W.O.I.N. Better Than D20 Modern?

[Tevo77777]

So apparently I'm the crazy D20 Modern / D20 Modern Port/Replacement Guy. I haven't fully read the rulebooks, but I am crazy and I wanna talk about this system only I own... welp...

Whats Old Is New

First impressions.

So I had months ago flipped to the equipment section and saw the firearms were exactly the same as D20 Modern, as in the same firearms were listed. They got some things right and some things wrong, one step forward and one step back.

There is a NOW book, a NEW book, and an OLD book..... Just like D20 Modern

The description in the first few pages of the NOW book sounds like D20 Modern.

EN Publishing published some good supplement stuff for D20 Modern. Selling a "fixed" version of the system is logical and a way to sell more supplements after D20 Modern was "dead".

Second impressions
Attributes
Strength, Agility, Endurance, Intuition, Logic, Willpower, Charisma, Luck, and Chi,

Some of these line up with D20 and appear to be new names to avoid being sued or something... But Wisdom is split into two ability scores? Luck is in Fallout...... Chi?

D6.... The system isn't D20, its 3D6. I had thought this was to avoid being sued as well, but I am not sure now.

Oh and this system was crowdfunded past a lot of its goals.

"Dice Pool. A dice pool is the handful of dice you roll when making an attribute check. It can be formed in various ways (for example, you might add dice because of your character’s attributes, skills, or equipment) and is limited in size by your character’s grade."

Woah. D20 Modern was +4 this and -4 that.... 5e is Advantage and Disadvantage. This is a major major change.

Current thoughts

Why is the gear the same as a system published like 18 years prior? A lot of these guns are ancient now.

EDIT: The Willpower Attribute is just so they can do Wisdom Saves without having Saves. Chi starts at 0. Looks more like D20 Modern now.

EDIT: PISTOLS IS A SKILL?!?!?

[Tevo77777]

Occupations / Backgrounds

They have a number of years they take, they give stat boosts. This matches later D20 systems? Instead of having favored skills or giving you one or more skills against your will, it lets you pick from a small menu.

EDIT: So these are called "Origins" and they are just your upbringing. Huh.

EDIT: There are FOUR more careers afterward to make a "lifepath" system?

Skills
"running, jumping, climbing,"

These are all seperate skills? WTF? This is worse than D20 Modern! There was an interview of the D20 Modern people months ago and they talked about wanting to consolidate the Hide/Move Silently skills and the Spot/Listen skills.

Which was Pathfinder's and 5Es idea as well.

Who asked for MORE skills?

[Anonymouswizard]

I own new, and system-wise it's mostly fine. It's a standard d6 dice pool system (total, not success counting), with the twist that scores do not correlate to dice in a linear way. The Grade and lifepath character creation system, and the way it does psychic powers is fine. However it has one major flaw that means it never leaves my shelf.

It uses the wrong units.

It uses bloody imperial units in a science fiction game. Where most people I know are scientists and engineers, who'll play scientists and engineers, and every last one of them loves SI and hates Imperial, to the point that when we played a Warhammer game the inch was declared to be Chaos taint. But it uses bloody Imperial units, all because it feels like it has to be based on the bloody five foot step.

No other science fiction game I own is so backward, except maybe Wrath & Glory (although I think that interited SI ranges and the like from the earlier games). Even GURPS, as detail obsessed as it is, understands that a yard and a metre are roughly equal.

1/10 would not buy again (might pick up OLD some day, but I own a lot of fantasy I'd like to play before I do something D&D based again).

TLDR: the SI system exists.

[Tevo77777]

Holding for later I guess

[Tevo77777]

I own new, and system-wise it's mostly fine. It's a standard d6 dice pool system (total, not success counting), with the twist that scores do not correlate to dice in a linear way. The Grade and lifepath character creation system, and the way it does psychic powers is fine. However it has one major flaw that means it never leaves my shelf.

It uses the wrong units.

It uses bloody imperial units in a science fiction game. Where most people I know are scientists and engineers, who'll play scientists and engineers, and every last one of them loves SI and hates Imperial, to the point that when we played a Warhammer game the inch was declared to be Chaos taint. But it uses bloody Imperial units, all because it feels like it has to be based on the bloody five foot step.

No other science fiction game I own is so backward, except maybe Wrath & Glory (although I think that interited SI ranges and the like from the earlier games). Even GURPS, as detail obsessed as it is, understands that a yard and a metre are roughly equal.

1/10 would not buy again (might pick up OLD some day, but I own a lot of fantasy I'd like to play before I do something D&D based again).

TLDR: the SI system exists.

Wouldn't it be messy to convert 5 feet to 1.5 meters? I think 1 meter or 2 meters would be two big or small.

What does GURPS do for its grids?

[Anonymouswizard]

Wouldn't it be messy to convert 5 feet to 1.5 meters? I think 1 meter or 2 meters would be two big or small.

What does GURPS do for its grids?

The yard is, as I repeat, approximately 1m. This makes it vastly superior to 1.67 yards.

GURPS, like The Fantasy Trip before it, assumes any battlemats will be a 1" hex grid, with a rough scale of 1''=1 yard.

[Tevo77777]

It uses the wrong units.

It uses bloody imperial units in a science fiction game. Where most people I know are scientists and engineers, who'll play scientists and engineers, and every last one of them loves SI and hates Imperial, to the point that when we played a Warhammer game the inch was declared to be Chaos taint. But it uses bloody Imperial units, all because it feels like it has to be based on the bloody five foot step.

No other science fiction game I own is so backward, except maybe Wrath & Glory (although I think that interited SI ranges and the like from the earlier games). Even GURPS, as detail obsessed as it is, understands that a yard and a metre are roughly equal.

1/10 would not buy again (might pick up OLD some day, but I own a lot of fantasy I'd like to play before I do something D&D based again).

TLDR: the SI system exists.

WTF, the range increment of a .50 cal sniper rifle is 24 feet? The range numbers alone almost singlehandedly crash the system into the ground. This is way worse than D20 Modern.

-

The Cogent system uses Meters I think... Pretty useful as the range of Handguns is around 50 meters, SMGs 200 meters, AKs 400 meters, and NATO weapons reach out to 600 meters.

[KorvinStarmast]

EDIT: PISTOLS IS A SKILL?!?!?
Yeah, why not?
I qualified expert in Pistol and Rifle, they are IME/IMO/IMX related but different skills.

[Tevo77777]

Yeah, why not?
I qualified expert in Pistol and Rifle, they are IME/IMO/IMX related but different skills.

I straight up forgot the time that I spent playing CoC, where pistols were a skill and weapon proficiencies were not a thing.

In that few hours, this design decision seemed insane.

The trash ranges and having .357 do more damage (Not the same) as 5.56 is pure insano. So is having the AUG do more damage and not have a description like all the other guns?

[KorvinStarmast]

I straight up forgot the time that I spent playing CoC, where pistols were a skill and weapon proficiencies were not a thing.

In that few hours, this design decision seemed insane.

The trash ranges and having .357 do more damage (Not the same) as 5.56 is pure insano. So is having the AUG do more damage and not have a description like all the other guns?A jacketed hollow point .357 mag round, or a hydroshock, can tear someone up. The 5.56 is nasty due to how it tumbles, though.

[Tevo77777]

A jacketed hollow point .357 mag round, or a hydroshock, can tear someone up. The 5.56 is nasty due to how it tumbles, though.

Hallow points in the system are a separate thing and they double damage.

Hydroshocks are kinda trash, I think the later generation ones were okay.

[Gnoman]

WTF, the range increment of a .50 cal sniper rifle is 24 feet? The range numbers alone almost singlehandedly crash the system into the ground. This is way worse than D20 Modern.

-

The Cogent system uses Meters I think... Pretty useful as the range of Handguns is around 50 meters, SMGs 200 meters, AKs 400 meters, and NATO weapons reach out to 600 meters.

What does range increment mean in this system? In D20 Modern, it is where accuracy penalties activate, for which 24 isn't great but not absurd for a rifle over iron sights. D20M also has a maximum range of 10 increments, which is absurd even with the much larger increments from D20M - it puts the maximum possible range of a Colt Python at 400 feet. Aiming a handgun at that range is extremely difficult, but a lucky hit is not impossible even if nothing but a "golden BB" will do, and even a .22LR is dangerous out to a mile or more.


A jacketed hollow point .357 mag round, or a hydroshock, can tear someone up. The 5.56 is nasty due to how it tumbles, though.

Both are dangerous, but there is a significant difference in power. Going to use GURPS as a benchmark because it is easier to draw a comparison, and their detail-obsessed methodology gets things pretty close to reality. For basic FMJ ammo, GURPS puts the damage from a Colt Python at 3d6 piercing (no damage mod), while 5.56 from a M16A1 is statted at 5d6 piercing (no damage mod). Or, for some reference, a .357 is akin to being stabbed with a spear by an extremely strong barbarian, while a 5.56 is more like being stabbed with a spear by a Cloud Giant.

[Tevo77777]

What does range increment mean in this system? In D20 Modern, it is where accuracy penalties activate, for which 24 isn't great but not absurd for a rifle over iron sights. D20M also has a maximum range of 10 increments, which is absurd even with the much larger increments from D20M - it puts the maximum possible range of a Colt Python at 400 feet. Aiming a handgun at that range is extremely difficult, but a lucky hit is not impossible even if nothing but a "golden BB" will do, and even a .22LR is dangerous out to a mile or more.


"Range. In the case of ranged weapons, this indicates a range increment. For each range increment, an attacker takes a 1d6 penalty to his attack roll. Unless otherwise noted, weapons can be used out to five range increments, although an attacker will suffer a –4d6 penalty to attack rolls at that range."

So the max range of an M16.....is 80 feet. The most powerful range of the longest rang range weapon...is 120 feet.

Seems you move very slowly though.

Speed
You need to determine your regular Speed, and your Climb speed. Note that this process also applies to Swim and other forms of movement. Your Speed is equal to the size of your STR dice pool plus your AGI dice pool. You may also add your running dice pool if you have that skill.



Both are dangerous, but there is a significant difference in power. Going to use GURPS as a benchmark because it is easier to draw a comparison, and their detail-obsessed methodology gets things pretty close to reality. For basic FMJ ammo, GURPS puts the damage from a Colt Python at 3d6 piercing (no damage mod), while 5.56 from a M16A1 is statted at 5d6 piercing (no damage mod). Or, for some reference, a .357 is akin to being stabbed with a spear by an extremely strong barbarian, while a 5.56 is more like being stabbed with a spear by a Cloud Giant.

I put my .357 at 2d6+3, which averages out to 10. 5.56 is 5d4 (Likely +2), which averages out to 12.5 (14.5)

These numbers are based on the assumptions of several different RPGs. They're not perfect, but they are better than D20 Modern.

Cyberpunk 2020, puts these cartridges at 2d6+3 and 5d6....Hmmm adjusting the numbers to be more like that would require me to dismantle a ton of math.... So not going to do it.

[Anonymouswizard]

I straight up forgot the time that I spent playing CoC, where pistols were a skill and weapon proficiencies were not a thing.

In that few hours, this design decision seemed insane.

Not counting pdfs, I think I own like 40-50 games? Of those the vast majority have weapons be skills, the only ones that use some kind of 'weapon proficiency' are D&D, direct derivatives (like OSR games and Fantasy AGE), and Ryuutama. Combat skill being a skill is the standard design paradigm outside of D&D (as is point buy chargen).

Most systems, for better or worse, don't assume that every PC is a trained combatant. Sometimes when building a PC I don't have the resources to get combat skills, or I can only spare a point or two (darn you Priority chargen!). When that happens I tend to end up huddled in a corner trying to give other PCs some kind of advantage, or throwing around magical fire if I built a combat mage. It does tend to be magicians and hackers who can't afford a single combat skill, a face or thief will tend to have a few free points for Pistols or Rifles or Throwing Shoes or something.

Also yeah, range increments are often laughable. If you're not doing auto hits on a perfect roll you might as well just escalate penalties until you hit infinity.

[Gnoman]

A variable range penalty‽ That's an incredibly dumb idea!

Though if you replace feet with yards, and put the cap back at 10, you get something vaguely useable.

[Anonymouswizard]

A variable range penalty‽ That's an incredibly dumb idea!

Though if you replace feet with yards, and put the cap back at 10, you get something vaguely useable.

To clarify rolls on WOIN are 'roll Xd6 and sum' rather than 'roll and add your bonus'. A -1d6 penalty is likely supposed to be removing a die from your pool. In a dice pool system it can actually make things easier to remove dice rather than apply static penalties.

IIRC beginning characters in WOIN will be looking at these to four dice in their skills, so even a good shot likely doesn't want to be taking a two die penalty.

[Gnoman]

That does make sense - I wasn't mentally connecting that with the earlier mention that it is a die pool.

[Cactus]

Hi. I've run games of EN Publishing's Judge Dredd and Strontium Dog, which both use the W.O.I.N. system. I think you're all overlooking that distances are measured in 5' squares (I'm a Brit brougt up on Warhammer and I find the choice of units baffling and bizarre). So all those movement speeds and weapon ranges are 5 times what you think.

[Tevo77777]

To clarify rolls on WOIN are 'roll Xd6 and sum' rather than 'roll and add your bonus'. A -1d6 penalty is likely supposed to be removing a die from your pool. In a dice pool system it can actually make things easier to remove dice rather than apply static penalties.

IIRC beginning characters in WOIN will be looking at these to four dice in their skills, so even a good shot likely doesn't want to be taking a two die penalty.

Reminds me of Cogent. Starter characters hae 3 dice in everything and likely have one point in an ability score (There are three) or a weapon skill.


Hi. I've run games of EN Publishing's Judge Dredd and Strontium Dog, which both use the W.O.I.N. system. I think you're all overlooking that distances are measured in 5' squares (I'm a Brit brougt up on Warhammer and I find the choice of units baffling and bizarre). So all those movement speeds and weapon ranges are 5 times what you think.

Where does it say that? I had tried control f'ing the word range and even posted the descript.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hi. I've run games of EN Publishing's Judge Dredd and Strontium Dog, which both use the W.O.I.N. system. I think you're all overlooking that distances are measured in 5' squares (I'm a Brit brougt up on Warhammer and I find the choice of units baffling and bizarre). So all those movement speeds and weapon ranges are 5 times what you think.

I grew up on Warhammer and the LotR minis game, so I'm used to inches being used to represent larger distances. It's also pretty much the only time I've used Imperial for like two decades (maybe one? My dad owns old cookbooks I might have used in my late teens).


Reminds me of Cogent. Starter characters hae 3 dice in everything and likely have one point in an ability score (There are three) or a weapon skill.

As somebody familiar with Chronicles of Darkness and Shadowrun, where beginning PCs are throwing 8-12 dice at their specialties, it feels weirdly low to me. Sure they're success counting systems, but starting PCs not being allowed to roll more than five dice feels weird and limiting. Of course it partially feels weird because it's a strict cap, not even bonuses can make you too awesome. None of the rest of the systems mesh at all, but whenever I think 'dice pool' my mind goes to CofD.

WOIN is a strange game, but honestly it makes it pretty easy to work out who it's for. It's for people who want tactical D&D style play, but want it to be a little bit freer in terms of character building. Which honestly I totally get, it's not my thing but I'm sure there's people who want that. Grade and Careers make it effectively class and level based, but in a less restrictive way.

And you know what? I like Lifepath character creation, it's why I might pick up OLD (might even splash out for colour). WOIN isn't even a bad game mechanically, I just can't see much reason to run NEW over CofD*.

Hell, I can't see a reason right now as to why I'd run OLD over one of the CtL historical settings. But in both cases I see why somebody else might. And honestly I do think it's probably better than D20 Modern

* Which now that I think of it has a few fantasy and science fiction hacks. The more traditional fantasy is in the Mirrors book, whereas there's pdf supplements for cyberpunk and space opera.


Where does it say that? I had tried control f'ing the word range and even posted the descript.

In NEW it's on page 97, and worded a bit weirdly. Ranges are multiples of five increments, such as squares on a battlemat.

With the right scale that can be really silly. If I use 2cm=1m on interior maps but 5cm=1km on outdoor maps then weapon ranges decrease by two orders of magnitude whenever you enter a building. Yeah I'm actively going against the intent, but it could do with better wording.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As a note, I know people who shoot 5.56 at 1000 yards, and real precision shooting can take it to 5000 ft or more. And the minimum range for rifle caliber guns used on steel targets is 100 yards (12 yards for pistol calibers).

The gun club I'm part of does most of their shooting at 200 yards on the main range. With people hitting sub minute of arc (roughly 2 inch groups at that range) normally.

[Tevo77777]

WOIN is a strange game, but honestly it makes it pretty easy to work out who it's for. It's for people who want tactical D&D style play, but want it to be a little bit freer in terms of character building. Which honestly I totally get, it's not my thing but I'm sure there's people who want that. Grade and Careers make it effectively class and level based, but in a less restrictive way.

And you know what? I like Lifepath character creation, it's why I might pick up OLD (might even splash out for colour). WOIN isn't even a bad game mechanically, I just can't see much reason to run NEW over CofD*.


In NEW it's on page 97, and worded a bit weirdly. Ranges are multiples of five increments, such as squares on a battlemat.

With the right scale that can be really silly. If I use 2cm=1m on interior maps but 5cm=1km on outdoor maps then weapon ranges decrease by two orders of magnitude whenever you enter a building. Yeah I'm actively going against the intent, but it could do with better wording.
>Range description in N.O.W doesn't explain this clearly
>You have to read N.E.W for it to make sense.

I'm reading Spycraft and loving what I see, so to keep from cluttering the forums... I should make a thread where they are all compared.

Only the lifepath and career stuff seems usable to me. They add too many skills (When even the D20 Modern people wanted skills more like Pathfinder) and the weapons are extra jank.

Would you be willing to help me with the pros section when I get the thread up?


As a note, I know people who shoot 5.56 at 1000 yards, and real precision shooting can take it to 5000 ft or more. And the minimum range for rifle caliber guns used on steel targets is 100 yards (12 yards for pistol calibers).

The gun club I'm part of does most of their shooting at 200 yards on the main range. With people hitting sub minute of arc (roughly 2 inch groups at that range) normally.

I get my numbers from 9 Hole Reviews. They put guns in a very stable position and they have a spotter. Typically, if they're missing like 5 times in a row (Like they keep the same hold, but the bullets are circling the target), I decide we've passed the "Effective Range" in my system.