What are your experiences with Monk + Monk builds used

[PallyBass]

What are your experiences playing as or with someone playing a Monk? Was it a fun experience? Why/why not? Finally what was the build of the Monk ( race, subclass, stats rolled, feats, multiclass, etc.) I ask because I worry about the MAD of the class, especially regarding their AC and would like to hear if it was an issue with anyone's play experience or not.

[Opsimos]

I only played my Long Death monk from level 5 through 7, but I enjoy him a lot. He's a Dhampir with Eldritch Claw Tattoo, 18 Wis, 16 Dex, and 16 Con.

It's been interesting to play a very durable character who is a threat not because of DPR but because of stunning strike. I can min-max without worry of completely outperforming others. And managing the limited ki points is a lot of fun. Maybe I should multiclass in T3 to keep them scarce.

If the damage got a significant buff so that he'd draw more attention and have an easier time obtaining Temp HP from the lv 3 ability, I feel that he'd be in the realm of A-Tier characters.

To the rolling, MAD classes profit especially from starting with multiple high stats and get especially punished by starting with multiple low stats.

[J-H]

I have a player who swapped over to Kensei Monk at about level 6, and is now a level 19 Kensei 17/Rogue 2.
The only houserule is that Kensei don't have to give up one of their two weapon attacks to get the +2 AC.

He has Sharpshooter, Bracers of Defense, a double-range bow (2nd prize in an archery contest), and wields a Warhammer + unarmed strike in melee.
Archer + melee switch hitter, fast enough when hasted and dashing to make a diversionary attack and outrun the enemy entirely, and rarely uses Stunning Fist.

Very effective overall.

[Witty Username]

I have played a four elements monk, lv 15, as the getting used to the new edition game. No feats or multiclassing.
I had fun,
I had a couple eye opening experiences, one trying to use stunning strike to burn legendary resistance (doesn't work at all in practice) and another one with shape the flowing river during a ship to ship combat the size of water that can freeze is pretty significant. If you think baseline monk is good, four elements is a good monk, your subclass features as situational spells to use when your normal plans are not tenable works well.

A buddy of mine also played a sun soul monk in a ravnica game.
He swapped his character out due to the poor play experience,
He was constantly complaining about damage and not feeling powerful, he had one positive experience where he killed an enemy single handedly with a stun and pair of full attacks (DM forgot to apply legendary resistance, they misread the stat block as we discovered later)

[MisterD]

I play a Gambler. No weapons (Darts re-flavored as Playing Cards) and no armor.
The base of the build is Kensei Monk.

Throwing cards at and dodging/moving out of the way of opponents. and if an opponent gets too close, they are in for a bit of a surprise.

[JLandan]

We had a regular player in our group that often played Monks. The trouble was that he constantly complained that he ran out of Ki too soon. I do not know how many times we had to remind him it refreshed on a short rest not long.

He also would never use monk weapons, and still whined about the low damage die at low levels.

[stoutstien]

What are your experiences playing as or with someone playing a Monk? Was it a fun experience? Why/why not? Finally what was the build of the Monk ( race, subclass, stats rolled, feats, multiclass, etc.) I ask because I worry about the MAD of the class, especially regarding their AC and would like to hear if it was an issue with anyone's play experience or not.

Monks are hard to nail down. They scale inversely with the difficulty of the game as far as how often the party's primary plan(s) get blocked. They also the only class that has a built in role change as they level up.

[Sigreid]

Played a shadow monk in Descent in to Avernus. He was fun (I didn't care for the adventure) and had lots of cool things he could do including excellent stealth, teleportation etc. What I found though was that he was more vulnerable than anything else I'd tried to the dice just flat going against him. He had far fewer ways to bolster his own bad rolls or mitigate the effects of opponents having good rolls.

[Melil12]

I am playing a level 6 Mercy monk in a Ice-wind dale game. It is heavily home brewed though, no shield spell, anyone can do -5/+10 with a weapon (no feat), TreantMonks Monk changes.

I felt pretty good, thus far I am the only real healer. I am fairly conservative with my Ki points. But I have learned when it’s key to spend them. Last session I was pretty key in controlling the enemy and pulling out the win.

[Amnestic]

I played a 6th level shadowmonk who MC'd into rogue for two levels before the game ended. It was pretty effective - darkvision helped cover up for the fact I was a human. Being able to teleport as a bonus action gave me exceptional mobility and the advantage from it helped proc sneak attack when I was darting in on a solo creature.

Due to the nature of the campaign it was usually a no-short rests sorta deal which didn't help with ki usage vs the spellcasters, and had I not lucked into some bracers of armour I expect I'd have felt a lot squishier but overall it was fun and I never felt like I wasn't contributing my 'fair share'.

[animorte]

If you think baseline monk is good, four elements is a good monk, your subclass features as situational spells to use when your normal plans are not tenable works well.

I think if a base class is reliable and this is sort of the identity of your subclass, it’s a decent balance. I had a similar experience with Shadow and Mercy Monk. (I also ran a 4-elements in Strixhaven that was in the water dancing club where I got an awful lot of use from its design).

For monks specifically, I’ve felt that this applies. The base class is probably the most balanced class in the entire game (fight me). It survives really well without needing to spend resources, does solid damage, and has Ki ready for extra fancy things. Subclasses do a really good job of adding flavor and a presenting a different view of the game.

Ultimately, Monks play pretty much the same though, just access to different tricks. I generally tend to conserve my Ki for the abilities that assist dire moments. I’ve never been disappointed though.

[HPisBS]

I played a standard array V.uman OH Monk from lvl 6 up until lvl 10 or so, at which point, I transitioned it to Tranquility (was new UA at the time). The MADness hurt with standard array, especially when my poor DC needed to be just one higher to land the stun. lol

The coolest moments were definitely when my OH Technique pushed enemies off a cliff, and a mini-boss into the castle's boiling oil.

The most impactful, however, came after I transitioned to Tranquility. With an abundance of caution, my Monk single-handedly kept the party from suffering a disease caused by the regional effects of a boss monster by using the cure 1 disease function on everyone every day before we even understood what was going on. (I think it was from an aboleth?)

- btw, Mercy Monks can do that about as well

[MrStabby]

I have seen a few and played two...

My take is the monk really depends on the game and the DM. At its best, the monk is a total powerhouse with huge versatility and flexability. At worst it is a low damage fighter that doesn't get the support other classes do.

The monk gets some really powerful abilities like martial arts and Ki-empowered strikes, that become really underwhelming if the DM introduces elements like magic weapons or feats that support weapon types that monks do not effectively use.

Likewise mobility is really really valuable and getting to that squishy caster or archer in the back lines is very strong... unless the DM tends to mostly run encounters without a wide variety of enemies with different strengths and weaknesses. You might not be out-damaging a fighter with a monk, but if you are the one hitting the enemy druid to break their concentration then you can be just as valuable.

A few thoughts - I played a Mercy Monk, and I think it is decently strong... ish. Addition of feats like fey touched to the game means that mobility is a bit less special but on the other hand elvish accuracy made for some solid turns of damage output from time to time. Versatility of a bit of healing and beating rolled into one was nice and was a good compliment to stunning strike. It wasn't my favourite character, but it was fun.

I ran a strength base monk with a level of war cleric. Used way of shadow and teleported round in heavy armour with a greatsword and great weapon mastery. Only played it for a few levels but it was fun enough.

My advice would be to work out why you want to play monk and to see if you can scratch that itch in different ways. Then talk to your DM about the style of campaign they want to run and pick the best way.

[strangebloke]

I ran for years with gritty realism rules and generous stat allotments / free feats at first level. I've seen 3-4 monks at my table depending on how you count it.

Overall, from what I've seen

high movement speed is fantastic and makes you way more consistent than other melee characters, but its also a liability and can get you killed if you aren't careful, not because monks are squishy or low AC but because melee is dangerous and monks are fast enough that they can isolate themselves if they're not careful. Monks in my campaign have fully a 33% survival rate. much lower than other classes lol.
conventional monk builds (spear + fist) don't do enough damage to be really considered strikers and stunning strike is extremely strong but niche. A less conventional monk like a sharpshooter or gunner does a lot better here, as does a 'classic' monk with a good magic item to use in conjunction with Ki-fueled attacks. Since monks also lack extra feats and dedicated utility features, they kind of just end up being on the weak side overall. I prefer naive monks to naieve barbarians or even rogues, but they're still kind of meh.
The optional features from Tasha's are insane and almost strictly better uses for ki than anything that came before.
Monk subclass matters a lot. Shadow has good utility, Kensei has good damage, mercy is a crazy healer with decent damage and utility and is probably the best overall.... and then there's dragon, which is fiddly and underwhelming, 4e which runs out of gas way too quickly, and drunken master which just doesn't do very much.
MCing into fighter or cleric for martial weapons / cantrips / fighting style / bless is super super good and shouldn't be ignored.
New races like the MMOM goliath do a LOT to shore up monk's survivability issues.

[elyktsorb]

I've played multiple monks. Primarily I played a Land Druid/Open Hand Monk at level 15. Having spells to sling while dodging around enemy attacks and going in and out was fun.

I've done a Monk/Barbarian that was fairly fun to hit people with.

I've had fun playing monk.

[Damon_Tor]

One thing a player of mine noticed a while ago: the monk is indefensibly weak at level 1. If a TWF fighter is in the same party, prepare to be objectively inferior by every possible metric. At the end of the day I'm not sure how much anyone cares about level 1 balance, but it's something that's bothered me a little ever since.

[PallyBass]

Thanks for sharing everyone! I'm getting a good feeling about monks role as being a melee skirmisher with alot of mobility and utility options. Fighter and barbarian are mostly straight fighting but monk and rogue want to be moving around. The AC is not so important if your trying to avoid being targeted at all. The subclasses add extra tools to use. Although the MAD of monk does make me think Maxing wisdom and Dex is very important for almost every monk if their utility/control abilities key off of Wisdom to succeed.

[Lokishade]

I played a Shadow Monk at low levels, before Stunning Strike kicked in.

He was tons of fun to play. Sure, you're not stealing the spotlight in combat, but out of it, you get to pull off some serious infiltration ninja stuff.

Monk gets so much bad rap because he doesn't perform well in a white room. But the thing is, you never get to fight in a white room. There is always something you can use. There is always a place you can move to.

Also, since we almost never play with healer classes due to taste, Monk is the perfect candidate for the Healer Feat.

[1Pirate]

Monk gets so much bad rap because he doesn't perform well in a white room. But the thing is, you never get to fight in a white room.

^100% This.

Every time I've seen a monk in actual play, they've always been solid members. I've only seen them flounder twice. once was a party that had taken mostly squishy characters and they (kinda) forced the monk to be the frontline tank. The other time was a first-time player who assigned his stats poorly(highest stats in Charisma and Con, Wisdom was second lowest), and even then they managed to play a somewhat pivotal role against a hydra.

[MrStabby]

Thanks for sharing everyone! I'm getting a good feeling about monks role as being a melee skirmisher with alot of mobility and utility options. Fighter and barbarian are mostly straight fighting but monk and rogue want to be moving around. The AC is not so important if your trying to avoid being targeted at all. The subclasses add extra tools to use. Although the MAD of monk does make me think Maxing wisdom and Dex is very important for almost every monk if their utility/control abilities key off of Wisdom to succeed.

As a bit of a side note, you can play a fighter as a skirmisher perfectly well. Between mobile feat, reach weapons and races with movement bonuses (and spare feats from extra ASIs and otherwise being SAD).


I played a Shadow Monk at low levels, before Stunning Strike kicked in.

He was tons of fun to play. Sure, you're not stealing the spotlight in combat, but out of it, you get to pull off some serious infiltration ninja stuff.

Monk gets so much bad rap because he doesn't perform well in a white room. But the thing is, you never get to fight in a white room. There is always something you can use. There is always a place you can move to.

Also, since we almost never play with healer classes due to taste, Monk is the perfect candidate for the Healer Feat.

I don't know whether it is the same point or the opposite, but I see monks being bad as so many DMs have effectively a lot of white room encounters. D4 minotaurs come charging towards you... or you fight a dragon in a field... or a pair of giants in the hallway...

Certainly interesting terrain and places to use mobility to get to will favour monk type characters.

[Pooky the Imp]

Out of interest, how do you think the various Monk subclasses fare outside of combat?

[Sigreid]

Out of interest, how do you think the various Monk subclasses fare outside of combat?

The shadow monk is a solid rogue substitute for stealth/theft activities.

They should have a high wisdom, which means they should be able to do well with reading people during social interactions.

Always nice that they don't need any equipment to be effective if the adventure takes them to a place where weapons, armor and foci are inappropriate, such as the royal ball.

[Person_Man]

Like the barbarian and paladin, the monk is MAD. But if you’re lucky enough to roll 3 high stats (Dex, Wis, Con) and can use splat book material, you’ll be fine.

I’m personally not a big fan of the class, as they basically have just one feature that I find to be interesting and unique (Stunning Strike). But I’ve seen them played before without any problems.

[Kane0]

A bit glassy, but always felt like they could do something between their movement and multiple actions. If not in a party that likes to take short rests you will feel it, but its not crippling.
Lack of monk magic items in the DMG also stings if you just roll on tabled

[Leon]

Someone i know has banned them from his games, was too busy laughing about it having joined the likes of pixies and French things to actually find out why at the time.

[HPisBS]

I’m personally not a big fan of the class, as they basically have just one feature that I find to be interesting and unique (Stunning Strike). But I’ve seen them played before without any problems.

They have lots of little things like Deflect Missiles that're pretty cool, but they really need something with some oomph. I, for one, have always lamented that their so-called "Martial Arts" boils down to an escalating damage die. So boring. And it doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all!

Martial Arts needs to be something to latch on to. Something like:

Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
At level 2, you learn two of the following Martial Arts Techniques, which you can use in place of any of your normal melee attacks. You can use only one technique per attack. You learn the other two Techniques when you reach level 7 in this class.
Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.

- Impairing Strike: You make a light attack to impair the target’s movements or aim. If you hit, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier and impose disadvantage on the next attack roll or Dexterity check the target makes before the end of its next turn.

- Unbalancing Strike: If you hit with this attack roll, the target takes damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the next Strength or Dexterity saving throw or ability check it makes before the end of its next turn is made with disadvantage.

- Disarming Technique: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Strength saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding and deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Disarm action is a damage-less attack roll against the target’s athletics / acrobatics check.)

- Throw: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, it falls prone and takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Shove action replaces an attack with opposed athletics checks.)

(RAW Shove auto-succeeds when the target is incapacitated [as in stunned], but Disarm’s opposed check is unaffected. By contrast, stunned targets auto-fail Str & Dex saves.)


Level 11
Reflexive Techniques:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.


These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet they're also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor. Lvl 11 is when Monks' damage starts falling behind, so I think this is fitting enough.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.


(It may be worth pointing out that the first techniques impose saves, rather than opposed checks, and that they're written to be used in place of any melee attack, rather than being limited to when "using the Attack action" like the standard shove is.)


Like make Intercepting Fist cost 1 ki, then add:
Counter-Attack: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can make a melee attack against it with your reaction. You may substitute this attack with a Martial Arts Technique as usual.
Guard: Spend 1 ki point as a reaction to use Deflect Blow against all of a creature's melee attacks against you for that turn.

OR
Deflect Blows and Counter-Attack could go on lvl 11, then they could get upgraded to Guard and Intercepting Fist (no ki cost) as a capstone buff...

[Spo]

Played several monks over the years.

Human kensei from 1 to lvl 5. Everyone was either casters or ranged damage so took the role of front line aggrieved getter. Wasn’t the most effective use of the build.

Human drunken master in Waterdeep from lvl 1 to 3 before intellect devourer ate her brain. Fun while she lasted. Plus had a balanced team composition so that helped.

Halfling openhand from 1 to 5 in an acquisition inc campaign. Fun build with a fun group. Half elf sun soul in decent into Avernus just to level 5 bf campaign fell apart. Strong for the monsters that we faced (radiant damage).

Lastly, played a shadow monk human from from lvl 8 to 20 in mad mage (took 1 lvl in light cleric). Very awesome experience for several reasons: practically the whole dungeon was in darkness so all shadow features came into play; my party was very well balanced (wizard, life cleric, bard, ancestral barbarian, gloom stalker/assassin). This allowed me to play as a striker/rogue/scout/troublemaker. Grabbed mobile feat then spent virtually all my ASI’s on dex and wisdom (that part kinda sucked). Used my ki when needed and helped burn through legendary reactions - and even managed to stun the mad mage twice).

Having said the above, I think I’ll not be playing monk for awhile. The MADness drove me crazy. AC is key and I found myself focused on trying to achieve a good one too much.

Also my level of enjoyment of playing my monk was dependent on the makeup of the team. More enjoyable with a better balanced one (as opposed to let’s say my lvl 15 fighter/barbarian build that I play with reckless abandon).

Because of some of the limitations mentioned above I have started looking at other builds that play like a monk but has more flexibility in the leveling up process (see “Monkless monk” thread).

[Spo]

They have lots of little things like Deflect Missiles that're pretty cool, but they really need something with some oomph. I, for one, have always lamented that their so-called "Martial Arts" boils down to an escalating damage die. So boring. And it doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all!

Martial Arts needs to be something to latch on to. Something like:

Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
At level 2, you learn two of the following Martial Arts Techniques, which you can use in place of any of your normal melee attacks. You can use only one technique per attack. You learn the other two Techniques when you reach level 7 in this class.
Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.

- Impairing Strike: You make a light attack to impair the target’s movements or aim. If you hit, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier and impose disadvantage on the next attack roll or Dexterity check the target makes before the end of its next turn.

- Unbalancing Strike: If you hit with this attack roll, the target takes damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the next Strength or Dexterity saving throw or ability check it makes before the end of its next turn is made with disadvantage.

- Disarming Technique: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Strength saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding and deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Disarm action is a damage-less attack roll against the target’s athletics / acrobatics check.)

- Throw: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, it falls prone and takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Shove action replaces an attack with opposed athletics checks.)

(RAW Shove auto-succeeds when the target is incapacitated [as in stunned], but Disarm’s opposed check is unaffected. By contrast, stunned targets auto-fail Str & Dex saves.)


Level 11
Reflexive Techniques:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.


These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet they're also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor. Lvl 11 is when Monks' damage starts falling behind, so I think this is fitting enough.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.


(It may be worth pointing out that the first techniques impose saves, rather than opposed checks, and that they're written to be used in place of any melee attack, rather than being limited to when "using the Attack action" like the standard shove is.)


Like make Intercepting Fist cost 1 ki, then add:
Counter-Attack: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can make a melee attack against it with your reaction. You may substitute this attack with a Martial Arts Technique as usual.
Guard: Spend 1 ki point as a reaction to use Deflect Blow against all of a creature's melee attacks against you for that turn.

OR
Deflect Blows and Counter-Attack could go on lvl 11, then they could get upgraded to Guard and Intercepting Fist (no ki cost) as a capstone buff...

There are some good ideas here (like battle maneuvers for monks). In Rime of the Frostmaiden, they introduced brutality monk. If you combined that monk with the features you get in open hand, you may achieve the same feel you are going for with your proposal.

[MrStabby]

They have lots of little things like Deflect Missiles that're pretty cool, but they really need something with some oomph. I, for one, have always lamented that their so-called "Martial Arts" boils down to an escalating damage die. So boring. And it doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all!


I think it doesn;t help that so many of the abilities are basically making up for the hings all other martial classes get for free - scaling martial arts die being for broad weapon proficiencies, unarmoured defence being instead of armour proficiency. In what at first sight appears to be a fun class crowded with cool abilities, a lot are just substitutes for other 'default' abilities.

I would like it if an 'oomph' ability was sat with the archetype though. Helping monks really play a bit differently from each other would be very good.

[animorte]

In what at first sight appears to be a fun class crowded with cool abilities, a lot are just substitutes for other 'default' abilities.

I disagree. The main thing this applies to is Step of the Wind using Ki for 2/3 the effect of the Rogue’s Cunning Action. Most of their other things are neat tricks that (if you remember them) can make Monks fairly difficult to take down. Most of these things, other martials don’t naturally have any access to.

[Lokishade]

I don't know whether it is the same point or the opposite, but I see monks being bad as so many DMs have effectively a lot of white room encounters. D4 minotaurs come charging towards you... or you fight a dragon in a field... or a pair of giants in the hallway...

Certainly interesting terrain and places to use mobility to get to will favour monk type characters.

Whenever my DM asks for feedback, I always encourage him to be creative with the environment. More hazards mean more challenge, but it also means more opportunities.

In a world saturated with video games, we have to make a conscious effort to shake off the mentality that there is nothing to do with the decor. In theory, imagination is not limited. But in practice, it is. It is a muscle that requires training. And every training regimen requires a lot of positive reinforcement.

[Atalas]

am currently playing a four elements monk using some homebrew changes. Started at level 8, just got to level 16. had a fairly balanced array of stats except for an atrocious Charisma. And since we have another monk, if we want to we can attempt a total stun lock on an enemy. The only thing holding me back so far is range. I somehow have the absolute knack, on any melee based character I play, or starting the combat far and away from the enemy, so the fight is half over by the time I get there. That said, still have a lot of fun, even had an adventure AS a ghost that saved the life of a child and her parents from some hags... even though the child was targeted by the hag's because the party wizard technically sold her to them.

[Pooky the Imp]

The shadow monk is a solid rogue substitute for stealth/theft activities.

They should have a high wisdom, which means they should be able to do well with reading people during social interactions.

Won't the lack of skills (compared to an actual rogue) hamstring them, though?

[BoutsofInsanity]

I have seen a few and played two...

My take is the monk really depends on the game and the DM. At its best, the monk is a total powerhouse with huge versatility and flexability. At worst it is a low damage fighter that doesn't get the support other classes do.

The monk gets some really powerful abilities like martial arts and Ki-empowered strikes, that become really underwhelming if the DM introduces elements like magic weapons or feats that support weapon types that monks do not effectively use.

Likewise mobility is really really valuable and getting to that squishy caster or archer in the back lines is very strong... unless the DM tends to mostly run encounters without a wide variety of enemies with different strengths and weaknesses. You might not be out-damaging a fighter with a monk, but if you are the one hitting the enemy druid to break their concentration then you can be just as valuable.



Bolded for emphasis. This has been my experience. I've said on Reddit several times that Monks require the GM to be ON for encounter design all of the time. If it's constantly just big hit point sponges and high con save enemies the Monk is going to have a bad time. Without terrain, height, and monster variety with differing strengths and weaknesses the Monk is going to feel terrible.

They skirmish real good. And I have a high level Long Death build that I'm willing to put into any campaign and feel good about running. Monks are just so DM dependent it's their big flaw. I think mechanically, when the DM is doing the things they are supposed to do Monks slot right into any game. But if the DM is inexperienced or "lazy", Monks are going to suffer.

Answering the Question: I've loved Monks. I've never seen them not basically be super effective. Granted our group has good DM's so mileage may vary?

[BoutsofInsanity]

Out of interest, how do you think the various Monk subclasses fare outside of combat?

The two subclasses I have played are awesome.

The Long Death Monk has a lot of fringe benefits by being spooky.

Shadow Monk is nuts. Three of the best spells in the game that refresh on a long rest, shadow teleports and combined with a Wisdom Dex package makes them nuts. Shadow Monk if it came out today would be called crazy.

[LudicSavant]

The shadow monk is a solid rogue substitute for stealth/theft activities.

They should have a high wisdom, which means they should be able to do well with reading people during social interactions.

Always nice that they don't need any equipment to be effective if the adventure takes them to a place where weapons, armor and foci are inappropriate, such as the royal ball.

Won't the lack of skills (compared to an actual rogue) hamstring them, though?

*Pass Without Trace is better than pretty much all Roguish bonuses to Stealth. Not to mention that you teleport through shadows and turn invisible at will.

*Silence can get the party through pretty much any door (or even walls) without making a sound. You can also do things like teleport through keyholes, etc.

*Darkvision can be used on the whole party as a 'morning ritual' -- cast it on everyone who needs it, take an hour to refresh the ki, and still have it active for the rest of the adventuring day.

*You can generally navigate the environment without a check better than people with Acrobatics and Athletics Expertise can with checks.

*You generally have more incentive to spend ASIs on Wis boosts, and the corresponding benefit to skills.

*You can understand all languages with Tongue of the Sun and Moon, which is a Nice Thing for spies.

*You don't need the extra effort to smuggle weapons, armor, or thieves tools into somewhere you shouldn't have them, because you didn't need them in the first place.

*Minor Illusion is as useful as it's always been (and also, has no Verbal component, so you can use it without breaking stealth! Have fun with that).

*And you can take Skill Expert as one of your half-feats (it's a good way to boost your starting 17 in Dex or Wis).

*Many of these things (like PWT, Silence, Darkvision, etc) make you a lot better at enabling your team to infiltrate, rather than just you alone (a limitation for many a Rogue). And thus you can draw on their talents (and skills) in your stealthy escapades, which counts for a whole helluva lot. In fact, this may well be the most important bullet point.

[Slipjig]

Won't the lack of skills (compared to an actual rogue) hamstring them, though?

You won't be able to do ALL the things a Rogue can do. But if you know that you are filling the Stealth/Skillmonkey role in the party and plan for that in your build, you can do most of it. You'll probably skip the Face skills and the Sleight-of-Hand, but there's plenty of CHA-based classes for the former, and the latter is usually not mandatory.

[animorte]

-snip- awesome Monk talk -snip-

This is why I have your collection in my sig. Very nicely explained.

I've never had a problem playing or witnessing a Monk, any subclass. They are one of the most reliable classes in the game, especially when you account for a balanced game and varying degrees of resource management.

[MadBear]

Currently playing a Harrengon Way of Mercy monk from levels 1-6. Currently we are having a blast since the other players are a Aaracokra ranger and Tabaxi artillerist. We are a skirmish focused party, where my goal is to semi-tank before jumping back and harrassing the enemy while the others deal dps to them.

So far the monk has been a standout contributer and I don't see that changing anytime soon (especially since I just recently got the tattoo that adds extra damage to unarmed strikes).

The main thing I've been doing to great effect is switching between using ki for flurry, patient defense, and using it to dash and move where I need to be (the Harrengon's jump acts as a free disengage a few times per long rest). So while I can flurry and lay down some pain, or go for a stun, my main contribution is coming from gumming up the works of the enemy.

[Rerem115]

I'm currently playing a Dwarf Way of Mercy monk using the OneDnD playtest material, and I'm having a blast.

Being able to grapple or shove on an Unarmed Strike opens up some really, really efficient battlefield control, and starting with the Healer feat meant that I didn't have to use as many Ki points to heal allies.

[Pooky the Imp]

*Pass Without Trace is better than pretty much all Roguish bonuses to Stealth. Not to mention that you teleport through shadows and turn invisible at will.

*Silence can get the party through pretty much any door (or even walls) without making a sound. You can also do things like teleport through keyholes, etc.

*Darkvision can be used on the whole party as a 'morning ritual' -- cast it on everyone who needs it, take an hour to refresh the ki, and still have it active for the rest of the adventuring day.

*You can generally navigate the environment without a check better than people with Acrobatics and Athletics Expertise can with checks.

*You generally have more incentive to spend ASIs on Wis boosts, and the corresponding benefit to skills.

*You can understand all languages with Tongue of the Sun and Moon, which is a Nice Thing for spies.

*You don't need the extra effort to smuggle weapons, armor, or thieves tools into somewhere you shouldn't have them, because you didn't need them in the first place.

*Minor Illusion is as useful as it's always been (and also, has no Verbal component, so you can use it without breaking stealth! Have fun with that).

*And you can take Skill Expert as one of your half-feats (it's a good way to boost your starting 17 in Dex or Wis).

*Many of these things (like PWT, Silence, Darkvision, etc) make you a lot better at enabling your team to infiltrate, rather than just you alone (a limitation for many a Rogue). And thus you can draw on their talents (and skills) in your stealthy escapades, which counts for a whole helluva lot. In fact, this may well be the most important bullet point.

Would it please you to know that you've completely sold me on the Shadow Monk? :smallwink:

[Zirconia]

I'm in a campaign currently at level 14 with a Sun Soul monk, and it has been handy to have someone with high mobility to get into position to hit a particular target or help a squishy under attack NOW, not a round or two from now. We have also had a couple of fights where being able to fight while effortlessly keeping footing on a difficult surface was handy, and they were great for that. Note that the campaign started at level 10, so we didn't get to see the monk in comparison at low levels.

They do tend to take a bit of a beating, though, and the DM recently gave them a custom magic item to bump their unarmed damage by +1d6/hit to get them more in line with the rest of the group, which is not a terribly optimized group. Also, if I were playing the Monk, I would have taken a couple of levels of Rogue to get the bonus action disengage option for even more mobility.

[Spo]

Also, if I were playing the Monk, I would have taken a couple of levels of Rogue to get the bonus action disengage option for even more mobility.

Mobile feat will give you the same effect and not slow down your monk progression.

[Sigreid]

Would it please you to know that you've completely sold me on the Shadow Monk? :smallwink:

I didn't respond because it was covered so well. hehe

[Person_Man]

Would it please you to know that you've completely sold me on the Shadow Monk? :smallwink:

Shadow Monk is indeed cool, and if you play a monk its one of the better choices.

But lots of casters can get the same exact spells/effects, plus LOTS of other spells/effects, plus comparable at-will DPR. It doesn’t really do anything unique. It just packages semi-common magical effects neatly. So I definitely see the allure for some players, but wish the Monk base class had more more to offer. (It also seems like it would a better subclass for the Rogue).

[Sigreid]

Shadow Monk is indeed cool, and if you play a monk its one of the better choices.

But lots of casters can get the same exact spells/effects, plus LOTS of other spells/effects, plus comparable at-will DPR. It doesn’t really do anything unique. It just packages semi-common magical effects neatly. So I definitely see the allure for some players, but wish the Monk base class had more more to offer. (It also seems like it would a better subclass for the Rogue).

In its original incarnation it was considered a cleric of a sort.

[Witty Username]

(It also seems like it would a better subclass for the Rogue).

That is probably because it was based on the shadow dancer prestige class from 3.5 which was built with rogue in mind, but also worked decently for Bards, Rangers and monks. I only have my personal experience from there but I personally preferred using it for monks because monk didn't lose very much to go into it and shadow dancer didn't progress sneak attack for some reason (I think because it was considered a non-combat class which was more of a thing in 3.5). It seems Wotc agreed with me, and attached it to monk as a subclass.

It's probably something both rogue and monk should have thematicly, but that is arguably a limitation of the subclass system.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

They have lots of little things like Deflect Missiles that're pretty cool, but they really need something with some oomph. I, for one, have always lamented that their so-called "Martial Arts" boils down to an escalating damage die. So boring. And it doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all!

Martial Arts needs to be something to latch on to. Something like:

Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
At level 2, you learn two of the following Martial Arts Techniques, which you can use in place of any of your normal melee attacks. You can use only one technique per attack. You learn the other two Techniques when you reach level 7 in this class.
Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.

- Impairing Strike: You make a light attack to impair the target’s movements or aim. If you hit, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier and impose disadvantage on the next attack roll or Dexterity check the target makes before the end of its next turn.

- Unbalancing Strike: If you hit with this attack roll, the target takes damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the next Strength or Dexterity saving throw or ability check it makes before the end of its next turn is made with disadvantage.

- Disarming Technique: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Strength saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding and deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Disarm action is a damage-less attack roll against the target’s athletics / acrobatics check.)

- Throw: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, it falls prone and takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Shove action replaces an attack with opposed athletics checks.)

(RAW Shove auto-succeeds when the target is incapacitated [as in stunned], but Disarm’s opposed check is unaffected. By contrast, stunned targets auto-fail Str & Dex saves.)


Level 11
Reflexive Techniques:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.


These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet they're also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor. Lvl 11 is when Monks' damage starts falling behind, so I think this is fitting enough.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.


(It may be worth pointing out that the first techniques impose saves, rather than opposed checks, and that they're written to be used in place of any melee attack, rather than being limited to when "using the Attack action" like the standard shove is.)


Like make Intercepting Fist cost 1 ki, then add:
Counter-Attack: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can make a melee attack against it with your reaction. You may substitute this attack with a Martial Arts Technique as usual.
Guard: Spend 1 ki point as a reaction to use Deflect Blow against all of a creature's melee attacks against you for that turn.

OR
Deflect Blows and Counter-Attack could go on lvl 11, then they could get upgraded to Guard and Intercepting Fist (no ki cost) as a capstone buff...

There was a thread a while back asking what excited us about monks. I replied that all the cool maneuvers hooked to learning different martial arts in 2e OA really excited me. What you've got here is similar. It's a shame 5e misses the mark so badly.

[Kane0]

Shadow Monk is indeed cool, and if you play a monk its one of the better choices.

But lots of casters can get the same exact spells/effects, plus LOTS of other spells/effects, plus comparable at-will DPR. It doesn’t really do anything unique. It just packages semi-common magical effects neatly. So I definitely see the allure for some players, but wish the Monk base class had more more to offer. (It also seems like it would a better subclass for the Rogue).

Casters are however somewhat hindered by action economy, spell slots and the one spell per turn limit. They wouldnt be able to move over 30ish feet AND darkness/silence/teleport AND attack with a stun rider in the one turn for example. Most abilities indeed are not unique, but they are a unique combination of them that meshes well together for the most part.

[Arcomage]

I've run a campaign with a Way of Shadow Monk. As a DM, my experience is that the Monk in this case was effective at low-to-mid-level utility. They were the group's best choice for Perception checks as well as Stealth, and their Pass Without Trace was frequently used in conjunction with the Wizard's familiar to scout as well. Darkness is very effective at isolating combatants or disrupting spellcasters, and the teleport-through-shadow feature saw a lot of out-of-combat use.

In combat, their performance was best when there was either a single important enemy in a fight that they could lock down while the others mopped up the minions, or when the fight involved some secondary objective to achieve in the backline (disrupt a spellcaster, rescue a hostage, steal a thing that enemies were trying to guard) while the others engaged melee combatants.

Either way, I feel like the Monk is at their best when they're supporting a party that actually has a viable frontline otherwise and when encounters are built with good uses for their superior mobility in mind. Unfortunately, that does put some onus on the DM to actually provide those things - if it's just a slugfest against brute-type enemies or the Monk is put into a situation where they can choose between rushing into a barrage of ranged attacks or doing nothing at all, the Monk can (and did) feel underpowered.

[Keravath]

I've played a variant human shadow monk with the mobile feat to level 10. Mobility is awesome, they can move around a fight and are able to attack specific vulnerable targets. Shadow step for a bonus action 60' teleport in dim light or darkness is very useful. The spell abilities also come in very useful.

I've also DMed a drunken master monk to level 9 so far. The ability to disengage when spending a ki on flurry of blows is very useful.

As with all monks though, the big feature is stunning strike. There are exceptionally few creatures that are immune to stun and with a DC of 13-15+, a +3 proficient con save in tier 1/early tier 2 fails more than half the time. If they don't have con saves, they fail a lot more often (wizard NPCs for example). Even NPCs with +6 or +8 to con saves in late tier 2 or early tier 3 are failing a bit less than 1/2 the time still (level 9+, 18 wis is a DC of 16). The only time stun doesn't work is when the monk has bad luck and creatures don't fail their saves or the DM cheats. In my experience, it usually takes 1-4 ki expended to stun even a challenging target.

However, as with fighters, the monk is very dependent on short rests. Fighter abilities refresh on a short rest as do monk abilities. They restore all ki after a short rest. When running a game, unless there is a narrative reason that prevents a short rest, the party is usually able to take one. In a game, where a DM or the other players don't permit short rests or where the situation won't allow short rests then the monk (the same as a fighter - battlemaster/rune knight etc) are much more limited in their capability to use their abilities.

[The_Ditto]

I'm currently playing a Variant Human Monk (Ascendant Dragon).
We're currently level 12, started at level 1, of course.

When I first started playing him, I chose Monk, because I had managed to roll above average for initial stats, so that definitely helped. Monk is very dependant on stats, more so than other things (ie weapons/magic/etc), so having some good stats is good.
(12/16/16/10/16/10)
Also note, no 18's, just a really good average of those three 16's make for a great start.
I put my two +1's, into Wis/Dex, bringing them each to 17.
My feat was Resilient - Wisdom, bringing Wis to 18.

I didn't know what subclass I was going to go in yet, however, as it turned, out, we had some encounters/access to some a friendly dragon at the start, so I decided to go ascendant dragon, going with the idea of alighning with the dragon's chi force and hence picking up the powers of the subclass.

Despite most people claiming Monk's are "weak", at no point over those 12 levels did I ever feel weak. My AC has consistently been the highest in the party (even over the Paladin), and my damage has been "steady". Definitely not keeping up with the Paladin, however, the damage is reasonable, and what I call "steady". It's reliable .. it's consistent.

I have never spammed stun in a combat .. only tossed it out at a tactical opportunity .. sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Only twice I recall running out of Ki, with no rest immediately available.

The monk's Ki is fine, it's just about resource management ... sure, you can nova .. but it's probably not your smartest option.

Monk's are fun . but yes, they are a bit MAD, and having a good start with stats can make a big difference. :)

[CTurbo]

I like the 5e Monk. It's a very fun class to play. I've played several Monks and have several more Monk character ideas I want to play.

Groups I play with usually use methods that end with high starting ability scores so I often end up with Monks, Paladins, and unarmored Barbs.

I played a Wood Elf Long Death Monk with 20 Dex and Wis by level 4 and it was a beast of a character. This particular character, with a +2 Spear, was possibly the highest damage dealer in that particular party, and it was definitely the most tanky. Never at anytime in the campaign did I have to roll a death saving throw. He had Mobile, Alert, and Observant so he could be all up in the enemy's face before it could even think.

I played a Tabaxi Open Hand Monk with again, 20 Dex and Wis and Mobile. This guy stayed unarmed and the bonkers movement speed was a lot of fun.

I played a ridiculously over complicated but super fun blind lawful good Human Monk with no subclass, but with 3 gestalt levels of Fiend/Chain Warlock. 20 Dex, 18 Wis, 18 Cha and Imp familiar. This character used a homebrew longspear which was literally just a spear with reach and had the Polearm Master feat. I'll spare the details but he ended up renouncing his pact, dying, getting revived without most of his Warlock abilities and became a full class Long Death Monk.


Monks really do need to boost Dex and Wis more than anything else but they are definitely fun.

[ImproperJustice]

Played a high level 4 Elements Monk in a Strahd / Elemental Evil campaign.

Once I got the upper levels and gained Flight and Fireball refillable on short rests, and then had a bow and a mace of St. Cuthbert for CqC.

He was Tabaxi too, so I would zip around, go Saiyan and fly like 240’ in a round. Shoot some people.

Fireball from above, or water whip a full off the ground, punch him a couple times and then watch em fall back down.

I remember being close to choosing between Cone of Cold or Wall of Stone, but the game fell apart.


Ummm, I have played a Cleric of Light / Kensei as an Undead Hunter, and again tried out the concept with a Ranger (Monster Slayer) / Kensei.

The Ranger version was better. Super Mobile as a Skirmisher or as a boss killer by using the Hunter Thingy and then blazing away with flurries on the following round.

[HPisBS]

Played a high level 4 Elements Monk in a Strahd / Elemental Evil campaign.

Once I got the upper levels and gained Flight and Fireball refillable on short rests, and then had a bow and a mace of St. Cuthbert for CqC.
...

Out of curiosity, how do you think you would've liked my fix (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615777-4-Elements-Monk-Revamped)? Too busy?

Did you feel like it even needed any fix at all? I always felt the EleMonk got too few powers, and that what they did get were too expensive – considering literally everything the archetype gives you costs extra ki (whereas... pretty much all of the other Monk archetypes give you something to do for free, or at least at no extra cost).



There was a thread a while back asking what excited us about monks. I replied that all the cool maneuvers hooked to learning different martial arts in 2e OA really excited me. What you've got here is similar. It's a shame 5e misses the mark so badly.

I know, right?!

[Jak]

Playing a human monk right now in a Kingdom Hearts themed campaign. Still level one, but right now, he's deals solid damage and can act as scout of the party. Planning on taking the ascendant dragon subclass when it comes time, and possibly using the "change into a dragon born" boon from Fizban's; (I think my DM is down with it.)

Playing with a dragonborn fighter and a tiefling bard.


PS: it seems the opinions of monk in this thread are great, which is quite refreshing and encouraging.

[LudicSavant]

Shadow Monk is indeed cool, and if you play a monk its one of the better choices.

But lots of casters can get the same exact spells/effects, plus LOTS of other spells/effects, plus comparable at-will DPR. It doesn’t really do anything unique. It just packages semi-common magical effects neatly. So I definitely see the allure for some players, but wish the Monk base class had more more to offer. (It also seems like it would a better subclass for the Rogue).

If your worry is "casters can be stronger overall" then... well, join the club, it's like that for every martial.

That said, I don't think it's accurate to say that Shadow Monks don't do anything unique, even if we narrow the discussion to just the way they utilize their level 3 feature (that's the one that gives them their spellcasting).

For example, a Shadow Monk can cast Silence, run fast into an ideal position, then KFA-Stunning Strike as a bonus action, then take another Stunning Strike as an OA if the (now teleportless) caster tries to walk out of the area of Silence, and they can add a Precision-Strike-like effect onto either of those rolls. In the case of the build in my sig, they can also attach CC maneuvers onto that.

You can do the same thing with Darkness and people trying to move out of that (especially if you picked up a way to see through Darkness, like the Shadow Monk build in my sig does).

For another example, a Shadow Monk can cast Darkvision on the whole party basically for 'free' because of the fact that it's an all-day, non-concentration effect on a short rest recharge. You can just cast it on the party as if it was a 'one-hour ritual.' Nobody else is gonna be doing that (it's not on the Warlock list, etc).

And all of the above is done on a short rest schedule, and is quite spammable once you get some ki under your belt.

If you want a good example of what a Shadow Monk can do, the Shadow Monk build in my sig can, by tier 2, outburst Action Surging Sharpshooter Samurais and apply up to ten (yes ten) saving throws to a target in a turn. As well as having the options for the KFA silence combo, KFA darkness combo, Pass Without Trace tactics, generating Darkvision for the whole party as a 'morning ritual,' etc.

[ImproperJustice]

Out of curiosity, how do you think you would've liked my fix (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615777-4-Elements-Monk-Revamped)? Too busy?

Did you feel like it even needed any fix at all? I always felt the EleMonk got too few powers, and that what they did get were too expensive – considering literally everything the archetype gives you costs extra ki (whereas... pretty much all of the other Monk archetypes give you something to do for free, or at least at no extra cost).




I know, right?!

I think your fix looks neat. For me, I am the kinda guy that likes Universalist Wizards and Non Specialized Fighters so picking one element feels limiting to me.


As far as my experience?
I guess I approached the class as mainly being a Monk first, who also had some cool options on the side that no one else could do?

Short rests were not super hard to come by, and I am the kind of player who uses all his Mega Elixirs when I need them as opposed to hoarding them for a day that never comes.

So early game, I used water whip whenever I needed to and it was cool to do so. Yanking people into hazards, pulling an archer off a wall, or bringing an enemy mage through his own front line.

And I did regular Monk stuff like Stunning Fist, and step of the Wind when needed.

I tended to use my bow a lot and plink at people from the edges until I found a good soft target or place to get too. I closed a lot of doors on people.

Then as I said, once I got to the Fireball range, I traded one of my powers (Gust of Wind; was good against misty vampires), for Flight.

And then I never felt underpowered. I opened almost every encounter with one or the other and if I couldn’t could still Flurry and Stun punch people.

I never felt like I didn’t have something I could do in any battle and often felt like I had 2-3 options.

It also helped that I had a few great magic items at my disposal. The Mace was a huge one, for solving an in game mystery through RP, Religion, and Perception checks.
Once I had it though, I was a high speed undead slaying machine.

But leading up to it, I did terrible things with a staff of Thunder and Lightning. Which I still kept as a great backup weapon.
I carried a couple smoke bombs which I would toss into enemy back rows too.
I got an amulet of health late game too which really boosted my resilience.

I loved the little elemental cantrip too.

Being Tabaxi, I would warm rocks to sleep on at night, or to use as a campfire / cook stove.
Shedding precipitation. Dust busting with little wind puffs. Lighting torches and smoke bombs and such without flint.

[LudicSavant]

I regard Sun Soul Monks as one of the weakest Monk subclasses in the game currently.

Their level 3 feature wasn't great on release, and it's even less relevant in a post-Tasha's era where you can get shortbows as Monk weapons via Dedicated Weapon (not to mention Gunks being a thing now). The fact that it's a 'special attack' also means it's incompatible with various synergies and buffs that would help other kinds of attacks.

Their level 6 feature is only slightly better than a Four Elements Monk using KFA-Burning Hands (making 2 bonus attacks instead of 1, and having a higher upcast cap). It doesn't help that it requires you to use your Burning Hands immediately after taking the Attack action rather than choosing the timing freely, either.

Their level 11 feature is significantly worse damage than a Fireball. People often talk about the fact that this is a Con-based save, but that's not as big a deal when we're talking about AoEs instead of things focusing the one big guy. No, the real thing they should be talking about is that it's save negates instead of save for half.

People often dramatically underestimate the Save for Half clause.

Chance Enemy Fails Save : Amount Save For Half increases your average DPR over Save Negates
30% : +117%
40% : +75%
50% : +50%
60% : +33%
70% : +21%

As you can see, a "Save for Half" Fireball is doing ~133% as much damage (on average) as a "Save Negates" Fireball if there's a 60% chance to hit. That's no small difference!

So even if you spend the maximum amount of ki on this, this simply isn't measuring up to a real Fireball. Oh sure, it has some advantages like being Radiant damage, and taking 1 less ki than a Four Elements Monk's Fireball, but still. Being "Save Negates" and Con-based is torpedoing its expected damage output, especially since this is a wannabe Fireball you're getting 6 levels late!

You also have the ability to "downcast" it, all the way to 0 ki (for a 2d6 Save Negates Con-based wannabe-Fireball), but that damage is so piddly it's hardly even worth the action. Like, even if you have like 4 or 5 enemies in the AoE, a typical Monk might have been better off just punching 3 times for ~10 damage each (depending on their AC and saves).

And their level 17 feature is just too little, too late.

[Sparky McDibben]

I'm a simple man - I see a monk thread where the last poster was Ludic, and I click on it.

[animorte]

I'm a simple man - I see a monk thread where the last poster was Ludic, and I click on it.

A monk thread? You mean, as opposed to any thread? Wherever that name is, you know nearby is some creative theory-crafting. A lot of it becomes actively tested or presented examples of such testing to prove it no longer theory. It's exciting.

[Witty Username]

I would go as far to say sun soul monk is the weakest subclass in the game, if not the worst (I can see an argument for subclasses that are worse in terms of design but are technically more powerful).


I would direct all concerned to 4 elements monk, it has technical problems but it more fun and it's features do in fact do stuff.

[CTurbo]

I would go as far to say sun soul monk is the weakest subclass in the game, if not the worst (I can see an argument for subclasses that are worse in terms of design but are technically more powerful).


I would direct all concerned to 4 elements monk, it has technical problems but it more fun and it's features do in fact do stuff.

I've never played Sun Soul or Four Elements, but on paper, I would much rather play Sun Soul than Four Elements for sure. Sun Soul seems simple but effective. Four Elements doesn't interest me at all.

[Amechra]

I really enjoyed playing THE BIRB (her actual name was a dove call, but the DM couldn't whistle) Kenku Drunken Master in a game that spanned T2 and T3.

Most of her subclass was basically pointless, but Drunken Technique felt really good (because I could zoom around the battlefield). It definitely helped that the DM was using the rules for Disarming stuff from the DMG and ruled that my Monk could use Stunning Strike as part of the same attack as a Disarm.

On the flip side, I've played a couple other Monks with my current group, and they've all been pretty meh. I chalk that up to a difference in game styles — in the first group, combat tended to be pretty scarce (meaning you'd generally get a short rest between fights) and tended to not be terribly sloggy. In my new group, however, combat happens all the time and they tend to be complete slugfests. It doesn't help that a lot of the more recent D&D sessions have been combat-focused one-shot boxes, which are really just strings of white-room fights.

[LudicSavant]

Long Death Monks are weird, as one might expect of SCAG material by now.

They're also surprisingly meaty. Like you can straight up tank with a Long Death Monk, including having some decent control abilities. Especially at later levels. In exchange, they're offensively weaker than some of the other Monk subclasses. Though there is at least the fact that you can position more aggressively as a result of your tankiness (and maybe get more OAs -- which you can apply Stunning S to if you want -- as a result of being an undesirable target).

Their level 3 feature can be used to have (Wis+level) temp HP up at the start of every fight -- either by being careful about how you finish off your foes, or by just like, eating a spider from a jar or something you sadistic weirdo (oddly, this is something their flavor text suggests might actually be in-character. "They capture creatures and prepare elaborate experiments to capture, record, and understand the moments of their demise. They use this knowledge to guide their understanding of martial arts, yielding a deadly fighting style." So perhaps for once, the Bag of Rats design is actually intentional...? Who knows, SCAG is weird)

So we can effectively treat an optimal Long Death Monk as having an extra (Wis+Level) hp per combat. And a possibility of getting a little extra mid-combat with mooks or the like.

This basically helps you make up for the fact that you've got a d8 HD and tertiary Con. It also means that Long Death Monks sort of have anti-synergy with party compositions that regularly generate temp hp already (like Glamour Bards or Twilight Clerics).

Their Level 6 feature is a ki-free, wide AoE fear effect! As AoE options for martials go, this ain't too shabby. But it also doesn't say anything about avoiding friendly fire, so presumably it can scare your allies, too, which can make positioning for it trickier. Why does it terrify your allies too? I don't know man, SCAG is weird.

Anyways, an enemy that is Frightened can't approach you, and ranged weapon attacks suuuuck against you (because of Deflect Missiles). Doubly so if they have Disadvantage. And you've got Evasion for people flinging explosions. But importantly, this also protects your allies, instead of just you. As long as you aren't friendly firing them with it.

Their Level 11 feature is a doozy. It means they can have as many death gates as they have ki points. 1 ki for an action-free Death Ward? That's a good deal, my guy.

Like, okay, you're probably going to want to use some ki to protect allies instead of just yourself. But if you want to kill a Long Death Monk going full defense? My goodness, you'd have to go through 11-20 death gates to take down a Long Death Monk. It doesn't matter if those hits are bloody meteor swarms or critical gigasmites, they're only taking 1 gate. That's after you got them to zero (the point where you'd normally win) through their usual defenses (temp hp, fear, evasion, etc). And they'll get (14-25) temp hp back as soon as they knock something to 0. Also, Tier 3 and 4 are when Monks start stacking up meaningful defensive features (like Diamond Soul and Empty Body) and... well, let's just say you can become one tough customer. But there's a balancing act to be done between being virtually indestructible and, you know, using your ki to stop your allies from getting killed.

Their level 17 feature can spend a whopping 1-10 ki points for 11-110 average damage, respectively (Con save for half). While that's a lot of ki, and targeting Con saves isn't ideal (especially for single target stuff), this can guarantee a finish on a particularly dangerous or well-defended enemy (since half the damage auto-hits, regardless of what they do). Like, say an enemy has a 50% chance to save, this is still doing about 83 average damage, no questions asked. Even if they have a Legendary save, it's 55 damage, no questions asked. That reliability has value.

EDIT: Bonus rant: Dwarven Fortitude Monks
There was a meme going around for a while about being a Hill Dwarf Long Death Monk with Dwarven Fortitude. The idea was that since Dwarven Fortitude works on Dodge, and Monks can do Dodge as a bonus action, it must be good on Monks! And which Monk is the tank monk? The Long Death one, so that must mean Dwarven Fortitude meme Monks must be good with Long Death!

Let's just say I'd generally advise against it. See, Long Death Monks don't actually scale with the bonus hp from Dwarven Fortitude better than any other Monk does. It doesn't make the temp HP generation any more valuable. It doesn't make their death gates any more valuable. And the healing isn't actually giving you extra healing throughout the day, it's only changing the timing you get it, which isn't helpful unless those small chunks of healing are actually the difference between dying and not dying (and it's generally like, a drop in the bucket as far as how much it takes to put down a Long Death Monk).

What's more, you probably don't want to be using Step of the Wind Dodge that often, and the Dwarven Fortitude healing isn't big enough to change that calculus much. Especially since it doesn't really scale -- you're basically always going to be healing 1d8+Con (6.5 hp) with that.

It also means that you're using one of your precious ASIs on Dwarven Fortitude, and that means stuff like your AC is scaling slower, and hurts your offense (making you easier to ignore). And unlike that little bit of healing, AC does synergize with all of the Long Death defenses. Every time someone wants to take another one of those death gates they have to hit you first, after all.

Back when the meme was going around, it was even worse because Tasha's wasn't a thing yet, so you were basically putting yourself back two precious ASIs. Oof.

If you wanna build a Dwarf Monk, one thing you can do is be a Mountain Dwarf, start with 17 Dex / 17 Wis from Tasha's, then bump up to 18/18 at level 4. And end up with the statline you want 4 levels earlier than the competition.

[Witty Username]

Can the 11th level feature on long death avoid the death by massive damage clause?

I know that gets some similar features like the Zealot rage feature but not others like the Samurai thing.

[JNAProductions]

Can the 11th level feature on long death avoid the death by massive damage clause?

I know that gets some similar features like the Zealot rage feature but not others like the Samurai thing.

Yup. Nothing in there about "When reduced to zero HP and not immediately dead."

[LudicSavant]

Can the 11th level feature on long death avoid the death by massive damage clause?

It avoids almost everything, including the massive damage clause (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1050534932919988224?lang=en).

You could drop the moon on a 1 hp Long Death Monk and it would cost them 1 ki.

[CTurbo]

Long Death Monks are weird, as one might expect of SCAG material by now.

They're also surprisingly meaty. Like you can straight up tank with a Long Death Monk, including having some decent control abilities. Especially at later levels. In exchange, they're offensively weaker than some of the other Monk subclasses. Though there is at least the fact that you can position more aggressively as a result of your tankiness (and maybe get more OAs -- which you can apply Stunning S to if you want -- as a result of being an undesirable target).

Their level 3 feature can be used to have (Wis+level) temp HP up at the start of every fight -- either by being careful about how you finish off your foes, or by just like, eating a spider from a jar or something you sadistic weirdo (oddly, this is something their flavor text suggests might actually be in-character. "They capture creatures and prepare elaborate experiments to capture, record, and understand the moments of their demise. They use this knowledge to guide their understanding of martial arts, yielding a deadly fighting style." So perhaps for once, the Bag of Rats design is actually intentional...? Who knows, SCAG is weird)

So we can effectively treat an optimal Long Death Monk as having an extra (Wis+Level) hp per combat. And a possibility of getting a little extra mid-combat with mooks or the like.

This basically helps you make up for the fact that you've got a d8 HD and tertiary Con. It also means that Long Death Monks sort of have anti-synergy with party compositions that regularly generate temp hp already (like Glamour Bards or Twilight Clerics).

Their Level 6 feature is a ki-free, wide AoE fear effect! As AoE options for martials go, this ain't too shabby. But it also doesn't say anything about avoiding friendly fire, so presumably it can scare your allies, too, which can make positioning for it trickier. Why does it terrify your allies too? I don't know man, SCAG is weird.

Anyways, an enemy that is Frightened can't approach you, and ranged weapon attacks suuuuck against you (because of Deflect Missiles). Doubly so if they have Disadvantage. And you've got Evasion for people flinging explosions. But importantly, this also protects your allies, instead of just you. As long as you aren't friendly firing them with it.

Their Level 11 feature is a doozy. It means they can have as many death gates as they have ki points. 1 ki for an action-free Death Ward? That's a good deal, my guy.

Like, okay, you're probably going to want to use some ki to protect allies instead of just yourself. But if you want to kill a Long Death Monk going full defense? My goodness, you'd have to go through 11-20 death gates to take down a Long Death Monk. It doesn't matter if those hits are bloody meteor swarms or critical gigasmites, they're only taking 1 gate. That's after you got them to zero (the point where you'd normally win) through their usual defenses (temp hp, fear, evasion, step of the wind). And they'll get (14-25) temp hp back as soon as they knock something to 0. Also, Tier 3 and 4 are when Monks start stacking up meaningful defensive features (like Diamond Soul and Empty Body) and... well, let's just say you can become one tough customer. But there's a balancing act to be done between being virtually indestructible and, you know, using your ki to stop your allies from getting killed.

Their level 17 feature can spend a whopping 1-10 ki points for 11-110 average damage, respectively (Con save for half). While that's a lot of ki, and targeting Con saves isn't ideal (especially for single target stuff), this can guarantee a finish on a particularly dangerous or well-defended enemy (since half the damage auto-hits, regardless of what they do). Like, say an enemy has a 50% chance to save, this is still doing about 83 average damage, no questions asked. Even if they have a Legendary save, it's 55 damage, no questions asked. That reliability has value.

EDIT: Bonus rant: Dwarven Fortitude Monks
There was a meme going around for a while about being a Hill Dwarf Long Death Monk with Dwarven Fortitude. The idea was that since Dwarven Fortitude works on Dodge, and Monks can do Dodge as a bonus action, it must be good on Monks! And which Monk is the tank monk? The Long Death one, so that must mean Dwarven Fortitude meme Monks must be good with Long Death!

Let's just say I'd generally advise against it. See, Long Death Monks don't actually scale with the bonus hp from Dwarven Fortitude better than any other Monk does. It doesn't make the temp HP generation any more valuable. It doesn't make their death gates any more valuable. And the healing isn't actually giving you extra healing throughout the day, it's only changing the timing you get it, which isn't helpful unless those small chunks of healing are actually the difference between dying and not dying (and it's generally like, a drop in the bucket as far as how much it takes to put down a Long Death Monk).

What's more, you probably don't want to be using Step of the Wind Dodge that often, and the Dwarven Fortitude healing isn't big enough to change that calculus much. Especially since it doesn't really scale -- you're basically always going to be healing 1d8+Con (6.5 hp) with that.

It also means that you're using one of your precious ASIs on Dwarven Fortitude, and that means stuff like your AC is scaling slower, and hurts your offense (making you easier to ignore). And unlike that little bit of healing, AC does synergize with all of the Long Death defenses. Every time someone wants to take another one of those death gates they have to hit you first, after all.

Back when the meme was going around, it was even worse because Tasha's wasn't a thing yet, so you were basically putting yourself back two precious ASIs. Oof.

If you wanna build a Dwarf Monk, one thing you can do is be a Mountain Dwarf, start with 17 Dex / 17 Wis from Tasha's, then bump up to 18/18 at level 4. And end up with the statline you want 4 levels earlier than the competition.


Yeah Long Death Monks are my favorite for sure. My 20 Dex/Wis and 18 Con Wood Elf Long Death would stay on the front lines. I would single a target until it died, and then run to the next and repeat. I never at any time rolled a death saving throw with that character. With 20 Dex and a +2 Spear, I was more than happy with the DPR too.


Their level 11 feature is high on the list of most broken abilities in the game. They could survive a nuke to the face as long as they have 1 ki remaining.

[Witty Username]

Yup. Nothing in there about "When reduced to zero HP and not immediately dead."

But you would have still taken damage equal to or greater than your current HP + Max HP, wouldn't that mean your still dead (just dead at 1 HP which is admittedly really weird).

Edit: Missed the JC response, hazards of phone browsing. Sorry about that.

[CTurbo]

But you would have still taken damage equal to or greater than your current HP + Max HP, wouldn't that mean your still dead (just dead at 1 HP which is admittedly really weird).

Mastery of Death
Beginning at 11th level, you use your familiarity with death to escape its grasp. When you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can expend 1 ki point (no action required) to have 1 hit point instead.

Doesn't matter how much damage you take. Spend 1 ki point and have 1 hp.

[HPisBS]

EDIT: Bonus rant: Dwarven Fortitude Monks
There was a meme going around for a while about being a Hill Dwarf Long Death Monk with Dwarven Fortitude. The idea was that since Dwarven Fortitude works on Dodge, and Monks can do Dodge as a bonus action, it must be good on Monks! And which Monk is the tank monk? The Long Death one, so that must mean Dwarven Fortitude meme Monks must be good with Long Death!

Let's just say I'd generally advise against it. See, Long Death Monks don't actually scale with the bonus hp from Dwarven Fortitude better than any other Monk does. It doesn't make the temp HP generation any more valuable. It doesn't make their death gates any more valuable. And the healing isn't actually giving you extra healing throughout the day, it's only changing the timing you get it, which isn't helpful unless those small chunks of healing are actually the difference between dying and not dying (and it's generally like, a drop in the bucket as far as how much it takes to put down a Long Death Monk).

What's more, you probably don't want to be using Step of the Wind Dodge that often, and the Dwarven Fortitude healing isn't big enough to change that calculus much. Especially since it doesn't really scale -- you're basically always going to be healing 1d8+Con (6.5 hp) with that.

It also means that you're using one of your precious ASIs on Dwarven Fortitude, and that means stuff like your AC is scaling slower, and hurts your offense (making you easier to ignore). And unlike that little bit of healing, AC does synergize with all of the Long Death defenses. Every time someone wants to take another one of those death gates they have to hit you first, after all.

Back when the meme was going around, it was even worse because Tasha's wasn't a thing yet, so you were basically putting yourself back two precious ASIs. Oof.

If you wanna build a Dwarf Monk, one thing you can do is be a Mountain Dwarf, start with 17 Dex / 17 Wis from Tasha's, then bump up to 18/18 at level 4. And end up with the statline you want 4 levels earlier than the competition.


You're right that it doesn't directly enhance any LD features, but it does clearly synergize with a tank who can dodge while still attacking.

Say you're surrounded. You need to tank for the squishies, but you're low on hp. Which is better? Spending 4-ish ki on those "death gates," or spending 1 ki to dodge, then only spending 2-ish ki on those "gates?"

Now, building the meme and just healing this way once (as in, up from 1 hp) probably won't be enough to save even a single "gate" ki, but say you start dodging while you still have some hp to spare. Then, the healing gets to stack up and can save a gate or two, assuming the OpFor even manage to damage you that much to begin with while you're keeping them at disadvantage.

(It's important to remember that the lvl 6 isn't always the better play, since it relies on the enemies failing their saves and doesn't let you make any attacks. Besides, if you frighten them, they might not really feel like standing next to you to attack you [depending on how the DM plays them]. And if you don't manage to frighten them, they don't even particularly need to attack you, since you're not actively harming them like the flashy wizard is. Either way, attacking makes you more of a priority, and thus a better tank.)


IMO, the benefit of the memed build isn't that LD "scales with the bonus healing" or anything, but that it reduces your reliance on that awesome lvl 11 feature to tank.

[CTurbo]

I almost never used the Dodge action with any of my Monks so I would never consider Dwarven Fortitude for a Monk, but I think it's a GREAT feat for Clerics that like to utilize Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon. I do like to use Dodge on my Clerics to help maintain concentration while still dishing out a ton of damage just by existing around the front line.

[LudicSavant]

You're right that it doesn't directly enhance any LD features, but it does clearly synergize with a tank who can dodge while still attacking.

Say you're surrounded. You need to tank for the squishies, but you're low on hp. Which is better? Spending 4-ish ki on those "death gates," or spending 1 ki to dodge, then only spending 2-ish ki on those "gates?"

Obviously, 'tis better to spend 3 ki than 4. The question is whether you'll actually be saving resources by investing in Dwarven Fortitude instead of things like Dex increases or other feats.

Try this experiment: Go Dodge with a traditional Monk, then compare to the results of a Monk Dodging with Dwarven Fortitude (who will have at least 1 less AC, and therefore less effective Dodges). Then consider that said Dwarven Fortitude Monk will be worse at tasks that aren't dodging, like AC, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Strike, inflicting fear with Hour of Reaping, or even just killing things earlier (and generating temp HP from doing so). Also consider that they aren't actually gaining more total healing over the course of the day, just changing the timing to use it (which has some benefit, but not as much as adding additional healing resources).

Edit To be fair though, the dwarven fortitude combo isn't as bad as it used to be, because at least you can switch out the stats for dwarves now. It used to be that people were putting themselves 2 feats behind (3 behind a VHuman Monk) by doing this.

Edit2:

Okay so let's try this out.

Say you're a level 11 Mountain Dwarf Long Death Monk. You have a choice between boosting your Dex to 20, or taking Dwarven Fortitude.

Let's say we're then fighting, oh, some Shadar-Kai Soul Mongers (random CR 11 monster from MPMM) focusing on us with dagger attacks. We Dodge.

Now, if we took Dwarven Fortitude, we take ~23% extra DPR from the enemy's attacks while we're Dodging. Also, when we're at 1 hp, we also use up ki about 23% faster, too (because we're more likely to be hit). Yes, 1 AC actually makes that much of a difference (because AC synergizes well with Dodge).

Now, a Shadar-Kai Soul Monger does 32 damage on a successful hit (and attacks twice per turn). If they hit just once, you'd have to take 5 rounds (and 5 ki of Dodges) to heal that back with Dwarven Fortitude. It's not quick. And it'll only get slower as you level up (because the rate it heals now is the rate it'll heal for the rest of your career, while other things will be scaling).

You'd get +11 base hp from bumping our Con up to 16 (going from 80 to 91 base). But that's not a huge % increase, especially since we'll also be generating temp HP -- 15 per kill. Also, you'll be worse at every task that involves Dexterity (which is most of them, as a Monk).

[Amechra]

Clearly, what needs to be done is that you need to combine the "Dwarf Monk" meme with the "Armored Monk" meme, and see how that works out for you.

Jokes aside, a Mountain Dwarf Kensei could be a fun (if silly and questionably effective) meme character. Pick up Heavily Armored and Dwarven Fortitude, reserve your Ki for Dodge Healing and Deft Strike, and go from there.

EDIT: Or start with one level of Barbarian for Shield Proficiency + Con-based Unarmored Defense, and go from there. Then, at least, Dwarven Fortitude with give you +1 AC.

[animorte]

[
EDIT: Or start with one level of Barbarian for Shield Proficiency + Con-based Unarmored Defense, and go from there. Then, at least, Dwarven Fortitude with give you +1 AC.

Yeah do this. I’ve used this Barbarian dip exactly (race varies) for multiple different dueling builds. Very effective. Have also paired with Shield Master.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I love that while this thread is active, simultaneously, in another active thread, this opinion is shared:

Don't play a monk, monks are bad underwhelming. The only thing they actually excel at is mobility, which is nifty but not very strong in the scheme of things. Running away and avoiding being hit might feel like you're "doing something," but you're really not.
.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650611-Seeking-help-making-a-martial-with-combat-versatility

Variety, is the spice of life.

[animorte]

I love that while this thread is active, simultaneously
Agreed, amusing. This is exactly why I started a thread many months ago, Everybody Loves Monks, (“https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?643689-Everybody-loves-Monks”) because we just can’t stop talking about them!

[HPisBS]

Snip

Why is feat vs ASI the comparison? I wouldn't recommend taking any feats before maxing the main stats unless it happened to also boost said (main) modifier.

[animorte]

Why is feat vs ASI the comparison? I wouldn't recommend taking any feats before maxing the main stats unless it happened to also boost said (main) modifier.

Because there’s a lot more to the game than just numbers.

[HPisBS]

Because there’s a lot more to the game than just numbers.

OK.......?

[CTurbo]

I agree that maxing Wis and especially Dex is more important than any feat for a Monk outside of pure flavor reasons.

I also think that the Monk class should have gotten an extra ASI somewhere like the Rogue since ASIs are so important.

[Amechra]

I also think that the Monk class should have gotten an extra ASI somewhere like the Rogue since ASIs are so important.

It's kinda frustrating that the two classes (three, if you count Armorer Artificers) that are arguably the least MAD are the ones that got extra ASIs. That feels almost exactly backwards.

(I had a big, rambling thing here talking about what makes a class MAD that I erased because it was borderline incoherent.)

[sambojin]

This thread is at least making me come around to the fact that Monks are "ok'ish", and pretty fun to play.

I've always been in the camp of "precisely what can a lvl1-10 monk do that a lvl2-6 Moon druid couldn't?" (Or any lvl2-6 druid for that matter). Seems like a fair bit.

Constant use of bonus actions for a start. And while you can build for it with a Druid, you don't really have to as a Monk. I could see myself using a fair bit of ki on non-punchy moves pretty much constantly as a Monk. They still seem a bit ki-starved early, but by about lvl7+ they're probably not too bad.

(In some ways they are Moon'ish. They're not the top DPRmonsters, but mobility and effects count for a lot in actual play. Just like a Cleric has a smug smile when Bless allows that smite to work, or flattens movement with SG, or a Druid just spiderclimbs/ jumps/ high movements around all that "well made encounter stuff", or ups party DPS with restrain-on-hit, the Monk can do a fair bit too. Especially at later levels. Their good stuff is really good when it works, but their normal 1-2ki no-roll stuff is great as well, when it's tacked onto their base abilities)

((I would still rather Moon wildshape, even if it only lasted a round or two, than Monk Ki as it currently is, any time. They really should get +Wismod Ki/sr, to make them good at low levels, and great at high ones
Every time I've thought about playing a Monk, I've just gone Druid instead (maybe with 1lvl of Monk for +AC if I chose Moon). I still think that's the right choice for mobility/utility, because 2/sr "do damn near anything for ages" is marvellous, but maybe lots of punchy/utility/easy sometimes would be fun as well. And a lot simpler than "stat-blocks of abilities/ beasts" being required to be handed to the DM constantly as well. It's probably unfair to compare them to a really good class, but it doesn't actually sound like they're as bad as people make them out to be. Still, spells and DnD and stuff....))

(((Hopefully 1DnD gives them a boost. The Ranger UA isn't bad, for all that it is. Hopefully Monks come out lvl1-5 good as well. Like Ki from lvl1, etc. And maybe a lvl6 ASI on top of whatever other "ribbons/ actuals")))

[LudicSavant]

Why is feat vs ASI the comparison? I wouldn't recommend taking any feats before maxing the main stats unless it happened to also boost said (main) modifier.

Because the meme build (as I had often seen it depicted) was taking Dwarven Fortitude ASAP, before maxing stats. Actually it was even worse than that -- when the meme was going around, Tasha's wasn't a thing yet, so people were picking Hill Dwarf (putting themselves a Dex ASI behind) and then taking Dwarven Fortitude (putting them another Dex ASI behind).

If you'd like I can compare it to other feats, instead.

If you're taking Dwarven Fortitude only after maxxing Dex and Wis, we might well be level 16 or 19 by that point. And ~7 healing as a rider when you Dodge (something that you'll only want to do situationally anyway) is just not a lot at that level. While it can make a small difference, it's also entirely possible that even if you spend the entire combat Dodging, you might not have even bought one extra attack worth of survival (from Dwarven Fortitude's healing, as opposed to just dodging normally).

So, what feats might we have taken instead?

Well, there's some other +1 Con feats, like Aberrant Dragonmark which will give you a cantrip and Shield 1/short rest. Or Crusher for the usual reasons Monks take it. Or Skill Expert.

There's also stuff like Defensive Duelist, which becomes more useful once your proficiency bonus has scaled. It may only work against one attack per Reaction, but it's still turning that hit into a miss, and at this level a single attack can easily be more damage than Dwarven Fortitude would heal (or rather, borrow healing from the future) even if you decided to use 100% of your bonus actions on Dodge.

Or you could grab something like Gift of the Metallic Dragon for what is basically 5 or 6x Absorb Elements / day, and weapon damage buff 1/day.

There's also Alert, which will help immunize you to Surprise (very dangerous), unseen foes, vision blockers (which your group can take advantage of by using them more proactively), and of course will help you go first (so that you even get to dodge -- or otherwise take suppressive action -- before the enemy attacks you).

[Sindal]

Mercy monk experience here

Playing as my monk has been a fun experience. He's a bugbear from very very humble beginnings trying to make an honest name for himself. Wears his mask in an attempt to be a bit more socially accepted (he can't hide that he's a bugbear, but he can be nicer to look at atleast)

-ki is something you always use, and it's nice to have a resource that your encouraged to spend often unless you really have to pace yourself
-being speedy is useful. Perhaps it's my DM but I've had to do an awful lot of running to threats. In currently bait, so I'm hoping that my speediest continues
- being able to dodge or disengage easier is also nice. Spending your turn just to dodge often feels kinda sucky from a turn point of view so it helps down there 'active' feel

-I haven't been using my subclass features as much , but having the backup heal has useful. I look forward to a day when my mercy monk features are potent. Thr fact fhay I xan just throw disadvantage onto anything that isn't immune to poison is cool.

-bit of a joke but anytime our fighter needs to sneak he groans. It's nice to have a respectable ac (not amazing bur respectable) without much drawback.

Special dm side note: I have some neat homebrewed unarmed strike enhancing greaves that we found in some frozen lab. So my legs are basicly greatswords with reach. I wouldn't say this has greatly affected my opinion of monks since I could have just have easily found a sick magic axe on a fighter but it's nice to be catered for.

All in all. I've found playing a monk to be fun. Oddly enough I've become the spiritual home of the party, thay we've jokingly started calling him "Brother Bruttin". Both for the familial aspect and the allusion to religious monks. (Bruttins recently found faith in one)

[HPisBS]

Well, there's some other +1 Con feats, like Aberrant Dragonmark which will give you a cantrip and Shield 1/short rest. Or Crusher for the usual reasons Monks take it. Or Skill Expert.

Somehow, I always forget the Dragonmark spell is 1/short rest lol. It really breaks the mold.

So yeah, that'd be better, no question. And I guess Mind Sliver for the cantrip, assuming your Con is decent by then. Otherwise, you're basically left grabbing whatever utility the party lacks.



There's also stuff like Defensive Duelist, which becomes more useful once your proficiency bonus has scaled. It may only work against one attack per Reaction, but it's still turning that hit into a miss, and at this level a single attack can easily be more damage than Dwarven Fortitude would heal (or rather, borrow healing from the future) even if you decided to use 100% of your bonus actions on Dodge.

And I keep on discounting Defensive Duelist for those two reasons, when I really shouldn't.

[LudicSavant]

The Drunken Master’s subclass abilities focus almost entirely on making them personally more difficult to attack, either by disengaging, negating disadvantage on saves, or punishing misses.

The trouble is, their abilities only really work if they’re getting targeted, and they don't really have the sort of abilities that would make them a priority target. Moreover, other Monk subclasses (like Mercy) can provide defensive tools that are both stronger and more unselfish.

Level 3: The Disengage only works while using Flurry of Blows. You know what else works while using Flurry of Blows? The Open Hand Monk's knockback/prone/reaction-shutoff (and the last of those allows no save). I know which one I'd rather have at level 3!

What's more, this is purely a personal defense, it doesn't protect your party members or make you more dangerous so that they'd feel a greater need to chase you down. ALL it is doing is keeping you out of range.

Level 6: Tipsy Sway makes you double-safe against ranged attacks by letting you disengage and drop prone (on top of your Deflect Missiles and such). But also makes you more vulnerable to melee attacks (which kinda seems out of theme, drunken masters often drop prone while fighting melee guys in Jackie Chan movies).

But whatever, if I talked about how many things it doesn't do that Jackie Chan can, we'd be here all year (Jackie Chan fans deserve so much better than this subclass). So the second thing Tipsy Sway does is Redirect Attack. This feature is weird. When a creature misses you with an attack, you can use 1 ki to make that attack hit another creature within 5 feet of you. This means that you could potentially do something like have an ally close their eyes, miss you, and then make their inaccurate attack auto-hit someone else. Janky.

Anyways, this solid potential damage for a reaction, because monster attacks can often be pretty beefy. The problem is that they need to miss you first (less likely the beefier the single hit is), and that it has to be a melee attack roll, and it has to be redirected to another creature (not the attacker) within 5 feet, meaning you need to have multiple enemies, and they need to be positioned just so, making it very situational. It even requires "an enemy you can see" to hedge it out of even more scenarios.

A problem here is that again, your features are mostly personal defense. You're not adding much to protect and serve the party, instead of just you, here.

Level 11: Drunkard's Luck just cancels disadvantage on a single roll, before making the roll. This doesn't take any extra action economy, which is nice. But it eats not one but 2 whole ki, and is only very situationally better than existing uses of ki, which is considerably less nice. And again it seems to be pushing back against enemies doing negative things to you, specifically... rather than protecting the party or increasing your offense. Let's get some damn presence here!

I mean, yes, you can use this to negate disadvantage on an attack too, but you know what else you could do for 2 ki already? You could use Focused Aim to add +4 to an Attack roll, *after* seeing the result (rather than before, like with this). This is almost never worth using to negate Disadvantage on a single attack.

Level 17: It basically gives Flurry of Blows up to 3 extra attacks, but only if all of the attacks (including the first two!) attack different creatures so you're only getting the full value if you melee attack 5 different foes. It's okay, but it's just too little, too late.

___

As such I rate Drunken Master red. My impression is that its defenses are selfish, its presence lacking, and perhaps its chief sin, its abilities too situational to really shine in Jackie-Chan-style opportunistic improvisation. As a Jackie Chan fan, this makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Edit: I have further commentary on the Drunken Master later in the thread, here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25622746&postcount=108

[strangebloke]

Shadow monk did a lot of work in my long-running game that went to level 15. Consistently generated huge value as a stealth leader and had good damage with a few items + darkness cheese.



As such I rate Drunken Master red. My impression is that its defenses are selfish, its presence lacking, and perhaps its chief sin, its abilities too situational to really shine in Jackie-Chan-style opportunistic improvisation. As a Jackie Chan fan, this makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Hard agree. Its a terrible subclass, and just unappealing on a really basic level. The only thing that really feels in flavor here is the dropping prone mid combat thing, which.... as you point out, makes this character very aggressively not a melee character. Its sort of this general trend where they just kind of forget to make monk actually good at dealing damage in melee, as though that's the niche of the barbarian or something and thus holy ground that cannot be trod upon.

I think its particularly notable that if you build a drunken archer, you're much better able to make use of the OA mitigation and free proning. Everyone has disadvantage against you and you deflect their missiles on top of that? That's a pretty effective character!

But its completely thematically discordant with what the class is supposed to be doing.

Give me something where my AC goes up as I take damage, or my damage goes up against people who just missed me. Let me spit alcohol in people's eyes or do cool tricks with improvised weapons.

[Verble]

What do you all think about the Heavy Armor, Heavy Weapon using Fight 1/Shadow Monk X?

It's probably not that strong but it seemed a fun way to build a monk differently.

I first heard it on Treantmonk and my take is as follows.

We play the Midgard setting, so use Trollkin for dark vision, 1d6 claws and bite, intimidate, HD healing, I'd probably prefer Sibeccai for the race(they get intimidate and insight) but the Trollkin is very fitting for theme and getting in touch with his fey/hag ancestry and inherent shadow magic.

Take High Str/Con/Wis with 13 Dex for multiclass. Some DMs might let you bypass this requirement if you explain your concept.

Start as fighter with the blind fighting style, which fits nicely with Darkness spell ability from the monk for easy access to advantage to your attacks with GWM.

Use Maul as weapon and take Great Weapon Master feat for the Power Attack and Cleave effects. You can alternatively take Polearm Master and go with spear and shield using your bonus action, but this competes with your bonus action teleport and a free hand for spellcasting. You can use Ki Fueled Strikes with a two handed longsword but it seems a lesser option than the heavy weapon and GWM feat.

Take Heavy Armor for maximal AC. This disables the abilities from the Monks martial arts abilities as well as some others. You lose bonus action unarmed strike, dex to hit with monk weapons, and improved martial arts die, and the unarmed movement increase, which granted is a lot. You can still use your ki point abilities, flurry of blows(with your natural weapons die), step of the wind, and patient defense. If I read it right although you don't gain bonus movement you can still run across water or up walls which can helpfully augment your teleport.

There is no problem with using stunning strike with a maul in heavy armor and is another way besides your teleport and Darkness spell to generate advantage. Pass Without Trace means you also benefit greatly and are able to stealth with your party.

You give up alot of what makes monks monks but I thought it was interesting to build it this way. You get minor illusion for some out of combat utility but I usually like to have more if I can.

Any thoughts?

[Amnestic]

Take High Str/Con/Wis with 13 Dex for multiclass.

"Make the monk even more MAD" isn't exactly a stellar point especially when you're now also trying to take feats which further delay your ASIs.

If you get hella lucky with rolls, sure, but what's your pointbuy spread here?

15(+1)/13/14/10/12(+2)/8?

Seems like you're spread a bit thin to me.



There is no problem with using stunning strike with a maul in heavy armor and is another way besides your teleport and Darkness spell to generate advantage.

Shadow Monks can't see through their darkness. You would need to invest another feat into Devil's Sight invocation for this.

[strangebloke]

What do you all think about the Heavy Armor, Heavy Weapon using Fight 1/Shadow Monk X?

It's probably not that strong but it seemed a fun way to build a monk differently.

I first heard it on Treantmonk and my take is as follows.

We play the Midgard setting, so use Trollkin for dark vision, 1d6 claws and bite, intimidate, HD healing, I'd probably prefer Sibeccai for the race(they get intimidate and insight) but the Trollkin is very fitting for theme and getting in touch with his fey/hag ancestry and inherent shadow magic.

Take High Str/Con/Wis with 13 Dex for multiclass. Some DMs might let you bypass this requirement if you explain your concept.

Start as fighter with the blind fighting style, which fits nicely with Darkness spell ability from the monk for easy access to advantage to your attacks with GWM.

Use Maul as weapon and take Great Weapon Master feat for the Power Attack and Cleave effects. You can alternatively take Polearm Master and go with spear and shield using your bonus action, but this competes with your bonus action teleport and a free hand for spellcasting. You can use Ki Fueled Strikes with a two handed longsword but it seems a lesser option than the heavy weapon and GWM feat.

Take Heavy Armor for maximal AC. This disables the abilities from the Monks martial arts abilities as well as some others. You lose bonus action unarmed strike, dex to hit with monk weapons, and improved martial arts die, and the unarmed movement increase, which granted is a lot. You can still use your ki point abilities, flurry of blows(with your natural weapons die), step of the wind, and patient defense. If I read it right although you don't gain bonus movement you can still run across water or up walls which can helpfully augment your teleport.

There is no problem with using stunning strike with a maul in heavy armor and is another way besides your teleport and Darkness spell to generate advantage. Pass Without Trace means you also benefit greatly and are able to stealth with your party.

You give up alot of what makes monks monks but I thought it was interesting to build it this way. You get minor illusion for some out of combat utility but I usually like to have more if I can.

Any thoughts?

Terrible, awful, no-good build. Like ofc if you enjoy it, its a good build, but this build isn't going to be effective at anything. Like, think about this for a minute. This monk is:

more MAD than a regular monk, requiring a stat spread of 16/13/12/8/16/8 unless you want stunning strike (an even more important class feature here) to not be behind a standard monk.
has at most +1 AC over a standard monk build at best, and has less AC at most levels.
is a level behind and thus has less ki and delayed access to features like extra attack and stunning strike
Is less accurate and deals only slightly more damage against targets with decent AC.
Is worse at exploration challenges, stealth
Is more vulnerable to dexterity-based saves
is built to 'tank' but will have worse HP than a cleric or a normal monk of the same level
Can do normal monk things like Patient Defense and stunning strike, but when out of ki performs like a trash fighter with no redeeming qualities except maybe the teleport if that's online.
Fights in melee but lacks the abilities most monks have that let them get into melee consistently.


Content creators like Treantmonk are heavily incentivized to make wild, exaggerated claims and this is a clear example of him doing so. See also how he wibbles and wobbles about whether a monk archer is really that good, even while an archer monk is objectively better than this salad in basically every possible way. Not to say that any of the claims he makes are wrong, just that you have to understand that this build is *very, very bad.* Compared with a conventional shadow monk, it's weaker defensively, its slightly stronger offensively against specifically low-ac targets, it sucks at the shadow monk's niche of stealth, and it lacks the high movement speed that would normally let it get into melee in the first place.

The only extent to which I'll acknowledge this build is that its useful as a case study for demonstrating how flexible ki is. Because so many monk features are tied to ki, you can select basically any ability that uses ki and build around that usage only, and have a functional build. But this isn't really the way to do it. Don't MC and just play a STR-based tortle monk. Or take the level of fighter but use it to grab archery style for a sick bow build. Or take the level of fighter and get blindfighting to combo with elven accuracy and the monk's ability to cast darkness. Or take a level of cleric instead and play a githzerai so you have slots to cast shield with on reaction. Or play a conventional monk but a goliath, so you can resist 3*(1d12+CON) hits per day and be way more durable than you have any right to be.


Shadow Monks can't see through their darkness. You would need to invest another feat into Devil's Sight invocation for this.

Blindfighting style. Which is probably the only thing I'll really say is good here, but IMO GWM is a bad way to exploit that. You're far better off finding a different way to exploit your accuracy.

[LudicSavant]

I generally recommend that folks don't take Mobile.

If you want to be a full kiting playstyle, just be an actual ranged Monk. They're good these days.

If you want to be a melee Monk, you want to get some extra payoff for getting into melee, and that doesn't mean giving up ASIs for feats that don't do much to help you kill, suppress, or absorb attacks from enemies. If you're not getting some extra payoff for getting into melee (such as threatening OAs, controlling space, protecting allies, etc), it often isn't worth it to actually get into melee. Spending an ASI (or race) on mobile means you're not taking an ASI (or race) that helps you get that extra battlefield presence.

You're already more mobile than most martials without this feat. You already have tools to help you disengage in a pinch -- not just Step of the Wind, but also Stunning Strike, and subclass abilities (e.g. you can't OA a person in Darkness, or if they're teleporting into shadows, or if they knocked you away and/or disabled your reactions on a flurry, etc. And some subclasses like Mercy and Long Death just plain grow into chonky bois after a bit).

If you're always feeling that your Monk constantly needs to run away, realize that taking Mobile might have increased that feeling relative to other builds because you're giving up features that would help you stand your ground better (or make it harder for your enemies to stand theirs, which is just as good).

What can you take instead of Mobile?
Well, here's a couple options.

There's Gunner (+1 Dex). You now basically have a greataxe as a Dex weapon you can swing 3 times (with KFA), that also can hit people from range. And you boosted the best stat in the game (Dex) and all attendant class features (almost all of them) while you were at it.

Want a different tack? There's also Fighting Initiate. If you wanna be a Monk that's fully unarmed from the get-go, a VHuman with the Unarmed Fighting Style is an option for Monks at tier 1. Being able to hit for 3d8+9 (more with subclass features, like a Mercy Monk's smite-like mechanic) is a serious threat at tier 1 -- outdamaging early PAM users and the like. Though you'll totally be a glass cannon in tier 1 if you go this route.

The style goes obsolete later, but Fighting Initiate conveniently allows you to swap which Fighting Style you have any time you gain an ASI, so it can just transform it into Blind-Fighting (helps any Monk take advantage of vision blockers, and is especially good for Shadow Monks) or Archery (good for ranged Monks) or whatever floats your boat.

Want some more ideas? Try Crusher, Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, Aberrant Dragonmark, Skill Expert (Perception), heck you could even just take Tough and pretend you have a d12 hit die instead of Mobile (though other stuff might be more valuable than Tough, even hp-wise).

There's also, you know, not being VHuman. There's tons of good races for Monks these days. Multiverse Bugbears are one of the best around. There's also stuff like Mountain Dwarf, Half-Drow, Half-Wood Elf, Half-Sun Elf, Shadar-Kai, Fairy, Aarakocra, Winged Tiefling, Eladrin, Astral Elf, Beasthide Shifter, Gem Dragonborn, Protector Aasimar, Simic Hybrid, Satyr, Ravenite Dragonborn, or Goliath.

[Jak]

I generally recommend that folks don't take Mobile.

If you want to be a full kiting playstyle, just be an actual ranged Monk. They're good these days.

If you want to be a melee Monk, you want to get some extra payoff for getting into melee, and that doesn't mean giving up ASIs for feats that don't do much to help you kill, suppress, or absorb attacks from enemies. If you're not getting some extra payoff for getting into melee (such as threatening OAs, controlling space, protecting allies, etc), it often isn't worth it to actually get into melee. Spending an ASI (or race) on mobile means you're not taking an ASI (or race) that helps you get that extra battlefield presence.

You're already more mobile than most martials without this feat. You already have tools to help you disengage in a pinch -- not just Step in the Wind, but also Stunning Strike, and subclass abilities (e.g. you can't OA a person in Darkness, or if they're teleporting into shadows, or if they knocked you away and/or disabled your reactions on a flurry, etc. And some subclasses like Mercy and Long Death just plain grow into chonky bois after a bit).

If you're always feeling that your Monk constantly needs to run away, realize that taking Mobile might have increased that feeling relative to other builds because you're giving up features that would help you stand your ground better (or make it harder for your enemies to stand theirs, which is just as good).

What can you take instead of Mobile?
Well, here's a couple options.

There's Gunner (+1 Dex). You now basically have a greataxe as a Dex weapon you can swing 3 times (with KFA), that also can hit people from range. And you boosted the best stat in the game (Dex) and all attendant class features (almost all of them) while you were at it.

Want a different tack? There's also Fighting Initiate. If you wanna be a Monk that's fully unarmed from the get-go, a VHuman with the Unarmed Fighting Style is an option for Monks at tier 1. Being able to hit for 3d8+9 (more with subclass features, like a Mercy Monk's smite-like mechanic) is a serious threat at tier 1 -- outdamaging early PAM users and the like. Though you'll totally be a glass cannon in tier 1 if you go this route.

The style goes obsolete later, but Fighting Initiate conveniently allows you to swap which Fighting Style you have any time you gain an ASI, so it can just transform it into Blind-Fighting (helps any Monk take advantage of vision blockers, and is especially good for Shadow Monks) or Archery (good for ranged Monks) or whatever floats your boat.

Want some more ideas? Try Crusher, Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, Aberrant Dragonmark, Skill Expert (Perception), heck you could even just take Tough and pretend you have a d12 hit die instead of Mobile (though other stuff might be more valuable than Tough, even hp-wise).

There's also, you know, not being VHuman. There's tons of good races for Monks these days. Multiverse Bugbears are one of the best around. There's also stuff like Mountain Dwarf, Half-Drow, Half-Wood Elf, Half-Sun Elf, Shadar-Kai, Fairy, Aarakocra, Winged Tiefling, Eladrin, Astral Elf, Beasthide Shifter, Gem Dragon, Protector Aasimar, Simic Hybrid, Satyr, Ravenite Dragonborn, or Goliath.

It's refreshing to see this. I feel mobile is overrated, yet that's the most recommended feat for monks.
I actually did take the tough feat with my soon to be dragon monk. Having those extra hit points feels really good as a monk; being able to play as a tank rather than a skirmisher.

I second the fighting initiate bit, especially if playing from level 1.

[animorte]

Try this experiment...
Okay so let's try this out...
If you'd like I can compare it to other feats, instead...
As such I rate Drunken Master red...
I generally recommend that folks don't take Mobile...
Well, here's a couple options...
How invested are you in the continued crtique of Monk subclasses?

I find your analyzation to be highly enlightening and rival to that of RPGBot, even though it may not be as unnecessarily in-depth.

[Asmotherion]

My experiance with Monks is that 5e Monks are too OP and I hope they get nerfed in One D&D.

As a Level 17 Monk (Radiant Soul non the less, AKA one of the worst Monk Subclasses), I experianced almost no challenge beating a CR30 Monster (A Heavily Homebrewed version of Tiamat with some form of advanced regeneration) in less than 7 turns, taking minimal damage in return. We were a party of 4 for referance.

[stoutstien]

It's refreshing to see this. I feel mobile is overrated, yet that's the most recommended feat for monks.
I actually did take the tough feat with my soon to be dragon monk. Having those extra hit points feels really good as a monk; being able to play as a tank rather than a skirmisher.

I second the fighting initiate bit, especially if playing from level 1.

It's not so much that Mobile is overrated it's just overrated on the monk. Classes that don't have the built in speed and secondary ways to bypass DT it's always tempting. It's one of the melee battle master's big hurdles with no initiate way to close gaps.

[Amnestic]

My experiance with Monks is that 5e Monks are too OP and I hope they get nerfed in One D&D.

As a Level 17 Monk (Radiant Soul non the less, AKA one of the worst Monk Subclasses), I experianced almost no challenge beating a CR30 Monster (A Heavily Homebrewed version of Tiamat with some form of advanced regeneration) in less than 7 turns, taking minimal damage in return. We were a party of 4 for referance.

Could you give more details as to party setup/encounter details?

[Sorinth]

While it's true that there are plenty of good options besides Mobile, I think it gets recommended so much because people have an idea of how they want their Monk to operate in combat but if they don't take Mobile they end up disappointed with the Monk class as a whole. So yeah there are plenty of other good options out there, and Monks are by no means forced to play that specific style, but if you do want to play that melee skirmisher style then Mobile is a better option then relying on the other features to disengage freely and so you'll probably have more fun with it then a more optimized choice that changes how you want to actually play.

[animorte]

My experiance with Monks is that 5e Monks are too OP and I hope they get nerfed in One D&D.

I already know the reasons for this. I actually think Monks are easily the most balanced class in the game. They have some clear weaknesses, but they're the most survivable class. They have a ton of tricks available that allow them to overcome a variety of circumstances without much assistance. They can contribute in every pillar, but they don't make anybody else feel bad about any area of the game (except sometimes supreme movement capabilities). Even with limited Ki, they are still useful. Even without the need of resources, they continue to be consistent.

Specifically to your Sun Soul Monk, that subclass doesn't particularly have additional features or make one better at monk-ing (which is why I think it's frowned upon), but it allows a Monk to be more effective at greater range (one of their few weaknesses) while not losing any of the awesome base class shenanigans.

[LudicSavant]

It's refreshing to see this. I feel mobile is overrated, yet that's the most recommended feat for monks.
I actually did take the tough feat with my soon to be dragon monk. Having those extra hit points feels really good as a monk; being able to play as a tank rather than a skirmisher.

I second the fighting initiate bit, especially if playing from level 1.

I was curious how some folks got the idea that Mobile is some 'default choice' for Monks, so I tried googling "Monk guide 5e" and see what popped up. Here's what I found.

Mobile is rated a red for Monks.

It's Wizards of the Coast.

It's rated a 4/5 feat by this guide. Meanwhile, Gunner is rated 1/5, they can't seem to conceive of any reason why a Monk would use this. It's rated the same as Linguist, Artificer Initiate, and armor-wearing feats. :smallconfused:

Mobile is rated red for Monks.

Mobile is rated blue. Like the third result, it also seems to COMPLETELY sleep on other feats, rating Gunner "pretty subpar" and saying that even Kensei are "pretty melee-focused." :smallconfused:

This guide doesn't list all feats in the game, only feats they consider worth recommending for a Monk. Mobile is not on the list.

Make of that what you will. Shrug.

[MrStabby]

It's not so much that Mobile is overrated it's just overrated on the monk. Classes that don't have the built in speed and secondary ways to bypass DT it's always tempting. It's one of the melee battle master's big hurdles with no initiate way to close gaps.

So some years ago, I remember a debate about whether mobile was good on the monk or not. It seemed a pretty even split.

For what it's worth, my view was that it just wasn't worth it - a matter of diminishing returns. Between less likely to fall prone, ability to stun enemies, ability to disengage as a bonus action and an already higher speed it seemed like you were always getting reduced benefits from the feats.

This was all before Xanathars.

Since then we have a lot more options for feats - and some really good ones. Some strong racial feats (on good monk races), some great utility feats, and even some pretty decent combat feats (I would be tempted to take crusher over mobile for example).

Mobile on a fighter, yeah. A good choice (less mad and can afford more feats fewer class abilities that overlap)

[Pooky the Imp]

@LudicSavant Any chance of you reviewing/discussing the other Monk subclasses?

[LudicSavant]

@LudicSavant Any chance of you reviewing/discussing the other Monk subclasses?

Sure. Which one?

[Witty Username]

Content creators like Treantmonk are heavily incentivized to make wild, exaggerated claims and this is a clear example of him doing so. See also how he wibbles and wobbles about whether a monk archer is really that good, even while an archer monk is objectively better than this salad in basically every possible way. Not to say that any of the claims he makes are wrong, just that you have to understand that this build is *very, very bad.* Compared with a conventional shadow monk, it's weaker defensively, its slightly stronger offensively against specifically low-ac targets, it sucks at the shadow monk's niche of stealth, and it lacks the high movement speed that would normally let it get into melee in the first place.


I want to add a note for clarity on this one, as Treantmonk opinions are involved. The video describing heavy armor monk included that it is a bad build that doesn't function as well as a normal monk, doesn't solve the intended problems, an sacrifices alot of the reasons to play a monk over other classes.
Treentmonk talked about it, he didn't say it was anything beyond a bad idea.

--
As for my personal thoughts, if you want to play a monk, play a monk not a weird fighter with a weak version of monk stuff and not much else.I hear gun monk is fun and different, try that one first.

@Ludic
Request for Open Hand monk, if your willing?

[animorte]

@LudicSavant Any chance of you reviewing/discussing the other Monk subclasses?

Sure. Which one?
Yeah, I was alluding to this earlier myself, as well:

How invested are you in the continued crtique of Monk subclasses?

I find your analyzation to be highly enlightening and rival to that of RPGBot, even though it may not be as unnecessarily in-depth.

[Amechra]

Ludic, as someone who played a Drunken Monk from 5th to 14th, I have to question your assessment of Drunken Master a little.

You compared Drunken Technique to Open Hand Technique — I don't think that that's a good comparison to make (or, at least, I think you dismissed Drunken Technique a little too readily).

Drunken Technique has three major advantages over Open Hand Technique:


Your attacks don't have to hit in order for it to do anything (Open Hand Technique's cool tricks are all attack riders).
It works against any number of creatures (Open Hand Technique affects at most two creatures).
It gives you a speed boost (Open Hand Technique does not give you a speed boost).


The role of the two abilities are very different. Open Hand Technique is all about battlefield control, while Drunken Technique is all about access — not only could I use it to get out of melee when I wanted to, but I could also use it to get into melee with a single high-priority target regardless of how cluttered the battlefield was.

Now, the rest of the subclass is absolute garbage. It's pretty obvious that the intent was that you were supposed to be some kind of "AoE" Monk — Drunken Technique lets you get into the middle of clumps of enemies, Redirect Attack makes being surrounded less suicidal, and Intoxicated Sway punishes mooks for ganging up on you. Which is cool and all, but it doesn't actually work in practice — clusters of enemies already have a far better answer (in the form of stuff like Fireball), and your actual features are just short of actually being worth using.

I think it'd actually work pretty well if it was, like...


3rd: Bonus Proficiencies + Tipsy Sway (Leap to your Feet) + Drunken Technique
6th: Tipsy Sway (Redirect Attack) + Intoxicated Sway (three attacks).
11th: Drunkard's Luck (costing 1 ki instead of 2 ki) + Intoxicated Sway (four attacks).
17th: Intoxicated Sway (five attacks) + [INSERT SOMETHING COOL].

[LudicSavant]

Ludic, as someone who played a Drunken Monk from 5th to 14th, I have to question your assessment of Drunken Master a little.

You compared Drunken Technique to Open Hand Technique — I don't think that that's a good comparison to make (or, at least, I think you dismissed Drunken Technique a little too readily).

Drunken Technique has three major advantages over Open Hand Technique:


Your attacks don't have to hit in order for it to do anything (Open Hand Technique's cool tricks are all attack riders).
It works against any number of creatures (Open Hand Technique affects at most two creatures).
It gives you a speed boost (Open Hand Technique does not give you a speed boost).


The role of the two abilities are very different. Open Hand Technique is all about battlefield control, while Drunken Technique is all about access — not only could I use it to get out of melee when I wanted to, but I could also use it to get into melee with a single high-priority target regardless of how cluttered the battlefield was.

Now, the rest of the subclass is absolute garbage. It's pretty obvious that the intent was that you were supposed to be some kind of "AoE" Monk — Drunken Technique lets you get into the middle of clumps of enemies, Redirect Attack makes being surrounded less suicidal, and Intoxicated Sway punishes mooks for ganging up on you. Which is cool and all, but it doesn't actually work in practice — clusters of enemies already have a far better answer (in the form of stuff like Fireball), and your actual features are just short of actually being worth using.

I think it'd actually work pretty well if it was, like...

Thanks for the feedback!

I considered these bullet points prior to giving my assessment.

As you say, it can avoid OAs a little bit better than the Open Hand ability, because it doesn't actually require you to hit anyone. However, that doesn't change what I said -- that I would much rather have the Open Hand ability. The couple of extra situations where it'd let me get access somewhere (and do less on arrival than any Monk that actually had offensive bonuses in their subclass) are, in my mind, far outweighed by the benefits of being an Open Hand Monk using the Billiards or Shoryuken combos left, right, and center.

Perhaps what I should have clarified is why I would want the Open Hand ability more. Ultimately, the ability to turn off OAs in certain situations is just a side bennie of the Open Hand technique, not the main attraction. Which is why when it is the main (really only) attraction, I would expect it to be waaaay better, and it just... isn't.

Drunken Technique isn't even all that great at creating access to that key backline foe, simply because of order of operations. You have to Attack, then flurry of blows to get the benefit of the Disengage -- you don't even get your full barrage against your priority target! This is a marginal gain at best over a base Monk simply using Step of the Wind and hitting the priority foe with main weapon attacks.

Edit
One option for the Drunken Master is to just go full ranged attack kiting mode. You can drop prone with Tipsy Sway to give ranged attackers disadvantage against you, and if anyone actually dashes to get into range of you you can just nope out of there. That, combined with stuff like Evasion and Deflect Missiles, can make you tough to deal with. It's a selfish, turtley defense, but one which a fair number of monsters can't really deal with. The issue would be that if your allies aren't similarly nopey, they are just gonna get hit instead.

[Amechra]

Drunken Technique isn't even all that great at creating access to that key backline foe, simply because of order of operations. You have to Attack, then flurry of blows to get the benefit of the Disengage -- you don't even get your full barrage against your priority target! This is a marginal gain at best over a base Monk simply using Step of the Wind and hitting the priority foe with main weapon attacks.

in retrospect, it occurs to me that my group wasn't running the Monk correctly back in late 2017/early 2018 — we read Step of the Wind as being "dash AND disengage" instead of "dash OR disengage" (we figured out that we were doing it wrong mid-campaign, and decided to keep doing it that way), and apparently also got the timing wrong for Flurry of Blows (I have a distinct memory of going "I Attack and Flurry", running across the room, then using all four attacks on a boss at least once). So maybe my input vis-a-vis how it plays isn't the best. :smalltongue:

That said... what are your opinions on Monks and the (optional) rules for disarming enemies? I seem to recall feeling really powerful vs. a bunch of armed enemies, but now I'm unsure if that's something that a normal, by-the-book monk would actually be good at.

EDIT: By the way, I highly suggest giving Monks a go using my old group's inadvertent house rules. The BIRB is probably one of my favorite 5e characters I've played.

[Unoriginal]

and apparently also got the timing wrong for Flurry of Blows (I have a distinct memory of going "I Attack and Flurry", running across the room, then using all four attacks on a boss at least once)

That timing isn't wrong, though. I can be not optimal to commit to Flurry before seeing tze result of the Attack Action, but nothing is stopping the player from doing so.

[Schwann145]

Re: Mobile
I feel like, if your plan is to play the Monk as advertised on it's face (the skirmisher, jumping into and out of the melee every turn), then Mobile is worth it's weight in gold. Step of the Wind costing Ki is just way too expensive if you're planning on that much disengaging (the fact that it costs Ki at all is... let's just say unreasonable).
If you plan to play a Monk who will stick around in the melee, or doesn't get into the melee at all, then it's a straight-up trash pick and you'd be better with almost anything else.

[Persolus]

I'm currently playing a monk in a Tomb of Annihilation game.

Specifically, I'm playing Indiana Jones the Dwarf.

It turns out that a Kensei monk with a whip and a hand crossbow fits pretty close with what Indy gets up to! Being able to Stunning Strike at range is amazing, and I picked up the Slasher feat to guarantee a shut-down of an annoying enemy.

Slow Fall and Reflect Missile are both tailor-made for the flavour of catching onto things with a whip, and thanks to martial arts die, the whip itself is pretty darn effective (plus thanks to the Artificier in the party, +1 makes it even better).

Thanks to a Ring of Jumping, with a ki point I can jump over 60 feet, amazing for avoiding death traps.

And since there are lots of tall ruins, the ideal tactic of "tackle them to the ground" is amazing, since I barely take any damage, if any.

[Pooky the Imp]

Sure. Which one?

I'd be most interested in Astral Self and Dragon.

[animewatcha]

And since there are lots of tall ruins, the ideal tactic of "tackle them to the ground" is amazing, since I barely take any damage, if any.

As I recently found out rules for falling damage. High enough monk could run up the wall and 'fall' on the enemy. Forcing a dex save or be knocked prone and take fall damage equal to half the original fall damage (monk would normally take the other half, but that gets canceled by reaction via safe fall).

[BoutsofInsanity]

As I recently found out rules for falling damage. High enough monk could run up the wall and 'fall' on the enemy. Forcing a dex save or be knocked prone and take fall damage equal to half the original fall damage (monk would normally take the other half, but that gets canceled by reaction via safe fall).

Don't forget about the ultra power move.

Do the old power bomb orbit drop.

Once you have the ability to run up walls it gets pretty nasty. The only downside is you more than likely want at least a 14 in your strength score and proficiency in athletics.

BUT.

On the monks turn take the attack action and go for a grapple. Once the target is grabbed leaving you one attack (Extra attack) and Flurry run up the wall dragging the enemy with you and go as far as you can before diving off the top. Slam the enemy into the ground causing them to take fall damage while you burn your reaction to take no damage. The target for taking damage while falling is now prone. Use your remaining extra attack and bonus action to flurry of blows for three more attacks with advantage.

[LudicSavant]

It's refreshing to see this.

@LudicSavant Any chance of you reviewing/discussing the other Monk subclasses?

How invested are you in the continued crtique of Monk subclasses?

I find your analyzation to be highly enlightening

@Ludic
Request for Open Hand monk, if you're willing?


I'd be most interested in Astral Self and Dragon.

The middle children of the Monk subclasses, eh?

My impression of Ascendant Dragon is that it really suffers from backloading. And nerfs.

What do I mean by that? I mean its features only really take off at level 11+. If I was only rating it based on tier 1 and 2, I might have rated it Red. And I’m not saying that just because of Aspect of the Wyrm, but because of the way their lower level features scale, too. That breath weapon jumps from 2d6 (7) to 3d8 (13.5) at 11 – in other words, it basically doubles in power from where it was at 10, and in the process actually becomes a meaningful upgrade over the Attack it replaces. And both their 3 and 6 features get better once they have more uses from a higher proficiency.

By contrast, at lower levels they don’t have a whole ton going over base Monk. A 2d4 breath weapon is so little damage it’s barely worth replacing the attack -- and as always, the real competition isn't "base Monk attack" it's "the schtick of a different Monk subclass." The Cha check ribbon isn’t near enough to turn you into a party face anytime soon. Even the early access to bypassing non magical weapon resistance only applies to your unarmed attacks, which only do 1d4 at this level (while a Versatile weapon might be doing 1d8 or 1d10). If you’re going from 1d8+ to 1d4, it’s like you’re suffering from partial Resistance on that hit anyways! Oof.

If you’re going to play at tier 1 and 2, you’re probably better off skipping this subclass. If you're playing 3 and 4, it's got some stuff going for it. I'd take it over the other AoE Monks, at the very least (though that bar was on the floor).

Level 3:
Tier 1 is rough for an Ascendant Dragon. You get 3 abilities and none of them are good (yet).

A 2d4 (save for half) Wis-based AoE is… not great. It's just "singe a goblin's eyebrows" damage. In many cases, you’ll simply be better off making the weapon attack it would have replaced (and it does need to replace one of your weapon attacks, not your unarmed bonus action hits). When using the proficiency charges, it doesn’t even trigger Ki-Fueled Attacks to swap your Martial Arts attack for a weapon attack. The ability will become better later, but for now the benefits are definitely very minor.

Draconic Strike is mostly an early-access version of the Monk’s level 6 ability… but it only works on your unarmed attacks, which are only a d4 right now (while your weapon attacks should be a d8 or more). This means that even if you meet an early enemy with non magical weapon resistance, this is only slightly helping your damage. Mostly on your bonus action attacks. Once in several blue moons, it might allow you to target an elemental vulnerability, but those are quite rare, even if you’re selecting from all 5 of the damage types. Like, “25 out of 1427 monsters I checked” rare.

And last, there’s the ability to reroll Cha(Intimidate) or Cha(Persuasion) checks. While this isn’t wasted on a failure, it also isn’t nearly enough to actually make you a good party face. It’s a tiny ribbon at best. And a rather janky one, since it can’t even work on non-binary Intimidate or Persuasion checks.

Level 6:
This is less flight and more an awkward floaty superjump where you fall (well, Slow Fall) at the end of the turn. And frustratingly, you can only use it when using Step of the Wind, which dramatically lowers the number of situations I'd actually want to use it.

Still, a flight option is better than no flight option, I guess.

Level 11:
The breath weapon jumps to 3d8 (nearly doubling in strength from level 10) and is now a meaningful improvement over the attack it replaces. Your proficiency has also scaled so that you have a fair number of uses of your level 3 and 6 features.

And you get Aspect of the Wyrm, giving you a decent bonus action support ability. It has two versions, both of which are situationally useful.

First, the Resistance aura. Now, this can be awesome in certain monster matchups, but it is definitely situational. It has to be pre-cast, and it's mono-elemental, and the radius is small. If your enemy can change types, or target someone outside the aura, they will. If you don't know what type you need ahead of time, you'll miss the opportunity. And so forth.

Second, the fear. It's only single target, and it's competing with your other single target bonus action offensive options, and unless you've maxxed your Wis first your save DC is a bit behind par for CC. Still, it's a bonus action for a pretty significant debuff, and it can potentially last multiple turns, and it's repeatable -- you can use the bonus action on a new creature every turn (or try to re-apply it if they save).

Level 17:
Another backloaded bump. You get 3 new abilities and they’re all helpful, if late.

You now just have real Blindsight, like, all of the time, for free. This really allows you to capitalize on vision blockers (or counter those used by the enemy – as well as stuff like invisibility, illusions, etc).

Augment Breath lets you spend 1 ki to boost your breath to 4d10. That’s just 6 damage short of the average of a Fireball – a big improvement over the single attack it replaces, and the increased ki cost is affordable at this level.

Aspect of the Wyrm gets buffed, at no extra ki cost. It now does 3d10 AoE damage in a wide, friendly-fire-free area -- though unfortunately, it is save negates rather than save for half (why do they keep doing this to AoE Monks? First they did it to the Sun Soul (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25609560&postcount=59), now the Ascendant Dragon too? Ugh). Combined with your Breath of the Dragon, it can let you put out a 7d10 AoE + either fear or resistance + an attack.

It’s just a shame that this playstyle wasn’t more… evenly distributed throughout the class, instead of, you know, level 17.

____

So, what can we do with the subclass? Well, being a ranged Monk can help out a bit -- you can more easily position for your AoE blasts and aura, you can just stand out of range of Frightened foes who can't approach you, and you can do stuff like Step of the Wind Fly up to a sniper perch if you get tired of enemies being close to you.

You can also get extra breath weapon AoEs via Haste or Action Surge (from a Fighter dip). Though going that route when you're already at 11+ can mean delaying things like Diamond Soul or your level 17 feature, definitely a tradeoff you'd have to consider. I've seen some people go Fizban's Dragonborn and really go all in on AoEs, but... this further exacerbates their MADness by making one of their breath weapons Con-based.

Ultimately, it's not going to be enough to actually make you the party's blaster, it's just going to add a bit of versatility to the base Monk kit.

[Witty Username]

Looks like the Astral Self monk has alot of similar problems to the Dragon ascendant:
-low damage AoEs
-benefits that only apply to unarmed strikes
-situational abilities that are low impact that don't make up for standard monk problems.

With the added issue that the 17th level feature while a similar power bump, costs a significant amount of ki, limiting its usefulness.

[Amechra]

Looks like the Astral Self monk has alot of similar problems to the Dragon ascendant:
-low damage AoEs
-benefits that only apply to unarmed strikes
-situational abilities that are low impact that don't make up for standard monk problems.

With the added issue that the 17th level feature while a similar power bump, costs a significant amount of ki, limiting its usefulness.

Astral Self is... interesting.

The AoE isn't actually an AoE — it's basically an "apology" for the fact that you couldn't use Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows on the turn when you use it.

The main benefit that you get from it is that it lets you play a Monk that's good at grappling/shoving without screwing up your ability scores too badly, and that your Stunning Strike DC is going to be higher than normal in T2 (since you can pump up Wisdom instead of Dexterity).

[Thunderous Mojo]

Draconic Strike is mostly an early-access version of the Monk’s level 6 ability… but it only works on your unarmed attacks, which are only a d4 right now (while your weapon attacks should be a d8 or more).

While this is true, an Ascendant Monk could plausibly start a fire, by spinning their finger on a dry piece of wood. An Ascendant monk could punch out a lock with an acid fist.

Objects, by RAW, don’t have many hit points, and elemental attacks might be able to bypass a Damage Threshold, given a willing DM.

[stoutstien]

Yeah ascendant dragon is conceptually and mechanically fine as a complete package it's just the scaling is wonky and once again they fall in the traps of giving non primary spellcasters extra action juggling requirements to perform fairly minor feats.

Interesting enough though it is fairly popular among the players that are looking for that mystic fighter with a little bit of elemental flair. It's easy to use and Ki conservative. I can't be upset when they get something thematically correct even it irks me how well they did with the mercy Monk right beforehand.

[Amechra]

The thing that frustrates me about the Ascendant Dragon are the free charges. Like, I get that that's what they were testing out with that subclass, but the end result is that the actual abilities feel wildly overpriced once you burn through your uses, and it means that you have extra stuff to track.

That said, I do think that Breath of the Dragon is a little better than Ludic's analysis initially makes it look. It's a decent-sized AoE, and while the damage is initially goblin-ticklingly low, you generally aren't going to be using it unless you're hitting multiple enemies. So at least that's something.

[Burley]

My experience with 5e Monks was the monk in our party having really long turns and being out damaged by the cleric.

[LudicSavant]

@LudicSavant Any chance of you reviewing/discussing the other Monk subclasses?

@Ludic
Request for Open Hand monk, if you're willing?

Open Hand has a decent level 3 feature. The problem is... well, you'd better like it, because you're not getting a whole lot else until level 17!

Open Hand Technique is basically the feature that tries to carry the whole subclass on its back. It's all about improving your Flurry of Blows, and as such you'll want to be using that feature a lot (as opposed to just, say, KFA). Part of the danger of this is mitigated, since you'll be frequently CCing enemies (or turning off their Reactions) when you do so, and because you'll get Wholeness of Body later.

It expands the number of saves you can throw at someone during a turn, as well as the kinds of saving throws you can target -- you'll be able to go after Dex, Str, and Con (from Stunning Strike). It's also worth remembering that if a foe is Stunned, then they automatically fail Dex/Str saves, so you can just sort of go to town on them.

Anyways, all that said, let's get to the three options. Making good use of these will largely determine how useful you are as an Open Hand Monk.

1) You can turn off an enemy's Reactions with no save. This is good for rotating out the frontliner as needed by turning off OAs -- and I don't just mean you! Unlike those selfish drunken wrecks masters, you get to disengage other people on the team, rather than just yourself. In addition to switching off OAs, this can turn off key reactions of certain monsters, as well as help your party win Counterspell wars.

2) You can knock an enemy prone, targeting their Dexterity save. Unlike regular shoves (as well as the Battle Master's Tripping Attack), this doesn't care about the enemy's size, which is nice. The timing is a bit unfortunate -- since Flurry of Blows has to be used "immediately after" the Attack action, you can't start your turn with this. Even so, it can be helpful for generating Advantage for Team PCs' attacks, and halving a foe's movement speed.

Oh yeah, don't forget that prone knocks winged fliers out of the sky, too.

3) The third (and perhaps most important) is that it can target an enemy's Strength save, and knock them back a good 15 feet. I like this, for a few reasons. One is that it lets you play the "Billiards Monk" who bounces people in and out of allied hazards and CC (be it Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Spirit Guardians, Cloud of Daggers, Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, Web, Spike Growth, you name it). Such knockback combos can really shred things with the right party composition. Two is that you can combine it with Crusher and start Shoryukening people diagonally into the air (you basically apply Crusher first, send them up, then knock them 15 feet away), moving them and making them take extra damage and fall prone. Three is that unlike a lot of knockback effects, it doesn't care about the enemy's size (though Crusher still does). So yeah, you can potentially send an enemy 15-30 feet away, prone, through a hazard, twice. If you're a Battle Master-dipping Open Hand Monk, you can even throw Pushing Attack on top of it and just send people flying. Your mobility will also help you to angle your knockbacks better.

It's no Repelling Blast (which offers no save and is thus significantly more reliable), but it's the next best thing. In the right party composition, this can potentially generate a lot of value, especially since (after a while) you'll basically just be able to afford to flurry all day every day, bringing 2 Open Hand Technique effects every time.

This brings a persistent CC threat on top of your regular damage output, as well as the ability to help control who the melee monsters get to engage with so that they struggle to focus fire (again, not just because you can disengage, but the party too).

Wholeness of Body is a 1/day heal. It's 60% of a full Lay on Hands burst, and it somewhat offsets the Monk's lack of hit points, and it's just bursty enough that, in an emergency, you might pop back that 36-41% of your base HP (depending on your Con score) and still have room to Step of the Wind to hold out until your party kills the enemies trying to focus you down.

On the other hand, you'll mostly just be using it out of combat (since it takes an Action), and it's prone to losing value to over-healing (because it's all wrapped up in one use). Also, it scales directly off of Monk level, so it's not very multiclassing-friendly.

Tranquility, on the other hand, has no redeeming value. Like seriously, what the heck is this? It's going to turn off the first round you attack, and attacking is pretty much your entire job in combat. It's doing little beyong providing slight ambush resistance to the very first encounter of the day.

This feature is basically a dead level weighing the class down.

Quivering Palm, at least, is a decent feature. It's a Con save or die for 3 ki. Importantly, it also does 10d10 (55) guaranteed damage, meaning that it's often worth the action even if you think it's going to fail. After all, 55 DPR is comparable to the whole round of a Reckless, Raging GWM/PAM Zealot against AC 20.

And of course, 55 is only your DPR if the enemy has a 100% chance of saving (like a Legendary Resistance). If they don't, there's a chance it will just kill them outright. Yes, this chance is probably low, but again, you didn't waste the action if you fail, it still gets that 55 damage.

So for example, if a Pit Fiend has 250 hp remaining when you activate Quivering Palm, and you have a DC19 save vs their whopping +13 Con, it's still ~104 DPR average.

And since it's doing that damage with just your Action, you still have your bonus action free to do stuff like, say, protect yourself with Step of the Wind.

It's important to note that any unarmed strike can set this up, including off-turn ones and the like. Though under "normal" circumstances it'll be a two-round affair, it's also technically possible to set this up and trigger it multiple times per round (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/142934/is-this-combination-of-quivering-palm-and-haste-raw), if you really want to.

It can also be held over someone's head to reliably break concentration, or blackmail them for their lives a la Geas, or the like. So that's fun.

___

Oh, if only Open Hand had better level 6 and 11 features... especially 11...

Anyways, if you want to play an Open Hand Monk, my suggestion is to toss them in a party that makes good use of hazards and CC, and start playing billiards.

[Witty Username]

The thing that frustrates me about the Ascendant Dragon are the free charges. Like, I get that that's what they were testing out with that subclass, but the end result is that the actual abilities feel wildly overpriced once you burn through your uses, and it means that you have extra stuff to track.
At least for me, weirdly overpriced is standard operation for a monk at least.

Maybe it is just a perception thing, but step of the wind, patient defense and flurry of blows essentially mean spending ki every turn, then stunning strike, ki focused aim, and the redirect on deflect arrows all as ways to cost ki on top of that.
With that even fairly reasonable costs in principle like shadow monk dark arts look painful.

[Amnestic]

With that even fairly reasonable costs in principle like shadow monk dark arts look painful.

Shadow monk arts aren't exactly common combat tools like ascendant dragon are.

Darkvision is essentially "free", since its long duration means you can start the day by casting it on whoever needs it in the party and then short resting your ki back.

Pass without trace is decent duration, and a non-combat tool rather than something you're blowing on enemies.

Not being able to see through your own darkness means you either need to build for it (fighting style, invocation) or relegate it to 'area' tool rather than something you cast regularly - it's an anti-spellcaster thing (to hit spells that need sight) or an infiltration tool. Ditto for Silence. They both can be used in combat, but their application is definitely more niche than other subclass things (eg. dragon breath) so it's more likely you'll save them for out of combat stuff where there's a (greater) chance to rest up.

[Schwann145]

So for example, if a Pit Fiend has 250 hp remaining when you activate Quivering Palm, and you have a DC19 save vs their whopping +13 Con, it's still ~104 DPR average.

How can you average more damage than you can actualize?
Are you including the possibility of outright death in the DPR? If so, why? The chance of insta-kill will never increase the damage of a non-insta-kill. The value is binary.

[Amechra]

At least for me, weirdly overpriced is standard operation for a monk at least.

Part of that is because Monks are probably the class that best rewards resource management... and the fact that they scale from having next-to-no ki to having tons of ki. Like, when I calculate the "resourceless" damage for a high-level Monk, I just assume that they're using Flurry of Blows. Sure, it technically costs 1 ki, but by that point you've got 11+ ki per short rest, and you're unlikely to run out by the time you get a short rest.

Shadow Monks can get away with their Shadow Arts costing 2 ki each because they're all situational, really strong when they're actually useful, fill niches that the Monk doesn't normally fill, and because the rest of their subclass is free. In early levels, using a single Shadow Art as part of a short rest feels like you did something big, so the fact that it eats up your Flurry Juice doesn't hurt that much. At higher levels, you're going to be casting 1-2 Shadow Arts per fight, tops, so you aren't going to feel the resource pinch.

Contrast the Ascendant Dragon, and how expensive everything is once you run out of your limited uses. If they didn't get the free uses, better costs would probably be:


Breath of the Dragon - 1ki per use.
Wings Unfurled - free upgrade to Step of the Wind.
Aspect of the Wyrm - 2ki per use.
Ascendant Aspect - +2ki for the breath weapon upgrade, +1ki for the Aspect of the Wyrm upgrade.

[Ionathus]

What are your experiences playing as or with someone playing a Monk? Was it a fun experience? Why/why not? Finally what was the build of the Monk ( race, subclass, stats rolled, feats, multiclass, etc.) I ask because I worry about the MAD of the class, especially regarding their AC and would like to hear if it was an issue with anyone's play experience or not.

I played a Drunken Master monk from lvls 1-6 and I enjoyed myself okay. I think most of my complaints trace back to the table I was playing at -- but I got almost no use out of my subclass features. The only things we ever fought were small groups of big nasty enemies (giants mostly) so I never really had any reason to duck and weave and reposition. And Stunning Strike was pretty unimpressive against those big chunky CON scores.

Like, seriously. This was a published module (SKT) and I don't know if he modified the encounters at all but we fought literally 1 spellcaster the entire time. And about a billion hill giants.

[LudicSavant]

How can you average more damage than you can actualize?
Are you including the possibility of outright death in the DPR? If so, why? The chance of insta-kill will never increase the damage of a non-insta-kill. The value is binary.

In this case, there's a 25% chance that the enemy's HP is reduced by 250, and a 75% chance it's reduced by 10d10 (55).

More generally, the average damage dealt by the Action to trigger Quivering Palm is (chance enemy fails save) * (enemy's current HP) + (chance enemy succeeds save) * (55).

[strangebloke]

It's refreshing to see this. I feel mobile is overrated, yet that's the most recommended feat for monks.
A lot of the problem is that a lot of formative guides early in the game's history said that monks were best as "hit and run" characters, or "skirmish" characters. And its true that there are some situations where you can play in that way. But ultimately the problem with this strategy is that it has the worst of both worlds when compared with melee and range, while also having mediocre damage. You need way more movement than a normal melee build to pull of 'skirmishing' properly, and a baseline monk only has step of the wind for OA mitigation, meaning that your damage and ki reserves are going to PLUMMET if you attempt to play in such a way. Meanwhile, you don't get to take advantage of being in melee. You aren't controlling space or getting OAs or blocking a chokepoint.

So if you start with the assumption that monks are 'skirmishers' the 'solution' is mobile. But the whole notion is silly to begin with. Sure, there are situations where this strategy was valid, but as with melee rogues, its not

I want to add a note for clarity on this one, as Treantmonk opinions are involved. The video describing heavy armor monk included that it is a bad build that doesn't function as well as a normal monk, doesn't solve the intended problems, an sacrifices alot of the reasons to play a monk over other classes.
Treentmonk talked about it, he didn't say it was anything beyond a bad idea.
Well fair, I suppose I should be less biased.

The middle children of the Monk subclasses, eh?

My impression of Ascendant Dragon is that it really suffers from backloading. And nerfs.
Overall it really feels like a class that was balanced around prior existing material rather than the rest of the game. Dragon monk isn't out of line with open hand or a more 'normal' style of shadow monk or kensei, but therein lies the problem. It's painfully in line with a class chassis that really needs to be stronger.

Open Hand has a decent level 3 feature. The problem is... well, you'd better like it, because you're not getting a whole lot else until level 17!

This was my experience as well. Huge mileage out of the level 3 feature, especially with being able to target multiple saves. I'd be interested in trying a fizban's metallic dragonborn as an open hand monk with the ability to target basically any save.

Everything after level 3 was basically forgotten. Healing was occasionally relevant, but as healing options go its annoyingly limited.

Part of that is because Monks are probably the class that best rewards resource management... and the fact that they scale from having next-to-no ki to having tons of ki. Like, when I calculate the "resourceless" damage for a high-level Monk, I just assume that they're using Flurry of Blows. Sure, it technically costs 1 ki, but by that point you've got 11+ ki per short rest, and you're unlikely to run out by the time you get a short rest.

Shadow Monks can get away with their Shadow Arts costing 2 ki each because they're all situational, really strong when they're actually useful, fill niches that the Monk doesn't normally fill, and because the rest of their subclass is free. In early levels, using a single Shadow Art as part of a short rest feels like you did something big, so the fact that it eats up your Flurry Juice doesn't hurt that much. At higher levels, you're going to be casting 1-2 Shadow Arts per fight, tops, so you aren't going to feel the resource pinch.

Contrast the Ascendant Dragon, and how expensive everything is once you run out of your limited uses. If they didn't get the free uses, better costs would probably be:
Yeah the free uses are intensely annoying to me, because every example of a free use is just another resource to track, and it also undercuts the monk's main appeal for me, which is its flexibility. It is worth pointing out that KFA makes most ki usages that don't use action economy very very good if you have some ability to add damage to your attacks (sharpshooter, magic weapon).

Overall I'm not a fan of 'resourceless' baselines because it creates perverse optimization incentives. Druids suck at a resourceless baseline, but when was the last time you saw a druid who didn't have LOADS of resources to burn. Monks at high levels are similar. Using ki every turn should be expected.

[Witty Username]

Yeah, I don't mind the idea of some long rest uses for features, but the dragon monk combines them with low impact features and the ki cost feels like a bit of an afterthought with ki spent for effect rendered.

[MrStabby]

I kind of like the free uses on abilities. I found that monks often looked cool, with lots of abilities, but in practice most Ki was just used on a small number of things. Giving some free uses for every ability jus helps the characer feel like they actually do these things, rather than it just being an unused option because stunning strike is a better use of Ki, or whatever.

I do get that the extra bookkeeping is a pain, but having played clases like the Paladin with half a dozen different resources to track it isn't really the worst thing ever.

[Amnestic]

I do get that the extra bookkeeping is a pain, but having played clases like the Paladin with half a dozen different resources to track it isn't really the worst thing ever.

Yeah, while it might be more than usual for a monk, it still strikes me as being less than your average spellcaster and their spell slots.

Some subclasses being more complex or having more book-keeping than others isn't a deal breaker (otherwise battlemaster wouldn't ever have gotten off the ground vs champion!)

[stoutstien]

I kind of like the free uses on abilities. I found that monks often looked cool, with lots of abilities, but in practice most Ki was just used on a small number of things. Giving some free uses for every ability jus helps the characer feel like they actually do these things, rather than it just being an unused option because stunning strike is a better use of Ki, or whatever.

I do get that the extra bookkeeping is a pain, but having played clases like the Paladin with half a dozen different resources to track it isn't really the worst thing ever.

Aye. I'm playtesting a whole new style of resource management for monks where they are trying to keep balance between two different pools. As long as they keep them even they are basically at will but if they start building up one side or the other then they start needing to burn focus (less cringy than ki)

[animorte]

Aye. I'm playtesting a whole new style of resource management for monks where they are trying to keep balance between two different pools. As long as they keep them even they are basically at will but if they start building up one side or the other then they start needing to burn focus (less cringy than ki)

Can’t wait to see this. Sounds intriguing. The true class of balance.

[MrStabby]

Aye. I'm playtesting a whole new style of resource management for monks where they are trying to keep balance between two different pools. As long as they keep them even they are basically at will but if they start building up one side or the other then they start needing to burn focus (less cringy than ki)

Oh, this sounds really cool...

So just a guess - some kind of mind/body duality thing where one side keys of dexterity and the other off wisdom? So you step too far from balance and it starts taking more resources?

However you do it, I wouldbe interested in hearing more. It kind of sounds like a huge change though.

[stoutstien]

Can’t wait to see this. Sounds intriguing. The true class of balance.

Still early days but it's looking good so far.


Oh, this sounds really cool...

So just a guess - some kind of mind/body duality thing where one side keys of dexterity and the other off wisdom? So you step too far from balance and it starts taking more resources?

However you do it, I wouldbe interested in hearing more. It kind of sounds like a huge change though.

Complete overhaul but I'm going to do every class by the end.

It's going to be determined by tradition (comes online at lv 1 now). So open hands is going to be the first one I do which is going to enhance the base chassis with offensive/defensive balance.

[Pooky the Imp]

The middle children of the Monk subclasses, eh?

My impression of Ascendant Dragon is that it really suffers from backloading. And nerfs.

What do I mean by that? I mean its features only really take off at level 11+. If I was only rating it based on tier 1 and 2, I might have rated it Red. And I’m not saying that just because of Aspect of the Wyrm, but because of the way their lower level features scale, too. That breath weapon jumps from 2d6 (7) to 3d8 (13.5) at 11 – in other words, it basically doubles in power from where it was at 10, and in the process actually becomes a meaningful upgrade over the Attack it replaces. And both their 3 and 6 features get better once they have more uses from a higher proficiency.

By contrast, at lower levels they don’t have a whole ton going over base Monk. A 2d4 breath weapon is so little damage it’s barely worth replacing the attack -- and as always, the real competition isn't "base Monk attack" it's "the schtick of a different Monk subclass." The Cha check ribbon isn’t near enough to turn you into a party face anytime soon. Even the early access to bypassing non magical weapon resistance only applies to your unarmed attacks, which only do 1d4 at this level (while a Versatile weapon might be doing 1d8 or 1d10). If you’re going from 1d8+ to 1d4, it’s like you’re suffering from Resistance on that hit anyways! Oof.

If you’re going to play at tier 1 and 2, you’re probably better off skipping this subclass. If you're playing 3 and 4, it's got some stuff going for it. I'd take it over the other AoE Monks, at the very least (though that bar was on the floor).

Level 3:
Tier 1 is rough for an Ascendant Dragon. You get 3 abilities and none of them are good (yet).

A 2d4 (save for half) Wis-based AoE is… not great. It's just "singe a goblin's eyebrows" damage. In many cases, you’ll simply be better off making the weapon attack it would have replaced (and it does need to replace one of your weapon attacks, not your unarmed bonus action hits). When using the proficiency charges, it doesn’t even trigger Ki-Fueled Attacks to swap your Martial Arts attack for a weapon attack. The ability will become better later, but for now the benefits are definitely very minor.

Draconic Strike is mostly an early-access version of the Monk’s level 6 ability… but it only works on your unarmed attacks, which are only a d4 right now (while your weapon attacks should be a d8 or more). This means that even if you meet an early enemy with non magical weapon resistance, this is only slightly helping your damage. Mostly on your bonus action attacks. Once in several blue moons, it might allow you to target an elemental vulnerability, but those are quite rare, even if you’re selecting from all 5 of the damage types. Like, “25 out of 1427 monsters I checked” rare.

And last, there’s the ability to reroll Cha(Intimidate) or Cha(Persuasion) checks. While this isn’t wasted on a failure, it also isn’t nearly enough to actually make you a good party face. It’s a tiny ribbon at best. And a rather janky one, since it can’t even work on non-binary Intimidate or Persuasion checks.

Level 6:
This is less flight and more an awkward floaty superjump where you fall (well, Slow Fall) at the end of the turn. And frustratingly, you can only use it when using Step of the Wind, which dramatically lowers the number of situations I'd actually want to use it.

Still, a flight option is better than no flight option, I guess.

Level 11:
The breath weapon jumps to 3d8 (nearly doubling in strength from level 10) and is now a meaningful improvement over the attack it replaces. Your proficiency has also scaled so that you have a fair number of uses of your level 3 and 6 features.

And you get Aspect of the Wyrm, giving you a decent bonus action support ability. It has two versions, both of which are situationally useful.

First, the Resistance aura. Now, this can be awesome in certain monster matchups, but it is definitely situational. It has to be pre-cast, and it's mono-elemental, and the radius is small. If your enemy can change types, or target someone outside the aura, they will. If you don't know what type you need ahead of time, you'll miss the opportunity. And so forth.

Second, the fear. It's only single target, and it's competing with your other single target bonus action offensive options, and unless you've maxxed your Wis first your save DC is a bit behind par for CC. Still, it's a bonus action for a pretty significant debuff, and it can potentially last multiple turns, and it's repeatable -- you can use the bonus action on a new creature every turn (or try to re-apply it if they save).

Level 17:
Another backloaded bump. You get 3 new abilities and they’re all helpful, if late.

You now just have real Blindsight, like, all of the time, for free. This really allows you to capitalize on vision blockers (or counter those used by the enemy – as well as stuff like invisibility, illusions, etc).

Augment Breath lets you spend 1 ki to boost your breath to 4d10. That’s just 6 damage short of the average of a Fireball – a big improvement over the single attack it replaces, and the increased ki cost is affordable at this level.

Aspect of the Wyrm gets buffed, at no extra ki cost. It now does 3d10 AoE damage in a wide, friendly-fire-free area -- though unfortunately, it is save negates rather than save for half (why do they keep doing this to AoE Monks? First they did it to the Sun Soul (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25609560&postcount=59), now the Ascendant Dragon too? Ugh). Combined with your Breath of the Dragon, it can let you put out a 7d10 AoE + either fear or resistance + an attack.

It’s just a shame that this playstyle wasn’t more… evenly distributed throughout the class, instead of, you know, level 17.

____

So, what can we do with the subclass? Well, being a ranged Monk can help out a bit -- you can more easily position for your AoE blasts and aura, you can just stand out of range of Frightened foes who can't approach you, and you can do stuff like Step of the Wind Fly up to a sniper perch if you get tired of enemies being close to you.

You can also get extra breath weapon AoEs via Haste or Action Surge (from a Fighter dip). Though going that route when you're already at 11+ can mean delaying things like Diamond Soul or your level 17 feature, definitely a tradeoff you'd have to consider. I've seen some people go Fizban's Dragonborn and really go all in on AoEs, but... this further exacerbates their MADness by making one of their breath weapons Con-based.

Ultimately, it's not going to be enough to actually make you the party's blaster, it's just going to add a bit of versatility to the base Monk kit.

Thank you very much for that. :smallsmile:

If you have time, I'd still love to hear your thoughts on the Astral Self Monk. Frankly, you're more concise and a good deal more interesting than the other guides and such I've seen on the subject.

Regarding the Monk subclasses you've discussed so far, would I be right in thinking that you rank Shadow and Long Death the highest?

[animorte]

Frankly, you're more concise and a good deal more interesting than the other guides and such I've seen on the subject.
Currently awaiting Ludic’s Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Reviews: featuring every subclass 5e.


Regarding the Monk subclasses you've discussed so far, would I be right in thinking that you rank Shadow and Long Death the highest?
Don’t forget Mercy.

[stoutstien]

Currently awaiting Ludic’s Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Reviews: featuring every subclass 5e.


Don’t forget Mercy.

And kensei

[Pooky the Imp]

Don’t forget Mercy.

I didn't think Ludic had reviewed Mercy yet? Unless I'm just an idiot and overlooked it.



And kensei

Is Kensei actually good? It always looked really wonky to me.

[stoutstien]

Is Kensei actually good? It always looked really wonky to me.

With tasha options they are monsters as run n gun archers. Easily top 5 archers IMO.

[animorte]

I didn't think Ludic had reviewed Mercy yet? Unless I'm just an idiot and overlooked it.
No, you’re correct. It has been briefly mentioned before though, in several areas.

[Amechra]

The issue with the Ascendant Dragon handing out free uses of its abilities isn't that the bookkeeping is excessive, it's that the stuff you get extra uses for kinda suck.

---

There's a weird quirk with a lot of Monk subclasses — namely, the fact that at low levels (where your resources are at their most precious), Flurry of Blows is simply more efficient than your other options. My theory is that, since Attack Action + Flurry of Blows is acceptable damage throughout T1 and T2, the initial idea was that those cool features (Breath of the Dragon, Deft Strike, Fangs of the Fire Snake, Hand of Harm, etc) were supposed to be nova stuff that you'd stack on top of flurrying in T1/T2, transitioning into being bread-and-butter options in T3.

That is, of course, not how people want to use those cool things.

The well-designed Monk subclasses are the ones that give you stuff to spend ki on outside of combat (Astral Self, Mercy, Shadow), allow you to spend ki in combat situations where Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike aren't normally applicable (Kensei), or are so ridiculously ki-efficient that they can get away with it (Astral Self, Long Death).

(I am intrigued by the BALANCE POOL idea, by the way.)

[strangebloke]

With tasha options they are monsters as run n gun archers. Easily top 5 archers IMO.
Agreed. Nobody who's seen such a build in action would think them weak.

Though I'd argue Kensei has always been good. I'm too sick right now to do a full right up ludic-style but even if you ignore the Tasha's features and how they work with Kensei, Kensei was always one of the best.

Getting access to martial weapons was usually seen as a very basic +1 to damage, trading a two handed spear for a two handed longsword, but in reality Kensei weapons opened a lot of doors.

The most relevant of which currently is the longbow or gun, but there's other options too. For one example, whips. You can replace the damage die with ma dice, enhance it with sharpen, and use the reach to kite opponents. You can actually shove at a distance with a whip, or you could dip fighter for dueling and trip attack.

These days you can throw slasher on there and really cut the enemy movement to nothing.

It's certifiably the best way to play a Belmont or an Indy.

And yeah you get your pick of magic items. Get a flame tongue, make it a +3 flame tongue, drop 1d10 or more pseudo smite damageand then ask your local for optimizer why they think monk damage is bad. DM throws in a joke magic weapon like a superpowered blowgun? You can use it better than anyone. No magic items? You're happy with that too.

Tasha's made kensei better but also Kensei was always good and the Tasha's buffs other than kfa effected them a lot less overall than other subclasses, because they already had good weapon access.

A lot of people's perception of Kensei was colored by them losing finesse greatswords, which they had in the UA version. It's really silly that WotC did that imo but people shouldn't write off the class entirely.

The issue with the Ascendant Dragon handing out free uses of its abilities isn't that the bookkeeping is excessive, it's that the stuff you get extra uses for kinda suck.

---

There's a weird quirk with a lot of Monk subclasses — namely, the fact that at low levels (where your resources are at their most precious), Flurry of Blows is simply more efficient than your other options. My theory is that, since Attack Action + Flurry of Blows is acceptable damage throughout T1 and T2, the initial idea was that those cool features (Breath of the Dragon, Deft Strike, Fangs of the Fire Snake, Hand of Harm, etc) were supposed to be nova stuff that you'd stack on top of flurrying in T1/T2, transitioning into being bread-and-butter options in T3.

That is, of course, not how people want to use those cool things.

The well-designed Monk subclasses are the ones that give you stuff to spend ki on outside of combat (Astral Self, Mercy, Shadow), allow you to spend ki in combat situations where Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike aren't normally applicable (Kensei), or are so ridiculously ki-efficient that they can get away with it (Astral Self, Long Death).

(I am intrigued by the BALANCE POOL idea, by the way.)

Yeah one hundred percent correct. And the issue with the free uses isn't just that it's more book keeping, it's that these abilities are horrifically ki inefficient after you've used the ki.

I did the math once, but for the low level breath attack to be worth the ki you usually have to hit three targets or be up against very very high AC to use it over FoB

[LudicSavant]

Mercy Monk combines ki-efficient offensive and defensive boosts with genuinely potent healing, both in and out of combat.

Flurry of Healing heals more than a Celestial Warlock's Healing Light on full blast. And unlike Healing Light, it basically also has a Twinned Quickened Lesser Restoration baked in. And can even cure the Stunned condition (You know what spell cures that? Power Word: Heal (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128167/how-can-i-end-the-stunned-condition)). For 1 ki.

About 30% of all monster statblocks -- counting all monsters of CR 1+ from all supplements -- are capable of inflicting status conditions that this can heal. And very unlike Lesser Restoration, you often heal it more action-efficiently than the effects were created. You can even potentially turn a scenario like 'half the party is locked up by Paralyzing Breath' into a decisive tempo advantage for your side. It's an unusually strong counter to these status effects.

As for the HP healing... it's enough to make you solidly out-meat a Bear-barian. Yes, really. It doesn't even take a lot of ki to do it.

Like, say you're level 12, with max Wis. The Barbarian's extra base HP is only a little over 1 ki of hp. Even if we counted their HP bar double for Rage, that's only about 7 ki of HP.

And you get 36 ki in a 2 short rest adventuring day.

And, you know, Deflect Missiles, Evasion, Poison immunity, status effect resistance, CC resistance, range, and will be frequently inflicting Disadvantage on enemies while the Barb will frequently be gifting them Advantage.

It's also flexible in its use. For example, you could attack twice and use Hands of Harm with your Action (doing damage roughly comparable to 3 attacks and inflicting Disadvantage, no save), and still do two heal punches with your bonus action. And it's ki-efficient enough that you can do that all day.

You also could use it to do a Flurry of Healing and Harm for damage roughly comparable to 4 attacks, plus just 1 heal punch / status cure (in which case it'd cost 1 ki rather than 2). Or you could use it for damage comparable to 5 attacks (also 1 ki).

I say roughly comparable because Hands of Harm's output is actually better than an attack with the same damage roll, for the same reason that Divine Smite is (e.g. can critfish, isn't wasted on a miss, triggers if any of multiple attacks hit, rather than if a specific attack hits, etc).

It's also great out of combat. You can basically heal (and status cure) the entire party to full as a '1 hour ritual' and get all your resources back. Even if you're strapped for time, ~20 hp per ki is good value. You have to Attack to trigger the Flurry, but you can totally just stomp the ground like an earthbender.

The ability to inflict Poisoned with no save is also quite good. Like, yes, a lot of monsters are immune to the Poisoned condition. But significantly more aren't, and it's a nasty condition.

Like, say you wanna go up against a dragon. You nerf their attacks, so that any damage they do is easily healed off. Their fear has a low chance to work on you and even if it does, you Stillness of Mind it. Their breath weapon bounces right off Evasion. Their Wing Attack won't ruin your ability to engage it like it can for some martials. Etc.

Also notable, the smite-like mechanic is 1/turn, but that means it also works with off-turn attacks like OAs, Brace/Riposte (for you maneuver-dippers out there), or an Order Cleric giving you reaction attacks, whatever.

The fact that your reaction attacks can basically threaten the damage of two attacks + Poison + Stunned means that you have some stickiness to you, which can further protect your allies. And your flexible range means you can rotate the frontliner or the like.

Honestly even their ribbon feature is one of the better ones among the Monk subclasses. 2 extra Wis-based skills, one of them being Insight? I'll take it. See if you can use Medicine for forensic purposes.

Their level 17 ability is nice too. I'm always a fan of anything that increases the percentage of party members capable of reversing death (not putting your eggs in one basket and all that). It's solidly better than Revivify or Raise Dead, and the fact that it cures status effects (as well as raising you from the dead with ~27 hp) means that it can even bring someone finished off by a Divine Word combo right back into the fight. And since it procs KFA, you can immediately slap the person who killed your friend with a Hand of Harm (dealing the damage of roughly 2 attacks and potentially poisoning/stunning them).

[MrStabby]

Way of mercy is good, but it isn't quite as good as I first thought it was.

I found it seriously constrained the the healing needing to touch someone. With it so often comong from flurry of blows and with flurry of blows tight restriction on when it happens I found that I wasn't always next to the person I wanted to heal when I could do so.

I also think that one of the strong points of the monk is target selection - you get to use your mobility to reach and hit targets that other melee PCs can't reach. Having to chose between taking full advantage of mobility or full advantage of your awesome in combat healing ability was a drag.

Still, it has so many quite powerful ablities stacked up that it still comes out looking good.

[stoutstien]

Way of mercy is good, but it isn't quite as good as I first thought it was.

I found it seriously constrained the the healing needing to touch someone. With it so often comong from flurry of blows and with flurry of blows tight restriction on when it happens I found that I wasn't always next to the person I wanted to heal when I could do so.

I also think that one of the strong points of the monk is target selection - you get to use your mobility to reach and hit targets that other melee PCs can't reach. Having to chose between taking full advantage of mobility or full advantage of your awesome in combat healing ability was a drag.

Still, it has so many quite powerful ablities stacked up that it still comes out looking good.

IMO that's what makes it a good design. You don't have a boring repeating flow chart of action every turn. You need to quickly assess the situation and figure out where you need to be. Mercy is my bar for any homebrew I do for monks.

[strangebloke]

IMO that's what makes it a good design. You don't have a boring repeating flow chart of action every turn. You need to quickly assess the situation and figure out where you need to be. Mercy is my bar for any homebrew I do for monks.

Or martials in general. Having lots of options and tools is what every martial should have, imo.

One of the great things about hands of healing is that you can actually just dump ki before a short rest to get back up to full. Granted, there are several ways of doing this somewhat reliably (nobody is calling song of rest or second wind overpowered) but if your DM is lenient with multiple short rests in a row a 6th level mercy monk can just dump 6 ki over the course of an hour for 6*(1d6+WIS) healing. That's FAT healing and I really struggle to see how people would argue that its not RAI.

[Japanadian]

I just started playing a little while back, and my current character is a lvl 6 shadow monk, lvl 2 twilight cleric. It's allowed me to teleport around and be a skirmisher, deal good damage, and also heal my buddies when they go down. I was inspired by Minato when I first created my character, so I also have the fey touched feat. I took hex as my spell. Now I go in, hex on round 1, then go around dealing a very solid chunk of damage. I also have a longsword I use as my monk weapon, so can attack again as a bonus action if I've used ki to attemp say a stunning strike.

[MrStabby]

IMO that's what makes it a good design. You don't have a boring repeating flow chart of action every turn. You need to quickly assess the situation and figure out where you need to be. Mercy is my bar for any homebrew I do for monks.

Yeah, not saying it isn't good design - just that it isn't as powerful as it first looks. It is a meaningful restriction.

I used to play a lot in T2 and certainly monks were decently powerful there if there were limits for feats and magic items. Now with the new feat options I am wondering if the creep of power in feats puts the monk in a better position.

So before Xanathar's monk had the issue of being a martial that didn't have much support for sharpshooter, Pole arm Mastery and Great Weapom Mastery - if you went down that route you didn't get a huge amount of support from your class features; if you didn't you missed out on the best feats for martials (though I did very much enjoy my shadow monk archer that did use the class mobility).

Now there are a lot of good feats beyond unsupported weapons - fey touched, elven accuracy, aberrant dragonmark, crusher, gift of the metalic dragon, bountiful luck, second chance...

Once you get stats you are happy with (or possibly long before) there are a number of good feats to take that there were not at the start of 5th edition.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, not saying it isn't good design - just that it isn't as powerful as it first looks. It is a meaningful restriction.

I used to play a lot in T2 and certainly monks were decently powerful there if there were limits for feats and magic items. Now with the new feat options I am wondering if the creep of power in feats puts the monk in a better position.

So before Xanathar's monk had the issue of being a martial that didn't have much support for sharpshooter, Pole arm Mastery and Great Weapom Mastery - if you went down that route you didn't get a huge amount of support from your class features; if you didn't you missed out on the best feats for martials (though I did very much enjoy my shadow monk archer that did use the class mobility).

Now there are a lot of good feats beyond unsupported weapons - fey touched, elven accuracy, aberrant dragonmark, crusher, gift of the metalic dragon, bountiful luck, second chance...

Once you get stats you are happy with (or possibly long before) there are a number of good feats to take that there were not at the start of 5th edition.

Monks are in a -way- better position now than they were in core. Or well. They're far better relative to the field of martials now than they were at the game's release, assuming you were using feats.

In core, monks had almost no ways to boost their damage at all. Magic item support was nonexistent, they had no 'power feat' that could get them high damage numbers (other than alert, an underrated damage feat) and unlike BM and barbarian, they had no way to boost accuracy. None of the races did much for the class either. With locked racial ability score improvements you were tied down to vhuman (with few good feat options), wood elf, and half elf. Less than ideal, to say the least.

If feats weren't in play, monks were more on par with fighters and barbarians and rogues, but that's only because the optimization ceiling was dramatically lowered. There was some optimization you could do by dipping cleric for spells like bless and divine favor (from war cleric) but overall while monks weren't terrible, they still definitely fell short in some areas.

Now? Well, monks have good options. Dedicated Weapon expands their magic item choices and gives every monk access to bows and guns. KFA makes them better at exploiting those magic weapons. Focused aim makes them better at exploiting sharpshooter for damage. For feats you have piercer, slasher, crusher, telekinetic, telepathic, sharpshooter, martial adept, and... well the list goes on. As for racial options, things are far better on that front. With flexible racial ability scores they've gone from three clear frontrunners to a whole zoo full of compelling options. To name a few:

MMOM Goliath: PROF * [1d12+CON] is a lot of HP over the course of a day. At 5th level, its going to increase your effective HP by like 74%. Mix with deflect missiles and you're extending your HP out massively over the course of a long day.
Mountain Dwarf: Ever feel like having two 18s by level 4? You can do it now! And you get +1 damage from those juicy martial weapon proficiencies.
Bugbear: Opening with Flurry of blows and getting +2d6 damage on every hit turns out to be pretty good. Who knew?
Githzerai: Shield is arguably one of the best spells in the game. Sure you only get to cast it once with this trait, but if you dip cleric for a single level you get a lot more first level slots to play with. Mage hand is nice too.


All this combined means that even an old subclass like open hand that's much worse than newer subclasses like mercy is still going to perform better than it did relative to the field five years ago.

And aside from there being more 'optimized' options, there's also more support for different unoptimized playstyles. STR monks have tortles now, and the unarmed fighting style. You can build a CON monk with Loxodont if you want to. Whip kensei is better than ever.

What I find funny is, this massive boost in overall power seems to have coincided directly with a lot of content critiquing the class for being weak, based on how the class performed at game release. It's always funny to me when people say "but nobody plays a monk like that" in response to one of these threads. People just need some time to learn the new features!

[Witty Username]

At least I have gotten into a habit of making sure I say my Pre-Tasha's and Post-Tasha's opinions, because at least for monks it can matter quite a bit if that book is in play and some people hate Tasha's.
-
In case it hasn't come up this thread, my personal take is:
Pre-Tasha's - monks are pretty hammered on race selection and reasonable feat selection, ki costs are rough at basically all levels of play, the class is fun but is probably the weakest class in the game and the rough spots may be deal breakers at some tables

Post-Tasha's - Mercy monk exists, race selection is much more agreeable, the optional rules tend to add to the monks ki expenditure so it is not as big a boost as people think. overall the class has issues but has some perks that are able to shine through more easily, I think it is still the weakest class in the game but is much less likely to be an issue beyond that, especially if mercy monk.
-
I think, I have seen three circles on it:
People that say monks were bad (usually citing Tasha's either by optional rules or the Mercy monk as things that have altered their opinion)
People that say monks are bad
People that say monks were and are good

Generally speaking, I haven't seen much conversation that hasn't included the Tasha's rules that wasn't from prior to Tasha's coming out.
I have seen more conversation that doesn't take in MOTM, but I am not sure how common it is, I didn't grab the book and don't ever intend to use it (it mostly gives options that are already in books I own, and no one in my play group wants to grab anything from it).

[Schwann145]

Monks certainly got better after Tashas, but the problem, I think, is that... well, so did everyone else. So the Monk improvements look *great* in a vacuum, but they don't look as good when you see everyone else also getting improved, even classes that didn't need improving.

•The changes to races is *very* good for character diversity/choice, but it doesn't necessarily help being a Monk. Sure, you can now be a Dwarf or Goliath or whatever and gain the (quite good) benefits of those races without sacrificing key Ability Scores... but it's not better than the benefits of being a Human or Half/Elf, it's just good in a different way.
•A Barbarian without PAM or GWM feels incredibly bad when they run out of Rage, and Monks still feel like this because they don't qualify for those powerhouse feats. The inclusion of new feats like Crusher helps, but those are available to anyone who wants to take them, and other classes get just as much use out of them as a Monk does but with arguably better core features.
•Ki starving is still an issue. The Tasha changes don't really fix this and, since most games end in t2 or early t3, you'll definitely still feel the sting until you near the end of your character's career, if you even manage to get that far.
•Mercy caries too much weight in Monk conversations. People tend to think the Monk is a great class now because you can go Mercy, but a subclass being good (even great) doesn't solve issues if you don't want to be that subclass.

Monk has certainly improved, there's no denying that. Dedicated Weapon is great and opens up a ton of (magic) weapon options that were previously unavailable (though the "no heavy weapons" caveat still feels unnecessary and hurts overall). Ki-fueled Attack is a great way to make sure you always have your Martial Arts attack option available, even when you don't make a standard attack. Quickened Healing and Focused Aim are great tools to have in the bag, and they're certainly superior Ki options than the core Monk is given, but when everything costs Ki you're unlikely to have any to spend on new abilities that cost Ki.

[Hael]

Monks are situational and pretty campaign dependent. They are hard to build (and they really only have about 3 or 4 classic builds that are suitable for the type of combats we play at our table) and are hard to play properly as their decision trees are pretty complicated..

If you do that, then they are ok, even powerful in a few spots. Still, they are still just martials at the end of the day. My favorite monk I played was the UA astral self monk (which people thought was OP, but really wasn't).

I think my biggest pet peeve is that it irritates me that their fists aren't stronger from the getgo. I don't like having to swap out weapons as we lvl up, especially if I have a distinct character concept in mind.

[strangebloke]

At least I have gotten into a habit of making sure I say my Pre-Tasha's and Post-Tasha's opinions, because at least for monks it can matter quite a bit if that book is in play and some people hate Tasha's.
-
In case it hasn't come up this thread, my personal take is:
Pre-Tasha's - monks are pretty hammered on race selection and reasonable feat selection, ki costs are rough at basically all levels of play, the class is fun but is probably the weakest class in the game and the rough spots may be deal breakers at some tables

Post-Tasha's - Mercy monk exists, race selection is much more agreeable, the optional rules tend to add to the monks ki expenditure so it is not as big a boost as people think. overall the class has issues but has some perks that are able to shine through more easily, I think it is still the weakest class in the game but is much less likely to be an issue beyond that, especially if mercy monk.

Most of this, I think, comes down to the combat-as-war vs. combat-as-sport paradigm.

In combat as sport, barbarians feel, if not overpowered, at least strong in their niche. Tank and Spank! Monks in such a context feel weak, since combat is typically not that challenging and avoiding damage feels less cool than taking damage. A samurai that opens with a burst of massive damage is similarly 'cool'. Paladins bursting down a giant monster in one lucky crit feels similarly awesome. The closest thing monk has as far as flashy, explosive, thematic tactics is stunning strike, and you'll usually see people fixate on that.

But in combat as war, stealth, movement, and initiative are paramount, which makes rogues and rangers and monks a lot better than their counterparts. (except for fighters, who are built completely differently here) Stealth + Surprise + attacking from further away than they can reach in a turn + having a higher movement speed than your opponent is enough to make a hyper deadly encounter feel trivial, which is ideal in a combat as war paradigm.

Overall I'd agree that monks are bottom three, but depending on your style of play I could see putting them over rogues and barbarians pretty easily.

Generally speaking, I haven't seen much conversation that hasn't included the Tasha's rules that wasn't from prior to Tasha's coming out.

I don't think there's been discussion that's ignored Tasha's as a whole, but arguments like "I have never seen a monk that used sharpshooter" or "I have never seen a monk that exploited darkness" are absolutely quite common in these discussions. There's this assumption that monks are uniquely married to a specific playstyle and that since that playstyle of hit-n-run is bad, so is monk, and that a gunk or sharpshooter kensei is an unreasonable optimization standard. It'd be like people assuming that rogues have to use daggers, or that rangers have to use two weapon fighting in melee.


Monks certainly got better after Tashas, but the problem, I think, is that... well, so did everyone else. So the Monk improvements look *great* in a vacuum, but they don't look as good when you see everyone else also getting improved, even classes that didn't need improving.

•The changes to races is *very* good for character diversity/choice, but it doesn't necessarily help being a Monk. Sure, you can now be a Dwarf or Goliath or whatever and gain the (quite good) benefits of those races without sacrificing key Ability Scores... but it's not better than the benefits of being a Human or Half/Elf, it's just good in a different way.
I really struggle to see how a wood elf is 'the same' in terms of power when compared with a goliath. Wood Elf's signature abilities are mask of the wild (better for rogues) and longbow proficiency (which used to break MA) and bonus movement speed (which was redundant). Everything a goliath or githzerai gives is massively more useful than that.


•A Barbarian without PAM or GWM feels incredibly bad when they run out of Rage, and Monks still feel like this because they don't qualify for those powerhouse feats. The inclusion of new feats like Crusher helps, but those are available to anyone who wants to take them, and other classes get just as much use out of them as a Monk does but with arguably better core features.

Sharpshooter? Gunner? What?

•Ki starving is still an issue. The Tasha changes don't really fix this and, since most games end in t2 or early t3, you'll definitely still feel the sting until you near the end of your character's career, if you even manage to get that far.
KFA massively improves every usage of ki, while not costing ki itself.

•Mercy caries too much weight in Monk conversations. People tend to think the Monk is a great class now because you can go Mercy, but a subclass being good (even great) doesn't solve issues if you don't want to be that subclass
Right, which is why Ludic and I have been talking about Open Hand and Kensei and Shadow monk builds.... all of which can perform great if you know what you're doing.

[Schwann145]

I really struggle to see how a wood elf is 'the same' in terms of power when compared with a goliath. Wood Elf's signature abilities are mask of the wild (better for rogues) and longbow proficiency (which used to break MA) and bonus movement speed (which was redundant). Everything a goliath or githzerai gives is massively more useful than that.
Depends on personal taste more than anything, IMO. Also playstyle is relevant: A ranged Monk is likely to be taking less damage than melee and will want as much movement as possible, so Wood Elf starts looking better than Goliath in that instance. (And there's never denying the power of Human's "Bonus Feat." ;) )


Sharpshooter? Gunner? What?
Again, no denying Tashas made Monks better, and Ranged Monks are a great example of this. However, they still have to sacrifice to make the playstyle work. You won't be Stunning Striking anything at range, or Martial Arts bonus attacking anything at range, etc, not to mention Monks want ASIs so badly that Feats *have* to be great to beat the +2.
Meanwhile, you don't have to sacrifice anything to make a Ranged playstyle work for other classes, like a Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, etc. So my point that, "great for Monks, but better for others," still stands.


KFA massively improves every usage of ki, while not costing ki itself.
KFA doesn't so much "improve ki usage," as it improves Martial Arts. Sure, you could look at it that way, because you benefit more anytime you spend ki, but it doesn't make spending ki feel better on it's own. Spending ki to Disengage still feels punishing and expensive and KFA doesn't address that at all. Spending multiple ki on a weak spell effect still feels punishing and expensive, even if you get to maintain a Martial Arts-style bonus attack when you do it. Etc.

[Amechra]

[...] Martial Arts bonus attacking anything at range, etc

[...]

KFA doesn't so much "improve ki usage," as it improves Martial Arts. [...]

KFA exists so that you can use Martial Arts at range. :p

(It's blue, but I'm only partially joking.)

[Witty Username]

Alright, the worst thing about monks post-Tasha's:
KFA & KFA
Or let me say it more clearly:
Ki-Fueled Attack and Ki Focused Aim.

I really hope I am misremembering and it is just Focused Aim. But it is a consistent source of confusion for me.

[LudicSavant]

Monks certainly got better after Tashas, but the problem, I think, is that... well, so did everyone else. So the Monk improvements look *great* in a vacuum, but they don't look as good when you see everyone else also getting improved, even classes that didn't need improving.

Depends what you're comparing them to. If you're comparing to casters, yes, casters are better, and classes that didn't need it (like Clerics) have gotten obese buffs. If you're comparing to a Barbarian, they got relatively little love from Tasha's and onwards.


A Barbarian without PAM or GWM feels incredibly bad when they run out of Rage, and Monks still feel like this because they don't qualify for those powerhouse feats

Sharpshooter is better than GWM/PAM.

[Schwann145]

I really hope I am misremembering and it is just Focused Aim. But it is a consistent source of confusion for me.
Don't worry, you are. ;) It's just "Focused Aim."


Depends what you're comparing them to. If you're comparing to casters, yes, casters are better, and classes that didn't need it (like Clerics) have gotten obese buffs. If you're comparing to a Barbarian, they got relatively little love from Tasha's and onwards.
I was thinking more Fighters and Rangers, tbh. Poor Barbs have it rough, IMO.


Sharpshooter is better than GWM/PAM.
PAM certainly; the extra attack is basically wasted on a Monk. GWM depends; SS lets you stay at range and ignore all the cover, which is great, but extra attacks will all cost you Ki. GWM lets you MA without spending Ki, which is much better, but you have to deal with the melee life, which is worse.

[Amechra]

GWM lets you MA without spending Ki, which is much better, but you have to deal with the melee life, which is worse.

Small issue with this: heavy weapons (which are required for GWM's -5/+10) can't be Monk weapons, so you can't MA while wielding a heavy weapon.

[Schwann145]

Small issue with this: heavy weapons (which are required for GWM's -5/+10) can't be Monk weapons, so you can't MA while wielding a heavy weapon.
The point being made was theoretical. :smallwink:

[LudicSavant]

The point being made was theoretical. :smallwink:

It doesn't even really work as a "theoretical" point. A Gunner/Sharpshooter can walk into melee, and use MA, when they feel like it. And they swing like they were wielding a power attacking greataxe as a Monk weapon.

[Schwann145]

It doesn't even really work as a "theoretical" point. A Gunner/Sharpshooter can walk into melee, and use MA, when they feel like it. And they swing like they were wielding a power attacking greataxe as a Monk weapon.
It's never reasonable to assume Gunner is available, IMO, so I was really only comparing GWM and SS. (Also, the quote I was replying to did not include Gunner. All you mentioned there was Sharpshooter.)
Gunner/SS together is a very expensive ask for a class that loves ASIs, and "no guns allowed" is a pretty common and/or popular rule at D&D tables.

It's also notable that it's requiring two feats to match the effectiveness of one here. It would just be better all around to remove the silly anti-heavy restriction on Monk weapons. (It's not like monks aren't famous for heavy weapons or anything: bisento, naginata, kanabo, guandao, podao, spade, kwandao, and on and on and on...)

[LudicSavant]

I think my biggest pet peeve is that it irritates me that their fists aren't stronger from the getgo. I don't like having to swap out weapons as we lvl up, especially if I have a distinct character concept in mind.

Yeah, it is annoying, isn't it?

Barring some much-needed love for the martials in One D&D, here's what you can do right now: Go VHuman Mercy with Fighting Initiate (Unarmed) and then swap out the FI to something like Blindfighting later on. Next best thing is being one of the Monk races from MPMM that gives you a natural weapon that makes 1d6 unarmed strikes, plus something else of value (Aarakocra for instance).

[MrStabby]

Yeah, it is annoying, isn't it?

Barring some much-needed love for the martials in One D&D, here's what you can do right now: Go VHuman Mercy with Fighting Initiate (Unarmed) and then swap out the FI to something like Blindfighting later on. Next best thing is being one of the Monk races from MPMM that gives you a natural weapon that makes 1d6 unarmed strikes, plus something else of value (Aarakocra for instance).

For me the bigger source of sadness is the lack of support for grappling. I would have thought that the martial arts character would be a good grappler - honestly I would have liked an alternative martial arts feature/replacement for flurry of blows to be about grappling and throwing so you could opt for that rather than sriking.

I do get that it would be problematic as it would deny you a whole bundle of class features a lot of the time (immunity to the grappled condition being more common than immunity to bludgeoning damage) or that some creatures can obviate a grapple by teleporting away;I guess I just wish this style was better supported for the monk (without tying you into specific races or making you need too many expensive feats or suboptimal stat allocations).

[J-H]

I was typing up a long post, then realized it was pointless. It is a MAD issue for monks.

You can partly resolve it with Astral monk (aka Soulknife, the monk that forms magic weapons with his mind). Alternatively, you can take that one skill feat that gives you Expertise in a skill, and just get PBx2 to grappling and +1 to a stat, and be "good, but not great" because you're not adding your DEX mod to your Athletics check. A half-feat isn't too big of a price to pay.
Monks have lots of other things they are inherently good at. Athletics(Str) just isn't one of them.

[MrStabby]

I was typing up a long post, then realized it was pointless. It is a MAD issue for monks.

You can partly resolve it with Astral monk (aka Soulknife, the monk that forms magic weapons with his mind). Alternatively, you can take that one skill feat that gives you Expertise in a skill, and just get PBx2 to grappling and +1 to a stat, and be "good, but not great" because you're not adding your DEX mod to your Athletics check. A half-feat isn't too big of a price to pay.
Monks have lots of other things they are inherently good at. Athletics(Str) just isn't one of them.

I think this illustrates my point perfectly.

Yes you can do some things to be OK - you can be pigeonholed into a subclass to be... OK at it (so no shadowmonk grappler). Or you have to expend an expensive feat to be OK at it (and good luck doing that in a featless game). It just highlights the lack of actual support on the core class for something I feel a martial artist should be able to do. It fealt like a fighter needing to expend a feat to be proficient in greatswords or ony one cleric domain getting access to the bless spell. Grapples and throws just seem so fundamentally part of the core concept of a martial artist that gating them behind these other features seems wrong.

[strangebloke]

well you can go tortle and take a rogue level. Again, not ideal but it is there.

Agreed it should have more support, though arguably a lot of other features like open hand make you better at filling the role of a grappler even if you aren't using the button labeled 'grapple'

[MrStabby]

well you can go tortle and take a rogue level. Again, not ideal but it is there.

Agreed it should have more support, though arguably a lot of other features like open hand make you better at filling the role of a grappler even if you aren't using the button labeled 'grapple'

Yes, It would certainly hurt less if those open hand features had been included as part of the core monk.

[Sception]

What are your experiences playing as or with someone playing a Monk? Was it a fun experience? Why/why not? Finally what was the build of the Monk ( race, subclass, stats rolled, feats, multiclass, etc.) I ask because I worry about the MAD of the class, especially regarding their AC and would like to hear if it was an issue with anyone's play experience or not.

I played a ghostwise halfling shadow monk from late tier 1 to late tier 2. At those levels the madness wasn't /too/ bad, though it's really in tier 3 and later where that hurts the most, as the gap widens between the one or maybe two stats you raise with levels and the ones that are left behind. Damage output even at thsoe levels was noticeably low. shoving/grappling wasn't really an option for the character (small size, plus athletics being strength based really would have made madness a problem). ki management was an issue - stunning fist was useful at times, but it was often an either/or between doing that and doing cool shadow stuff. Pass Without Trace was awesome for enabling whole party infiltration scenarios, but that's more about the spell itself being OP than the class or subclass that happens to grant it. Shadow step not working in the area of my subclass darkness spell due to not being able to see through it myself was so sad that iirc my dm just let me see through my own darkness anyway - after all shadow sorcerers get to. Having to play around the party meant that it wasn't super exploitable anyway.

I'm maybe making it sound worse than it was. The character was still fun, and shadow monk stuff is still cool, even if it's not exactly good (outside of pass without trace, though there are better ways to access it). We did have one adventure where the character really, really shined. Between my monk's Pass Without Trace and another spellcaster's Shape Stone we were basically able to skip straight to the end of a dungeon, where my monk was then able to use shadow step and Silence to get the drop on and mostly nullify the spells of the Liche boss, who was secluded alone in his laboratory since the alarm had not been raised. The party quickly beat down the liche (with a beefier character supplying the grapple to keep it in range of Silence, which masked the sound of the combat so the guards outside the room weren't alerted), after which we stole the item we had come for and left the way we came.

That was fantastic and felt properly ninja-esque, exactly as one wants from a shadow monk - though again any character able to cast pass without trace and silence would have been able to supply my part in it all mechanically while probably being a more effective character otherwise.


I did ditch the character relatively shortly after that (betrayed the party & became a hostile npc, stealing the various plot critical mcguffins we had been gathering in the process - you never can trust those sneaky ninja types). The lich adventure was a crowning moment I immediately knew the character wasn't going to top, and honestly the combat situation had already been getting frustrating and looking ahead I could tell things weren't getting any more favorable going forward.

...

And that was my experience with Shadow Monk, which until Tasha's I would have considered to be the best Monk flat out. One fantastic shining moment that felt awesome when an adventure perfectly aligned with my character's abilities, standing over a whole bunch of scenarios where my character ran around very fast achieving very little. Honestly reminds me a fair bit of 4e's shadow assassin - another very flavorful shadow-stepping mystical ninja with darkness powers but that really just lacked the raw numbers to meaningfully contribute in combat, which is a problem because ime combat is like 60% of a D&D game minimum, and while there are notable exceptions, the remaining 40% tends to be role-play shenanigans that usually don't hinge on explicit character mechanics anyway.

I've meant to come back to monk since tasha came out, though, as the mercy monk actually looks halfway decent in a fight. With 5.5/6e/whatever on the way, I'm not sure I'll get the chance.

[strangebloke]

Yes, It would certainly hurt less if those open hand features had been included as part of the core monk.

No disagreement here. I am strongly of the opinion that basically all the 'vanilla' subclass martial options should be universal. All rangers should get to chose between colossus slayer and horde breaker for example, and all fighters should get maneuvers.

[Sception]

No disagreement here. I am strongly of the opinion that basically all the 'vanilla' subclass martial options should be universal. All rangers should get to chose between colossus slayer and horde breaker for example, and all fighters should get maneuvers.

I agree re: all fighters should get maneuvers, with subclasses getting subclass specific maneuvers (eldritch knight maneuver to also cast a spell, etc), though maneuvers aren't from the vanilla fighter, the vanilla fighter is the champion.

I disagree re not having any vanilla or narrative-neutral subclass options at all. There are character concepts that are just ranger, not spooky shadow cave ranger or fancy dragon pet ranger or what have you. If every subclass had to be a huge thematic deviation from the core class concept then it wouldn't be possible to focus on that core concept outright. But knowing where to draw the line between 'this is something every X should have' vs. 'this is something only for Xs who aren't also some sort of Z' remains difficult.

[Amechra]

Honestly, one of the huge things missing from the Monk is the ability to pick up cool new kung-fu moves over time. Like, if we purely go off of examples from existing fiction, you could make a compelling argument that the Monk deserves the Wizard's "theoretically, I have no cap on how many cool tricks I can know, and I can adventure to find more" shtick more than the Wizard does.

[MrStabby]

Honestly, one of the huge things missing from the Monk is the ability to pick up cool new kung-fu moves over time. Like, if we purely go off of examples from existing fiction, you could make a compelling argument that the Monk deserves the Wizard's "theoretically, I have no cap on how many cool tricks I can know, and I can adventure to find more" shtick more than the Wizard does.

I would totally play that class. Travelling the world to perfect ones art as a wandering adventurer sounds pretty cool.

[Sorinth]

For me the bigger source of sadness is the lack of support for grappling. I would have thought that the martial arts character would be a good grappler - honestly I would have liked an alternative martial arts feature/replacement for flurry of blows to be about grappling and throwing so you could opt for that rather than sriking.

I do get that it would be problematic as it would deny you a whole bundle of class features a lot of the time (immunity to the grappled condition being more common than immunity to bludgeoning damage) or that some creatures can obviate a grapple by teleporting away;I guess I just wish this style was better supported for the monk (without tying you into specific races or making you need too many expensive feats or suboptimal stat allocations).

Astral Self's ability to use Wisdom instead of Strength would've been really nice to give to the base class. Or better yet allow monks to pick a skill or two that they can use/add their wisdom mod for so that they can get into using those non-dex/wis skills but still having it be a build choice on what to focus on.

[Gignere]

Honestly, one of the huge things missing from the Monk is the ability to pick up cool new kung-fu moves over time. Like, if we purely go off of examples from existing fiction, you could make a compelling argument that the Monk deserves the Wizard's "theoretically, I have no cap on how many cool tricks I can know, and I can adventure to find more" shtick more than the Wizard does.

But if they did that they will have to remove all the racist baggage and there is noway WoTC would do that. /s

Seriously they need to stop calling it the monk class, it’s so offensive, but I guess it’s still cool to offend Asians.

[strangebloke]

I agree re: all fighters should get maneuvers, with subclasses getting subclass specific maneuvers (eldritch knight maneuver to also cast a spell, etc), though maneuvers aren't from the vanilla fighter, the vanilla fighter is the champion.

I disagree re not having any vanilla or narrative-neutral subclass options at all. There are character concepts that are just ranger, not spooky shadow cave ranger or fancy dragon pet ranger or what have you. If every subclass had to be a huge thematic deviation from the core class concept then it wouldn't be possible to focus on that core concept outright. But knowing where to draw the line between 'this is something every X should have' vs. 'this is something only for Xs who aren't also some sort of Z' remains difficult.
Well, its true that the champion is 'generic' but I also don't think it needs to exist. It's just a lazy trap option with very little interesting about it. The samurai achieves the same effect much more neatly

But my basic point is that all classes should have multiple options built in at every couple levels. If you also want something like the battlemaster to exist, where their subclass is GETTING EVEN MORE MANEUVERS then sure I'd be down, or if you want a 'pick it and forget it' option for a maneuver, then you can do that too.

Honestly, one of the huge thinthags missing from the Monk is the ability to pick up cool new kung-fu moves over time. Like, if we purely go off of examples from existing fiction, you could make a compelling argument that the Monk deserves the Wizard's "theoretically, I have no cap on how many cool tricks I can know, and I can adventure to find more" shtick more than the Wizard does.

Compelling case that all martial classes should be able to do this with maneuvers.

but oh nooooo that would be like ToB 4e oh noooooo.

[Sorinth]

I would totally play that class. Travelling the world to perfect ones art as a wandering adventurer sounds pretty cool.

If you don't mind MCing, then you could build this concept fairly easily.
Levels 1-5 Monk: You are picking up new moves every level except 4 (And you could potentially take a feat to give you something)
Levels 6-8 Fighter: Battlemaster as the subclass you add a lot of new kung-fu moves via maneuvers and again get something most levels thanks to the FS at level 1.

It kind of loses steam for learning new kung-fu moves after that, there's adding new FS or Feats but that's about it. You also might want to grab level 6 monk depending on subclass before going fighter but overall it should really allow you to play that wandering martial arts sage as practically every level you are getting new combat options.

[Amnestic]

Compelling case that all martial classes should be able to do this with maneuvers.

but oh nooooo that would be like ToB 4e oh noooooo.

Slides in (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Ifm80Gz-kUK6).

[Miele]

Want to make the monk an awesome class?
I thiught about two big changes and I think they could work:
1) get rid of Ki for basic skills, like Flurry of blows, Step of the wind, Patient defense, etc.
Leave ki cost for spell-like skills, such as PwT from Shadow Monk.

2) Allow them to use Dex instead of Str when attempting certain actions, such as grappling or swimming (basically Athletics checks).

[Sception]

Well, its true that the champion is 'generic' but I also don't think it needs to exist. It's just a lazy trap option with very little interesting about it. The samurai achieves the same effect much more neatly

But my basic point is that all classes should have multiple options built in at every couple levels. If you also want something like the battlemaster to exist, where their subclass is GETTING EVEN MORE MANEUVERS then sure I'd be down, or if you want a 'pick it and forget it' option for a maneuver, then you can do that too.

I'm on board with all of that. 'What to do with the fighter' has been pretty clear since day one. Maneuvers should have been a core part of the class, battlemaster is thematically generic enough that it should have just been the 'default subclass' fighter to start with, simply getting more maneuver dice or improved maneuver dice scaling & so on, while all the other non-battlemaster subclasses worth speaking of could easily have some of their unique stuff re-interpreted as alternate maneuvers.


& yeah, monks focusing more on a variety of tome-of-battle-esque martial arts techniques and stances, gaining more as they level and even potentially learning them directly from scrolls and such like wizards can learn spells would be very cool, even if there would be some mechanical & conceptual overlap with fighter maneuvers. Then again, like half the classes in the game can be 'spellcasters' using basically the same mechanical system, so I don't see why more than one class having a similar implementation for martial arts techniques should be a problem.



If 5.5's class categories were about power source rather than a half-hearted version of 4e's class roles then you could even throw rogue in with that and build rogue techniques and class features around their own brand of maneuvers instead of hanging all of the rogue's offensive potential on the singular sneak attack feature.

Like:
Martial Classes (maneuvers, stances): Fighter, Monk, Rogue
Primal Classes (druidic spells? Some sort of nature spirit mechanic?): druid, ranger, barbarian
Arcane Classes (arcane spells - mostly damage, debuff, & control) - sorcerer, wizard, warlock, artificer
Divine Classes (divine spells - mostly healing & buffs) - cleric, paladin, bard

Admittedly some re-flavoring of the bard there, though with their leaning towards healing and support they've always had one foot in each of the divine and arcane pools. You could just as easily trade spots with warlock, since bard leans their magic in a more arcanish way (study, knowledge, lore), while warlock learns their magic in a more divine way (granted to them by a supernatural patron) - but I'd keep it as is since, regardless of how they come to it, a warlocks actual powers are more arcanish and a bards more divinish.


But that's not the direction the devs are taking, so it's neither here nor there.