Making BAB more relevant and interesting - PEACH

[Halrax]

Prelude: I'm the sort of person who spends hundreds of hours making homebrew without any realistic intention of ever seeing it played. Figured I should start posting some of it to get some evaluations and reality checks, and maybe some people could find it interesting enough to use.

In RAW 3.5, BAB does a few things:
1. It adds to all attack rolls, grapple checks, and Sense Motive vs feinting
2. It qualifies for prerequisites for feats and prestige classes
3. Certain (but very few) feats scale with BAB, but only Power Attack matters
4. It allows drawing and moving at the same time at BAB +1
5. It gives additional iteratives on full attacks at BAB +6/+11/etc.

This is a bit of a high powered variant that makes it do more things. BAB now does the following:
1. It adds to all attack rolls, grapple checks, and Sense Motive vs feinting
2. It qualifies for prerequisites for feats and prestige classes
3. Many feats including most basic combat feats scale with BAB
4. It allows drawing and moving at the same time at BAB +1
5. It gives additional iteratives on full attacks at BAB +6/+11/etc.
6. It gives additional iteratives on standard attacks at BAB +8/+15/etc.
7. It allows iteratives as a swift action at BAB +10/+19/etc.
8. It allows X AoO each round, where X is 1/2/3/etc. at BAB +1/+6/+11/etc.
9. Half BAB is added to initiative

Note that all iteratives have a -5 penalty regardless of the number of iteratives or type of action needed, and the iteratives from #6 apply on Spring Attack, Flyby Attack, and charges but not AoO or attacks granted by maneuvers. Also, bonus attacks from natural weapons, TWF, etc. that only apply on full attacks still only apply on full attacks, though the TWF feat tree is altered to work with these rules.
#8 means that characters with BAB +0 can't make AoO, which simplifies level one combat.

Feat overhaul that I don't have space to post here removes/alters the key feats for uber-charging builds to balance THF/PA/charge vs other fighting styles, so Pounce/Travel Devotion/other way to move and full attack are not quite as necessary, though still useful. High Dexterity and Combat Reflexes aren't needed for control builds since one gets more AoO from BAB, but they're still useful. High level characters now have native uses for swift actions, and initiative does scale as one levels but in a way that favors martials.

This was kind of meant to make BAB as important as WoTC clearly thought of it as when they were balancing the ranger vs the druid (among other comparisons) and tries to provide even SRD fighters with a choice of viable options (full attack vs move and standard attack, swift used on magic items vs on attacks, feats that are equally powerful depending on the situation) other than making one of a few good melee builds and doing that thing over and over again every round in every combat.

Thoughts? Does this somehow violate some principle of the game design that I didn't notice, or does it just force some classes to move up or down half a tier and change the build meta? I'll post some of the rewritten BAB-scaling feats in the next few days hopefully.

[Metastachydium]

Prelude: I'm the sort of person who spends hundreds of hours making homebrew without any realistic intention of ever seeing it played. Figured I should start posting some of it to get some evaluations and reality checks, and maybe some people could find it interesting enough to use.

In RAW 3.5, BAB does a few things:
1. It adds to all attack rolls, grapple checks, and Sense Motive vs feinting
2. It qualifies for prerequisites for feats and prestige classes
3. Certain (but very few) feats scale with BAB, but only Power Attack matters
4. It allows drawing and moving at the same time at BAB +1
5. It gives additional iteratives on full attacks at BAB +6/+11/etc.

This is a bit of a high powered variant that makes it do more things. BAB now does the following:
1. It adds to all attack rolls, grapple checks, and Sense Motive vs feinting
2. It qualifies for prerequisites for feats and prestige classes
3. Many feats including most basic combat feats scale with BAB

Examples beyond the obvious (khm, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and the like, khm)?


6. It gives additional iteratives on standard attacks at BAB +8/+15/etc.

Not sure about that one.


7. It allows iteratives as a swift action at BAB +10/+19/etc.

Some form of this is definitely a good idea, and certainly better than standard action iteratives: one expends a resource for gaining a benefit. Simple, elegant and doesn't step on full-attack's toes.


8. It allows X AoO each round, where X is 1/2/3/etc. at BAB +1/+6/+11/etc.

(…)

#8 means that characters with BAB +0 can't make AoO, which simplifies level one combat.

(…)

High Dexterity and Combat Reflexes aren't needed for control builds since one gets more AoO from BAB, but they're still useful.

I'm not a fan of that. The BAB +0 nerf is nasty (if temporary) and Combat Reflexes is one of the core feats there's nothing wrong with. I'm also not sure I see how the two would interact. Is that 8 AoOs at level 11 with full BAB and DEX 18?


9. Half BAB is added to initiative

Now, that's the sort of love martials need, although I'd make it more incremental (like the thing with iteratives).

[Halrax]

Examples beyond the obvious (khm, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and the like, khm)?
Combat Expertise (renamed to Defensive Expertise), the corresponding feat Offensive Expertise (plus fighting defensively is changed and has corresponding fighting offensively inspired by Reckless Offense from XPH but that's a whole other post), Dodge, Power Attack (still), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, plus a lot of feats that interact with the new rules (the Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz line, the Two Weapon Fighting/ITWF/GTWF line, ranged combat feats)


Not sure about that one.
Martials tend to need a way to full attack and move in the same turn, this means full attacks still get the full attack things (iteratives, natural weapons, TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.) while standard attacks get less (only iteratives, and usually fewer of them), with feats that boost both options (for example, ITWF allows one off-hand attack on a standard attack and a full set of off-hand iteratives on a full attack). Also note that I've occasionally seen threads suggesting full attacking as a standard action, and this is a very much toned down version of that.


Some form of this is definitely a good idea, and certainly better than standard action iteratives: one expends a resource for gaining a benefit. Simple, elegant and doesn't step on full-attack's toes.
Thanks. It's only at high levels that it comes into play (especially for medium BAB martials, who only get BAB +10 at 14th level) and one attack isn't necessarily that much better than activating a swift action magic item (of which there are a lot) or some other swift action ability.[/QUOTE]


I'm not a fan of that. The BAB +0 nerf is nasty (if temporary) and Combat Reflexes is one of the core feats there's nothing wrong with. I'm also not sure I see how the two would interact. Is that 8 AoOs at level 11 with full BAB and DEX 18?
I think that very few PCs or opponents will have BAB +0. 1st level PCs with poor or even medium BAB often aren't going to be making AoO anyway, and that stops being a consideration after the 1st adventure.
Monsters with BAB +0 are either opponents at 1st level and/or encountered in large numbers, and when running a combat vs, say, 8 basic goblins you don't want to track the singular AoO from each one. If you really want to make a low level control encounter you can have the controller take Combat Reflexes (which it was going to have to do anyway) or just let it have BAB +1 (such as from Fighter 1 or 2 racial HD).
BAB +11, Dex 18, Combat Reflexes is 7 AoO per round (3 from BAB+4 from Dex), though Combat Reflexes also allows making AoO when flat-footed.


Now, that's the sort of love martials need, although I'd make it more incremental (like the thing with iteratives).
+1 every 2 points of BAB (every 2-4 levels) isn't incremental enough? /s
It's actually not that big a difference. Even for full BAB classes at double digit levels, it's not much better than the Nerveskitter spell or the Warning weapon enhancement (+5 each) though those take up a spell slot/immediate action and gold respectively, and the benefit relative to a poor BAB class effectively halves it (level 12 fighter vs level 12 wizard = +6 vs +3 = +3 difference).

It really makes a difference for monsters with inflated HD numbers and/or full BAB, like dragons, giants, magical beasts, outsiders, and vermin, letting them keep up with PC's initiative boosting items a bit better. Also between high level and low level PCs/NPCs.

[Metastachydium]

Combat Expertise (renamed to Defensive Expertise), the corresponding feat Offensive Expertise (plus fighting defensively is changed and has corresponding fighting offensively inspired by Reckless Offense from XPH but that's a whole other post), Dodge, Power Attack (still), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, plus a lot of feats that interact with the new rules (the Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz line, the Two Weapon Fighting/ITWF/GTWF line, ranged combat feats)

Hm. Sounds good (although Dodge probably needs more than that to escape from the garbage bin).


Martials tend to need a way to full attack and move in the same turn, this means full attacks still get the full attack things (iteratives, natural weapons, TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.) while standard attacks get less (only iteratives, and usually fewer of them), with feats that boost both options (for example, ITWF allows one off-hand attack on a standard attack and a full set of off-hand iteratives on a full attack). Also note that I've occasionally seen threads suggesting full attacking as a standard action, and this is a very much toned down version of that.

(…)

Thanks. It's only at high levels that it comes into play (especially for medium BAB martials, who only get BAB +10 at 14th level) and one attack isn't necessarily that much better than activating a swift action magic item (of which there are a lot) or some other swift action ability.

Hm. Fair-ish. Anyhow, I spy with my little photoreceptive cells a retooled fighter that gets these early.


+1 every 2 points of BAB (every 2-4 levels) isn't incremental enough? /s
It's actually not that big a difference. Even for full BAB classes at double digit levels, it's not much better than the Nerveskitter spell or the Warning weapon enhancement (+5 each) though those take up a spell slot/immediate action and gold respectively, and the benefit relative to a poor BAB class effectively halves it (level 12 fighter vs level 12 wizard = +6 vs +3 = +3 difference).

Well, I don't exactly love Nerveskitter, so… (Oh, and does that mean this doesn't stack with Warning and stuff?)


It really makes a difference for monsters with inflated HD numbers and/or full BAB, like dragons, giants, magical beasts, outsiders, and vermin, letting them keep up with PC's initiative boosting items a bit better. Also between high level and low level PCs/NPCs.

Honestly, I'm not sure what we need is more tools to enable HD-bloat for beatstick monsters.

[Halrax]

Hm. Sounds good (although Dodge probably needs more than that to escape from the garbage bin).
Keeping in mind that these feats are balanced around Power Attack, Extend Spell, Shape Soulmeld, etc. (anything on Grod's Best Feats of 3.5 list): The decision to fight defensively/offensively is made as normal, giving a bonus of up to BAB on AC (dodge)/attacks and taking twice that as a penalty to attacks/AC.
Defensive/Offensive Expertise both require Int 13, BAB +1, shift the BAB limiter to the penalty rather than the bonus, and make the bonus 1x/2x/3x/etc. the penalty at BAB +1/+8/+15. Also, all the feats that used to require Power Attack instead require Offensive Expertise and Int 13, and the feat Canny Fighter (requires BAB +1) counts as having Int 13, Defensive Exp, and Offensive Exp for prerequisites (but not the actual benefits).
Dodge requires Dex 13, BAB +1 and gives +2/+3/+4/etc. dodge to AC at BAB +1/+6/+11/etc. Weapon Focus requires BAB +1 and gives the same bonus on attacks with a specific weapon. Weapon Specialization isn't fighter specific (just WF, BAB +4) and adds BAB to damage with the chosen weapon. GWF (requires WF, WS, BAB +8) doubles the bonus of WF and removes the -5 penalty for iterative attacks.
Power Attack is normal except it also applies 1:1 for thrown weapons.


Hm. Fair-ish. Anyhow, I spy with my little photoreceptive cells a retooled fighter that gets these early.
The feat Quick Attacks (requires BAB +2) improves effective BAB by 4 for anything that relies on thresholds (iteratives, AoO, Dodge, Defensive Exp) but not the bonus itself (attack rolls, initiative bonus, fighting defensively, Power Attack).
I'm also adapting a lot (~200) of homebrew and official classes, and the idea of improving effective BAB in this matter comes up a lot when making martial or gish classes. I actually just used it for a class with temporary specific bonus feats, giving +2 effective BAB for every overlapping one. Might use it in some of the adapted races (again ~200) too. You can tell I do this for a hobby rather than with the expectation of actual use.


Well, I don't exactly love Nerveskitter, so… (Oh, and does that mean this doesn't stack with Warning and stuff?)
It stacks with everything since it's an untyped bonus (I think Warning is insight). Also trying to have rules that reduce the "initiative roll winning fights/rocket tag" problem that exists at higher levels, so going first is useful but not that useful. A lot of the rules I make trend in the opposite direction, though (having large dodge bonuses, lightning rounds for huge initiative results, some others). Some changes for stopping it is making in-combat healing viable, adapting a wounds mechanic to make a damage type limited per round, making it easier to boost saves, and having gradual or partial effects (such as a demoralize rework). Trying to see if having a way to just shrug off effects for hp and possibly an action be a universal mechanic will help or hurt high level play. That's all a bunch of other posts that are out of the scope of this one though.


Honestly, I'm not sure what we need is more tools to enable HD-bloat for beatstick monsters.
Sort of the opposite, since it makes HD-Bloat more powerful and thus the number of HD is less. Just like undead having poor HD and no Con led designers to make undead with lots of HD or bonus hp based on Cha to make up for it, this does similar things (to a far lesser extent) for other creature types obviating the need for HD-Bloat. Design-wise, it means solo boss types are more likely to go first, while mook types are more likely to have to react.

Looking at the SRD, a Frost Giant (CR 9, BAB +10, init -1->+4) is probably behind a lot of the PCs, while Ogre minions (CR 3, BAB +3, init -1->+0) are likely to fall behind. If the Frost Giants are encountered in a group or as a pair following a Storm Giant (CR 13, BAB +14, init +2->+9) then they'll be even more behind and even the Storm Giant has a chance of going after at least one or two PCs.
An Adult Red Dragon (CR 15, BAB +22, init +0->+11) will probably go before some or most of the PCs, but it's expected of a boss monster that it'll at least get one or two breath weapons in before losing a save-or-die effect.
A Manticore (CR 5, BAB +6, init +2->+5) will have a decent chance of going first, but it was going to spend the first few rounds launching spikes before closing to melee, and the PCs were going to spend the first few rounds buffing/healing/activating flight anyway, so going first just limits the number of rounds the PCs have to prep for melee or use ranged attacks before the fight closes. And +3 isn't that big a difference, it's less than a feat.
Nightwalkers (CR 16, BAB +10, init +6->+11) deserve to be able to go first, especially with all the combat options they have, and by level 16 the PCs will probably be able to match it (+4 Dex, +6 half BAB, +4 Improved Initiative) fairly easily anyway.
And these examples are picked to have a large impact. A Mimic (CR 4, BAB +5, init +1->+3) isn't even worth mentioning. If anything this only partially makes up for initiative boosting items, spells, and other abilities.

[Metastachydium]

I see.

Now, I'll be honest: it's a tad bit difficult to assess the contents of your 400+ page magnum opus (interesting as it may sound) when one apparently misses a lot of key context all around. Any intention to share something more substantial around here?