will recognize comes up, I'm gonna take it.

[Peelee]

Most of the threads on here devolve into discussions of properties I have no real knowledge of or way to reference, so when the opportunity to reference one I do know and everyone will recognize comes up, I'm gonna take it.

I'd make more In Bruges references but the forum rules from upon excessive amounts of profanities in posts.

[Ruck]

I'd make more In Bruges references but the forum rules from upon excessive amounts of profanities in posts.

I guess I could argue the same about The Shield references, except that it's more that practically nobody has seen it from what I can tell and they really should. I guess I could work in more 30 Rock and It's Always Sunny, they seem reasonably popular.

[Peelee]

except that it's more that practically nobody has seen it from what I can tell and they really should.

I legit don't know whether you're talking about The Shield or In Bruges there.:smallwink:

[LadyEowyn]

Serini being part-troll now is a pun.

Except really, she’s all-troll.

[Jasdoif]

except that it's more that practically nobody has seen it from what I can tell and they really should.I legit don't know whether you're talking about The Shield or In Bruges there.:smallwink:Perhaps UHF, The Court Jester or Rocketman?

[Ruck]

I legit don't know whether you're talking about The Shield or In Bruges there.:smallwink:

Personally I was talking about The Shield, but practically speaking it's probably both. I can't tell if more people have seen In Bruges than The Shield-- maybe not in the world, but I guess I tend to interact with people who are more cinephiles and tend to prefer the prestige TV shows that, to put it bluntly, look like there was a lot of money put into the production.


Perhaps UHF, The Court Jester or Rocketman?

Unfortunately, I can't help you on any count there. I guess I can always go with classic Simpsons if I need some easy laughs.

[Laurentio III]

Although, also we might take the extra stools as evidence that she meets with the bugbears.
We don't speak about "bugbears' monday night". It's a private matter.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I don’t think I’m ever again going to sit down in a public restroom without checking the seat for eyes… <shudder>

I really need to make a meme of a toilet growing arms, legs, and teeth like a Dark Souls 3 mimic.

[greenfunkman]

This is really a comment on the last strip, but it's definitely Elan's hitherto-unknown skill which is going to save the day soon, eh?

After all, he's shown hidden talent before: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html

(Apologies if this was discussed to death in the last thread)

[Laurentio III]

This is really a comment on the last strip, but it's definitely Elan's hitherto-unknown skill which is going to save the day soon, eh?

After all, he's shown hidden talent before: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html

(Apologies if this was discussed to death in the last thread)
Considering that Elan is a master in "Tripping on the Plot" and the only one having a discussion di Sunny, you could be right.

[mashlagoo1982]

If Durkon is going to fall for Belkar's prank like that so easily, I feel Durkon deserves being pranked.

At least it is a harmless prank. Belkar has done far worse to his fellow party members in the past. Maybe this is his less-evil (but still evil) showing through.

[dancrilis]

A lot of people are talking about Belkar's actions as a innocent prank against Durkon - seemingly overlooking that it was the Mimic that was nervous and Belkar was arranging for Durkon to assault it.

Points for Belkar clarifing with Serini that she had no particularly issue with this in case she flipped out at her friends being manhandled.

[Trixie_One]

I'd almost be willing to argue that the internet *speeds up* the way language changes.

I'd say this is certainly true, and if anything I get frustrated by how quickly what were once useful terms devolve into uselessness becoming generic derogatory insults applied to something that is disliked. See the examples of a disliked female character being called a 'Mary Sue' or 'Karen' or a male character being called an 'Incel'.

[bunsen_h]

I'd say this is certainly true, and if anything I get frustrated by how quickly what were once useful terms devolve into uselessness becoming generic derogatory insults applied to something that is disliked. See the examples of a disliked female character being called a 'Mary Sue' or 'Karen' or a male character being called an 'Incel'.

Has "incel" devolved to being a generic insult, as opposed to referring to a deeply-misogynistic guy who can't find a partner? Even the latter is a devolution, from the original meaning of someone who simply hadn't been able to find a partner, with no association with misogyny or the gender of the person. (I'm acquainted with the woman who set up the original "involuntarily celibate" mailing list, and who was horrified to learn what her movement had become after she moved on to other things.)

[andowero]

Or the stuff that goes into toilets, of course.

(Which most people don't keep long-term, with a few exceptions such as coproliths.)

I would like to point out, that the stuff the coprolith is made out was never meant for toilet. Toilets were invented millions of years after the precursor for coprolith had been placed.

[Peelee]

I would like to point out, that the stuff the coprolith is made out was never meant for toilet. Toilets were invented millions of years after the precursor for coprolith had been placed.

Wait, you're saying I shouldn't be robbing coprolite museums and flushing all the goods down the toilet?

[Fyraltari]

Wait, you're saying I shouldn't be robbing coprolite museums and flushing all the goods down the toilet?

I'm not sure how good that would look on your file vis-à-vis certain agency.

[brian 333]

Never flush phosphates. They are far too useful.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure how good that would look on your file vis-à-vis certain agency.

Apparently they're still interested.

[Trixie_One]

Has "incel" devolved to being a generic insult, as opposed to referring to a deeply-misogynistic guy who can't find a partner? Even the latter is a devolution, from the original meaning of someone who simply hadn't been able to find a partner, with no association with misogyny or the gender of the person. (I'm acquainted with the woman who set up the original "involuntarily celibate" mailing list, and who was horrified to learn what her movement had become after she moved on to other things.)

The example that brought that one to my mind was the recent reaction to a character on the new Thrones show who behaved rather badly after having sex. A ton of the comments and threads about the episode involved calling him one, and only the rare comment could be found with some variaton of 'no, he first was voluntarily celibate, then voluntarily sexual, and then a complete and utter git without being an incel ever being a factor'.

[drDunkel]

The example that brought that one to my mind was the recent reaction to a character on the new Thrones show who behaved rather badly after having sex. A ton of the comments and threads about the episode involved calling him one, and only the rare comment could be found with some variaton of 'no, he first was voluntarily celibate, then voluntarily sexual, and then a complete and utter git without being an incel ever being a factor'.

But, you know, people in general are rather daft… screamers on the internet are probably some of the worst, and if you add twitter to the mix, it makes for a depressing read.

[drDunkel]

Has "incel" devolved to being a generic insult, as opposed to referring to a deeply-misogynistic guy who can't find a partner?

Standard insults of the internet changes over time. Being “false” was a thing before being “toxic” and now it is “narcissistic”.

[danielxcutter]

The example that brought that one to my mind was the recent reaction to a character on the new Thrones show who behaved rather badly after having sex. A ton of the comments and threads about the episode involved calling him one, and only the rare comment could be found with some variaton of 'no, he first was voluntarily celibate, then voluntarily sexual, and then a complete and utter git without being an incel ever being a factor'.

The sad thing is that it wasn’t even the right insult, then.

[WanderingMist]

Standard insults of the internet changes over time. Being “false” was a thing before being “toxic” and now it is “narcissistic”.

Given what the Internet is like, I don't expect "narcissistic" to ever go out of style. Perhaps it will rotate with "egotistical".

[JonahFalcon]

Given what the Internet is like, I don't expect "narcissistic" to ever go out of style. Perhaps it will rotate with "egotistical".

Especially since narcissism is a medical term.

[bunsen_h]

The example that brought that one to my mind was the recent reaction to a character on the new Thrones show who behaved rather badly after having sex. A ton of the comments and threads about the episode involved calling him one, and only the rare comment could be found with some variaton of 'no, he first was voluntarily celibate, then voluntarily sexual, and then a complete and utter git without being an incel ever being a factor'.

I had to do a bit of digging to get the story there. It sounds like Criston Cole's having sex wasn't entirely voluntary -- that he was forced into the situation by the woman's social/political clout. But "involuntarily celibate" is right out. It's not even clear to me, from the stuff that I've read, that he's misogynist in general rather than having hatred for that particular woman and her family. But my willingness to dig into details is very limited. I stopped reading the book series just a couple of chapters in, what with one of the main characters trying to casually kill a child, and the sense that the series was going to be all about powerful people doing horrible things in the name of power while ignoring a much larger looming disaster. What I've seen of the TV show was way too heavy on the explicit sex and violence for my taste.

[Peelee]

Especially since narcissism is a medical term.

There's no shortage of former medical terms that got turned into insults.

[dancrilis]

There's no shortage of former medical terms that got turned into insults.

Former or current, for instance calling someone 'a ringlike muscle that normally maintains constriction of a body passage or orifice and that relaxes as required by normal physiological functioning'.

[F.Harr]

Letting him run, but only so far.

Why would no one trust Belkar when it came to Durkon? No idea.

[RickDaily12]

Ah yes, of course these Mimics do monster-y things the instant someone acknowledges they exist.:smallbiggrin:

Almost like a throwback joke to the old Blackwing days...

[Darth Paul]

When I saw the looks of horror on Durkon & Minrah's faces, I laughed so hard I almost dropped my laptop.

[Trixie_One]

But, you know, people in general are rather daft… screamers on the internet are probably some of the worst, and if you add twitter to the mix, it makes for a depressing read.

Heh, I think that was basically my point.


There's no shortage of former medical terms that got turned into insults.

Was a real shock finding out that a word derived from a medical term that was literally the worst thing you could call someone was used rather casually in the US to call someone an idiot. For me growing up in my part of the UK all sorts of horrible language was used by those I was trapped in the same school with from the homophobic to the rascist, and that was when they weren't combining the two, but even they thought that calling someone the word starting with s was absolutely beyond the pale.

[brian 333]

I used to buy construction supplies from a guy who, when riled up, could leave no doubt that his target had been deeply and personally insulted with never a bad word spoken. Relying on 'insult words' is a crutch used by the mentally challenged. Such words and phrases should be viewed as an indication of the speaker's condition and not the target's.

Johnny Carson, (Google the name if you don't know it,) used to say, "You really brought out your best material tonight," when a performer had a poor showing. It was a virtual guarantee that performer's career was over.

[The MunchKING]

Was a real shock finding out that a word derived from a medical term that was literally the worst thing you could call someone was used rather casually in the US to call someone an idiot. For me growing up in my part of the UK all sorts of horrible language was used by those I was trapped in the same school with from the homophobic to the rascist, and that was when they weren't combining the two, but even they thought that calling someone the word starting with s was absolutely beyond the pale.

Literally the worst thing you could call someone? Huh? Starts with an S, used to call someone an Idiot, started as a medical term...

What "Stupid"? :smallconfused:

Maybe "Simpleton"? But I only heard that one in cartoons and TV shows where the arrogant people were addressing people who were pretty stupid. I never really heard that one as an insult at school.

"Spastic"?? But I've only heard that one when it was drawing a parallel with its literal meaning "someone who is having spasms" not as an idiot.

All the rest of the insults I can think of that start with S are offensive because they are vulgar, and usually scatological. Hardly "literally the worst thing you could call someone".

[Peelee]

I'm also intrigued, but this forum may not be the best place to specify.

[The MunchKING]

I'm also intrigued, but this forum may not be the best place to specify.

Alright, fair enough, sorry.

[pendell]

I've encountered obscenities in English, French, Spanish, Russian, Fharsee, and Mandarin. I would argue Mandarin is best language to swear in (http://smallcultfollowing.com/firefly-chinese-slang.pdf). The wide range of the vocabulary is not only most elegant for explaining a person's shortcomings in minute detail, the brevity of the words makes it efficient for the purpose as well.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Reach Weapon]

There's no shortage of former medical terms that got turned into insults.Former or current, for instance calling someone [...]
I'm relatively certain using that for insulting purposes, not only predates medicine, but also every language extant today and perhaps all their direct antecedents.

[bunsen_h]

I'm relatively certain using that for insulting purposes, not only predates medicine, but also every language extant today and perhaps all their direct antecedents.

A gay man of my acquaintance once wrote something along the lines of "To call [X] an {scrubbed} is to denigrate an attractive and important part of the human body."

[JonahFalcon]

What's funny is "stupid" originally did not mean "not smart". It meant "unable to speak".

[Tzardok]

That was "dumb", not "stupid". "Stupid" is derived from Latin "stupidus" and can mean either "stunned" or, well, "stupid".

[Fyraltari]

And "cretin" comes from "christian".

[Robots]

I'd say this is certainly true, and if anything I get frustrated by how quickly what were once useful terms devolve into uselessness becoming generic derogatory insults applied to something that is disliked. See the examples of a disliked female character being called a 'Mary Sue' or 'Karen' or a male character being called an 'Incel'.
Or any sort of male character who has a crush on a girl being called a "simp". It irritates me because I see it used by 12 year olds who have no idea what it means.

[JonahFalcon]

That was "dumb", not "stupid". "Stupid" is derived from Latin "stupidus" and can mean either "stunned" or, well, "stupid".

Which is where "stupefy" comes from. But it never meant "not smart" til modern English slang.

[Tzardok]

As I said, stupidus already meant stupid before English was even a thing, so...

[JonahFalcon]

As I said, stupidus already meant stupid before English was even a thing, so...

No. It meant stunned, shocked, unable to speak.

There's a reason for the term "stupefy" and "struck stupid".

[Quizatzhaderac]

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=stupid

Latin "Stupidus" had connotations of being foolish, as did every descendant. Any connotations of "Stunned" died out from English "stupid" over two and a half centuries ago.

[Ruck]

We should bring the old meaning back just so we can have Power Word: Stupid.

[JonahFalcon]

Anyone think it's funny how Roy has to sit on a stool meant for Small size creatures?

[bunsen_h]

Anyone think it's funny how Roy has to sit on a stool meant for Small size creatures?

He could have just sat on the floor like Haley and (apparently) Vaarsuvius, thereby freeing up one of the real stools. Perhaps his armour would make that difficult. But his sitting on a stool places him half a head higher than any of the other seated people.

[Laurentio III]

He could have just sat on the floor like Haley and (apparently) Vaarsuvius,
Vaasrsuvius is levitating.
Somehow it's a cantrip, or an elf power, or the most severe and persistent flautolence ever.

[JonahFalcon]

He could have just sat on the floor like Haley and (apparently) Vaarsuvius, thereby freeing up one of the real stools. Perhaps his armour would make that difficult. But his sitting on a stool places him half a head higher than any of the other seated people.

But check out his legs. :biggrin:

[Metastachydium]

Vaasrsuvius is levitating.
Somehow it's a cantrip, or an elf power, or the most severe and persistent flautolence ever.

V's been doing that in the tunnel as well (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html). We have seen them do it while meditating (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html); nevertheless, my personal guess would be that they are merely using their Overland Flight there (yes, I am aware that Overland Flight doesn't provide the maneuverability needed for hovering, but Xykon was likewise shown using it in a way that shouldn't, by RAW, be possible unless the spell provided perfect flight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) or he invested heavily in feats facilitating such a use).

[Drathon'Tal]

Stealing the noodles out of your soup. I will be stealing that. I wonder how long durkon will stay stuck. would be hilarious if Xykon shows up with him still stuck to a stool mimic.

[KorvinStarmast]

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=stupid

Latin "Stupidus" had connotations of being foolish, as did every descendant. Any connotations of "Stunned" died out from English "stupid" over two and a half centuries ago. I think that part of the 'stunned' meaning is retained in the term 'stupor' from the same root.

[bunsen_h]

"Stealing the noodles out of your soup" -- given the halfling cultural focus on food, I suppose it makes sense that their metaphors would be food-based.

[alceryes]

Belkar getting Durkon to give the mimic a massage is a straight up Wisdom call.

I don't see how a Wisdom of 22+ didn't even consider the posible negative outcomes. Makes for a great story but, RAW, this would've never happened.

[Peelee]

Belkar getting Durkon to give the mimic a massage is a straight up Wisdom call.

I don't see how a Wisdom of 22+ didn't even consider the posible negative outcomes. Makes for a great story but, RAW, this would've never happened.

If you want to classify it as RAW, it's not a straight Wis roll, it would be Dungeoneering.

However, RAW doesn't matter for the story, and has not for a very long time.

[alceryes]

If you want to classify it as RAW, it's not a straight Wis roll, it would be Dungeoneering.

However, RAW doesn't matter for the story, and has not for a very long time.

Understood regarding RAW.
It would be dungeoneering if you're considering the check to be knowledge about the monster type, yes.
As a player, I would call this a Wisdom check because the check gets way more functionally basic than knowing the moster type - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?" As a DM, I would definitely allow this as a Wisdom roll.

[Peelee]

Understood regarding RAW.
It would be dungeoneering if you're considering the check to be knowledge about the monster type, yes.
As a player, I would call this a Wisdom check because the check gets way more functionally basic than knowing the moster type - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?" As a DM, I would definitely allow this as a Wisdom roll.

That'd be a great call if it was a surface with a sticky substance on it, since then it can't react. The mimic, being a creature, can react and the information given was specifically about how it make it react a certain way. If it was a horse, I'd call it animal handling. It's an aberration, so dungeoneering gets it.

[alceryes]

That'd be a great call if it was a surface with a sticky substance on it.

Totally disagree
The fact that it's already 'stuck to me butt' trumps any supposed knowledge of whether 'this thing is supposed to be sticky' or not.

Remember, Wisdom is applied intelligence to achieve a favorable outcome, or avoid an unfavorable one.

The old adage from my 1st and 2nd ed. days comes to mind.
Intelligence - Tells you it's raining.
Wisdom - Tells you to get out of the rain or you'll catch a cold.

This is 100% a Wisdom roll.

[Peelee]

Totally disagree
The fact that it's already 'stuck to me butt' trumps any supposed knowledge of whether 'this thing is supposed to be sticky' or not.

Remember, Wisdom is applied intelligence to achieve a favorable outcome, or avoid an unfavorable one.

The old adage from my 1st and 2nd ed. days comes to mind.
Intelligence - Tells you it's raining.
Wisdom - Tells you to get out of the rain or you'll catch a cold.

This is 100% a Wisdom roll.

By this logic, if you're already sitting on a horse, then all you need is a Dex roll to keep your balance and ride it.

Also, staying in rain doesn't suddenly give you a virus.

[alceryes]

By this logic, if a horse is standing nearby, then all you need is a Dex roll to jump on its back and ride it.

They are nowhere near equivalent. Max jump height, knowledge of horseback riding, and horse reaction will come into play. I'm referring simply to a Wisdom check, based on objective knowledge, to know whether or not an action could lead to a negative outcome.


Also, staying in rain doesn't suddenly give you a virus.

Agreed. It is a rather simplified example of Wisdom.
However, it served its purpose, as I'm 100% sure you recognized the inference.

[danielxcutter]

That seems more like a Knowledge(Dungeoneering) check to know that mimics can do that, and then a Bluff check against Durkon's Sense Motive. The former is a class skill for him, and the latter is entirely with in the realm of d20 dice rolls.

[alceryes]

That seems more like a Knowledge(Dungeoneering) check to know that mimics can do that, and then a Bluff check against Durkon's Sense Motive. The former is a class skill for him, and the latter is entirely with in the realm of d20 dice rolls.

I'm actually not even considering bluff or dungeoneering (although they are possibility).

I'm just talking about a straight Wisdom check based on objective knowledge - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?"

[Metastachydium]

They are nowhere near equivalent. Max jump height, knowledge of horseback riding, and horse reaction will come into play. I'm referring simply to a Wisdom check, based on objective knowledge, to know whether or not an action could lead to a negative outcome.

That seems more like a Knowledge(Dungeoneering) check to know that mimics can do that, and then a Bluff check against Durkon's Sense Motive. The former is a class skill for him, and the latter is entirely with in the realm of d20 dice rolls.

It's certainly not a WIS check.
1. "Objective knowledge" falls under INT; the INT-based check that provides objective knowledge regarding aberrations is, as many have pointed out, called Knowledge (dungeoneering).
2. As a ranger, Belkar is supposed to be good with critters. Listening to the "expert" is certainly not unwise and if Durkon didn't trust him, the check he needed was not straight WIS but, as Daniel correctly highlights, an opposed Sense Motive against Belkar's Bluff. Belkar's a good liar, and fooled Durkon many a time.
3. Mimics are sapient creatures, capable of understanding Common. Durkon could have dismissed the advice to try and influence the stool's behaviour, but that would have required a CHA-based Diplomacy check.
4. Ability checks are uncommon. Being insightful or reckless as befits one's WIS score is roleplaying the score, not making WIS checks.

[Peelee]

They are nowhere near equivalent. Max jump height, knowledge of horseback riding, and horse reaction will come into play. I'm referring simply to a Wisdom check, based on objective knowledge, to know whether or not an action could lead to a negative outcome.
I slightly altered it while you were apparently writing your post, but I disagree with your assessment. They are more equivalent than you are treating them, because they are both treating how living creatures are reacting to you. This is an important facet that necessarily changes whta kind of check results.

I'm actually not even considering bluff or dungeoneering (although they are possibility).

I'm just talking about a straight Wisdom check based on objective knowledge - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?"

"One part of me is stuck to this creature. How will it react if I try to handle it in a specific way? "

It's not a gluey stool. It is a creature. It exudes its sticky substance and can dissolve it at will.

[alceryes]

1. "Objective knowledge" falls under INT; the INT-based check that provides objective knowledge regarding aberrations is, as many have pointed out, called Knowledge (dungeoneering).

100% agree. The actual objective knowledge itself is intelligence. Luckily, since he's already stuck to it, no check is needed - he knows things can stick to his stool/mimic.
Making a judgement using that knowledge in order to gain a favorable outcome (and avoid an unfavorable one) is wisdom.



2. As a ranger, Belkar is supposed to be good with critters. Listening to the "expert" is certainly not unwise and if Durkon didn't trust him, the check he needed was not straight WIS but, as Daniel correctly highlights, an opposed Sense Motive against Belkar's Bluff. Belkar's a good liar, and fooled Durkon many a time.
Again, I'm not even considering bluff, sense motive, or knowledge of the creature.


It's certainly not a WIS check.
3. Mimics are sapient creatures, capable of understanding Common. Durkon could have dismissed the advice to try and influence the stool's behaviour, but that would have required a CHA-based Diplomacy check.
This may come into play if you consider a dungeoneering check. I'm not.



4. Ability checks are uncommon. Being insightful or reckless as befits one's WIS score is roleplaying the score, not making WIS checks.
I understand your point here and I think I may have mis-represented the point I was trying to make. My point is not that a Wisdom check would've been made if this was a TT game. Yes, that's what I implied but not what I meant. :biggrin:

My point is that Durkon, with a wisdom of 22+, would've never gotten his hands stuck - regardless of Belkar's suggestion.

[Ruck]

Again, I'm not even considering bluff, sense motive, or knowledge of the creature.

I suppose it is easier to reduce the situation to your preferred factor if you dismiss the others out of hand, yeah.

[Peelee]

I understand your point here and I think I may have mis-represented the point I was trying to make. My point is not that a Wisdom check would've been made if this was a TT game. Yes, that's what I implied but not what I meant. :biggrin:

My point is that Durkon, with a wisdom of 22+, would've never gotten his hands stuck - regardless of Belkar's suggestion.

This is much more reasonable, but I still disagree, because of the main point that it's still a living creature. It can dissolve its glue whenever it wants. Durkon was told how to get it to dissolve its glue, and that advice as specifically regarding knowledge about how the creature reacts, from a person who would likely have such knowledge.

High wisdom doesn't mean you never make any mistakes.

[alceryes]

I suppose it is easier to reduce the situation to your preferred factor if you dismiss the others out of hand, yeah.

Yeah, again, I misspoke about there being a check needed.
I really meant that, with such high wisdom, Durkon would've probably brought his ass-in-stool right over to Belkar and have him 'squeeze the stress right out of it'. This is the wisest thing to do. After all, Belkar's the animal expert, right?


And now that I've wrote that, I think Rich missed a wonderful couple comic panes of banter between Durkon (with ass-in-stool) and Belkar, (who, of course, refuses to touch the thing). :smile:

[Laurentio III]

This is much more reasonable, but I still disagree, because of the main point that it's still a living creature. It can dissolve its glue whenever it wants. Durkon was told how to get it to dissolve its glue, and that advice as specifically regarding knowledge about how the creature reacts, from a person who would likely have such knowledge.
It's worth noting that it could have worked. It didn't because that particolar Mimic was not into massaging, and possibly because Durkon is bad at it. And wearing combat gloves.
So it was a possibly reasonable suggestion.

[Riftwolf]

It'd be a couple of checks imo
First Belkars Bluff vs Durkons Sense Motive
Then Durkon gets a Dungeoneering check to know if Belkars advice is a bad idea
There's no evidence Durkon, a skill point poor class, has Sense Motive or Dungeoneering, so it'd be Bluff vs Wis followed by Int. The bluff would be heavily modded by Belkars past track record, his apparent heel-face turn, and that Serini, who would definitely know about mimics, didn't gainsay him.

[danielxcutter]

Also Knowledge skills are Trained only, so if the DC is over I think 20 you can't make the roll at all.

[Tzardok]

Also Knowledge skills are Trained only, so if the DC is over I think 20 you can't make the roll at all.

Over 10. Otherwise correct.

[alceryes]

It'd be a couple of checks imo
First Belkars Bluff vs Durkons Sense Motive
Then Durkon gets a Dungeoneering check to know if Belkars advice is a bad idea
There's no evidence Durkon, a skill point poor class, has Sense Motive or Dungeoneering, so it'd be Bluff vs Wis followed by Int. The bluff would be heavily modded by Belkars past track record, his apparent heel-face turn, and that Serini, who would definitely know about mimics, didn't gainsay him.

I initially referenced a wisdom check but this is not a setting with any type of opposition. If Durkon wanted to take Belkar's advice then there's no checks needed, at all.

My only point revolved around this being an atypical move, given Durkon's high wisdom score - that's it. Period.

The idea that Durkon, with his ass already stuck to the stool, would then dive in with his hands is NOT a wise move, regardless of Belkar's advise. I think he should've gone over to Belkar, ass-in-stool, and let Belkar 'squeeze the stress right out of it'. That is something someone with a 22+ in wisdom would do.

[Doug Lampert]

Also Knowledge skills are Trained only, so if the DC is over I think 20 you can't make the roll at all.


Over 10. Otherwise correct.

And of course knowing ANYTHING about a creature or identifying one is DC 10+HD.

By the book, you can not identify a fellow human without training knowledge local, which is not a class skill for most people. This presumably explains a lot about where all the crossbreeds come from in D&D land.

Knowing anything significant about a mimic is DC 17, and thus can't be done untrained.

[Laurentio III]

By the book, you can not identify a fellow human without training knowledge local, which is not a class skill for most people. This presumably explains a lot about where all the crossbreeds come from in D&D land.
«I think it's a troll.»
«Yes, but you can't say for sure, can you? And she is winking at me.»
«"She"?»
«Recognizing the gender of a humanoid has a difficulty of just 5. So...»
«Still a troll, dude.»
«I'm taking my chances at it. Hold my pants.»

[Tzardok]

10 + hd is only a guideline. It is explicitely called out as something that can be corrected upwards or downwards for esspecially obscure or well-known creatures. Everything that is common knowledge has a dc of 10 or lower. Unless humans don't count as common knowledge for you, well...

[Metastachydium]

I initially referenced a wisdom check but this is not a setting with any type of opposition. If Durkon wanted to take Belkar's advice then there's no checks needed, at all.

My only point revolved around this being an atypical move, given Durkon's high wisdom score - that's it. Period.

The idea that Durkon, with his ass already stuck to the stool, would then dive in with his hands is NOT a wise move, regardless of Belkar's advise. I think he should've gone over to Belkar, ass-in-stool, and let Belkar 'squeeze the stress right out of it'. That is something someone with a 22+ in wisdom would do.

You might want to re-examine a couple of scenes with the guy, notably the memory with the frog, his proposing to Hilgya and several moments in the conversation with Redcloak. You might end up surprised.


Knowing anything significant about a mimic is DC 17, and thus can't be done untrained.

Interesting fact: this is 3.5; of course it can be if one built for it. Jack of All TradesCAdv is an easy workaround, for instance. (Being a chronotyryn is another, but few are cool enough to get to be a chronotyryn.)


Unless humans don't count as common knowledge for you, well...

[Clears throat Signals presence through vocalization.]

[Tzardok]

[Clears throat Signals presence through vocalization.]

Yeah, ok, fine, humans are obscure. They are so obscure, they don't even have an entry in the Monster Manual. Really, the knowledge dc to identify one should be in the 30s. It's a wonder anyone can even recognize one instead of confusing them with more common and well-known creatures like mongrelfolk.

[Doug Lampert]

10 + hd is only a guideline. It is explicitely called out as something that can be corrected upwards or downwards for esspecially obscure or well-known creatures. Everything that is common knowledge has a dc of 10 or lower. Unless humans don't count as common knowledge for you, well...

No it's not. The following is the entire SRD description of how to use the knowledge skills, the words common, or obscure, or adjust the DC never occur in anything here. It does say that the DC is "in general", but general use is the default for all rules, specific exceptions should be listed in an exception based system, which D&D 3.5 is.


Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

Below are listed typical fields of study.

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Action
Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.

Try Again
No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you get a +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic, desert, forest, hill, marsh, mountains, or plains).
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), you get a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you get a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.
Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, ok, fine, humans are obscure. They are so obscure, they don't even have an entry in the Monster Manual.

Right? RIGHT?


It's a wonder anyone can even recognize one instead of confusing them with more common and well-known creatures like mongrelfolk.

Yeah, exactly! (Or changelings, for that matter!)


No it's not. The following is the entire SRD description of how to use the knowledge skills, the words common, or obscure, or adjust the DC never occur in anything here. It does say that the DC is "in general", but general use is the default for all rules, specific exceptions should be listed in an exception based system, which D&D 3.5 is.

That happens quite a lot in later books, actually. MM4, exempli gratia, adds this to the general rule:

The description of the Knowledge skill indicates that in general, the baseline DC of checks to identify monsters and remember one bit of useful information about their special power or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster’s HD. Every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC yields another useful piece of information (PH 78). That addresses specific creatures very well, but there’s more to be said about creatures of general types. Consider the whisper demon as an example. It’s a 15 Hit Dice creature. That means that identifying it is a DC 25 check. This generally check will generally yield one bit of information, but since there are lowly 2 HD demons such as the dretch out there that share many of the demon and tanar’ri traits, it’s reasonable to give more information about it with the initial identification of the creature as a tanar’ri. As a general rule of thumb, a DC 15 check or higher will reveal all of the base creature’s type and subtype traits as defined in the glossary. This often includes information about energy resistance or various immunities. For instance, a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check reveals that dragons have high hit points (12-sided HD), all good saves, and have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. They are immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects. They eat, sleep,
and breathe. Information specific to the creature, such as its type of damage resistance, spell-like abilities, or immunities come with the high DC check results.

And then, it applies it in a manner contradicting the word of the rule (text trumps table, of course, but it's telling RAI-wise):


BLACK ROCK TRISKELION [26 HD] LORE
Characters with ranks in Knowledge (the planes) can learn
more about black rock triskelions. When a character makes a
successful skill check, the following lore is revealed, including
the information from lower DCs.

DC ResultKnowledge (the Planes)
18 This strange, rocky creature is obviously an
elemental. This result reveals all elemental traits
and the earth subtype.
28 This creature is a black rock triskelion, a servant of
Ogremoch, Prince of Evil Earth Elementals. Its
rocky body reduces damage from physical attacks.
33 A black rock triskelion’s fearsome arms strike like
heavy picks and can penetrate even adamantine to
deal devastating damage.
38 Triskelions are incredibly durable and can resist
spells and magical effects with their innate
toughness rather than reflexes.


The low DC varies wildly. Sometimes it's 15, sometimes it's a tad higher, sometimes it's 10+CR. It always provides the common denomination of the creature.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, exactly! (Or changelings, for that matter!)

changelings are all creature types (https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3AChangeling&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name). Their very LACK of defining characteristics is what defines them as a people. :D

[alceryes]

You might want to re-examine a couple of scenes with the guy, notably the memory with the frog, his proposing to Hilgya and several moments in the conversation with Redcloak. You might end up surprised.

Yeah. He has done some very unwise things. Including trying to massage the stress out of a mimic he's already stuck to.

[brian 333]

Let's overthink the crap out of this one!

DCs are the domain of the DM, who decides how rare or common a bit of information is in his world.

Are mimics well known in OotSworld? Humans are. Humans are everywhere.

Bellar knows things Durkon doesn't. He made a ferocious, man-eating dinosaur into his best buddy. Durkon didn't know how to do that. Was Durkon unwise to defer to Belkar's expertise?

Durkon has an established trait of not understanding the social cues of other races. He didn't know Roy wanted help when being eaten by a giant toad, for example. So to expect that he could in any way determine Belkar's motives is unrealistic.

But, an experienced animal handler who has demonstrated extreme proficiency in his profession, who offers advice in a reasonable tone of voice?

Why would Durkon even make a check?

[danielxcutter]

Durkon not helping Roy initially with the frog monster was related more to the plate accident shown in the same strip, remember?

I think in general he trusts Belkar not to lie about things that would be of serious detriment to the party though, which is why he mostly just falls for the petty-but-ultimately-not-serious pranks Belkar sets up.

[Ruck]

Yeah. He has done some very unwise things. Including trying to massage the stress out of a mimic he's already stuck to.

Right, so the former establishes the latter is in character. So what's the problem?

[Metastachydium]

Precisely. Durkon has a history of misapplying (or simply not using) that Wisdom score in manners more egregious than trusting an expert opinion provided by an ally he has begun to build a genuine rapport with lately.

[Kish]

A glance at Redcloak should indicate that Rich is using pretty complete gameplay/story segregation for the Wisdom score.

(Unless one thinks the sunk cost fallacy is not a fallacy and that saying "for the good of the goblin people" is the same thing as working dedicatedly for the good of the goblin people...but in that case that person is likely to find the story's denouement confusing, I suspect.)

Humans are super easy to know about not because the Knowledge rules don't cover them but because the "default" human is a first-level commoner, one hit die. And that didn't stop Celia from not realizing that they can't shoot electricity from their fingers.

[Metastachydium]

(Unless one thinks the sunk cost fallacy is not a fallacy and that saying "for the good of the goblin people" is the same thing as working dedicatedly for the good of the goblin people...but in that case that person is likely to find the story's denouement confusing, I suspect.)

(I will continue to maintain that the two do have an overlap of non-trivial dimensions, but I'm not as good with word pictures for making understanding as Oona is, so I'll leave it at that.)

[alceryes]

Right, so the former establishes the latter is in character. So what's the problem?

Both are inconsistent with a wisdom score of 22+.

[hamishspence]

"Wisdom scores" are a mechanic - they represent various things (will saves, clerical power, certain skills) - but they don't control "ability to avoid unwise choices".

[alceryes]

"Wisdom scores" are a mechanic - they represent various things (will saves, clerical power, certain skills) - but they don't control "ability to avoid unwise choices".

But is it not also a measured trait and characteristic of the individual? One that should be followed...?
(or, have I been playing D&D incorrectly for the past 35+ years?)

Anywho, not gonna banter about it further. I just think that his action wasn't indicative of an individual possessing a 22+ wisdom score, nuff said.

[brian 333]

Durkon trusts.

Is trusting unwise?

Who knows, if he hadn't panicked, the mimic probably would not have glued him in the first place, and if he hadn't panicked again, the deep tissue massage might have calmed the creature.

It's like meeting a strange dog: your fear triggers it's reaction. Calm confidence soothes it.

(Why didn't Minrah get stuck?)

[Crusher]

No it's not. The following is the entire SRD description of how to use the knowledge skills, the words common, or obscure, or adjust the DC never occur in anything here. It does say that the DC is "in general", but general use is the default for all rules, specific exceptions should be listed in an exception based system, which D&D 3.5 is.

The "Try Again No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place." part is hilarious.

[Crusher]

And that didn't stop Celia from not realizing that they can't shoot electricity from their fingers.

"Obscure" or not depends very much on who you're asking. Humans apparently were obscure to her.

[Riftwolf]

(Why didn't Minrah get stuck?)

She didn't panic and shout as she stood up.
Or her mimic was less anxious because mimics are distrustful of beards.
Or conservation of detail in the comic.
Or Maybelline.

[Laurentio III]

(Why didn't Minrah get stuck?)
I was going to answer, but I checked and Mimics are not gendered.
That makes my daydream of being a mimic in a beauty saloon a little weird.

[brian 333]

...a beauty saloon...

My new head canon: this phrase means, "a place where people go to drink until the person they are with becomes attractive."

[Vikenlugaid]

But is it not also a measured trait and characteristic of the individual? One that should be followed...?
(or, have I been playing D&D incorrectly for the past 35+ years?)

Anywho, not gonna banter about it further. I just think that his action wasn't indicative of an individual possessing a 22+ wisdom score, nuff said.

So you are saying a wise person shouldn't trust anyone, never.

[bunsen_h]

The "Try Again No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place." part is hilarious.

I wouldn't call it strictly accurate, though. Fairly regularly, I'm trying to remember a thing, and fail to come up with it immediately. But if I put the matter on my mental back burner, and try again a few minutes, hours, or days later, the information comes immediately to mind.

[Quizatzhaderac]

«I think it's a troll.»
«Yes, but you can't say for sure, can you? And she is winking at me.»
«"She"?»
«Recognizing the gender of a humanoid has a difficulty of just 5. So...»
«Still a troll, dude.»
«I'm taking my chances at it. Hold my pants.»
Tonight, on Waterdeep's favorite dating show: Troll or trollup!

[Metastachydium]

I wouldn't call it strictly accurate, though. Fairly regularly, I'm trying to remember a thing, and fail to come up with it immediately. But if I put the matter on my mental back burner, and try again a few minutes, hours, or days later, the information comes immediately to mind.

Man, I couldn't agree more!

[Peelee]

I wouldn't call it strictly accurate, though. Fairly regularly, I'm trying to remember a thing, and fail to come up with it immediately. But if I put the matter on my mental back burner, and try again a few minutes, hours, or days later, the information comes immediately to mind.

I don't know of a single time that's ever happened to me.

Edit: Actually, nevermind, I just thought of one.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know of a single time that's ever happened to me.

Edit: Actually, nevermind, I just thought of one.

Okay, that one got me.

[brian 333]

That's the same Knowledge roll, but you are taking 20.

[bunsen_h]

Tonight, on Waterdeep's favorite dating show: Troll or trollup!

I seem to recall that Robert Asprin used a similar joke in his "Myth Adventures" series -- inhabitants of one of the dimensions were called Trolls if male, Trollops if female.


Man, I couldn't agree more!

My strangest experience of that kind of thing was in my first year of university, taking an algebra course intended primarily for students planning to major in math. The prof wrote a problem on the board and told us to think about it for a few minutes, and that we'd be reviewing it in more depth in the tutorial hour which followed that class. I couldn't quite grasp the "shape" of it, so to speak, so I back-burnered it. And I started feeling really weird, like a chunk of my brain had kind of seized up. Tutorial hour came along, and we were shown that that category of problems could not be solved analytically... and my brain felt like it came back to normal.

I was a bit more careful about what kind of problems I fed to the back of my brain after that.

[Tzardok]

That's the same Knowledge roll, but you are taking 20.

You can't take 20 on skill checks that can't be repeated or have negative consequences for failing.

[brian 333]

You can't take 20 on skill checks that can't be repeated or have negative consequences for failing.

I really need to learn to use blue text.

[Tzardok]

I really need to learn to use blue text.

Or simply use an emoji. A wink or grin would've been enough. :smallredface:

[crayzz]

My strangest experience of that kind of thing was in my first year of university, taking an algebra course intended primarily for students planning to major in math. The prof wrote a problem on the board and told us to think about it for a few minutes, and that we'd be reviewing it in more depth in the tutorial hour which followed that class. I couldn't quite grasp the "shape" of it, so to speak, so I back-burnered it. And I started feeling really weird, like a chunk of my brain had kind of seized up. Tutorial hour came along, and we were shown that that category of problems could not be solved analytically... and my brain felt like it came back to normal.

I was a bit more careful about what kind of problems I fed to the back of my brain after that.

I find I have an instinct for what kinds of problems are solvable and what the 1st few steps might look like. It's pretty good and has helped me a lot over the years: being able to eyeball a set of equations and "feel" out the solution has been really helpful, it lets me dig out an analytical solution where most people are relying on approximations. But it's far from perfect and there have been a bunch of times where I "feel" like there should be a solution just waiting for me, only for me to discover after 3 days of maddening work that actually it's impossible and my instincts lied to me.

[bunsen_h]

I find I have an instinct for what kinds of problems are solvable and what the 1st few steps might look like. It's pretty good and has helped me a lot over the years: being able to eyeball a set of equations and "feel" out the solution has been really helpful, it lets me dig out an analytical solution where most people are relying on approximations. But it's far from perfect and there have been a bunch of times where I "feel" like there should be a solution just waiting for me, only for me to discover after 3 days of maddening work that actually it's impossible and my instincts lied to me.

At one point, I was nominally a TA for a course in engineering chemistry. It covered things that chemical engineers had to deal with: the equations for fluid mechanics, rates of flow in pipes, etc. I didn't know much about that stuff, but my job was to have an office hour once a week to help the students with the chemistry side of the subject, to do some marking, and to come up with a solution set for the problems in the course text (which had been written by the prof).

None of the students ever came for help, though my office hour was chosen to be compatible with the course schedule of students in that program. I recall that for one of the test questions, each of the dozen or so students came up with a different solution, none matching the prof's, with a wide range of numerical values. (The prof told me to give full marks for anything that looked reasonable. He was notably non-rigorous when it came to student evaluations.) And as for that solution set, I did my best, but one of the problems was beyond me. It looked fairly straightforward, but after I'd reduced the equations as far as I could, I got stuck. So I went to visit an undergrad friend of mine in the math department, who shared office space with a couple of math grad students. They looked at the thing, and demonstrated pretty conclusively that it could not be solved algebraically, at least not in the form I'd used. It turned out that the prof hadn't tried to work through the problem himself; he'd just made it up and assumed that it was solvable. So in my solution set, I gave my partial solution, with a note that an algebraic solution for the problem was probably impossible and was therefore left as an exercise for the interested student. I finished up by showing a couple of approaches for ways of determining the needed result, e.g. by iterated approximations. It seemed to me that though that was a good lesson to learn, it wasn't really within the intended scope of the material.

[Crusher]

You can't take 20 on skill checks that can't be repeated or have negative consequences for failing.

Apparently not true for real life. So, effectively a version difference.


I seem to recall that Robert Asprin used a similar joke in his "Myth Adventures" series -- inhabitants of one of the dimensions were called Trolls if male, Trollops if female..

I *loved* those books as a teen, but I have a feeling they've aged really poorly.

[danielxcutter]

I do find it weird that you can’t take 20 in a place like, say, a library.

[Tzardok]

I do find it weird that you can’t take 20 in a place like, say, a library.

I mean, a library supported Knowledge check is supposed to represent a fullblown research spree, with multiple books consulted, a bunch of references and propably an essay finished just before the deadline. Not only is it unlikely that at a second attempt the library suddenly has new books you haven't consulted before, nobody has the patience to repeat the same research 20 times just for the best possible result.

[Riftwolf]

I do find it weird that you can’t take 20 in a place like, say, a library.

Wouldn't the library be making the skill check in that case? You can't read books that haven't been written, no matter how many skill points you spend...

You have to use spell slots for that.

[bunsen_h]

Wouldn't the library be making the skill check in that case? You can't read books that haven't been written, no matter how many skill points you spend...

You have to use spell slots for that.

That would turn it into a 2-factor check: does the library have the information, and if so, can the info be found. Gandalf spent 17 years looking for information about Bilbo's ring, and finally found the old scroll that Isildur wrote, in the "library" of Minas Tirith. When I think about it, it's somewhat remarkable that the scroll was still legible and handleable after 3000+ years. It doesn't seem to have been given any particular care. Gandalf doesn't think that anyone has looked at it since the "fall of the kings" with the possible exception of Saruman, which suggests that that "library" isn't well indexed.

[Laurentio III]

Wouldn't the library be making the skill check in that case?
Don't be ridicolous, a library can't take a 20.
Unless it's a mimic library. And that would make reading a book a whole new kind of problems!

[brian 333]

Don't be ridicolous, a library can't take a 20.
Unless it's a mimic library. And that would make reading a book a whole new kind of problems!


Thank you for the new monster idea!

[Metastachydium]

That would turn it into a 2-factor check: does the library have the information, and if so, can the info be found. Gandalf spent 17 years looking for information about Bilbo's ring, and finally found the old scroll that Isildur wrote, in the "library" of Minas Tirith. When I think about it, it's somewhat remarkable that the scroll was still legible and handleable after 3000+ years. It doesn't seem to have been given any particular care. Gandalf doesn't think that anyone has looked at it since the "fall of the kings" with the possible exception of Saruman, which suggests that that "library" isn't well indexed.

Nah, once you have the library (Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), maybe Knowledge (n&r), Knowledge (local) or Knowledge (religion), with, perhaps, a tad bit of Gather Information mixed in), that would be a Search check and then a Decipher Script check (both INT-based, appropriately enough).

[mjasghar]

There are vellum books that have been dated to 600 CE so it’s not as if there wouldn’t be a 3000 year old scroll - {scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

There are vellum books that have been dated to 600 CE so it’s not as if there wouldn’t be a 3000 year old scroll - {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[dancrilis]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I believe that was more:
a) An item of similiar make ~1400 years old has been found intact.
b) given 'a' above it should not be considered impossible to find an item of similiar structure to be ~3000 years old.

{scrubbed} a better example might be papyrus scrolls found from fourth dynasty of the old kingdom (~4600 years ago).

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Change topics. At the very least to different ancient documents.

[Eric the White]

{scrubbed}

1400 years is very different than 3000 years.

[brian 333]

Magical preservation would make things last longer.

[Riftwolf]

That would turn it into a 2-factor check: does the library have the information, and if so, can the info be found. Gandalf spent 17 years looking for information about Bilbo's ring, and finally found the old scroll that Isildur wrote, in the "library" of Minas Tirith. When I think about it, it's somewhat remarkable that the scroll was still legible and handleable after 3000+ years. It doesn't seem to have been given any particular care. Gandalf doesn't think that anyone has looked at it since the "fall of the kings" with the possible exception of Saruman, which suggests that that "library" isn't well indexed.

My headcanon is that because Middle Earth runs by different physical laws than the real world, the rules of decomposition aren't the same either. Maybe the will of Sauron keeps clues about the Ring intact in the hopes of tempting people into searching.

[Fyraltari]

That would turn it into a 2-factor check: does the library have the information, and if so, can the info be found. Gandalf spent 17 years looking for information about Bilbo's ring, and finally found the old scroll that Isildur wrote, in the "library" of Minas Tirith. When I think about it, it's somewhat remarkable that the scroll was still legible and handleable after 3000+ years. It doesn't seem to have been given any particular care. Gandalf doesn't think that anyone has looked at it since the "fall of the kings" with the possible exception of Saruman, which suggests that that "library" isn't well indexed.

I think the most likley explanation is that this library (or section of the library) was forgotten about for centuries and if it's a dry room (which I would expect, since library) the contents could have been well preserved.

[mjasghar]

1400 years is very different than 3000 years.

Not by much in the scheme of things
In a relatively dry atmosphere vellum lasts ages and if the ink is actually gold or similar non reactive minerals it’s fine.
I’ve seen references to 5000 year old vellum

[brian 333]

I think the most likley explanation is that this library (or section of the library) was forgotten about for centuries and if it's a dry room (which I would expect, since library) the contents could have been well preserved.

Isildur was a Numenorian. They were famous for their casual use of magic items and their knowledge of how their world works. He wasn't jotting down notes on mass-produced loose leaf college ruled paper.

My headcanon is that he, casually and without thinking too much about it, used magically treated parchment and ink. That's just the way they did things, back then.

Numenorians didn't cast spells, but they learned their writing system, including how to manufacture their tools, from the elves. Most of the elves who survived the battle with Sauron were still alive, and they would have wanted their notebooks to remain readable at least until they sailed into the West.

[Riftwolf]

Isildur was a Numenorian. They were famous for their casual use of magic items and their knowledge of how their world works. He wasn't jotting down notes on mass-produced loose leaf college ruled paper.

My headcanon is that he, casually and without thinking too much about it, used magically treated parchment and ink. That's just the way they did things, back then.

Numenorians didn't cast spells, but they learned their writing system, including how to manufacture their tools, from the elves. Most of the elves who survived the battle with Sauron were still alive, and they would have wanted their notebooks to remain readable at least until they sailed into the West.

That'd explain why it took Gandalf 17 years of research if Numenorians wrote everything down on long-life magical paper. All those receipts for bad copper...

[bunsen_h]

That'd explain why it took Gandalf 17 years of research if Numenorians wrote everything down on long-life magical paper. All those receipts for bad copper...

"Dear diary, I never thought this would happen to me. There's this Elvish girl, Lauri, who always seemed to ignore me..."

Not to mention the reams of Numenorian fanfic.

[KorvinStarmast]

In comparison, Galadriel is handed a scroll by an archivist in Numenor a few hours after she gives him a request; he was the curator of a huge archive filled with scrolls. (Scene from Rings of Power).

I guess that the OG Numenoreans had far more competent librarians in their capital, but none of them liked to travel and were of course drowned when the world changed.
It thus came to pass that the Nuevo-Numenoreans in Middle Earth had lesser librarians.

Melvil Dewey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewey_Decimal_Classification) could have made a fortune as a consultant.

[Emmit Svenson]

Both are inconsistent with a wisdom score of 22+.

It's in the realm of Sense Motive, which is a Wisdom-based skill that I can completely believe Durkon has never put a single point into. +6 and bad rolls are enough to justify how often he misses others' social cues.

[Riftwolf]

It's in the realm of Sense Motive, which is a Wisdom-based skill that I can completely believe Durkon has never put a single point into. +6 and bad rolls are enough to justify how often he misses others' social cues.

The thread has moved on. We're now discussing the Librarianship of Second Age Archivists.

[hroþila]

That'd explain why it took Gandalf 17 years of research if Numenorians wrote everything down on long-life magical paper. All those receipts for bad copper...
Ah yes, Eä-Narsil.

In comparison, Galadriel is handed a scroll by an archivist in Numenor a few hours after she gives him a request; he was the curator of a huge archive filled with scrolls. (Scene from Rings of Power).
Sir. SIR.

(I sorta kinda liked the series but still)

[brian 333]

The Librarian's last day:

"Sir? A Mr.Isildur has an overdue copy of The Care And Feeding Of White Trees. Shall I impose late fees on his account?"

"Let's give him a few days."

"But, Sir, if we don't maintain strict return policies..."

"What's the worst that can happen? The island won't sink beneath the waves over an overdue library book."

*rumblerumblerumbleRUMBLE!*

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm thinking that Tolkien would actually have a pretty good idea how long it takes to find references to something in a thousand year old scroll, being as that his profession involved thousand year old texts.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm thinking that Tolkien would actually have a pretty good idea how long it takes to find references to something in a thousand year old scroll, being as that his profession involved thousand year old texts. He was also, as a pipe smoker, very familiar with the blowing of smoke rings. :smallsmile:

[dave_smith354]

Isildur was a Numenorian. They were famous for their casual use of magic items and their knowledge of how their world works. He wasn't jotting down notes on mass-produced loose leaf college ruled paper.

My headcanon is that he, casually and without thinking too much about it, used magically treated parchment and ink. That's just the way they did things, back then.

Numenorians didn't cast spells, but they learned their writing system, including how to manufacture their tools, from the elves. Most of the elves who survived the battle with Sauron were still alive, and they would have wanted their notebooks to remain readable at least until they sailed into the West.

I'm thinking perhaps a race with lifespans of 1,000-3,000 years might have a significant stabilising effect on linguistic drift. On the other hand they are few in number compared to humans, and might not want to be prescriptivists.

Also I just realized they have their own language, and barely a handful actually bothered to learn the languages of men through the ages. Still, I don't think we can make comparisons with our reality, it's clear Middle Earth had far superior preservation (magically enhanced or otherwise). Perhaps it's just something we shouldn't look at too closely.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm thinking perhaps a race with lifespans of 1,000-3,000 years might have a significant stabilising effect on linguistic drift.
300-500 years. Elros died in about 450 SA. Nobody else was as long lived as he. His reign lasted 410 years.

[elros]

300-500 years. Elros died in about 450 SA. Nobody else was as long lived as he. His reign lasted 410 years.
Long live the king ;-)

[brian 333]

300-500 years. Elros died in about 450 SA. Nobody else was as long lived as he. His reign lasted 410 years.

And elves don't die at all unless they are killed. Galadriel lived at least from before the crossing of the ice until the defeat of Sauron. My guess is 5000 years, and still kicking. Legolas' father probably remembered the first stars being set in the sky.