DnD 3.5 Character Build looking for suggestions/help

[samduke]

Fairly straight to the point a character that I have a concept for that I am looking to optimize with the help of you playgrounders.

Thank you in Advance.

This is using 3.X rules, presume all 1st party WoTC only, no dragon, no pathfinder ect...
Attributes are less of a important thing, but if you must presume a 32 point buy with Con being at least a 16, and you fill in the attributes.
This will be for a full level 20 build
Concept: to be able to Tank, to that end the build suggestions need high Hit Points, high Armor Class and high Damage Reduction.
What I have come up with works, but it might be able to be optimized better and thus I am not sold on anything just yet.
The objective I had below was to get as much stacking Damage Reduction as possible while attempting to fulfill the High AC & High HP aspects as well as have a flavorful PC

Shield Dwarf
Fighter (Zhentarim Soldier) 6
Totemist 1
Ironsoul Forgemaster 5
Champion of Gwynharyf 3
empty levels 5

Feats in no particular order
Dwarven Armor Proficiency
Toughness
Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
Roll With It
Thick Skinned
Greater Resiliency
Guerrilla Warrior


Equipment
Battle Plate
with - Hellforged template, Dwarvencraft template, Adamantine, Halfweight, Nimbleness, Magic Armor Enhancement +5(+9), Iron ward Diamond

Dorje of Immovability

[MultitudeMan]

The difficulty with tanking in 3.5 is that without any form of aggro mechanic, your enemies can just ignore your DR, high AC and high HP by attacking everyone else first. In this tank build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620266-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Dhalver-Nah-Bro) by Piggy Knowles, a suggestion he makes to counteract this is using the feats Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian to keep you from being bypassed.

[Inevitability]

The difficulty with tanking in 3.5 is that without any form of aggro mechanic, your enemies can just ignore your DR, high AC and high HP by attacking everyone else first. In this tank build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620266-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Dhalver-Nah-Bro) by Piggy Knowles, a suggestion he makes to counteract this is using the feats Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian to keep you from being bypassed.

A dip in Devoted Defender is another good way to force enemies to target you, it's in Sword&Fist.

[samduke]

The difficulty with tanking in 3.5 is that without any form of aggro mechanic, your enemies can just ignore your DR, high AC and high HP by attacking everyone else first. In this tank build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620266-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Dhalver-Nah-Bro) by Piggy Knowles, a suggestion he makes to counteract this is using the feats Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian to keep you from being bypassed.


A dip in Devoted Defender is another good way to force enemies to target you, it's in Sword&Fist.

Well with the build above it has levels to take defender and 3oddfeats for those as well

Keep the suggestions coming

[pabelfly]

I don't know if I'd pick Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization. Spending one feat to gain 1 AC and minor bonuses isn't that great a trade. For comparison, you could pick up Law Devotion several times and gain up to +7 AC during combat.

This thread might be of interest: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting

[Elrak]

I feel that Crusader always fits well to this type of concepts.

Aside from that, whenever I think of a build along the same lines I end up wanting to make Con as relevant as possible. The x to y stat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) thread is great for this purposes.

Specifically for AC Deepwarden level 2 and binding Dahlver Nar (either through Binder levels or through feats) can be an interesting idea.

[samduke]

I think Deepwarden fits a little better than Devoted Defender or crusader
Law Devotion does not really work for the concept, Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian are decent

Bind Dahlver Nar 2nd lvl Vestige -though feat wise would require Bind Vestige and Bind Vestige, Improved or a 3rd level binder
gain: Mad Soul + Maddening Moan + Natural Armor + Shield Self

[Menzath]

A few questions for clarification. Are flaws allowed, will you be starting play at lvl 1 or a higher level, how much cheese will the table allow.

[samduke]

A few questions for clarification. Are flaws allowed, will you be starting play at lvl 1 or a higher level, how much cheese will the table allow.

Flaws and traits are not allowed, i did put this was a level 20 build

[MultitudeMan]

Bind Dahlver Nar 2nd lvl Vestige -though feat wise would require Bind Vestige and Bind Vestige, Improved or a 3rd level binder
gain: Mad Soul + Maddening Moan + Natural Armor + Shield Self

You can also split the difference, and take 1 level of Binder, and the feat Improved Binding (just needs 4 ranks of Intimidate).

[samduke]

well I think this is a reasonable build, but if there is something that works better I am all ears, Also if there are other equipment that might be useful please share.

Attributes 32 point buy: (Con, at level 1 at least 16 - must get to 20)

Shield Dwarf

Fighter (Zhentarim Soldier) 6/Binder 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster 5/Champion of Gwynharyf 3/Deepwarden 2

Bind Dahlver Nar, gain: Mad Soul + Maddening Moan + Natural Armor + Shield Self

Feats in no particular order
Endurance
Constant Guardian
Dutiful Guardian
Dwarven Armor Proficiency
Toughness
Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
Roll With It
Thick Skinned
Greater Resiliency
Guerrilla Warrior

Equipment
Battle Plate
with - Hellforged template, Dwarvencraft template, Adamantine, Halfweight, Nimbleness, Magic Armor Enhancement +5(+9), Iron ward Diamond

Dorje of Immovability

[Inevitability]

Champion of Gwyrmanhyrf needs Righteous Wrath, which requires the 'rage class ability'. How are you obtaining that? (actually, the feat doesn't even seem to be listed on your list?)

[Elrak]

The concept to me seems to also be trying to be a bit of a bodyguard looking at the feats Constant and Dutiful Guardin. If that is indeed the case I would consider gaining access to the Stance Ironguards Glare. This could be achieved with a feat (Martial Study) and an Item (Variation of the White raven crown). This possibly would provide more value than Guerilla Warrior I believe.

For equipment an animated shield seems to be a logical fit and you may also want to consider the enchatment "Ghost ward" for both the shield and armor as it would help improve the Touch AC.

Other than that if you somehow can get hold of a shield or even better "runic guardian" construct, it would help you reduce the damage you may take. Combine this with the "Shield Self" ability of Dahlver Nar and you can pass on most of the damage to someone else.

As an aside note, I am not sure how you are qualifying for Champion of Gwynharyf nor Ironsoul Forgemaster. The former is missing the feat requirements (and the requirements for the requirements in regards to the feat Righteous Wrath) and the latter is missing a way to shape soulmelds though I believe this may just be you missing totemist 1 in the build summary.

[ShurikVch]

In the Dragon #330, among the "Flaws for Commoners" is the Weresheep:

Theresheep!
Effect: You are afflicted with lycanthropy. Not such a flaw, right? Your hybrid and animal forms are of a harmless sheep. When in hybrid or animal form you suffer the effects of the Delicious flaw.
Now, the Delicious flaw (from the very same article):

Someone cast divine flavor on you.
Effect: All monsters attack you if able, regardless of their attitude toward the rest of your party. In addition, you go down smooth. When subjected to a swallow whole special attack, you are treated as two size categories smaller than you actually are.
Thus, once you change into your hybrid form - all the monsters would attack you and only you
Moreover: since rules for Lycanthropy don't change regardless of which, exactly, Animal is it based on - you would still gain a pair of claws, +2 natural AC, +2 Wis, Iron Will bonus feat, and DR 5/silver (or DR 10/silver - who said you aren't natural lycanthrope?)
Sheep, as statted in the Dangerous Denizens, would give you +1 natural AC, +2 Dex and Con, bite attack, and Alertness bonus feat

If you don't mind to start with CE alignment - you can even claim you're Blacktooth Lycanthrope ("The Twisted Run" adventure, Dungeon #129). In comparison to "regular" lycanthropes, you would get(/lose):
+10' speed;
+8 natural AC (not +2);
Curse of Blacktooth Lycanthropy (1st-generation only; others get "standard" Curse of Lycanthropy);
Darkvision 60';
DR 10/silver and magic;
SR 10+HD;
-2 Wis (not +2);
Improved Natural Attack bonus feat(s) for all of your natural attacks (in addition to the Iron Will - not instead of).

[Elrak]

@ShurikVch I believe the OP excluded any Dragon content as well as Pathfinder in the first post so sadly I think that would not work.

[Maat Mons]

Other than being hard to kill, what do you want your character to do?

Is there any particular reason for Battle Plate? Mechanus Gear is just as good. And Thaalud Stone Armor is better.

If you add Halfweight to your armor, doesn’t it become light armor? That would mean your Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization feats would stop working, since you’re no longer wearing heavy armor.

[samduke]

Champion of Gwyrmanhyrf needs Righteous Wrath, which requires the 'rage class ability'
*
yep that it does will need to look at another class option, this does not work


Halfweight (FR-Und p70) - halfweight armor is treated as light armor in every way

Heavy Armor Optimization & Greater Heavy Armor Optimization Feats
Prerequisite: Armor Proficiency (heavy), When you are wearing heavy armor

*
It's still heavy armor. It's just treated as Light for movement and other limitations. "Which feats apply" is not a matter of movement or other limitations

Edit
Well some minor adjustments to things
Shield Dwarf : Fighter(Zhentarim Soldier) 6/Binder 1/Totemist 1/Ironsoul Forgemaster 5/Deepwarden 2/Dread Commando 5

Feats
01: Dodge
01: Constant Guardian
02: Toughness
03: Dutiful Guardian
04: Heavy Armor Optimization
06: Endurance
06: Improved Binding
09: Roll with it
12: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
14: Track
15: Thick Skinned
18: Greater Resiliency
BF: Mobility

After looking over armor options:
+10(+5enh)Dwarvencraft Hellforged Adamantine Halfweight Nimbleness Mobility Mechanus Gear Armor

[Menzath]

So if you are looking to just stack damage reduction, HP, and AC, it seems like being a pswar/iron mind would net a better total.

With only the requisite feats for iron mind you are looking at Dr x/-, enhancement bonus to NA AC, insight bonus to AC, temp hp. And that's all just from lvl1 powers.

I think the total for DR comes out to 10/- or so at lvl 20 without any other changes.
Also getting self heals, a bunch of utility from powers is nice. If the DM says ability healing from binding Naberious counts as natural, taking binding feats and body fuel to recharge pp means all day uptime on powers.

As for you taking thick skinned and greater resiliency on a dwarf do you already have DM approval, because of how qualifying for monstrous feats on pg.29 of savage species reads I don't think a regular dwarf could qualify.

[samduke]

So if you are looking to just stack damage reduction, HP, and AC, it seems like being a pswar/iron mind would net a better total.

With only the requisite feats for iron mind you are looking at Dr x/-, enhancement bonus to NA AC, insight bonus to AC, temp hp. And that's all just from lvl1 powers.

I think the total for DR comes out to 10/- or so at lvl 20 without any other changes.
Also getting self heals, a bunch of utility from powers is nice. If the DM says ability healing from binding Naberious counts as natural, taking binding feats and body fuel to recharge pp means all day uptime on powers.

As for you taking thick skinned and greater resiliency on a dwarf do you already have DM approval, because of how qualifying for monstrous feats on pg.29 of savage species reads I don't think a regular dwarf could qualify.

Psy war/Iron Mind
Damage Reduction (Ex): When psionically focused and wearing heavy armor, an iron mind of 2nd level or higher gains damage reduction 1/—.
This damage reduction stacks with damage reduction of the same sort (such as that of a barbarian), but not with other types.
An iron mind's damage reduction improves by 1 point every three levels above 2nd (to 2/— at 5th level and 3/— at 8th)

this maxes out at DR 3/- that could stack with damage reduction of the same sort
I am not sure how you are getting to DR 10/- or so at lvl 20 ?



OPTIONAL RULE:
TRAINING IN MONSTROUS FEATS
A creature from the Monster Manual may take any monstrous feat, Dwarf (MM p91)
And yes this has DM's permission

so unless my math is off the following should net DR 31/-, stacking, and then the AC is decent and with amulets of natural armor and ring of protection it can go higher
the hit points overall are not to great but that is a factor of classes taken.

*
Adamantine: damage reduction 3/—

Essentia: 3
Armor Bond (Su): grants you damage reduction 3/—, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Roll with it
gain damage reduction 2/-, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Thick Skinned
existing damage reduction improves by 2, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Greater Resiliency (Masters of the Wild p23)
damage reduction increases by +1/-, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Dorje of Immovability gains damage reduction 15/-, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Iron ward Diamond Greater grants damage reduction 5/—, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind
*

[Anthrowhale]

You end up with a very good DR and a reasonable AC if you spend wealth appropriately. However, there are many common attack forms which bypass DR & AC such as touch attacks and save-or-lose saving throws. As such, a large fraction of high level opponents remain quite dangerous somewhat negating the concept.

[Menzath]

Psy war/Iron Mind
Damage Reduction (Ex): When psionically focused and wearing heavy armor, an iron mind of 2nd level or higher gains damage reduction 1/—.
This damage reduction stacks with damage reduction of the same sort (such as that of a barbarian), but not with other types.
An iron mind's damage reduction improves by 1 point every three levels above 2nd (to 2/— at 5th level and 3/— at 8th)

this maxes out at DR 3/- that could stack with damage reduction of the same sort
I am not sure how you are getting to DR 10/- or so at lvl 20 ?



OPTIONAL RULE:
TRAINING IN MONSTROUS FEATS
A creature from the Monster Manual may take any monstrous feat, Dwarf (MM p91)
And yes this has DM's permission

so unless my math is off the following should net DR 31/-, stacking, and then the AC is decent and with amulets of natural armor and ring of protection it can go higher
the hit points overall are not to great but that is a factor of classes taken.

*
Adamantine: damage reduction 3/—

Essentia: 3
Armor Bond (Su): grants you damage reduction 3/—, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Roll with it
gain damage reduction 2/-, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Thick Skinned
existing damage reduction improves by 2, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Greater Resiliency (Masters of the Wild p23)
damage reduction increases by +1/-, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Dorje of Immovability gains damage reduction 15/-, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind

Iron ward Diamond Greater grants damage reduction 5/—, stacks with any damage reduction of the same kind
*

I got to Dr 10/- using only biofeedback augmenting to what a ML 18 could do.
If we are going with a more permissive reading of DR stacking pswar does also get immovability for another 15/-, and inertial barrier for another 5/-. Form of doom isn't that great but would also add another 5/-. And Vigor would get you temp hp equal to 5per manifester level.

Also as soon as you can take the feat Roll with it for 2/-, instead of taking thick skinned or Greater resiliency (especially Greater resiliency wich only gives another +1/-) why not just take roll with it more since it says you can taken it multiple times?


You end up with a very good DR and a reasonable AC if you spend wealth appropriately. However, there are many common attack forms which bypass DR & AC such as touch attacks and save-or-lose saving throws. As such, a large fraction of high level opponents remain quite dangerous somewhat negating the concept.

Didn't rules compendium change it so that touch attacks no longer bypass DR? I thought I had someone point that out to me years back and I had to dig through and find that to verify. Was a pain but good to know.

[Elrak]

You could consider the feat Bonus Essentia for 2 Extra essentia points instead of Greater Resilience. One essentia point could be invested into your armor for one mroe DR which would replace the lost point from Greater Resilience and the second Essentia point could be used to fuel any other soulmeld or receptacle.

Also consider replacing Toughness with "Azure Toughness". Azure Toughness counts as toughness for requirements, grants 1 Essentia Point that can be invested into the feat and grants 3 HP per invested Essentia so with the bonus essentia above would be a slight profit.

[EDIT] Another thing you could do would be instead of going dread commando 5, to add 1 level of Barbarian, 1 extra level of Totemist, and switch mobility for Cobalt rage to enter Totem Rager for 3 levels.

This grants you one more DR1|- higher average HD , higher Saves, access to the juicy Totem Chakra, and more esentia to play around. You do give up on 1 BAB, some skill points and the Dread Commando abilities of which the Armored ease would be the most relevant I guess.

[samduke]

Azure Toughness, good call and would grant 1 extra DR, So I will trade that for toughness

RE: the feat Bonus Essentia: the main reason for Greater Resiliency was character flavor, yes it makes more DR sense to use it Or even a 2nd roll with it feat.

while barbarian into totem rager is an idea the req. Feat: Cobalt Rage, The DR is only beneficial during a rage and the build needs DR at all times.

\The main reason for Dread Commando was to drop the Armor Check Penalty to 0 , for my own reasons. no It does not need all 5 levels and a 2nd totemist level could be taken for more Essentia

as to a touch based attack ignoring DR, unless it specifically states it ignores DR, then the Rules As Written apply


Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack

Now I will grant there are ways around DR, there are ways around having High AC / Touch AC / Flat Footed AC, There are even ways to compromise High Hit points, but almost all of them require a specific setup or build to counter such. most monsters, NPC's are not by default setup as such.

[Elrak]

while barbarian into totem rager is an idea the req. Feat: Cobalt Rage, The DR is only beneficial during a rage and the build needs DR at all times.


I am pretty sure that the DR1|- granted by Totem rager 3 is on all the time and not subject to whether or not the character is in a rage so it should be okay though it would impede you from getting the desired Dread Commando levels.

For reference, the benefit of "cobalt rage" you gain while ragining is a +x bonus to your damage and will saves where the x equals the invested essentia.

[EDIT] One more thing that comes to mind, you can consider the armor enchatment Soulbound. Investing essentia into the armor increases its enhancement bonus by the invested essentia (limited by the enchantment strength). As you are already investing essentia to your armor this would basically let you double dip on the investment. It improves further in case you can bind the armor to a chakra.

[samduke]

my reading of it it would not but I will run it past the gm.

okay anyone know of a way to gain Vampiric Touch as an SLA ?

[Elrak]

my reading of it it would not but I will run it past the gm.

okay anyone know of a way to gain Vampiric Touch as an SLA ?

Lesser aberrant dragonmark can grant it 1/day

[Anthrowhale]

Didn't rules compendium change it so that touch attacks no longer bypass DR?
Under the RC, touch attacks do not bypass DR, but supernatural attacks do. Since monsters making touch attacks virtually always make supernatural touch attacks, DR does not apply.

[samduke]

(Rules Compendium)
(RC p41)
Damage Reduction
When a DR entry has a dash after the slash, such as DR 5/—,
no weapon can overcome it. Insurmountable damage reduction is extraordinary

Special Situations

A few kinds of damage reduction can be overcome by more than one factor. This kind of DR appears with the word “or” between qualities, such as DR 5/cold iron or good. A cold iron weapon or a good-aligned weapon can overcome such DR.

Other forms of damage reduction can be overcome only by attacks that combine qualities. This kind of DR appears with the word “and” between qualities, such as DR 5/silver and good. A weapon that falls into one category but not the other is of no help in overcoming such damage reduction—the weapon must have all the indicated qualities to be effective.

In these cases, the damage reduction is supernatural if any quality required to overcome it is considered part of a supernatural form of DR. Otherwise, the damage reduction is extraordinary.

Nothing in this entry indicate that (SU), bypass DR/-

(RC p119)
Supernatural abilities are magical.
Nothing in this entry indicate that (SU), bypass DR anything

*
I appreciate the assistance, suggestions and so forth.

[Anthrowhale]

...

If you look in the first paragraph of Damage Reduction in the RC there is:

Damage reduction doesn't reduce the damage from ... supernatural abilities.

The observation that DR/- is extraordinary is potentially useful if you use an Antimagic Field although that will suppress some of your sources as well.

Edit: Playing with the AMF idea a bit, you can afford a suit of light adamantine armor before level 6 and later upgrade to a heavy adamantine armor. Roll With It can explicitly be taken multiple times and stacks, so your feats could look like:
1. Toughness
3. ??
6. Roll With It
9. Roll With It
12. Roll With It
15. Roll With It
18. Roll With It

Which leaves you with DR 13/- in an AMF, eliminating most of the DR/- bypasses. For always-on AMF, the Antimagic Shackles from BoED is good. Looking at the Wyrm Black dragon (=apex CR20 bruiser), it has a Bite/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail routine that does 26/15/15/13/13/25 = 107 which becomes 13/2/2/0/0/12 = 29. You do need to get you AC up enough that the Wyrm doesn't just power attack through the DR given it's attack of 42, but that may be feasible.

[samduke]

If you look in the first paragraph of Damage Reduction in the RC there is:


please quote the whole passage next time



A creature that has damage reduction (DR) ignores some of the hit point damage from weapons, natural weapons, and unarmed attacks that don’t meet certain criteria.

Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly, and the attacker knows the attack was ineffective.

Damage reduction doesn’t reduce the damage from energy attacks, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison and injury disease.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s DR can’t distract a creature from concentrating.


Conceding as the passage does state that in and of itself supernatural abilities are not reduced
But many (SU) are reliant on some other form of X, to deal damage then apply the (SU)

because Black Dragon was mentioned I will use it as an example for supernatural attacks
Breath Weapon (Su): will Ignore DR, but then again Breath weapons ignore a lot of things.

However if it were say an Smite "X" type attack, Smite (Su): "X" times per day can make a normal melee attack that deals extra damage
If the attack damage is ignored 100% the smite would also be ignored. at least that is what the above reads as.



AMF, the Antimagic Shackles from BoED is good
an AMF entering or beginning within an existing AMF.. interesting thought

*
Armor Debate
If [IE. Mithral or Halfweight] causes heavy armor to be treated as "Medium or Light Armor"
It does not change the type of armor it is, It is still heavy armor.
RAW says it is still heavy armor.
Then as heavy armor it matters for purposes of "Which feats would then apply" not the factor of being treated as "Medium or Light Armor" for "Which feats would then apply"

The portion of things that say such as, It is just treated as "Medium or Light Armor" in reality are only concerned with things like movement and such, even if it is not directly stated.
You would still need heavy armor proficiency to wear heavy armor that is treated as "Medium or Light Armor" without penalties

Unless someone can show me the rule (Source & Page) that definitively states the status of armor being treated as "Medium or Light Armor" is then somehow or another changed to be actual "Medium or Light Armor".. I am inclined to go with RAW.

[Elrak]

The portion of things that say such as, It is just treated as "Medium or Light Armor" in reality are only concerned with things like movement and such, even if it is not directly stated.
You would still need heavy armor proficiency to wear heavy armor that is treated as "Medium or Light Armor" without penalties

Unless someone can show me the rule (Source & Page) that definitively states the status of armor being treated as "Medium or Light Armor" is then somehow or another changed to be actual "Medium or Light Armor".. I am inclined to go with RAW.


Magic Item Compendium p. 6 has a few footmark thingies that specify that the mithral armor count for proficiencies for a category lighter. I do not think I can add an exact quote but it should not be hard to pinpoint the exact wording if you look it up.

That being said, I agree that for feats such as Heavy armor optimization et.al. these would still be counted as heavy armor