Levitate over a cliff, fall or gently float down? Levitate an object, drag it down?

[Mastikator]

The levitate spell specifies three important things for my questions.

1) The creature or object may not weigh more than 500 lbs
2) Levitate can at most increase the altitude to 20f
3) When the spell ends and the creature or object is still aloft it will gently float down.

In scenario A we build a raft that weighs 100lbs, put a 100lbs wizard on it. The wizard casts levitate on the raft, the raft ought to levitate since the combined weight is still < 500lbs. OK so the barbarian shoves the levitating raft over a sheer 1000f cliff, the ground is now 1000f down, so the raft is levitating 980f more than it should be able to.

Does the raft fall down until it hits 20 and then gently fall down?
Does the raft stay where it is because the wizard hasn't moved up or down?
Does the raft gently float down until it is 20f above ground?



In scenario B we build the same raft, the wizard climbs up. This time the 350lbs barbarian jumps onto the raft while it is aloft. Now levitate is carrying 550lbs, 50 more than it can carry.

Does the spell end since the maximum lift capacity has been exceeded?
a) if it ends, does it gently float down as if it had ended normally?
b) if it ends, does it crash down as if the spell was never cast?
Does the spell go on as per usual since the raft itself has not increased in weight?



In scenario C we combine scenario A and B, we build a raft, put the wizard on it. Push it over the cliff and then the barbarian jumps on top on the raft.

Does the raft gently float down with the wizard and barbarian on it?
Does the raft stay where it is?
a) and if the wizard ends concentration, does it now gently float down or crash down?
Does the raft crash down, killing the wizard and inconveniencing the barbarian?


Edit-

Is there any RAW correct answer, and how would you as a DM adjudicate?

[nickl_2000]

The levitate spell specifies three important things for my questions.

1) The creature or object may not weigh more than 500 lbs
2) Levitate can at most increase the altitude to 20f
3) When the spell ends and the creature or object is still aloft it will gently float down.

In scenario A we build a raft that weighs 100lbs, put a 100lbs wizard on it. The wizard casts levitate on the raft, the raft ought to levitate since the combined weight is still < 500lbs. OK so the barbarian shoves the levitating raft over a sheer 1000f cliff, the ground is now 1000f down, so the raft is levitating 980f more than it should be able to.

Does the raft fall down until it hits 20 and then gently fall down?
Does the raft stay where it is because the wizard hasn't moved up or down?
Does the raft gently float down until it is 20f above ground?




Technically altitude is based off of sea level not the ground. So, you didn't change your altitude pushing it over the cliff and therefore it just stays at the same level until the wizard changes it.



In scenario B we build the same raft, the wizard climbs up. This time the 350lbs barbarian jumps onto the raft while it is aloft. Now levitate is carrying 550lbs, 50 more than it can carry.

Does the spell end since the maximum lift capacity has been exceeded?
a) if it ends, does it gently float down as if it had ended normally?
b) if it ends, does it crash down as if the spell was never cast?
Does the spell go on as per usual since the raft itself has not increased in weight?



The raft falls at a normal falling speed to the ground. The spell is still active, but it doesn't have the strength to hold it up and therefore it falls. Now if in the process of the raft falls the 100lb Wizard falls out of the raft (leaving it at 450lbs weight), it instantly comes to a stop and levitates as per normal with the spell.



In scenario C we combine scenario A and B, we build a raft, put the wizard on it. Push it over the cliff and then the barbarian jumps on top on the raft.

Does the raft gently float down with the wizard and barbarian on it?
Does the raft stay where it is?
a) and if the wizard ends concentration, does it now gently float down or crash down?
Does the raft crash down, killing the wizard and inconveniencing the barbarian?


The weight is over 500lbs, therefore falling and crashing. If the wizard ends concentration it falls at the normal falling speed, I would rule as a DM if the barbarian fell out, it would start falling at a slow speed because now the spell rules are being followed.




Hopefully those response make sense. Effectively if the weight rules are being met, the raft stays up or falls slowly. If the weight rules are not being met it crashes hard and makes a Wizard pancake.

[Mastikator]

Technically altitude is based off of sea level not the ground. So, you didn't change your altitude pushing it over the cliff and therefore it just stays at the same level until the wizard changes it.

The raft falls at a normal falling speed to the ground. The spell is still active, but it doesn't have the strength to hold it up and therefore it falls. Now if in the process of the raft falls the 100lb Wizard falls out of the raft (leaving it at 450lbs weight), it instantly comes to a stop and levitates as per normal with the spell.

The weight is over 500lbs, therefore falling and crashing. If the wizard ends concentration it falls at the normal falling speed, I would rule as a DM if the barbarian fell out, it would start falling at a slow speed because now the spell rules are being followed.

Hopefully those response make sense. Effectively if the weight rules are being met, the raft stays up or falls slowly. If the weight rules are not being met it crashes hard and makes a Wizard pancake.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/levitate
Um? The spell makes no mention of sea level.

A creature or object rises vertically, up to 20 feet. The relation is not to the sea, the relation is either the original level of the ground OR the current level of the ground (if it is pushed to a different space where the ground is up or down).

"When the spell ends, the target floats gently to the ground if it is still aloft."
If the wizard dies the spell ends, if it is 20 feet up and has not been moved it should float gently to the ground. It should only possibly fall if it is pushed to a new relative or absolute altitude, or if weight is added to it.

In scenario C where the wizard dies, the raft will reach 20 feet and then gently float down next to the splatted wizard remains.

[nickl_2000]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/levitate
Um? The spell makes no mention of sea level.

A creature or object rises vertically, up to 20 feet. The relation is not to the sea, the relation is either the original level of the ground OR the current level of the ground (if it is pushed to a different space where the ground is up or down).



No, but when you talk about altitude in general it is in relation to sea level, not the level of the ground. I would argue that the intent is that it's sea level based instead of ground based for the overall 20 feet since they don't specifically say that you move down when the distance from the ground changes (which Tensor's Floating Disk does specifically say).

[GloatingSwine]

No, but when you talk about altitude in general it is in relation to sea level, not the level of the ground. I would argue that the intent is that it's sea level based instead of ground based for the overall 20 feet since they don't specifically say that you move down when the distance from the ground changes (which Tensor's Floating Disk does specifically say).

In D&D you might be casting this in places where the concepts of "sea" and "level" are both a bit wobbly.

For everyone's sanity, stick to it being relative to the surface it was on before the spell was cast.

The spell seems to indicate that the object no longer cares how distant the floor is once it is cast (it can be moved up or down 10' per turn, it does not hold at 20' above the surface nor is that its altitude ceiling), so if it were pushed out over a 1000' cliff you are now 1020 feet above ground and you'd better start moving it down fast, you can move it 100' per minute based on 6 second rounds and you've got ten minutes. (Edit: Actually you can move it 20'/turn or 200'/minute, there's less rush)

(I would say that the spell ends if the weight of the raft + contents exceeds 500lb, but if it is going to fall a long way I might ask for a strength check to hang on to it because it isn't necessarily staying level)

[Mastikator]

No, but when you talk about altitude in general it is in relation to sea level, not the level of the ground. I would argue that the intent is that it's sea level based instead of ground based for the overall 20 feet since they don't specifically say that you move down when the distance from the ground changes (which Tensor's Floating Disk does specifically say).

Let's say for the sake of argument the scenarios take place in an infinite flat demiplane with two levels and a sheer cliff that separate them. 1000 feet difference. Gravity is down. There is no sea. Physics is the same as material plane.

[GloatingSwine]

Let's say for the sake of argument the scenarios take place in an infinite flat demiplane with two levels and a sheer cliff that separate them. 1000 feet difference. Gravity is down. There is no sea. Physics is the same as material plane.

The raft stays level with where the spell levitated it to until the wizard uses their turn to move it up to 20' up or down or the spell ends. (RAW)

The spell ends if the weight exceeds 500lb (my ruling)

The raft floats down slowly when the spell ends (RAW)

People on the raft have to make a strength check to hold on because the weight on it is uneven and it is no longer being properly held by the spell (my ruling)

[JackPhoenix]

2) Levitate can at most increase the altitude to 20f

Nope. You can levitate the target up to 20' when you cast the spell, and then move the target up to 20' up or down with every action, but there's no limit on maximum altitude. There's different limitation in that the target must be within 60' of the caster, but otherwise, nothing prevents you from using the entirel 10-minute duration to rise 2000' above the ground.

[Samayu]

The spell ends if the weight exceeds 500lb (my ruling)

It is not a stretch to interpret "The spell can levitate a target that weighs up to 500 pounds." as such. It is not worded to imply that the weight limit applies only to the time of casting.

Whether it's elevation above the ground, above sea level or at a point in space, there is nothing in the spell description that mentions elevation, except the initial, "rises 20 feet".

Off topic, I think it's lame that the caster can't move the target in any direction other than vertically. It's only one level lower than Fly, but the target can't control its own movement, and the Fly speed is 60, compared to the Levitate speed of 20.

[No brains]

Would it be possible to build some bizarre "Munchausen's parachute" out of a levitate spell if exceeding 500lbs of load does not end the spell?

1. Levitate an object that is the difference between your weight and 501 lbs.

2. Push object over precipice.

3. Repeatedly bounce on object, causing multiple micro-falls that deal less damage than the total fall off the precipice.

Imagine the looney tunes view of seeing someone rappel down a cliff on a floating trampoline.

[GloatingSwine]

The spell doesn't come back into force if the weight dips back under 500lb.

But you could just use the object as an elevator because you can move it up or down on your turn.

[Mastikator]

I think the tricky part is the last line, when the spell ends the target will gently fall down if it is aloft. There's no restriction on things clinging to the target causing it to exceed 500lbs. RAW I think 501lbs should still float down gently

[nickl_2000]

The spell doesn't come back into force if the weight dips back under 500lb.


Why not? The spell only says that "The spell can levitate a target that weighs up to 500 pounds." It doesn't say anything about ending if it tries to lift over 500lbs.

If someone get thrown a weight that puts the over the 500lb threshold, then the spell can't lift it anymore not that it's dispelled.


I see this the same as if someone casts darkvision on themselves and then step into an anti-magic field. While in the field the magic is suppressed and the PC doesn't have darkvision. Once they step out of the field, they get it back.

[Herbert_W]

What's this nonsense about a total weight limit of 500 pounds?

The spell says that it can levitate a target weighing 500 pounds. It says absolutely nothing about the total weight of other creatures or objects attached to it. By RAW, their weight does not count against the 500 pound limit unless they are part of the target. You could levitate a 499 pound raft and build a castle on top of it and it would still float, just so long as the weight of the castle doesn't break the raft.

I'll grant that this reading of the spell doesn't accord with our understanding of real-world physics. In the real world, whenever there's a weight limit associated with anything that holds something aloft, that weight limit is due to lifting power or structural strength and therefore applies to the total weight hoisted. What we are discussing, however, is magic. Real-world physics does not apply.

I'll also grant that this reading may be contrary to RAI, kinda feels like an exploit, and may not fly (pun intended) at every table. It is, however, RAW - and I have to assume that we're talking about RAW here, becasue otherwise there's not much to say beyond "ask your DM."

[nickl_2000]

RAW - and I have to assume that we're talking about RAW here, becasue otherwise there's not much to say beyond "ask your DM."

"ask your dm" being the true answer has never stopped us from debating before, why should it stop us now :smallbiggrin:

[Keravath]

No, but when you talk about altitude in general it is in relation to sea level, not the level of the ground. I would argue that the intent is that it's sea level based instead of ground based for the overall 20 feet since they don't specifically say that you move down when the distance from the ground changes (which Tensor's Floating Disk does specifically say).

Interesting, so if I am on a hill that is 20' or higher above sea level then levitate does nothing?

I'd suggest that the intent is the object/creature rises to 20' above the local terrain they are standing on - not 20' above sea level since that makes the spell useful only when on low lying terrain relative to the sea.

The spell also specifically includes the ability to move sideways which means that the height above the ground could be expected to change.

In addition, the spell also states that the target can move by pulling or pushing against a fixed object. The spell does not say that whatever is being levitated can be moved by someone else. So, it might not even be possible to push a levitating object over a cliff - only the object could do that. A levitating creature could push itself along some object over a cliff however.

[nickl_2000]

Interesting, so if I am on a hill that is 20' or higher above sea level then levitate does nothing?

Not at all, the spell says "One creature or object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically, up to 20 feet."

You rise vertically 20 ft, not that you are rising to an altitude of 20ft. So, if you are starting at a hypothetical altitude of 1000ft due to being on a mountain, you are moved to an overall altitude of 1020ft. For the sake of the casting of the spell it is relative to the ground you are currently on.




The spell also specifically includes the ability to move sideways which means that the height above the ground could be expected to change.

Where? The only thing I see about moving is "The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing" and "If you are the target, you can move up or down as part of your move." Neither of these specify sideways at all.

Yes, the height above the ground can be expected to change, that is built into the spell that the person could "climb" along the wall, or the caster can move them up or down 20ft as an action on each turn.

[Chronos]

If you're pushing or pulling against something that would let you move sideways, then you move sideways. Why else would they have included ceilings in that?

[BaronCorvo]

One creature or loose object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically, up to 20 feet, and remains suspended there for the duration.

(emphasis added)

If you push the raft off a cliff, nothing happens. RAW, it remains suspended up to 20 feet above its starting position, unless it is moved according to the rules given for how it can move:


The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing. You can change the target’s altitude by up to 20 feet in either direction on your turn. If you are the target, you can move up or down as part of your move.

(emphasis added)

RAW, falling off a cliff is not possible. And since the caster ("you") can move it vertically 20' per round, over a duration of 10 minutes it can be as much as 2000' above its starting point, so there's no support for the argument that it can't continue to levitate if the ground drops out.

Sideways movement is possible while climbing so therefore sideways movement is possible while levitating, as long as the target has a surface to push against.

[BaronCorvo]

The target can only move by pushing against a fixed object or surface, in any appropriate direction (ie, limited by the available surfaces and objects). The caster can move the target vertically by 20 feet up or down. If the caster is also the target they can do either.

[BaronCorvo]

It's not clear what happens if the target weight starts out less than 500 lbs and then changes to more than 500 lbs, but I would rule that the target "floats gently to the ground" until the weight drops back below 500 lbs or the spell ends. I don't see any reason why a wizard on a raft couldn't carry a barbarian to the bottom of the cliff and then float back up after the barbarian disembarks, as long as they're still concentrating on the spell. But that's a judgment call, ruling that the spell would end if the weight limit is exceeded doesn't violate anything in the spell description.

OTOH it is perfectly clear what happens if the caster loses concentration: the spell ends and the target floats gently to the ground. RAW.