Tripple damage grapple???

[Max Caysey]

So, I have a question pertaining to the interaction of different feats, and class abilities in conjunction with natural weapons when dealing with grapple.

This question is a derivative of the bear warrior questions I’ve been asking of late. This question contains too many details for being a follow up question to that thread, so I’m asking here… Please bear with! 😉


So, let’s assume I run the following build: Martial Monk 1, Bear Totem Barbarian 5, Fist of the Forest 1, Ranger 1, Bear Warrior 1, Nature’s Warrior 1.

Assume also that I have the Beast Strike and Improved Natural Weapon (Claw) feats as well as the Serpent's Coils class ability from Nature’s Warrior.

Assume now that I have raged and currently am in Black Bear form (Netting 30 str). I start a grapple and my initial touch attack was successful. I now have the option to make an opposed grapple check as per the grapple rules. Assuming I win that, there seem to be three rules activating:

1) The normal grapple rules, 2) Beast Strike feat, and 3) Serpent's Coils.

The grapple rules states: If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

Beast Strike rules states: When you make an unarmed strike or grapple check to deal damage, you may add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed trike or grapple damage.

Serpent’s Coils rules states: When in the form of a creature that normally has the improved grab ability, the nature's warrior gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks and does damage equal to 1d8 + her Strength bonus after winning an opposed grapple check.

So being fist of the forest my unarmed strike damage is 1d8+10, being bear warrior with improved natural attack my claw damage is 1d6+10 and having the Serpent’s Coil class ability adds another 1d8+10.

So, how much damage do I do?


If my understanding is correct, on a successful grapple check I deal: (1d8+10) + (1d6+10) + (1d8+10)

Any help either confirming this or explaining why I made some mistake along the way would be great!


Cheers!

[animewatcha]

Bear form is counting as wild shape ability by RAW? A permissive DM might handwaive it.

[tyckspoon]

Bear form is counting as wild shape ability by RAW? A permissive DM might handwaive it.

Wild Shape-variant Ranger.



If my understanding is correct, on a successful grapple check I deal: (1d8+10) + (1d6+10) + (1d8+10)

This appears correct to me.

[Max Caysey]

Bear form is counting as wild shape ability by RAW?

Well I at least thought so… I did so, because Warshaper mentions bear warrior as part of one of its prerequisites under wild shape… that to me at least indicated as such…

[Melcar]

So, I have a question pertaining to the interaction of different feats, and class abilities in conjunction with natural weapons when dealing with grapple.

This question is a derivative of the bear warrior questions I’ve been asking of late. This question contains too many details for being a follow up question to that thread, so I’m asking here… Please bear with! 😉


So, let’s assume I run the following build: Martial Monk 1, Bear Totem Barbarian 5, Fist of the Forest 1, Ranger 1, Bear Warrior 1, Nature’s Warrior 1.

Assume also that I have the Beast Strike and Improved Natural Weapon (Claw) feats as well as the Serpent's Coils class ability from Nature’s Warrior.

Assume now that I have raged and currently am in Black Bear form (Netting 30 str). I start a grapple and my initial touch attack was successful. I now have the option to make an opposed grapple check as per the grapple rules. Assuming I win that, there seem to be three rules activating:

1) The normal grapple rules, 2) Beast Strike feat, and 3) Serpent's Coils.

The grapple rules states: If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

Beast Strike rules states: When you make an unarmed strike or grapple check to deal damage, you may add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed trike or grapple damage.

Serpent’s Coils rules states: When in the form of a creature that normally has the improved grab ability, the nature's warrior gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks and does damage equal to 1d8 + her Strength bonus after winning an opposed grapple check.

So being fist of the forest my unarmed strike damage is 1d8+10, being bear warrior with improved natural attack my claw damage is 1d6+10 and having the Serpent’s Coil class ability adds another 1d8+10.

So, how much damage do I do?


If my understanding is correct, on a successful grapple check I deal: (1d8+10) + (1d6+10) + (1d8+10)

Any help either confirming this or explaining why I made some mistake along the way would be great!


Cheers!

One thing tho. Improved Grap states that you use your natural weapons instead of unarmed strike for the grapple sequence. So your damage would be (claw+str) + (claw+str) + (serpent’s coil).

And it’s worth noticing that serpents coil does not activate unless you have improved grab. Black bears usually don’t iirc!

[animewatcha]

So few things. Insufficient levels of wild-shape ranger for wild-shape in above build (so far).

Warshaper- post. IIRC, that book also 'introduces' shapechanger subtype. Namely the subtype gets tacked on either naturally (changeling) or when you have altered body enough that it is beyond a 'disguise self' or something like that. A druid wild-shaping would gain shapechanger subtype. Polymorph would get you the subtype.

Natural weapon versus unarmed strike- post. part of the build is martial monk. So natural weapon-unarmed strike angle is covered.

[Gruftzwerg]

So, how much damage do I do?


If my understanding is correct, on a successful grapple check I deal: (1d8+10) + (1d6+10) + (1d8+10)



Sorry but this is incorrect imho.

1.
When in the form of a creature that normally has the improved grab ability, the nature's warrior gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks and does damage equal to 1d8 + her Strength bonus after winning an opposed grapple check.
While Serpent's Coil adds a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, the dmg ain't "added". No indicator that is gets added or is otherwise some kind of extra dmg and thus it exchanges your dmg. Due to this, it would make both your unarmed strike and claw dmg irrelevant...

2. You only get your STR bonus "once per attack" and not for each type of weapon dmg the attack may consist.
STR Bonus Damage != Weapon Damage
The "attack" deals "weapon dmg" + "str bonus dmg".


If you are looking for Unarmed Strike + Claw dmg optimization, you should look into Clawlocks. The Eldritch Claws feat (dragon magazine) combined with Beast Strike gives you double "unarmed strike dmg" + "claw dmg" + STR bonus. Add a necklace of natural attacks + "Sizing" for extra cheese. Now you can size your Beast Strikes up to colossal size (for some attack penalty in exchange). Have a look at my Claw of Malar build (see signature) for more optimization info.

[Zancloufer]

Sorry but this is incorrect imho.

1.
While Serpent's Coil adds a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, the dmg ain't "added". No indicator that is gets added or is otherwise some kind of extra dmg and thus it exchanges your dmg. Due to this, it would make both your unarmed strike and claw dmg irrelevant...


Well if it isn't added then what is it? Do note that the condition is "winning an opposed grapple check". Most of the time you do not deal damage when winning a grapple check. Only when already grappling you can make an opposed grapple check, which if you win, you deal damage. The simple order of operations is this;
1] Already in a grapple, make grapple check to deal extra damage. If succeed Damage Dealt
2] You have serpent's coil. You just succeeded a grapple deal 1d8+str mod damage.
3] With Beast strike when dealing damage via a grapple check (or unarmed attack) deal claw/slam damage.


Sorry but this is incorrect imho.
2. You only get your STR bonus "once per attack" and not for each type of weapon dmg the attack may consist.
STR Bonus Damage != Weapon Damage
The "attack" deals "weapon dmg" + "str bonus dmg".

This seems almost obtuse? Two of the three abilities state out right you add your STR bonus to a dice roll. Sure the "Natural Claw/Slam" doesn't, but your default claw/slam is still xdy+z(STR mod). So unless you want to argue whenever it says "Do x attack extra" doesn't include stat modifiers unless explicitly stated IDK what exactly your trying to argue.


Also pretty sure default bears don't have improved grab. Unless you've found some sort of alien bear or something.

[Gruftzwerg]

Well if it isn't added then what is it? Do note that the condition is "winning an opposed grapple check". Most of the time you do not deal damage when winning a grapple check. Only when already grappling you can make an opposed grapple check, which if you win, you deal damage. The simple order of operations is this;
1] Already in a grapple, make grapple check to deal extra damage. If succeed Damage Dealt
2] You have serpent's coil. You just succeeded a grapple deal 1d8+str mod damage.
3] With Beast strike when dealing damage via a grapple check (or unarmed attack) deal claw/slam damage.


This seems almost obtuse? Two of the three abilities state out right you add your STR bonus to a dice roll. Sure the "Natural Claw/Slam" doesn't, but your default claw/slam is still xdy+z(STR mod). So unless you want to argue whenever it says "Do x attack extra" doesn't include stat modifiers unless explicitly stated IDK what exactly your trying to argue.


Also pretty sure default bears don't have improved grab. Unless you've found some sort of alien bear or something.

Let me try to explain it in another way..

1. Look up ANY "weapon dmg" (doesn't matter if manufactured, improvised or natural). None of these deal STR dmg by itself. We have general rules for attacking and those tell you to which "Attacks" you add your STR bonus (e.g. melee and thrown attacks). "Weapon Damage" by itself ain't affected by STR. Your "Attack" is affected by your STR.
Weapon Damage = xDy
Attack Damage = Weapon Damage + STR bonus + ...

2. Serpent's Coil is more specific and thus may trump the general rules. While you may argue by RAW that is applies also dmg on non-attack grapple checks (e.g. grapple check for moving your enemy in a grapple), it still doesn't "add dmg" when you make a grapple check for attacking your foe in a grapple. Because Serpent's Coil is more specific, it trumps the general rules for applying dmg. It still exchanges the dmg value. Imho the author failed to be precise enough by RAW here...

3. No matter in which order you put em together, Serpent's Coil ruins the intended combo here imho. If you put it last in order it exchanges your dmg done, since it doesn't "add dmg". And if you start with it, you ain't doing "unarmed strike dmg" anymore and thus can't profit from Beast Strike... Either way feels like a dead end here to me.

edit: to OP
If you are looking for ways to "multiply" your STR bonus, you need to look for overall multiplies like "crit" or "charge attack multipliers".

[Zancloufer]

Let me try to explain it in another way..

1. Look up ANY "weapon dmg" (doesn't matter if manufactured, improvised or natural). None of these deal STR dmg by itself. We have general rules for attacking and those tell you to which "Attacks" you add your STR bonus (e.g. melee and thrown attacks). "Weapon Damage" by itself ain't affected by STR. Your "Attack" is affected by your STR.
Weapon Damage = xDy
Attack Damage = Weapon Damage + STR bonus + ...


Yeah I will concede that if/when it specifies "weapon damage" you wouldn't get your STR mod. However very few (if any) abilities specify "weapon damage" and in this case it says "Claw, Slam or Unarmed strike damage". No mention of a weapon there so your point is moot in this specific case as "weapon damage" isn't mentioned.



2. Serpent's Coil is more specific and thus may trump the general rules. While you may argue by RAW that is applies also dmg on non-attack grapple checks (e.g. grapple check for moving your enemy in a grapple), it still doesn't "add dmg" when you make a grapple check for attacking your foe in a grapple. Because Serpent's Coil is more specific, it trumps the general rules for applying dmg. It still exchanges the dmg value. Imho the author failed to be precise enough by RAW here...

3. No matter in which order you put em together, Serpent's Coil ruins the intended combo here imho. If you put it last in order it exchanges your dmg done, since it doesn't "add dmg". And if you start with it, you ain't doing "unarmed strike dmg" anymore and thus can't profit from Beast Strike... Either way feels like a dead end here to me.

If anything I would argue the grapple rules are more specific as there is a whole paragraph on how you deal damage vs this ability which is just "Win opposed Grapple. Deal 1d8+Str damage". Serpent's Coil also doesn't specify that it removes other sources of damage. In-fact BOTH abilities in this case would specify they "deal damage" after a successful oppose grapple check. You could just choose which ability you use then or you hit a "Logic Error" as you have two equally true phrases (which you argue) are mutually exclusive.

Also if it said that it "Adds 1d8+STR after a sucessful grapple opposed grapple check" it would also be problematic. One could argue that you have to be dealing damage to actually do anything. Also if it says "Add" you add that damage to an existing attack. Which means instead of dealing [1d8+STR - DR] + [1d6+STR - DR], you would deal 1d8+1d6+2STR - DR. DR isn't always an issue but multiple attacks means multiple time for DR to apply.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah I will concede that if/when it specifies "weapon damage" you wouldn't get your STR mod. However very few (if any) abilities specify "weapon damage" and in this case it says "Claw, Slam or Unarmed strike damage". No mention of a weapon there so your point is moot in this specific case as "weapon damage" isn't mentioned.

Beast Strike and Eldritch Claws are fine, since both have keywords that indicate that the dmg gets "added", is "extra" or a "bonus". Serpent's Coil lacks any keywords in that regard. And remember the unspoken rule in 3.5 that you may not add things if the rules don't tell you to do so (e.g. size changes). Thus Serpent's Coil trumps any dmg you would otherwise deal with a successful grapple check.



If anything I would argue the grapple rules are more specific as there is a whole paragraph on how you deal damage vs this ability which is just "Win opposed Grapple. Deal 1d8+Str damage". Serpent's Coil also doesn't specify that it removes other sources of damage. In-fact BOTH abilities in this case would specify they "deal damage" after a successful oppose grapple check. You could just choose which ability you use then or you hit a "Logic Error" as you have two equally true phrases (which you argue) are mutually exclusive.

Also if it said that it "Adds 1d8+STR after a sucessful grapple opposed grapple check" it would also be problematic. One could argue that you have to be dealing damage to actually do anything. Also if it says "Add" you add that damage to an existing attack. Which means instead of dealing [1d8+STR - DR] + [1d6+STR - DR], you would deal 1d8+1d6+2STR - DR. DR isn't always an issue but multiple attacks means multiple time for DR to apply.

As said above, Serpent's Coil doesn't need to explicitly tell you to remove other sources of damage. The 3.5 rules work the other way around. They need to tell you that the dmg is added/extra/bonus or otherwise it will trump anything mentioned before. ("Specific Trumps General")

RAW seems to be very bad worded imho. While I stand to my RAW interpretation, I wouldn't enforce it as "play advice". The rule text feels lackluster imho, so take it as you like for your actual table game (if you ask me^^).

[Melcar]

Sorry but this is incorrect imho.

1.
While Serpent's Coil adds a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, the dmg ain't "added". No indicator that is gets added or is otherwise some kind of extra dmg and thus it exchanges your dmg. Due to this, it would make both your unarmed strike and claw dmg irrelevant...

2. You only get your STR bonus "once per attack" and not for each type of weapon dmg the attack may consist.
STR Bonus Damage != Weapon Damage
The "attack" deals "weapon dmg" + "str bonus dmg".


If you are looking for Unarmed Strike + Claw dmg optimization, you should look into Clawlocks. The Eldritch Claws feat (dragon magazine) combined with Beast Strike gives you double "unarmed strike dmg" + "claw dmg" + STR bonus. Add a necklace of natural attacks + "Sizing" for extra cheese. Now you can size your Beast Strikes up to colossal size (for some attack penalty in exchange). Have a look at my Claw of Malar build (see signature) for more optimization info.

While you are correct that there is no indication of this being a bonus damage by RAW, the name of the class ability suggests it supposed to be constrict damage… now that is only my interpretation but why would they make a class ability that risk worsening your damage? That makes no sense to me at all! So I would imagine the RAI was constrict damage… and that would be the way I would rule - on the basis of mundanes need nice things… and melee damage needs all the bonus it can get imo!

[Gruftzwerg]

While you are correct that there is no indication of this being a bonus damage by RAW, the name of the class ability suggests it supposed to be constrict damage… now that is only my interpretation but why would they make a class ability that risk worsening your damage? That makes no sense to me at all! So I would imagine the RAI was constrict damage… and that would be the way I would rule - on the basis of mundanes need nice things… and melee damage needs all the bonus it can get imo!

I agree that RAI might intend it to be added/extra/bonus dmg.
But even a "constrict damage" tag wouldn't help here by RAW. Because "constrict dmg" != "unarmed strike dmg" != "grapple damage". Thus wouldn't work with Beast Strike anymore.
Imho we really need a keyword to indicate adding/extra/bonus dmg or that it is separate dmg from your regular dmg to make it work by RAW.

As said, rule as you(r DM) like(s) it for actual play.

[ixrisor]

Well I at least thought so… I did so, because Warshaper mentions bear warrior as part of one of its prerequisites under wild shape… that to me at least indicated as such…

Bear warrior does qualify for warshaper, but the bear form is like polymorph, not a type of wild shape. You’d need 5 levels of wild shape ranger to qualify for nature’s warrior, but you can probably use those to help get the BAB required for bear warrior - something like barbarian 1/ranger 5/nature’s warrior 1/bear warrior 1

[ixrisor]

Sorry but this is incorrect imho.

1.
While Serpent's Coil adds a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, the dmg ain't "added". No indicator that is gets added or is otherwise some kind of extra dmg and thus it exchanges your dmg. Due to this, it would make both your unarmed strike and claw dmg irrelevant...


I think that since serpent’s coil happens after the grapple check, it doesn’t need to stack with the unarmed strike damage. Grapple check -> if you win you do unarmed damage -> after you win, do coil damage.

[Max Caysey]

I think that since serpent’s coil happens after the grapple check, it doesn’t need to stack with the unarmed strike damage. Grapple check -> if you win you do unarmed damage -> after you win, do coil damage.

Yeah... that was kind of my rational too.

Also, I think the class ability is sopposed to be an added bonus, but I agree that it is poorly worded. Hence the reason for me asking to begin with!

[Gruftzwerg]

Grapple check -> if you win you do unarmed damage -> after you win, do coil damage.

"if you win you do damage" is also after the check...

So where is the (time) difference to
"after you win, do coil dmg"?

Both are after the grapple check. There is no indicator that the constrict dmg has to calculated/dealt "after" the regular dmg. You need to insert keywords that are not provided by the rule text to come to this conclusion. And if you do "that", we aren't talking about RAW anymore and are trying to guess what RAI is (rules as intended).

As said, if we are talking about RAI or actual table play advices, sure, go for it. I get the intended interpretation of the designers here.
But by RAW (rules as written) they failed to provide precise and correct rules for it. A strict RAW reading doesn't create a 2nd instant of dealing damage and thus Specific Trumps General overrides the general/normal dmg you would do.

[Max Caysey]

"if you win you do damage" is also after the check...

So where is the (time) difference to
"after you win, do coil dmg"?

Both are after the grapple check. There is no indicator that the constrict dmg has to calculated/dealt "after" the regular dmg. You need to insert keywords that are not provided by the rule text to come to this conclusion. And if you do "that", we aren't talking about RAW anymore and are trying to guess what RAI is (rules as intended).

As said, if we are talking about RAI or actual table play advices, sure, go for it. I get the intended interpretation of the designers here.
But by RAW (rules as written) they failed to provide precise and correct rules for it. A strict RAW reading doesn't create a 2nd instant of dealing damage and thus Specific Trumps General overrides the general/normal dmg you would do.

Right... That does make sense. And I think I agree with you on all fronts.

I wonder how a potential DM of mine would look on it... On paper asking for multiple times damage on a grapple might seem a bit harsh, but its really not that crazy, considering what a DMM cleric, conjurer wizard or mailman sorcerer might pull off. Granted he might not allow those either in every campaign, but I usually play with fairly lenient DMs...