Soulknife Rogue/Monk build

[Maus91]

TL;DR - I have a sneaky, skillful, speedy rogue/monk build. Do I have it right? Should I be considering other options?

I have this idea of playing a very stealthy, very mobile character who has several tricks up her unarmored sleeves.

We're still playing with 5e rules here, including some optional class features and I've come up with a Tabaxi Rogue/Monk currently at Level 1 with 18DEX, 15WIS, 15CON, 14CHA, 10STR, and 8INT. I wanted to start out as a Rogue for the sweet extra proficiencies (not to mention the relevant Racial proficiencies too) and starting with the Sneak Attack damage wielding a normal Rapier or maybe Shortsword. Then 2 levels of monk for Unarmored Defense (AC=10+DEX+WIS) and Martial Arts with Cats Claws as unarmed attack hitting with d6 DMG (instead of d4) + DEX, including if I use Ki Points at Level 2 with Flurry of Blows. We get some overlapping of features going back to Rogue levels 2-4, and lots of different options for bonus actions (movement and attacks) at this point.

At Level 3 of Rogue, I want to take Soulknife but I feel like the Psychic Blades are just about wasted as I can make my rapier a monk weapon with the optional class feature (from Tasha's, I think) and still get Sneak Attack damage, and still follow it up with Flurry of Blows or just a regular 2nd Unarmed attack from the Martial Arts feature. But I think that the Psi-Bolstered Knack (adding a Psionic die roll to a failed skill check that is ONLY used up if it succeeds) and the Psionic Whispers (telepathic communication within a mile for at least 1 hour) are good enough that it doesn't matter if I have the Psychic Blades or not.

I do like the idea of Psychic Blades and sneaking into a fort or castle or dungeon or whatever seemingly without any weapons or armor only to have the blades manifest themselves right at the point of attack and then leaving no visible wounds, that is just too cool. The problem, of course is that those psi blades are only d6s and the followup attack with the off hand psi blade is only d4, even if I do get to add Sneak Attack to the first attack and DEX to both, I would always do better with a monk rapier (d8+DEX+Sneak Attack) and unarmed attack (d6+DEX), then at Monk 5 those psi blades become even more pointless as they can't be used with the second attack.

Movement also ends up being insane with this build. Feline Agility let's my character double their speed on one turn during combat, and it recharges when she moves 0ft on any following turn. Then unarmed movement adds 10ft at Monk 2 then changes to +15ft at Monk 6. So at character level 3 (Rogue 1, Monk 2) my gal can move 80ft during combat and still have an action and bonus action on deck. At character level 4 (Rogue 2, Monk 2) she is still has those 80 ft that can be used in regular movement and then bonus action to Disengage with whatever is left, or even bonus action Dash to move another 80ft(?) or is it just 40ft? Either way, it's a lot. I might take the Mobile Feat at some point just to drive my DM crazy. Oh also, she has a climbing speed that matches her walking speed, so there's that too.

So questions. Does what I describe above sound right? Am I possibly misinterpreting some rules? Does anyone want to try to talk me out of Soulknife? Again, I don't have a problem with several options for my Bonus Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide, Unarmed Attack, Flurry of Blows) and I don't mind adding more options with Feats or a Monk subclass. After Rogue 4, Monk 2, I am not sure how my progression will go between the 2 classes, but I won't go farther than Monk 6, and probably farther (and faster) with Rogue (also toying with slipping in Fighter 2 in there somewhere maybe). So last questions. What feats might I consider (I was kidding about Mobile . . . mostly) and what Monk subclass do you think would fit this build? I like Way of the Shadow, but I'm open to other ideas. Thanks for any comments.

[Dork_Forge]

Ask your DM if you can just make Extra Attack with your Psychic Blades, same with opportunity attacks, as a lot of the time this is more white room issues than real-world issues. I would be tempted to say just start as a Monk, you'll get a skill from MCing into Rogue anyway and Tabaxi does some heavy lifting for the Rogue feel. This gets your unarmored feel online faster, your speed bump faster, then you can mainline Rogue for a while to get your Soulknife goodies, Expertise etc.

I wouldn't think too much about damage, using a Rapier is not substantially better unless you have a particularly good magic version, the one average damage just doesn't really matter most of the time.

[Pooky the Imp]

I actually asked about the same build not so long ago, so you might find some of the responses helpful:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?641644-Soulknife-Monk-Multiclass-Anyone-tried-this

[Psyren]

There's some anti-synergy here. You can't combine Psychic Blades' bonus action attack with Martial Arts or Flurry, rogue dilutes your ki while monk dilutes your sneak attack and psychic dice progression, and Monk also delays your bonus action teleport ability which is highly likely to outperform the monk's mobility anyway. Personally if I wanted to be an unarmed character behind enemy lines I would just be a straight Soulknife; you get to wear armor that way too, and can spread your stats a bit more instead of needing to pump Wisdom alongside Dex (e.g. having more to put into Int, Con, and Cha.)

[RogueJK]

I do like the idea of Psychic Blades and sneaking into a fort or castle or dungeon or whatever seemingly without any weapons or armor only to have the blades manifest themselves right at the point of attack and then leaving no visible wounds, that is just too cool.

The problem, of course is that those psi blades are only d6s and the followup attack with the off hand psi blade is only d4, even if I do get to add Sneak Attack to the first attack and DEX to both, I would always do better with a monk rapier (d8+DEX+Sneak Attack) and unarmed attack (d6+DEX)

You cannot sneak attack with Unarmed Strikes. Even though Monk allows you to use DEX for unarmed strikes, it does not turn an unarmed strike into a Finesse or Ranged weapon, which is a requirement for Sneak Attack. Even having Tabaxi claws doesn't change that fact.

So if you go with the Monk Rapier route, and miss with your lone Rapier attack, you could not attempt to Sneak Attack with your BA unarmed strikes. And if you're attempting to infiltrate somewhere with no weapons, you won't have a Rapier anyway...

Whereas a Psychic Blades would allow you to land a Sneak Attack with either your primary Attack or your BA attack.

Also, Psychic Blades do psychic damage, which is rarely resisted. Whereas you have to worry about getting a magic rapier at some point, and taking at least 6 Monk levels to make your unarmed strikes magical, in order to bypass the common B/P/S resistance.

Besides, keep in mind that the damage difference between 1d8/1d6 or 1d6/1d4 is one point of average damage. That's miniscule, compared to your ever-expanding pile of Sneak Attack dice that results from continuing to invest in Rogue levels.


So skip the Monk levels. Use Mage Armor for your unarmored AC instead, which lasts 8 hours (so basically the entire adventuring day on one casting). With 18 DEX, your AC is 17, equivalent to Half Plate armor. Once you bump your DEX to 20, your AC is 18, equivalent to Full Plate armor. (Either one is higher than your 16 AC if you were to go the Monk Unarmored Defense route, and it would require two ASIs - so 8+ levels - before your Monk Unarmored AC would equal 18.)

Alongside Psychic Blades, this has your "unarmed/unarmored infiltration" needs covered. You can walk into the ballroom wearing nothing but a fancy tuxedo, and still be fully combat capable.

For the Mage Armor route, you could do a straight Soulknife with no multiclass dip, taking the Magic Initiate Wizard/Sorcerer feat for Mage Armor 1x/day and a couple utility cantrips (like Mage Hand to stick with the psychic theme), or the Eldritch Adept feat for Armor of Shadows (which lets you cast Mage Armor at will). You already have an 18 DEX from the start, which puts you well ahead of the stat curve, so you can easily spare the ASI for one of these two feats at Rogue 4. Heck you could even spare two ASIs, taking something like Mobile at Rogue 8 for added movement, and then finally boosting your DEX to 20 at Rogue 10, which is still maxing out your primary stat before the average PC.

Or drop your WIS/CHA and boost your INT to 14-16, and take a 2 level dip into Bladesinger Wizard. This lets you pick up not only Mage Armor but also additional defensive spells like Shield and Absorb Elements and/or some sneaky infiltration spells like Disguise Self, Silent Image, and Feather Fall, plus some useful cantrips like Message, Minor Illusion, and Mage Hand. And when you need an even further defensive boost, you can trigger Bladesong for additional unarmored AC and even faster movement speed (which is also doubled with your Tabaxi ability). Plus your Bladesong uses per day scale with Proficiency, not Wizard levels, so you don't have to worry about taking more than 2 levels and can focus on just Soulknife levels from there to get your higher level abilities and larger Sneak Attacks online ASAP. I'd probably do Rogue 1 -> Wizard 1 -> Rogue 3 -> Wizard 2 -> Rogue X.

[Person_Man]

Monk/Rogue really doesn’t work, for the reasons detailed above. However, you could ask the DM for a homebrew Feat or hand wave, to allow Sneak Attack to be usable with unarmed strikes, to allow the levels of each class to stack for determining Kai pool and psychic die progression. Since both classes are on the weaker end of the power spectrum at mid-high levels, and you only have one Bonus Action (limiting most synergies), it would not be unreasonable.

[Maus91]

So I think an issue here is that I wasn't clear enough. I'm aware that the use of the Psychic Blades creates problems with damage. What I'm talking about though is just ignoring them (except if/when I get in a situation where I have to be supremely sneaky and not leave any traces). So I would pretty much only use the psionic dice for Psi-Bolstered Knack and Psionic Whispers until I get to Rogue 9 where I can use the Psi blades to teleport. In combat, I'd use a shortsword as a monk weapon and Sneak Attack damage and my Cat's Claws (Tabaxi feature) for d6 damage on Flurry of Blows or just regular Bonus Action Martial Arts attack.

To further clarify, I'm also aware of too many options for my Bonus Action with this build, but I really don't mind. I do think I need to talk to my DM more about how things might work exactly. I'll probably reskin my psi blades to appear as shiruken when thrown, and sai when in melee. The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this build.

[Dork_Forge]

So I think an issue here is that I wasn't clear enough. I'm aware that the use of the Psychic Blades creates problems with damage. What I'm talking about though is just ignoring them (except if/when I get in a situation where I have to be supremely sneaky and not leave any traces). So I would pretty much only use the psionic dice for Psi-Bolstered Knack and Psionic Whispers until I get to Rogue 9 where I can use the Psi blades to teleport. In combat, I'd use a shortsword as a monk weapon and Sneak Attack damage and my Cat's Claws (Tabaxi feature) for d6 damage on Flurry of Blows or just regular Bonus Action Martial Arts attack.

Assuming that your DM doesn't give you hassle about Psychic Blades with Extra Attack, there's no reason to use a shortsword for your attacks at all. The blades count as simple weapons, there's no real reason you couldn't do your main attacks with the blades and flurry with your claws.


To further clarify, I'm also aware of too many options for my Bonus Action with this build, but I really don't mind. I do think I need to talk to my DM more about how things might work exactly. I'll probably reskin my psi blades to appear as shiruken when thrown, and sai when in melee. The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this build.

The bonus action clog isn't really much in practice for this build, it won't be often you want to do multiple things, especially with the speed from Monk and Tabaxi.

[Psyren]

The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this build.

I mean, at the end of the day that's the important thing, don't let our naysaying stand in the way :smallsmile: