What Is D&D?

[Dausuul]

A number of people have been saying that 4E will be "not D&D any more." Others say 3E isn't D&D, either. Still others think it's all D&D and 4E is just another incarnation.

So, my question: What, to you, defines D&D? What are the essential elements that give the game its identity? What would have to be removed/altered for you to say "This isn't D&D any more," and what could be removed/altered without forcing you to that conclusion?

To me, the defining elements of D&D are:

#1: Fighters, rogues, clerics, and wizards. Note that I'm not saying the system has to have classes by those names (rogues were called "thieves" in 2E and earlier, and wizards were called "mages" or "magic-users"), or even classes at all. Nor does it need to use any specific mechanics, such as rolling 1d20 to attack, or Vancian casting. But the system needs to incorporate those archetypes.

#2: An advancement system which carries the PCs through a wide range of power, from "everyman adventurers" at the low end to mythic heroes at the top of the range.

#3: A heroic-fantasy setting, with emphasis on questing/adventuring as the primary activity for the player characters.

#4: A system not inextricably bound to a specific setting; while there may be a "default setting," the system is expected to incorporate both a variety of published settings and homebrewing DMs.

#5: The name "Dungeons and Dragons." :smallwink:

What does everyone else think?

[Azerian Kelimon]

You pretty much summed it up, but missed:

6) Some horribly broken combinations of class abilities, magic items, etc, that makes a character tremendously overpowered.

Also, that thread title is going to draw 300 jokes, you know that?

[Baxbart]

Thats a fair interpretation, definitely - but I do have to point out that I can think of a few other systems that would match 4 out of those 5 'defining elements'. All they lack is the name (GURPS, for example, had a wide power range, allows for 'archetypal' characters and is not bound to any specific setting, but can at the same time be focused on adventuring in a heroic fantasy type way).

[Mr. Friendly]

Joke 1/300:
What is D&D?
A game where you crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of your DM.


A number of people have been saying that 4E will be "not D&D any more." Others say 3E isn't D&D, either. Still others think it's all D&D and 4E is just another incarnation.

So, my question: What, to you, defines D&D? What are the essential elements that give the game its identity? What would have to be removed/altered for you to say "This isn't D&D any more," and what could be removed/altered without forcing you to that conclusion?

From a literal perspective, D&D is any game that is produced by the trademark holders and published under the title "Dungeons and Dragons".

For a more subjective answer, you mostly have it covered.


#1: Fighters, rogues, clerics, and wizards. Note that I'm not saying the system has to have classes by those names (rogues were called "thieves" in 2E and earlier, and wizards were called "mages" or "magic-users"), or even classes at all. Nor does it need to use any specific mechanics, such as rolling 1d20 to attack, or Vancian casting. But the system needs to incorporate those archetypes.

Agree.


#2: An advancement system which carries the PCs through a wide range of power, from "everyman adventurers" at the low end to mythic heroes at the top of the range.

Agree.


#3: A heroic-fantasy setting, with emphasis on questing/adventuring as the primary activity for the player characters.

Agree.


#4: A system not inextricably bound to a specific setting; while there may be a "default setting," the system is expected to incorporate both a variety of published settings and homebrewing DMs.

Agree/Disagree. D&D was published solely for Greyhawk for a very long time with nary a problem. Homebrewers will always homebrew. I don't view this as a requirement to be D&D.


#5: The name "Dungeons and Dragons." :smallwink:

:smallbiggrin:

[Tengu]

6) Some horribly broken combinations of class abilities, magic items, etc, that makes a character tremendously overpowered.


Amen to that. I'd also add:

-Rules that are easy to learn but bad at representing most settings, including the heroic high fantasy world that's supposed to be default DND.

and

-The disability to see any other gaming systems by most of the fans.

[Reinboom]

I see D&D as a combination of things. Firstly, it's the thing that I admired from my brother-in-law (then sister's boyfriend) 9 years ago, the thing my parents refused to let in the house due to the bad connotations with it. The thing behind my Eye of the Beholder and Baldur's Gate games, defining how it played.
AD&D is what me and my friends huddled around 5 years ago, sporting a huge collection of books, resources, and ideas. Mapping to the extreme, improvising, misunderstanding the rules, and just generally having a fun time by playing wrong. A game of humans, elves, dwarfs, magic missile, drow, etc.

Now: D&D is a game system, a system focused on a the 20 sided die, featuring fantastic races in a high fantasy setting. It has a modular progression of classes that I know and recognize. It also has some of the most support of any game system.
There's still a lot of focus on fantastic monsters and a party, and is easily understood by many. Perhaps the biggest part of D&D is the social aspect. For the game itself? It's the name.


-The disability to see any other gaming systems by most of the fans.

Correction: The disability to read any other gaming system by most of the fans.
The fanatical fans clearly see them, they have to in order to flame them. Few of the fanatics read the others, however.

[Duke of URL]

There should definitely be dungeons involved at some point.

And dragons, too.

[Reinboom]

There should definitely be dungeons involved at some point.

And dragons, too.

For all my D&D games (even AD&D)...
the first dungeon I had ever ran, ever, occurred 2 weeks ago.

The first dragon that ever appeared in my games occurred last week.

The most dungeons and the most dragons that came in my game were by players being draconic, or dragon shamans.... or by the name of the product. Interestingly.

[Tengu]

Correction: The disability to read any other gaming system by most of the fans.
The fanatical fans clearly see them, they have to in order to flame them. Few of the fanatics read the others, however.

But most of them don't even flame other systems. They just don't realize they exist, as if DND and other d20 games were the only RPGs ever.

[bignate]

some of my friends in my gaming group already have a dislike for 4E with similar arguments but to me D&D is:

-hanging out with friends and pretenting to be heroic characters on epic adventures.

-it is building your character and their story and watching them grow as a character as well as in strength.

-it is the challenge of battle and the thrill in winning.

-it is defeating monsters, saving the day and finding treasure.

-it is...a brief escape from the real world to a place of imagination where you can be whoever you want and do fantastic things...

none of these things are changed by the rules. the rules are just the underlying base that defines the universe...not the game experience. i believe it is irrelivant what rules you go by...D&D is a state of mind, not a set of rules...


now that being said i dont know how much i like WotC constantly making new editions. they do it under the guise of "improving the rules" but really the only goal in it is to make money. though i must say that while i think the set of rules you are using is irrelevant i personaly have grown to like new editions because i think the new system keeps the game fresh.

i guess i cant fault them for wanting to make money though because it has been their greed that has kept the game around. you long time players may remember that when TSR made the books they were constantly either going out of business, being bought by someone else or on the verge of either. that was because they would make the main books and then sit on them and once every bought them there was not much else to buy.

[Reinboom]

now that being said i dont know how much i like WotC constantly making new editions. they do it under the guise of "improving the rules" but really the only goal in it is to make money. though i must say that while i think the set of rules you are using is irrelevant i personaly have grown to like new editions because i think the new system keeps the game fresh.

Replace that underline word with 'any RPG company'.
Most producing new editions or alternatives at an incredible rate faster than WotC does.

In comparison to D&D in the past, 4e is coming a bit early (about a year to 2 years early), but, it's not all that bad.

[Nerd-o-rama]

D&D is Serious Business.

[Tengu]

D&D is the work of the devil, and your DM will start to teach you real magic if your cleric lives long enough to reach level 8.

[Green Bean]

But most of them don't even flame other systems. They just don't realize they exist, as if DND and other d20 games were the only RPGs ever.

I think a good way of looking at it is using the metaphor of keyboards. Most folks learn to type using Qwerty, even though technically it isn't the most efficient method of doing so. And when a new, better system comes along, only a minority of people switch because most will feel that the hassles the change corrects aren't major enough to warrant learning a new system.


D&D is the work of the devil, and your DM will start to teach you real magic if your cleric lives long enough to reach level 8.

Blackleaf! NOOOOO!

[Dallas-Dakota]

DnD is a game where you use 20-sided dices to make decisions starting in a tavern where you get sent out to slay an evil dragon that has taken up the nearest dungeon....

The basics of DnD:smallbiggrin:

Ofcourse I dont like my brother who kinda ruins the game sometimes by over-power gaming(also known as min-maxing)....

DnD is a mix of using devices called dices with an mix of 'hack 'n slash' and Roleplaying....

[Illiterate Scribe]

D&D is Serious Business.

What is D&D? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk, have at you!

[ZekeArgo]

What is D&D? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk, have at you!

MANKIND ILL NEEDS A SAVIOR SUCH AS YOU!

[Azerian Kelimon]

This thread's won. TWO SoTN quotes in one thread? It's done.

[kjones]

D&D is about two intrinsically inter-related aspects:

1. Killing things
2. Taking their stuff

Everything else is just extra.

[tainsouvra]

D&D is a game that uses the corresponding trademark and published materials. That's all, everything else tacked on--the homebrews, the houserules, the drama, anything--is just dressing.

The simple answer that the various arguing factions (edition drama queens? :smalleek:) probably don't like is that there is more than one D&D. 3rd edition and 4th edition are entirely separate games, and one of them becoming an official D&D doesn't make the other stop being an official D&D.

I'm looking forward to seeing 4th edition, and will probably play it. I probably won't stop playing 3rd edition entirely--no more than I'd stop playing World of Darkness because 4th edition D&D came out. You can play more than one game, after all.

[Dean Fellithor]

*Loads the bullets into his gun.*

"wait a second..."

*reads the post.*

"Thank the gods he was talking about 'what people define as the real D'n'D'."

seriously, you had me worried for a moment there.

well, in my mind I believe that 2nd edition and 3rd edition are the real D'n'D, 1st edition was crap because Elf and Dwarf were freaking classes! :mad: , but without it we would never have what we have today... and 3.5 is just another set of 3.0 handbooks to me... but Wizards of the Coast have lost me at 4 ed...

DO NOT WANT

[Keld Denar]

*Loads the bullets into his gun.*

"wait a second..."

*reads the post.*

"Thank the gods he was talking about 'what people define as the real D'n'D'."

seriously, you had me worried for a moment there.

well, in my mind I believe that 2nd edition and 3rd edition are the real D'n'D, 1st edition was crap because Elf and Dwarf were freaking classes! :mad: , but without it we would never have what we have today... and 3.5 is just another set of 3.0 handbooks to me... but Wizards of the Coast have lost me at 4 ed...

DO NOT WANT

Hey! Dean is back!

Pssst! Hate to break it to ya, buddy, but while Elf was a class, Dwarf never was. And that's not 1st ed you are talking about, thats D&D. D&D came first, then came AD&D 1st Ed.

[Matthew]

In 1e AD&D Elves and Dwarves were not classes. You're thinking of Basic Dungeons & Dragons. Dwarves certainly were a Class in Basic, as were Halflings/Hobbits.

[Illiterate Scribe]

*Loads the bullets into his gun.*

"wait a second..."

*reads the post.*

"Thank the gods he was talking about 'what people define as the real D'n'D'."

seriously, you had me worried for a moment there.

well, in my mind I believe that 2nd edition and 3rd edition are the real D'n'D, 1st edition was crap because Elf and Dwarf were freaking classes! :mad: , but without it we would never have what we have today... and 3.5 is just another set of 3.0 handbooks to me... but Wizards of the Coast have lost me at 4 ed...

DO NOT WANT

Dean is back! :smallsmile:

Elf = class? lolwut? What sort of abilities does that have.

[Xocelot]

To me, D&D is three things
1. Pouring over the books for hours trying to find the perfect build.
2. Watching my "perfect" build get torn apart.
3. Noting the faults of my failed build repeating the steps.

[Dean Fellithor]

Dean is back! :smallsmile:

Elf = class? lolwut? What sort of abilities does that have.

I'm back, but I'm also in Holiday mode, school ended on Thursday for me.

"oooooohhhhhhhhyeaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh......"

*kicks back and realizes that his eyes hurt from the extra gaming shifts he has taken up.*

I should really start sleeping again...nah, forget that, I've got myself a Nintendo Wii to search the house for...

*Evil laugh*
*applies water to eyes*

yeah, I'm not exactly sure what the Elf classes abilities were, this is word from mouth stuff and a little bit of research...

[Matthew]

Hmmn. Greyhawk was a big part of D&D for me. In some regards the official settings are themselves representative of D&D.

The Elf was a kind of Fighter/Mage. Just download Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm) and all will be made clear to you.

[Dausuul]

Thats a fair interpretation, definitely - but I do have to point out that I can think of a few other systems that would match 4 out of those 5 'defining elements'. All they lack is the name (GURPS, for example, had a wide power range, allows for 'archetypal' characters and is not bound to any specific setting, but can at the same time be focused on adventuring in a heroic fantasy type way).

The reason I included the name was to rule out the various D&D clones (HackMaster, Tunnels and Trolls, et cetera), since I can't imagine any other way to rule them out without ruling out at least one edition of D&D itself. Anyway, if it ain't called D&D any more, it ain't D&D in my book, though it is permissible to tack on descriptors like "Advanced" and "Classic."

As for GURPS: It's true that you can build the "archetypal" characters in GURPS, but that's because you can build virtually any character in GURPS. What I meant was that those archetypes emerge naturally from the game system (which they do not in GURPS--for one thing, wizards and clerics are essentially identical). And while GURPS can be focussed on heroic adventuring in a fantasy setting, the system is not built around that.


Dean is back! :smallsmile:

Elf = class? lolwut? What sort of abilities does that have.

Oh, the elf class was quite simple to understand, really. You gave them fighter combat stats and magic-user casting, and allowed them to cast in full armor (this was way before the concept of arcane spell failure chance). Then, to keep things balanced, you took the fighter XP table and the magic-user XP table and added them to each other; so where it took the fighter 1500 XP to reach level 2, and the magic-user 2500, it took the elf 4000.

And then you arbitrarily hacked off the XP table past level 10 and made up some weird system involving letters (A, B, C, et cetera) for advancing past that point. Okay, so that part was less simple.

At 1st level, being an elf rocked. It became less appealing as you advanced, and as soon as you got past 10th, it plunged into an abyss of suck.

At least that's how it worked in the Classic system (Basic/Expert/Companion/Master). That was also the system that had Dwarf and Halfling classes. Possibly all this was different in the original D&D.


Joke 1/300:
What is D&D?
A game where you crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of your DM.

Hee. I'm hanging onto that one. :smallsmile:

[Devils_Advocate]

My response to claims that 4th or 3rd Edition is "not D&D". (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3076662#post3076662)

I think that that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

[EvilJames]

#5: The name "Dungeons and Dragons." :smallwink:



that's not really good enough for me if someone bought the rights to D&D and then started selling rocks labeled D&D, it wouldn't make it D&D

For the most part defining it is like defining the word "good" you know what it is but you can't properly put it in words

for me at least D&D is a game that was published by TSR out of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin

and well D&D is dead:smallfrown:

[Deepblue706]

I'd define D&D as: A quick and easy-to-learn fantasy role-playing game with an extreme emphasis on a highly cinematic experience.

[Kiero]

Frankly, I think it beggars belief for anyone to say 4th edition is "not D&D", when 3rd edition bears little resemblance to 2nd, which is itself a bit of a development on 1st.

[Dausuul]

that's not really good enough for me if someone bought the rights to D&D and then started selling rocks labeled D&D, it wouldn't make it D&D

That's why I included four other requirements, too.

[StickMan]

Its the name of a popular paper based role playing game owned by Wizards of the Coast.