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View Full Version : Tear Gas and Riot Cops, Damn stupid PCs and their big mouths



mostlyharmful
2007-11-30, 09:24 AM
My group has a bit of a problem upcoming, using diplomacy and intimadate ("It's the Workers who control the means of Production, Throw off your imperialist shakles and create a better world....":smallannoyed: ) between them they've managed to cobble together something along the lines of a peasents rising. They've got a few thousand commoners and experts marching fairly shambolically towards a large city with a heavy preponderance of Wizards, quite a few of which are high level. And since the peasents are rising no-one's producing the standerd amounts of food, timber, iron ore, etc...

So next session it's riot cops, or the DnD equivilent. so I ask the forum, how would an unruly mob of economically useful citizens be handled by an angry, magically powerful nobility that doesn't value them much as people but understands their use to keep the brandy and cigars flowing.

Couple of ideas so far-
1. riot police/mercenaries on horses with shields and batons (homebrewed clubs dealing nonleathel damage except on a critical)
2. tear gas spells, modelled on Cloudkill with con penalties rather than damage, effective until an alchemal treatment or several days.

anything more to challenge my players?, the idea being that they're running around in the middle of all this low level stuff trying to lead the peasents and counter the tactics of the establishment not that they themselves take on an army or anything.

Party =
level 14 Wiz
Level 12 Bard
Level 15 Barb
Level 13 S'Sage

Sleet
2007-11-30, 10:04 AM
Bards or clerics casting enlarged calm emotions?

rollfrenzy
2007-11-30, 10:18 AM
Walls to channel the peasants into an area then..

Web, sleep, fog cloud, en masse.

basically scare the peasants into routing or break up the will to fight.

Also mass illusions to make it seem like the peasants are heading into a fight with thousands of giants or whatever.

These are what the low level wizards can be doing while the powerful casters deal with the PC's.

Also assassinating leaders of a rebellion generally proves pretty useful.

Arang
2007-11-30, 10:18 AM
If I were a wizard I'd use undead or or some other kind of fear AoE magic. Makes them rethink the whole revolution thing, useful if there is fighting, and you can make sure nobody gets hurt unless you want to.

Baxbart
2007-11-30, 10:24 AM
There's always one way to solve this problem - let the Terrasque out.

Well, not literally - but get some wizards together and start creating illusions of big scary monsters to make the peasants rethink the march (And hope your PCs aren't too smart to see through it/Too stupid to attack...)

Telok
2007-11-30, 10:30 AM
Freaking hilarious.

The commoners will break when hit with real firepower, or the threat of it. Acid Fog, Chain Lightning, and some well chosen illusions should do it. After that it's just a matter of rounding up the leaders of this little revolt and doing horrible nasty magic things to them.

Edit: Hire a dragon, the younger ones will work for decent money and "munchies"

Magnor Criol
2007-11-30, 10:51 AM
Yeah, like the others have said, start throwing some illusions or fear effect that would cause the weaker-minded folk to panic and run. Your PCs, I'll warrant, won't be fooled - especially if the peasants are just running because they're getting hit by a couple damage spells, the players won't want to back down from that. So a few of the spells or effects listed above will quickly separate things out into the fleeing mob of combat-insignificant peasants, and the heroic PCs.

This'll make the government happy because they'll get to take out the leaders of the revolution (or try to); it'll make your players happy because they'll get a good big fight; and it'll give you a chance to set events going in a way that's convenient. If you like the big peasant mob, then if the PCs win, the mob could all come back to their triumphant champions and be more determined, and maybe bigger, than ever. If you don't like them, then the mob could just be dispersed and gone, regardless of whether the PCs win or lose.

Tempest Fennac
2007-11-30, 10:59 AM
Stinking Cloud (especially if Extended and Enlarged) would be useful as a form of tear gas.

Funkyodor
2007-11-30, 11:42 AM
Try low 'tech'.

Police force equal to 1/8th to 1/4 the size the pesant mob representing main line cops, rent-a-cops, and volunteer deputies. Give them normal chain or plate mail and tower shields. Use the sap mechanics but call them batons. Gear them out with alchemical items, easily made from a city of wizards and magic types. Stink-sticks using the smoke-stick mechanics (but with a stinking cloud effect and no obscurement), thunderstones, and ebberon-esque flash pellets. Maybe you might want to issue out 2 Decanters of Endless Waters for the water cannon effect and have several folks to secure it, or maybe an apparatus to do it for them.

I mean, come on. A battered, wet, blind, deaf, and/or puking pesant would just throw down his pitchfork and say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" It lets the wizards handle the matter using cheap resources easily replaced once the pesants go back to dirt farming.

Then to challenge the players, include some wizards, clerics, and police veterans scattered throughout, kinda like how they are. So when they make an action to shore up a weak spot, or start screwing with the cops ranks; the enemy elites can show up.

The_Werebear
2007-11-30, 12:02 PM
Intimidation effects work as well.

The wizards send out a scouting party to grab some revolutionaries, kill them, and reanimate them. Have them scrubbing streets when the mob shows up.

Another good idea is a line of summoned monsters. Extradimensional things are scary, not to mention they can represent police hounds.

Prometheus
2007-11-30, 12:32 PM
I think the real question is how the PCs have any hope of coming back from this with anything but complete failure, Scenarios:
1) The Wizards control, scare, and nonlethal damage the crowd until it breaks up. Any the PCs do is pretty much irrelevant and they should not have done this
2) The Wizards play hard ball and start kill the peasants, the PCs are forced to chose between letting them die or retreating, no matter how you look at it, they would have been better not to put the peasants in this position
3) The PCs engage in some real combat with the Wizards, only to have the peasants be spectators who are being punished for being there all along the way. The PCs should have just fought the wizards alone
4) Peasants and PCs work together to destroy the wizards...???

Unless of course you are showing them how stupid their idea was, than by all means, make it hurt.

Hexus
2007-11-30, 12:40 PM
Fabricate some dirt on the pc's. Have the peasonts question there motives. There stop in production is endangering there own livelyhood.

iop
2007-11-30, 12:40 PM
Aside from using "tear gas", the establishment could also be using the tried and true tactic of capturing the leaders for an exemplary trial and execution.
If they get caught, you can have the PCs stage a prison break next session.

bosssmiley
2007-11-30, 03:45 PM
*sigh* Why peasant uprisings don't work in D&D (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9776618&postcount=2).

TL;DR version: your rising of plucky yokels have no chance against a regime that has a bunch of full class casters binding Vrocks against just such a contingency. Decimate (in the "kill 1-in-10" sense) the rising, the survivors suddenly remember they have some crops to tend...elsewhere.

The tallest poppies get their head lopped first. :smallwink:

Mewtarthio
2007-11-30, 03:53 PM
Use Subdual Substitution (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Subdual_Substitution,all) to deal ridiculous amounts of nonlethal damage. It'll be some time before those peasants get up. Afterwards, you can slap the unconscious peasants with geases to get them back to work (eg "Reach this designated quota of goods produced during the next five years").

tainsouvra
2007-11-30, 04:03 PM
Intimidation effects work as well.

The wizards send out a scouting party to grab some revolutionaries, kill them, and reanimate them. Have them scrubbing streets when the mob shows up. I was going to suggest something like this as a good opener--remind the peasants that, in the grand scheme of things, they are actually quite replaceable.

A small handful of mid-level spellcasters should be able to utterly rout the peasants, and that's not even getting into the category of what should be CR-appropriate for the party. What the PC's are doing is downright stupid. Peasants with sticks and torches don't belong in real battlefields, in D&D ones with Wizards and Dragons they'd have to be utterly moronic to try it. Remind them why this is the case! :smallamused:
For example...
Stick a handful of foes with a little bit of DR, 10 would probably do it. Let them walk right through the peasant army, killing without reprisal. See what that does to morale.
Have the big guns target the leaders (players) but the splash damage alone should be enough to kill off swarms of peasants, who, if they have half a wit left among their entire number, will run like hell.

Brawls
2007-11-30, 04:04 PM
Fabricate items that cast Major Image and Hold/Charm Person. Distribute liberally throughout town. Congratulations you've just hijacked the revolution by introducing TV. Next step, start charging for the items, then content, then better looking content, etc.

Brawls

sikyon
2007-11-30, 05:05 PM
Thought: Peasant Railgun.

tainsouvra
2007-11-30, 05:21 PM
Thought: Peasant Railgun. Response: D&D doesn't really have a conservation of momentum like classical physics would.

sikyon
2007-11-30, 06:08 PM
Response: D&D doesn't really have a conservation of momentum like classical physics would.

What does conservation of momentum have to do with anything?

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-30, 06:16 PM
Guards with 'Symbols' on their shields, or even just wizards carrying the symbol on a standard.

Sleep, persuasion, pain, and fear...that is really all you need.

Persuasion to make them be nice and go away...anyone who resists will be turned over by the crowd =)...after all, they are your friends.

Sleep is good as a passive symbol to guard a gate you are goign to leave open (people holding a document with the royal seal may pass unaffected...like all people who have 'security papers' ). people who try and enter a secure area will then be picked up by a guard and placed in jail.

Pain and fear if you wish to be cruel to those who do not respond to reason without using lethal means.

cloud of nausia is bad cause then you have a mess and who wants to clean that up. Insanity is bad cause then you have a riot.

other spells are web, grease, bane...

Or, if the powers in charge are goodly, perhaps a high level priest would summon a daeva and ask it to calm the crowd. If they don't listen to an angel on a mission of mercy trying to keep people from being hurt unnecesarily...then well...plan B...on the other hand, the PC's will be much less likely to attack a good 'monster' than something like ogers or guards.

puppyavenger
2007-11-30, 06:19 PM
PAO that is all

tainsouvra
2007-11-30, 06:20 PM
What does conservation of momentum have to do with anything? The peasant railgun doesn't accomplish anything except moving an object from person to person quickly. It doesn't gain any momentum regardless of the speed it travels due to this handing-off, and if thrown by the final person it does exactly the same damage as any other thrown object of its size.

Fhaolan
2007-11-30, 06:55 PM
Okay, so these Wizards sound like the shiftless nobility that is typical in these kinds of stories. Which means that they are going to expend the minimal amount of resources available to them. However, they are the nobility, so they won't be able to resist showing off and using what is essentially overkill.

The goal is to create fear and obediance with a minimal amount of bloodshed, because the more you kill, the less peasants there will be to cravenly tug their forlocks as you go by in your levetating sedan chair.

The easiest way to do this is illusions and a liberal sprinkling of area-of-effect mind control spells like confusion, fear, etc.

Halucinatory Terrain is a good one. Have the terrain appear to twist slightly, so they naturally end up going back the way they came. Or put imaginary chasms and rivers in the way. Less subtle, use Walls of Force. To be even more sneaky, deliberately put ways to bypass the obstacles into the illusions, but make them restrictive. One-at-a-time rope bridges and that kind of thing. Nothing puts a peasant's rebellion into perspective than trying to get 300+ commoners over a rope bridge hanging over a waterfall...

Unless the PCs are actively dispelling and counterspelling, the level 1 shmucks aren't going to have a chance with their will saves. If the PCs *are* actively dispelling, these multiple high-level wizards are going to have a lot more spell resources than the PCs do and will simply outlast them, or gather enough info about them to target them directly.

StickMan
2007-11-30, 07:12 PM
Man you all are thinking about this the wrong way. Sure short term casting spells and scaring people great idea, long term how ever these things do not force people to go back to work. The whole rebellion thing works fine you just have to stop having all the commoner stop working in any way to effect the upper class.

I suggest you look at how real world protests work. Back during the U.S. civil rights movement many people were threated with being kill, and they marched. People who were treated unfairly did boycotts and put people of out business or forced them to change to stay in business.

Unless the wizards are willing to kill off the whole population then odd are by using civil protest long enough the people may very well be able to overthrow or at least gain rights.

Just to be clear as long as this does not go into combat your fine.

tainsouvra
2007-11-30, 07:29 PM
Man you all are thinking about this the wrong way. Sure short term casting spells and scaring people great idea, long term how ever these things do not force people to go back to work. In reality, peasants in the real world rarely rebelled even in horrific conditions, often due to simple inertia. When they did, it was usually put down with a minimum of effort by those in power.
The whole rebellion thing works fine you just have to stop having all the commoner stop working in any way to effect the upper class. This doesn't work in D&D. A peasant can be easily replaced by a fairly simple spell or automaton, as far as the upper class is concerned. The masses don't control the only means of production in the D&D universe. They might be more convenient, but it's possible that they aren't even needed at all by the upper class, at least not needed in a living/conscious/free-willed state.
I suggest you look at how real world protests work. Back during the U.S. civil rights movement many people were threated with being kill, and they marched. People who were treated unfairly did boycotts and put people of out business or forced them to change to stay in business.

Unless the wizards are willing to kill off the whole population then odd are by using civil protest long enough the people may very well be able to overthrow or at least gain rights.

Just to be clear as long as this does not go into combat your fine. The problem with that is that D&D isn't real life. In real life, people really do have power, at least to an extent, and the masses really can change things. In D&D, the masses are a moderately-valuable, but ultimately replaceable, commodity traded by those who have real power.

J.Gellert
2007-11-30, 07:35 PM
The problem with that is that D&D isn't real life. In real life, people really do have power, at least to an extent, and the masses really can change things. In D&D, the masses are a moderately-valuable, but ultimately replaceable, commodity traded by those who have real power.

Depending on the Dungeon Master and game setting, of course.

tainsouvra
2007-11-30, 07:50 PM
Depending on the Dungeon Master and game setting, of course. Yes, the DM can heavily reduce the ability of magic to sustain a small population if he wishes. In the standard campaign, though, it's quite viable even if most don't think to try it out.

StickMan
2007-11-30, 07:59 PM
Fine in that case just take some bloody assassin levels, make a list and start killing you some wizards.:smallmad:

Mewtarthio
2007-11-30, 08:07 PM
Man you all are thinking about this the wrong way. Sure short term casting spells and scaring people great idea, long term how ever these things do not force people to go back to work. The whole rebellion thing works fine you just have to stop having all the commoner stop working in any way to effect the upper class.

As I posted above: Lesser geas can force the peasants to get back to work. Just come up with a quota of goods you expect them to produce in the next five-to-ten years and place them under a geas that states, "You must provide [government name] with [quota] sometime within the next [time period], broken up however you wish." By the time they fulfill the geas, they'll have forgotten all about revolution.


Depending on the Dungeon Master and game setting, of course.

The PCs are level 12-15. At that level, you've got enough magical power floating around out there to either control the populace or replace a good portion of them.

----------

You know, I've got an interesting question: How would we have responded if the players had posted this scenario? In other words: What should the players be doing to ensure success?

RelentlessImp
2007-11-30, 09:14 PM
Greater Invisibility from the Wizard en masse. Sneak to the leaders and put swords to their throats and hold them for ransom, or simply kill them while Invisible.

tainsouvra
2007-12-01, 11:33 PM
You know, I've got an interesting question: How would we have responded if the players had posted this scenario? In other words: What should the players be doing to ensure success? Step one would be sending the peasants home and taking care of the government themselves...

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-01, 11:53 PM
Levels 7-16 turn into Dragons and go duel PC's, 17+ use lots and lots of nonlethal substituted Delayed Blast Fireballs.

Ganurath
2007-12-02, 12:42 AM
A special assault force of Warmages with the Nonlethal Spell metamagic feat, at least high enough to cast Nonlethal Fireballs.

Magnor Criol
2007-12-02, 12:59 AM
I'm currently caught on the mental image of "peasant railgun" in the sense of a large contraption that hurls peasants long distances in a straight shot.

*thoomf* aaaaaAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh.....

Not that it really has any impact on this situation, but it's damn funny.

Kompera
2007-12-02, 06:39 AM
so I ask the forum, how would an unruly mob of economically useful citizens be handled by an angry, magically powerful nobility that doesn't value them much as people but understands their use to keep the brandy and cigars flowing.

Couple of ideas so far-
1. riot police/mercenaries on horses with shields and batons (homebrewed clubs dealing nonleathel damage except on a critical)
2. tear gas spells, modelled on Cloudkill with con penalties rather than damage, effective until an alchemal treatment or several days.You're the GM, the solution completely depends on how you feel like approaching it.

I'd probably chose some flavor of derailing it. One option for this might be:

The 'army' of peasants arrives at the capitol city. They are tired, dirty, hungry, and expecting a fight. Instead, they are welcomed by the sight of hundreds of cooking fires, merry tents, entertainers, and it looks like a celebration is in progress. They are fed and entertained, and made to feel welcome and appreciated. Bed and baths are provided. Then the King or whomever is in charge makes some speech about how important their contribution is to the kingdom, and declares that this day shall ever forward be a day of rest and celebration, to honor their hard work throughout the rest of the year.

Unless the peasants are all evil, it's unlikely that they'll be able to be convinced to raise arms against cooks and jugglers offering them food and some relaxation and entertainment. The fight should go completely out of them, and they'll start to remember the loved ones they've left behind (whom they have probably never been away from for more than a few hours ever before in their lives) and the crops in the fields which need tending if they hope to survive the coming winter.

For the nobility, a day of holiday for the peasantry and the cost of the feast should be far less than the loss of lives and long lasting resentment which would come from a more violent 'solution' to the problem. Food is less costly than combat pay for the army. And if the nobility is the conniving and intrigue ridden type, the kind that can see the peasantry as merely an economically useful if otherwise despised resource, this solution even plays well to their personalities: Bribe your enemies, don't fight them! Killing is wasteful, and can only serve to cut into the profits.

AslanCross
2007-12-02, 06:50 AM
"The peasants are revolting!"
"They've always been revolting."

Best easy solution I can offer has already been given: stinking cloud, preferably widened.

Though Kompera's solution does look interesting.

Demented
2007-12-02, 08:45 AM
Separate the peasants from the PCs.

It's much easier to convince the peasants to give up when their high-level benefactors aren't present to protect them. You can also move in phalanxes of well-trained soldiers to quell the unruly. The only trick is keeping the PCs otherwise preoccupied while you lead columns of peasants down streets where they can be dealt with.
As for the remaining crowds that insist being around the PCs themselves... Make preparations for slaughter. (Think Storm of Vengeance.)

Disperse, not detain, the crowd.

While you could arrest the lot of them, it's not really necessary or cost-effective. Once you've got the peasants where you want them, give them two things: A route to retreat and a reason to retreat. The primary objective is simply to disperse the peasants into hiding. Then you only have to detain (and make examples of) the few that didn't have the sense to run.
After they're all fearful, you can coax them out of hiding with rewards for "information leading to the capture of resistance leaders" or let them return to work under a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. Either way, it requires the least effort and management, while promising the swiftest return to a slightly grimmer status quo.

Great... Walls of Fire?

Nobody with 1d4 hitpoints is going to try rushing across a wall of fire, and in fact is more likely to head in the other direction. Walls of Fire can effect a wide area, plus they will last as long as a wizard is concentrating on one, making it easy to place and forget them, if you can spare a caster. It also serves to give your PCs a mini-quest: Disable the wizard so the peasants can proceed.

Fear inspires.

You want them running away. Fear does just that. The more people you can panick, the better things are going for you. Spells, monsters with fear auras, traps...

Delegate your work!

Nobody in a bureacracy wants to do the work if they can delegate it to someone else. Apprentices and lower-ranking wizards will be doing all the casting work unless someone needs a high-level spell. If they must do something, the high-ranking wizards should be focused on the troublesome adventurers who seem to be the cause of this rigmarole, rather than the crowds of peasants.
Meanwhile, the physical grunt work can be handled by phalanxes of soldiers with orders to subdue anyone who's not already on their knees, preferably after most have already fled the scene.
Lastly, Bards can demand submission with their suitably loud voices. It's easy to forget what's going on when you're in the middle of a crowd, and it's therefore always nice to have a little guidance. At worst, you know which direction not to flee.

puppyavenger
2007-12-02, 10:11 AM
If you see them coming, than how about walls of force blocking the streets? after all it's an invinclible, invisible wall, that should put the fear of magic back into them.

Magnor Criol
2007-12-02, 01:22 PM
Kompera's solution is by far the best of those presented here, both for in-game and metagame reasons.

Unless you feel that the peasantry are so overflowing with blind infuriation that they're just see anything not a member of their mob as something to kill, which is highly unlikely, then what he proposes would be both exceedingly effective in multiple areas (mob calming & dispersal and population support) and, perhaps just as important, it'd be unexpected.

Your players will know how to react if the enemy nobles start chunking AoE spells at them - fight. But they may well be thrown for a loop when their march of war is met by kindness - how do you react to kindness from someone you saw as your enemy?

It'd make for a memorable game experience, even if your PCs decide to go the 'evil' route and kill the cooks and entertainers ("Hey, remember that time we slaughtered that welcoming party and then ate the food they made for us afterwards?")

Triaxx
2007-12-02, 06:56 PM
Of course, if you want to surpress the uprising, maximized magic missiles chain casted to take out a rank or two should be enough to break the morale of the group. Or enlarged cloudkill to wipe chunks out. Whatever is left will flee in abject terror and return the fields, never to rise again.

Of course, if you make it appear to come from the PC's, you can make life really difficult from them. An invisible familiar works beautifully for this.

puppyavenger
2007-12-02, 07:02 PM
repeated mass charm persons.

Suzuro
2007-12-02, 07:03 PM
Just send out a Samurai to go out and start intimidating people, heh.

No, but really, I'd have to go with the mass illusions idea, even if the PC's see through it, I doubt they are much of a match for an entire city.


-Suzuro

puppyavenger
2007-12-02, 07:09 PM
1.hire a diplomancer bard,
2 charm him repeatetly,
3 get him to convince the peasents to go back to work,
4 deal with any remaining as deatailed earlier in the thread.

Hawgh
2007-12-02, 08:05 PM
1. fireball (maybe the rest will stop)
2. symbol of pain (will slow them and dissuade them)
3. scare/fear (panic in a mob is sure to dissolve it)
4. sleep (they aren't going to axe anyone when they are lying around in the streets)
5. that more powerful version of sleep, you know it. (etc.)
6. bring in a blockade of zombies, it'll be a strange reverted resident evil (which would be cool)
7. fireball (burn you impudent cretins, burn!)

Sucrose
2007-12-02, 09:13 PM
Option one: Peaceful solution, as outlined above.

Option two: Demonstrate to the peasantry that they are not needed, merely convenient. Call forth a bound djinn to make all manner of delicious pastries right in front of them via his Major Creation, then start throwing fireballs around to get them off your damn lawn.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 10:18 PM
Option one: Peaceful solution, as outlined above.

Option two: Demonstrate to the peasantry that they are not needed, merely convenient. Call forth a bound djinn to make all manner of delicious pastries right in front of them via his Major Creation, then start throwing fireballs around to get them off your damn lawn.

Option three: After easily dispatching the pathetic rebellion, sentence all who participated to public crucimigration. Declare mandatory attendance for everyone in the city. After twenty-four hours of long, agonizing deaths, the peasants with enough class levels to survive the process will rise again as necropolitans. Rebuke them all, and order them to go back to work. Now you have a much smaller group of peasants, but they also never tire, nor will they eat all the delicious food they're growing for you. This serves as a lesson to the rest of your empire: Serve us willingly, or we will torture you to death and bind your still-sentient souls to work for us until your bodies utterly degrade into dust.

Enochi
2007-12-02, 10:28 PM
Hmm this depends on several factors. Peasants cannot be easily replaced en mass so killing the lot of them is foolish. Mass Murdering your subjects would only insite more rebellion. "Threat of force" is much more usefull then accutually using force.

The Capitol forces have 3 main goal. 1. Protect the Capitol 2. Susstain as few casualities as possible. 3. Disper the mod back to the field. The leaders are the ones that going to keep the mob moving forward but as soon as someone dies it will insite the mob further to the point it could easily get out of control.

Also most nobles have plots constantly going on and will use opportunities such as these to either to side with the mob to gain a higher position or to attack the mob to try and gain favor with the ruling body. Also enemies of the country would gladly help stoke the fires and enemy agents would help the peasents.

Timing of the attack is another thing. If the ruling body is frozen or unreachable for any reason guards will my react with force.

The wizards and guards are another sourse of contenstion where are the majority drawn from? If the most are from the nobility then they are most likely a smaller force and would react differently then a force that is drawn from the lower classes who would be more sympathetic.

The size of the Mob also will effect things. A wizard who has 100 armed people charging him is going to be shaken no matter how many he take down do to sheer numbers.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 10:38 PM
Also most nobles have plots constantly going on and will use opportunities such as these to either to side with the mob to gain a higher position or to attack the mob to try and gain favor with the ruling body. Also enemies of the country would gladly help stoke the fires and enemy agents would help the peasents.

No, I think the peasants are on their own. Nobody wants a revolution besides the people revolting. The nobles would be rightly worried about getting executed for being nobles. The neighboring countries would be worried that news could spread and start a trend.

Enochi
2007-12-02, 11:03 PM
No, I think the peasants are on their own. Nobody wants a revolution besides the people revolting. The nobles would be rightly worried about getting executed for being nobles. The neighboring countries would be worried that news could spread and start a trend.

I disagree. A noble who would help the peasant would gain their favor. Promising them what they want if the king is unwilling would easily turn them. Older Stagnant nobles would side with the king while the brass younger one would see an opportunity to leap ahead. Also a Duke or Earl if he was next in line for the throne would grasp such an opportunity easily. Don't forget that the captiol will like be made up of some 80% peasents too if it follow old medival style if it doesn't then why are their peasents?

Other countries could be worried about that but greed is a powerful motivator for men. They would risk that if they felt the gain would be worthwhile.

Also playing into favor is what god the city is aligned to or primarily worships. This of national important with possible regional repercusions so many many beings are likely setting things up to further their own goals.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-02, 11:08 PM
I disagree. A noble who would help the peasant would gain their favor. Promising them what they want if the king is unwilling would easily turn them. Older Stagnant nobles would side with the king while the brass younger one would see an opportunity to leap ahead. Also a Duke or Earl if he was next in line for the throne would grasp such an opportunity easily. Don't forget that the captiol will like be made up of some 80% peasents too if it follow old medival style if it doesn't then why are their peasents?

These peasants aren't an organized group. There's no way to curry favor with them. They're a gigantic angry mob out to tear the nobles limb from limb. Once the revolution's over, any nobles who did help them would be executed, either by the surviving government or by paranoid revolutionary leaders. Furthermore, when a revolution occurs, it occurs because the common people blame the upper classes for all their problems and decide to solve things by killing them all. A revolution is basically a gigantic lynch mob. You can't negociate with it.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-02, 11:41 PM
Speaking as someone who's been in a riot, violent counter-attacks almost never work. First hint of teargas or a baton swing and all the generalized violence turns right on the cops. Now, in the case of D&D, this situation is sort of skewed (however, one having peasants in a D&D world at all is pretty silly, when one thinks of magic's potential), as the cops, in this case, have some higher-ups who are effectively gods.

Violence would, thus, be a bad idea on either side. While the cops would not be overwhelmed by the peasants in D&D, I don't honestly think hopelessness takes the fight out of revolutionaries. I think they'd keep going, for a long time. This means a lot of peasants would die, and they'd lose a ton of guards and maybe even a few wizards on the loyalist side. That is good for no-one. The peasants peacefully refusing to do their work is more likely to draw sympathy from surrounding peasants, just as debilitating while more peaceable, and less likely to draw a violence response. A peaceful response from the Kingdom would show an understanding of the peasants' need and a willingness to listen. It one of the two sides is willing to blink, this can probably end pretty peacefully and in a generally inspiring way.

Enochi
2007-12-02, 11:44 PM
These peasants aren't an organized group. There's no way to curry favor with them. They're a gigantic angry mob out to tear the nobles limb from limb. Once the revolution's over, any nobles who did help them would be executed, either by the surviving government or by paranoid revolutionary leaders. Furthermore, when a revolution occurs, it occurs because the common people blame the upper classes for all their problems and decide to solve things by killing them all. A revolution is basically a gigantic lynch mob. You can't negociate with it.

A revolution is a gigantic lynch mob....yeah do you bother to read history? 9 out of 10 time they just replace one set of noble with another. And the PCs are acting from what I understand as the leaders so they have some level of organization.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-03, 12:31 AM
A revolution is a gigantic lynch mob....yeah do you bother to read history? 9 out of 10 time they just replace one set of noble with another. And the PCs are acting from what I understand as the leaders so they have some level of organization.

I'm referring to what the OP implied was a group of charismatic PCs inspiring the peasants to take down their oppressors. If you could cite some historical examples of when a revolution has "replaced one set of nobles with with another," I'd concede the possibility.

Enochi
2007-12-03, 01:31 AM
I'm referring to what the OP implied was a group of charismatic PCs inspiring the peasants to take down their oppressors. If you could cite some historical examples of when a revolution has "replaced one set of nobles with with another," I'd concede the possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War#The_First_English_Civil_War

Will this suffice?

Mewtarthio
2007-12-03, 01:58 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War#The_First_English_Civil_War

Will this suffice?

I don't think that's quite what's happening here. Forgive me if I'm horribly misinterpreting things--My knowledge of British history is limited at best--but it looks like the English Civil War was one ruling body (Parliament) attempting to depower another ruling body (Royalty). All the major fighting is between people who already have power and know how to use it. The OP described the lower class uniting under a charismatic leader and attempting to throw off the current government, forging a new one out of idealism alone. That would be more akin to, say, the French Revolution, or possibly even the Russian Revolution. Even then, I'd let them have some support; the trouble is, it's even more chaotic than that. From what the OP posted, the PCs went to a villiage, riled up some peasants, and started marching.

Ganurath
2007-12-03, 01:58 AM
In retrospect, it depends on the kingdom:

LE Hextorian: Send the army out to meet them, offer terms of a throwdown between X champions of both sides. Essentially, the party has to throw down with the champions of the empire, which will concede to the demands of better conditions if the PCs win, but retain dominion. If they lose... they better start running.

LE Kubota: See Azure City Arc, but without the evacuation.

NE Magic: Go with the wholesale slaughter methods that have come up so frequently.

NE Puppetmasters: Kompera's method fits these guys best.

CE: See NE Magic, but use Barbarians and Warlocks instead of Wizards. More blood = More fun.

GoC
2007-12-03, 10:05 AM
So next session it's riot cops, or the DnD equivilent. so I ask the forum, how would an unruly mob of economically useful citizens be handled by an angry, magically powerful nobility that doesn't value them much as people but understands their use to keep the brandy and cigars flowing.

If it's a magic heavy city then peasants and experts are just that much extra meat. Wizards, clerics and artificers can do everything the commoners can only better and 1000x faster.
A single use activated item of create food and water is pretty cheep and feeds an entire metropolis...

Solid Fog and Fear should be useful to break up riots.

GoC
2007-12-03, 10:22 AM
Peasants with sticks and torches don't belong in real battlefields, in D&D ones with Wizards and Dragons they'd have to be utterly moronic to try it.

Actualy they do but only in settings were 1-in-a-hundred are PCs, level 5 is 1-in-10,000 and level 10 is 1 in 10,000,000.

Needless to say you can't have Trolls or dragons in settings like that.