MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4

If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:

1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?


Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene [Tower scene - ed] -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.

This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.


[Question: has anyone out there made a guess or come to the wrong conclusion but made you think ‘that’s better than what it really is, even for a second?]
No, because if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.


Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's first look at MitD:

:xykon: "My you're one ugly sonofabitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?

MitD enjoying the sunshine:

MitD: Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—


Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O-Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and their gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place
MitD possesses thought reading of some kind, and picked the destination from V's mind


Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:


Lawful Evil: Baatezu/DevilsLawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, ModronsLawful Good: Archons
Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/DaemonsTrue Neutral: RilmaniNeutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/DemonsChaotic Neutral: SlaadiChaotic Good: Eladrin


Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle
Section 1m: MitD's Species SizeWe know that MitD has not yet reached his adult size, both from MitD's recollection of a much bigger father, and from Oona's comment that he is "so small, but will grow in time". The question, then, is how much bigger we can expect the base species to be. To answer this, size categories as used in D&D must be understood to be a logarithmic scale - each size category is double the height of the previous (length for quadrupeds) - a Medium size creature is up to 8 feet tall, a Large one 16, a Huge one 32, etc. While a child-sized Large or even Huge creature could be argued for (and is the basis for the size restriction in the FBS rules in section 3a), anything beyond has generally been found to be hard to justify. In part due to the general agreement that MitD is a pre-teen (due to his attitudes towards sex & boys-only clubs), which suggests he still has some growth to do before he becomes an adult - but not a huge growth. Humans, for example, grow about 20-30% of their height during adolescence. In D&D size terms, that might push you through one size category, but not through two (which would require more than doubling your height).

A second consideration is strength - larger creatures are, of course, stronger, but children are weaker than full grown adults. In the D&D ruleset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), there exists a strength growth chart for creature size advancement that can serve as a guideline to how strength changes between sizes:

Old SizeNew SizeStrDexConNat. ArmorAC/ Attack
FineDiminutiveSame-2SameSame-4
DiminutiveTiny+2-2SameSame-2
TinySmall+4-2SameSame-1
SmallMedium+4-2+2Same-1
MediumLarge+8-2+4+2-1
LargeHuge+8-2+4+3-1
HugeGargantuan+8Same+4+4-2
GargantuanColossal+8Same+4+5-4

Dragons, as one of the few species with detailed statblocks for multiple stages of development, adhere to the above strength growth, usually splitting it across the age groups that share a size.


Version History

1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047")
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378)
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584536)
14 - MitD XIV: High In Protean (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611229)
15 - MitD XV: The Other Dark One (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615971)
16 - MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977)
17 - MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietFor most of the comic & prequel, MitD was almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)
Xykon claims he has "read someplace (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html)" that MitD's species considers dwarves a delicacy (MitD disputes this)

As of #1260 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html), MitD claims to not having been as hungry for the last few days ("not like super full, but I'm not starving. It's fine"). There is so far little consensus about the cause, but the following have been suggested as possibilities:

He is lying, not unlike the time he extemporised to stop Xykon from attacking the OotS at the desert; although this sitution feels different - for one thing, MitD doesn't know who these dwarves being offered are, and thus doesn't seem as conflicted about their impending deaths.
He is approaching some kind of developmental stage (like a caterpillar about to cocoon, or in D&D Barghest about to go Greater Barghest)
The caves are sustaining him, just like (presumably) they sustain all other powerful creatures inside them
He is in his species' preferred climate, being shown by his energy consumption being lowered


GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O-Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the far-back position of the stomp suggests he is either bipedal but crouched over, or walks in multiple 3+ legs, with some far behind the head's position.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O-Chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower is nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wrack Earth (PH2)

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O-Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O-Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O-Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O-Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O-Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O-Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does not see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.


Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:

Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:

The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.


It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:

He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)


Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding templates, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:

No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)


Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."

Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, and has mentioned working on the template chapter, therefore could be his creation, no real way to be sure.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.

Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.

Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).

Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the the stomp with earthquake.

Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).

Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the Tower scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.

Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.

Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.

Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:

The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 19 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:

18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon LordAs per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size/strength requirement

Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication

Cons:
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich. Post no longer exists. Closest official version (http://www.athas.org/products/loa) (Legends of Athas beta pdf) Jasdoif could find is gargantuan, and from 2008

Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking (http://img04.deviantart.net/0731/i/2013/107/3/8/glabrezu_by_vegasmike-d622krv.jpg), while not being immediately recognisable as a demon
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.

Cons: Huge by base, would require MitD to be less than half-adult sized
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Can see through magical darkness due to True Seeing
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Despite being capable of speaking any language, Proteans normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same), and is specially an issue while he sleeps, since he likely cannot spend actions to keep a face then (however, see this essay (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) giving plausible story reasons why MitD might want to keep his eyes steady, and he might be faking sleep, or his eyes are not visible at all when he sleeps and the lines drawn are for visual communication only)

Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:

CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list

Cons:

Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport (although it is not clear how he'd know where to send them)
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a science fiction character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one is Large. Black is Huge.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box, and doesn't need for MitD to be much smaller than adult to fit under the umbrella
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.


Xenocrysth (Hyperconscious: Exploration in Psionics)Pros:

Strength 43, High AC, DR
Psionic Teleport, and ability to read minds, which would allow him to pick up the destination from V's mind
Unusual appearance
Telepathic, so surprising one chooses to talk rather than "impart their thoughts directly into the mind of those with whom they wish to communicate"

Cons:
More terrifying than vomit-inducing appearance
No legs to stomp with, but the end of its tail does have a mace-like protrusion that could have been used instead
Gargantuan, although a very small gargantuan by size (30 ft in length, is actually shorter than the minimum). MitD can be argued to be a mere 25% of its standard size (two categories), which even with hefty strength penalties would still make him quite strong
Fluff suggests they are formed from psionic nightmares, rather than through reproduction, but it is vague hearsay, and possibly wrong ("Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Plea’s progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures")
Hard to reconcile with RC's difficulty in establishing if psionic rules are in place in OotS, since a Xenocrysth comes from a psionic manual, although it could be that its Catapsi Leech ability was impeding any other psionic's from properly demonstrating their abilities to RC.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a significant problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has enjoyed being in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light (see section 1a - Published Canon)
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
IT (Stephen King's IT)
Jason Asano (From He Who Fights With Monsters)
Kirby(Kirby)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
Mario (Super Mario Brothers)
Meatwad (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (https://web.archive.org/web/20200716232110/https://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
Shadowchild (Digger)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Skywarp (Transformers)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Wile E. Coyote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488) (Looney Tunes)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Continued

Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Bulette (Land Shark)Can't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
ChronotyrynLarge, and can teleport, but has low Str (26), isn't particularly revolting-looking (it's a bird with arms) and not surprising it can speak ("dual voice").
CildabrinInsufficient strength, no explanation for the escape
Cipactli (Dragon #317)Colossal creature that causes earthquakes by stomping. No Escape and weak Circus explanation. No manipulator limbs.
Coco, elCreature from Spanish mythology that hides in the shadows and eats (misbehaving) children. Unclear if he is strong enough, probably can't teleport, and both the shadow hiding and children eating are the opposite of MitD's
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how someone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope or painting the doors). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength below appropriate amount. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric". Can speak multiple languages (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), and thus would not be surprising it talked in common.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidaur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:

High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.

Cons:

Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Loculi1E monster, so hard to tell if he'd be strong enough. Fairly disturbing, and might have access to teleport items
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O-Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
PrimusThe supreme modron, has a bunch of powers, including teleport, but is too unique to be MitD (more a position than a creature type), is not particularly revolting, and cannot be mind controlled.
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
Sapphire Dragon, Ancient"Ancient" doesn't really fit MitD's personality. Slightly too big. Barely strong enough. Can't really explain the Circus scene
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
SnarkCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Tarasque, original mythological version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O-Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
No reason why he'd remember a bigger father, or why Oona would expect him to grow.
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Thread Information

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blanket ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.

Voting record

Aug-2013 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15886318&postcount=369); Result: "Size no bigger than huge" & "no immunity to mind control" added to FB requirements
Mar-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23792722&postcount=1036); Result:No change
Aug-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24081940&postcount=920); Result: No change
Jul-2020 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24618514&postcount=9); Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species



Section 4c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time. But, time permitting, every ten pages (at the end of page 10, 20, 30 & 40) I do "first post refreshes" where I add all new proposed ideas, and I may add entire new sections. See rules for the refreshes in section 4a.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Proposals are added during first post refreshes (every 10 pages, unless I am very busy). For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore. And it was 14 threads before anyone thought to suggest the xenocrysth, a remarkably good fit that you'd think would've been brought up much sooner.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).
Are templated creatures allowed?Yes and no. You can put in a guess (that will be recorded in Crusher's list of guesses post) with as many templates, class levels, HD boosts, etc as you feel is called for. But when it comes to recording suggestions (section 3), only the base creature, as described in the statblock, is listed - templates are instead classified in section 2d. The reason for this is twofold: first, as per section 2d, templates are a kind of crutch, since they can be used by any creature, so it doesn't so much explain an MitD characteristic as much as declare it is not such, since others of his species can't do what he can.

But more importantly, the number of combinations of template and creature is practically infinite. I don't want to have to insert or maintain entries for species X; species X-template A; species X - template B; species X, templates A & B; etc. - because in the end, the information all those would contain is the entry for species X, and the information under the template entries in 2d. No need to duplicate the information.

[b_jonas]

Section 6: Appearances of the MitD

Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.

#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) Team evil heads into Kraagor's Tomb, apparently not the first time. To know which entrances they've explored, they mark the door with paint. MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
#1189: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) Redcloak sees a lots of doors marked, concludes they've explored them quickly. Oona disagrees, but MitD takes Redcloak's side to move on from that topic and cover his trick.
#1259: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) Lien mentions MitD.
#1260: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html) MitD is no longer always hungry. Hobgoblin named Haarko feeds him stew. Xykon is surprised and doesn't like this: he needs the MitD to be able to eat the heroes. Xykon says that he read that the MitD's kind likes to eat dwarves, but MitD disagrees.
#1261: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html) MitD asks where Redcloak is. MitD can recognize Redcloak on Xykon's drawing.
#1263: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html) MitD awkwardly tries to deflect suspicion from that he made the extra marks on the door, both Redcloak and Xykon are apparently too busy to notice this. MitD hopes that he managed to delay the search for the gate significantly with that ploy, but Redcloak explains why it doesn't matter too much.
#1264: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1264.html) MitD hopes that searching the gate will take lots of time. “What gate?” joke is back as Redcloak summons Modrons with a Gate spell.
#1265: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html) MitD is disappointed because the Quinton can keep track of doors so marking them with paint will no longer be necessary.
#1266: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html) One unclear line by MitD.
#1267: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1267.html) MitD asks tricky questions from Xykon to try to confuse him into losing the word game that is the price for the Quinton's help. MitD can't remember whether he had a name.


Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.

Section 6c: Appearances in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2) and other books by the Giant. (https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) (Book 2)
#194a: unknown (I don't have the book)
War and XPs (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS03.html) (Book 3)
#415a: unknown (I don't have the book)
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2)
Page 28, in the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.

Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23206731), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-12: Copied post to new thread: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23632329)
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.
2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584536).
2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.
2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.
2020-04-29: Copied everything to MitD thread number 14.
2020-06-16: Give more context for #1039. Text was just "MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight." Describe 1189.
2020-07-17: Copied post to to thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One. It is numbered section 6 deliberately, despite that it's posted above section 5 the list of guesses, to keep section numbers stable if reasonably possible.
2020-08-19: Stubs for bonus strip #415a in book 3, and #194a in book 2.
2022-06-12: Add #1259.
2022-08-13: Copied post to thread “MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977); added #1260 to #1264.
2022-10-11: Added #1265 to #1267.
2022-10-12: Copied post to thread “MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650507).

Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

[Ruck]

As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.

The original essay is posted here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) With some minor revisions:


First, the background to my process:

Preamble

I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

Part 1: The Negative Case

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23810694&postcount=3), every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:


The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:



A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).
Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.)

It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. Or that we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.

Peelee has a theory (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24575576&postcount=404) that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:


If an ever-shifting monster is kept as a surprise, the eyes will not spoil the surprise, because that's how the universe works.

In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be.

(NobleCuriosity has a good post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23634830&postcount=58) further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.

While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19156714#post19156714)). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html): As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).

My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

Part 2: The Positive Case

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesn’t conflict with my art explanation for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

So, the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.

Part 3: The Thematic Case

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23690023&postcount=186), to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23782161&postcount=811) and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) seen signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) of his intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) about character choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right/page2&p=19193861#post19193861), I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway).

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.

Conclusion

In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITD’s scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules to work (or the rules of space and time). I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

[Crusher]

I was paying attention this time!

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses


DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day), Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Loculi 10/12/22
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20, Imentesh > Snorlax 10/24/22
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16, Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax 10/18/22
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Hunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) 6/18/20, Corpse Tearer Linnorm 11/10/22
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Eric the White - Barghast (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022
Zenfrodo - Onyx Dragon 10/10/2022
Psyren - Protean 10/19/22
TaiLiu - Protean 10/26/22
Mike Havran - Protean 12/7/22
brian 333 - Dao 12/22/22
Tzardok - Templated Cipactli 12/22/22
Tubercular Ox - Hunting Horror 12/22/22
Beni-Kujaku - Psionic Old Li Lung 12/28/22
InvisibleBison - Protean 3/1/23
georgie_leech - Protean 3/1/23

I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, and running totals for their scores, which I will update infrequently. If you have one guess, it gets 1 point. Two ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and three ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. Two non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and three non-ordered guesses will get 0.33/0.33/0.33. Guessing "X is my first choice then Y and Z are tied for second" will be scored 0.5/0.25/0.25. And "X or Y are tied for my first choice, but Z is clearly my 3rd choice" will be scored... Um, hmm. My normal process falls apart with that but the other way gives a breakdown of 0.4/0.4/0.2. That feels about right and I'll probably go with it but if it comes up, I'll think about it more.

If you guess more than three, I'll discard the 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a modestly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it and here we are.

Update - Last updated 10/12/22

Its been 356 days since the last update, and for perhaps the 5th consecutive update the Protean has, again, modestly extended its commanding lead. The ANB and Slaad also modestly extended their leads over the secondary pack of candidates, and while the Slaad gained slightly on the ANB for 2nd place it is in no immediate danger of passing it. Also worth noting the "Dragon" quasi-candidate had a really strong update and is now arguably the last member of the lead pack (which you can tell because I'm talking about them in this paragraph rather than the next one) rather than the strongest member of the trailing pack.

The last update's hot new thing, the Xenocrysth, surprisingly lost some ground this time and fell behind an apparently revitalized Glabrezu and the "Deity" quasi-candidate. The Uvuudaum, Zodar and "Deity" have the exact same scores as last time ("Deity" moved ahead of Xenocrysth because the Xenocrysth lost ground, not because "Deity" moved. Unlike Glabrezu which actually gained points.), which may not be interesting but we fondly hold them in our hearts anyway.

While noting the votes, I saw Loculi received a surprisingly large number of votes (more than one) so I totaled them and since I was doing Loculi I figured I should do Barghast as well. The Barghast also had more than one vote and has even had more than one vote for a few years now, so if I was counting the Loculi I could deny the Barghast its recognition no longer. Not surprisingly, the two are second to last and last on the league tables, respectively, but at least they're on it now. Finally, you'll note some candidates have more significant figures in their scoring than they used to. This is a result of people making guesses which result in scores utilizing another significant figure. This has always been acceptable and has been in the explanation of how the scoring works for years, so its sort of an odd fluke it's never happened before.

As a reminder, the "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates aren't specific candidates but are instead aggregations of all votes cast for any kind of Dragon or any specific or general Deity. They're grouped, added up, and presented because I find it mildly interesting.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 38.53
#2 - ANB - 13.5
#3 - Slaad - 10.5
#X - "Dragon" - 8.3
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Glabrezu - 3.83
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#6 - Xenocrysth - 2.9
#7 - Zodar - 2.8
#8 - Loculi - 1.83
#9 - Barghast - 1.3

[Peelee]

Since we are at page 49, and we haven't really seen much movement on the vote front for a bit, I've gone ahead and started the new thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650507). Please form either an orderly line or a chaotic mob as your alignment calls for and make your way there.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

I like the implication that British is an alignment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I like the implication that British is an alignment.

It isn't? You've got British on one end, and Scottish on the other, orthogonal with the Welsh-N. Irish continuum.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

As someone whose ancestry is Scottish, Irish, and English, I can have a civil war without leaving the comfort of my own body.

Especially because half of the Scottish part is Clan Wallace. First ancestor to reach the United States was a Wallace - a sheep thief who was given the choice of transport or hanging in the 17th century.

[Laurentio III]

As someone whose ancestry is Scottish, Irish, and English, I can have a civil war without leaving the comfort of my own body.
While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.

So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.

[Fyraltari]

It isn't? You've got British on one end, and Scottish on the other, orthogonal with the Welsh-N. Irish continuum.

GW
Thus my distate for the alignment system is historically justified.
(Edit: also, because you wrote "British" when you meant "English" I think you might be wise to check the sheep you will eat in the future for concealed explosives.)

While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.

So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.
I never really thought about it, but that explains a lot about the Roman Empire.

[Crusher]

As someone whose ancestry is Scottish, Irish, and English, I can have a civil war without leaving the comfort of my own body.

Especially because half of the Scottish part is Clan Wallace. First ancestor to reach the United States was a Wallace - a sheep thief who was given the choice of transport or hanging in the 17th century.

Wow, did HE make a bad choice.

[Throknor]

As a reminder, the "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates aren't specific candidates but are instead an aggregation of all votes cast for any kind of Dragon and any specific or general Deity. They're grouped, added up, and presented because I find it mildly interesting.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 38.53
#2 - ANB - 13.5
#3 - Slaad - 10.5
#X - "Dragon" - 8.3
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Glabrezu - 3.83
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#6 - Xenocrysth - 2.9
#7 - Zodar - 2.8
#8 - Loculi - 1.83
#9 - Barghast - 1.3
You might find it interesting but it's a bit glaring to see two of my choices sandwiched between them.
:roy:

[Hardcore]

I always found it hard to do those alignment tests, and I am convinced it's my Asperger that is the problem. Questions need be put the right way to not cause confusion.
Sure, tests specifically made for group is not realistic, but would have been nice to take.

[Shining Wrath]

While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.

So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.


I have read Dante and remember well the fratricidal nature of Italian politics. Including hate over how "Si" was pronounced IIRC.

[Synesthesy]

While I respect the internal turmoil of your soul, we italian people perfectioned the art of town-to-town hate and impenetrable dialect, up and beyond inciting a war between two thriving cities as revenge for the theft - out of spite - of a single wooden bucket.

So, as I don't know it any fellow countryman is present, I feel obliged to form a mere man messy mob.

Two mere man messy mobs!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(Edit: also, because you wrote "British" when you meant "English" I think you might be wise to check the sheep you will eat in the future for concealed explosives.)


No, I really did mean to write British, because otherwise the joke wouldn't work (since I was riffing off a post that mentioned British already). If it makes you feel better, pretend it's not a reference to Great Britain but to (French) Brittany, who mostly settled over in the lower half of the island of Great Britain. "Lesser" British, if you will.

GW

[Keltest]

No, I really did mean to write British, because otherwise the joke wouldn't work (since I was riffing off a post that mentioned British already). If it makes you feel better, pretend it's not a reference to Great Britain but to (French) Brittany, who mostly settled over in the lower half of the island of Great Britain. "Lesser" British, if you will.

GW

I believe the term for that group would be Britons? I think. Not to be confused with the Britons who live on Great Britain.

[Fyraltari]

No, I really did mean to write British, because otherwise the joke wouldn't work (since I was riffing off a post that mentioned British already).
Oh, okay. But that hardly works in opposition with Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh.



If it makes you feel better, pretend it's not a reference to Great Britain but to (French) Brittany, who mostly settled over in the lower half of the island of Great Britain. "Lesser" British, if you will.I believe the term for that group would be Britons? I think. Not to be confused with the Britons who live on Great Britain.

You're thinking of "Breton"*. Also Grey Wolf has it backwards, Britanny was settled by folks coming from Great Britain at the end of the fifth century, which is why its French name is Bretagne which also how we call Britain (therefore we sometimes call Brittany Petite Bretagne, Small Britain) and why they're called Bretons which is how we call Britons. For the sake of completeness, we call British, britanniques and the original Small Britain was Ireland.

*If any Elder Scrolls fan wondered where the people of High Rock got their name, now you know (and we've translated it to Bréton to keep it a little bit distinct).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, okay. But that hardly works in opposition with Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh.

On the contrary, it works because in everyday parlance, "British", when it comes to stereotypes such as the ones I was referencing (again, based on the previous post where "British" stereotypes to "orderly queueing") is functionally synonymous with "English" (or maybe even merely North bank Londoners, AFAIK), to the enormous annoyance of the other groups, especially the Scottish.

And now the poor frog is thoroughly dissected. RIP frog.

GW

[Tzardok]

It may have been a vivisection; the frog may still be alive. Right? Right?

...

Wait, why did I think that was a good thing again?

[Fyraltari]

On the contrary, it works because in everyday parlance, "British", when it comes to stereotypes such as the ones I was referencing (again, based on the previous post where "British" stereotypes to "orderly queueing") is functionally synonymous with "English" (or maybe even merely North bank Londoners, AFAIK), to the enormous annoyance of the other groups, especially the Scottish.

Which is why you should worry about explosive devices. Should I put my frog next to yours?

[Shining Wrath]

Alas, the history of the Western Isles shall never be froggotten.

[Crusher]

On the contrary, it works because in everyday parlance, "British", when it comes to stereotypes such as the ones I was referencing (again, based on the previous post where "British" stereotypes to "orderly queueing") is functionally synonymous with "English" (or maybe even merely North bank Londoners, AFAIK), to the enormous annoyance of the other groups, especially the Scottish.

And now the poor frog is thoroughly dissected. RIP frog.

GW

Ha! A marvelous back-and-forth play on the title of the thread!


That was intentional, right?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ha! A marvelous back-and-forth play on the title of the thread!


That was intentional, right?

It did indeed cross my mind. But nevertheless I persevered.

GW

[Peelee]

Alas, the history of the Western Isles shall never be froggotten.

Isle of Lucy will never be forgotten.

[NobleCuriosity]

While noting the votes, I saw Loculi received a surprisingly large number of votes so I totaled them and since I was doing Loculi I figured I should do Barghast as well. Not surprisingly, they're second to last and last on the league tables, respectively, but at least they're on it now.



What’s a Loculi? I can’t seem to find that monster by googling and they’re not in the thread’s opening posts.


Edit: This was very poorly phrased. They do have a two sentence blurb on the proposed ideas section, it just doesn’t give me enough information to know what one is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

they’re not in the thread’s opening posts.

Yes it is?

GW

[theangelJean]

[puts both hands up] I haven't read all the threads, and I don't know D&D well so this explains precisely zero mechanically ... I just had an idea on re-reading the section with the tombstones of previous worlds. Feel free to shoot me down, especially if this has been discussed before.

Could the MitD be some kind of Outsider who has been mind-wiped between worlds?

That's about the full extent of the idea. It would explain the MitD's familiarity with the Astral Plane - that's where they hang out between worlds - and its lack of memories. Not clear on how this works out to not being able to identify the Gates - maybe it doesn't, or maybe it's a side effect of an ongoing memory wipe.

Of course, this doesn't narrow down which type of Outsider (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Outsider_Type), some of which have already been suggested. But while looking at the list for Outsiders which might have a connection to previous worlds, I came across the Native subtype (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Native_Subtype):


A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane ... Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Anyway, throwing this out there as a story theme.

[NobleCuriosity]

Yes it is?

GW


Sorry, that was poorly phrased on my part. I meant that there wasn’t any link to stats or much description at all; “1E monster, so hard to tell if he'd be strong enough. Fairly disturbing, and might have access to teleport items” doesn’t explain to me why it’s climbed onto the leaderboard of guesses.

Normally I’d just Google this myself, but I tried that and it didn’t work. I expected it to at least spit up some reference to this thread, but it seems to have missed it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, that was poorly phrased on my part. I meant that there wasn’t any link to stats or much description at all; “1E monster, so hard to tell if he'd be strong enough. Fairly disturbing, and might have access to teleport items” doesn’t explain to me why it’s climbed onto the leaderboard of guesses.

Normally I’d just Google this myself, but I tried that and it didn’t work. I expected it to at least spit up some reference to this thread, but it seems to have missed it.


Loculi are a race of semi-humanoid reptile monsters with an age power-progression chart just like dragons. They don't look crazy-weird but they aren't something you see every day, kind of like a cross between a lizard man and an armadillo. They have 6 legs, a pair of useable arms and a heavy, bony ankylosaurus-like tail. Their back and limbs are heavily armor plated which get tougher as they get older, their young are pretty fragile but they get sturdier as they get older, really old ones can use magic and psionic abilities and, the piece de resistance: they'll eat just about anything but they particularly enjoy eating gnome and dwarf meat (they get along fine with elves and humans, but they hate dwarves and gnomes).

Ok, so, babies are 6" tall while freakishly ancient ones are 10' tall, but I'm going to focus on just regular, run-of-the-mill ancient ones (a d100 roll of "99" rather than "100"). A 511-800 year old Loculi is 7' 4" tall, the armored parts are AC1 (roughly equal to platemail plus a shield), its got 9d8+8 hp (which is in the ballpark of an adult or even old red dragon in 1E AD&D, the version when the Loculi was introduced), the only stat they list is INT (14, which isn't bad. There are deities with 18s and below for stats) but its tail-smash hits for 2d12+2 and its bite hits for 2d10 which is nearly ancient dragon territory so its probably extremely strong. They have a range of psionic and magic-user/illusionist spells though nothing is analogous to Teleport or Wish. I might actually do a proper presentation of it later.

GW c

[NobleCuriosity]

GW c

Thanks you for alleviating my confusion! I appreciate it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Thanks you for alleviating my confusion! I appreciate it.

To note is that they are an incredibly obscure monster, published only in White Dwarf #36 (a mainly Warhammer-focused magazine nowadays, then a general RPG-aimed resource), which was firmly in the AD&D 1st edition era. It also only goes up to 3rd level spells as psionic abilities. The mostly interesting part is that they learn languages as they grow up. Youngs don't speak at all, they learn to speak their own language at age 20, and to speak common at age 120. This would handily fit the "It speaks? And in common no less!" thing. Of course, the overall power level of the thing is much too low for our purposes, and MitD doesn't seem to be an Ancient or a Grandmother to have such psionic abilities, but still, kudos to the guy who found that.

[Crusher]

To note is that they are an incredibly obscure monster, published only in White Dwarf #36 (a mainly Warhammer-focused magazine nowadays, then a general RPG-aimed resource), which was firmly in the AD&D 1st edition era. It also only goes up to 3rd level spells as psionic abilities. The mostly interesting part is that they learn languages as they grow up. Youngs don't speak at all, they learn to speak their own language at age 20, and to speak common at age 120. This would handily fit the "It speaks? And in common no less!" thing. Of course, the overall power level of the thing is much too low for our purposes, and MitD doesn't seem to be an Ancient or a Grandmother to have such psionic abilities, but still, kudos to the guy who found that.

Thanks for adding this. Yeah, exactly, the Ancient Mother or whatever it’s called oldest possible
Version is surprisingly close to working and I keep almost putting together a case for it, except that it’s the oldest and biggest version so it’s be weird for someone think him small or for his dad to be bigger. Also, the name strongly suggests it has to be female (though the fluff is vague), which MitD obviously isn’t.

[NobleCuriosity]

To note is that they are an incredibly obscure monster, published only in White Dwarf #36 (a mainly Warhammer-focused magazine nowadays, then a general RPG-aimed resource), which was firmly in the AD&D 1st edition era. It also only goes up to 3rd level spells as psionic abilities. The mostly interesting part is that they learn languages as they grow up. Youngs don't speak at all, they learn to speak their own language at age 20, and to speak common at age 120. This would handily fit the "It speaks? And in common no less!" thing. Of course, the overall power level of the thing is much too low for our purposes, and MitD doesn't seem to be an Ancient or a Grandmother to have such psionic abilities, but still, kudos to the guy who found that.

Ah, that explains how Google could have never heard of it. Thanks for the clarification.

[Darth V]

@Crusher: Please change my guess from "Protean" to "Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax"

While I totally stand by the arguments for the Protean, MitD becoming finally visible only to turn into a black blob with two eyes would be absolutely hilarious and such a meta joke i certainly would not put past Rich Burlew. This comic started as a parody after all...
Snorlax solely because it's downright scary how much it would fit if it wasn't for copyright issues and/or the massive genre shift it would entail.


I also would like to express my opinion again that the MitD can read minds to explain most of his unusual/surprising knowledge (half of the ritual, knowing Team Evil uses fake names, Astral Plane without remembering being there, Goblin politics, maybe even learning Go and some others)

[Laurentio III]

I also would like to express my opinion again that the MitD can read minds to explain most of his unusual/surprising knowledge (half of the ritual, knowing Team Evil uses fake names, Astral Plane without remembering being there, Goblin politics, maybe even learning Go and some others)
Optional explaining: MitD is reading the comic as it's published.

[Edreyn]

Optional explaining: MitD is reading the comic as it's published.

One of my own first thoughts about MitD was that he is the manifestation of writer, his child, friend or whatever.

3d in stick world is ugly yet beautiful, extra dimension grants strength, being a writer, or close to him allows to make otherwise impossible things and so on.

But I believe this had been discussed, probably many times.

One of proposed ideas in original post also explains why this idea is, most chances, wrong one.

[Crusher]

You might find it interesting but it's a bit glaring to see two of my choices sandwiched between them.
:roy:

Sorry! Life is a cruel zero-sum game. One person's "interesting" is another person's "distraction from hard-earned glory".


@Crusher: Please change my guess from "Protean" to "Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax"

So noted.

[Peelee]

Optional explaining: MitD is reading the comic as it's published.

MitD: What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the comic?
Redcloak: Now. You’re looking at now. Everything that happens now is happening now.
MitD: What happened to then?
Redcloak: We passed it.
MitD: When?
Redcloak: Just now. We’re in now now.
MitD: Go back to then!
Redcloak: When?
MitD: Now!
Redcloak: Now?
MitD: Now!
Redcloak: I can’t!
MitD: Why?
Redcloak: We missed it!
MitD: When?
Redcloak: Just now!
MitD: When will then be now?
Redcloak: Soon.

[Fyraltari]

MitD: What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the comic?
Redcloak: Now. You’re looking at now. Everything that happens now is happening now.
MitD: What happened to then?
Redcloak: We passed it.
MitD: When?
Redcloak: Just now. We’re in now now.
MitD: Go back to then!
Redcloak: When?
MitD: Now!
Redcloak: Now?
MitD: Now!
Redcloak: I can’t!
MitD: Why?
Redcloak: We missed it!
MitD: When?
Redcloak: Just now!
MitD: When will then be now?
Redcloak: Soon.

Xykon: The guy with the moustache?

[Psyren]

I was originally Team Slaad but put me down for Protean too.

What is the thread title a reference to? I haven't been keeping up.

[Keltest]

I was originally Team Slaad but put me down for Protean too.

What is the thread title a reference to? I haven't been keeping up.

Its something that was said near the end of the previous thread which was felt to very well encapsulate the general attitude the posters in this thread generally take to each other.

[Psyren]

Ah, I see the exchange now. And the [Y]?

(Sorry if I'm ruining the joke by having it explained)

[Peelee]

Ah, I see the exchange now. And the [Y]?

(Sorry if I'm ruining the joke by having it explained)
It was originally a lowercase y. I didn't see any issue at all with changing the case without any fanfare or notation, but I don't name the thread.

[Fyraltari]

It was originally a lowercase y. I didn't see any issue at all with changing the case without any fanfare or notation, but I don't name the thread.

Changing the y's case would have been quite clear. Grey Wolf was just being pedantic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Changing the y's case would have been quite clear. Grey Wolf was just being pedantic.

Precisely.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Precisely.

GW

Therefore, Y not?

[Crusher]

I was originally Team Slaad but put me down for Protean too.

What is the thread title a reference to? I haven't been keeping up.

Noted.

Surprisingly, I did not already have a vote down for you.

[Psyren]

Noted.

Surprisingly, I did not already have a vote down for you.

Not your fault, I think I voted Black Slaad once multiple threads ago and have only popped back in occasionally e.g. when something MitD-related happens in the comic.

[Hardcore]

Noted.

Surprisingly, I did not already have a vote down for you.
I want to change my vote too.

Make it Imentesh>Snorlax

[Crusher]

I want to change my vote too.

Make it Imentesh>Snorlax

Your change is noted.

[Shining Wrath]

I think I'm down for Protean as my second choice, and I'd like to withdraw that.
For the meta-reason that I don't think Rich wants to draw a Protean character over and over, and it would be (IMNHO) dramatically unsatisfying for MitD to emerge and then vanish.

[Crusher]

I think I'm down for Protean as my second choice, and I'd like to withdraw that.
For the meta-reason that I don't think Rich wants to draw a Protean character over and over, and it would be (IMNHO) dramatically unsatisfying for MitD to emerge and then vanish.

Sorry, I didn't completely follow you. You want to add Protean as your 2nd choice after partially decapitated Dread Linnorm?

[Peelee]

Sorry, I didn't completely follow you. You want to add Protean as your 2nd choice after partially decapitated Dread Linnorm?
Replace "down for" with "recorded as having", which is the intended meaning.

"I think I'm down for recorded as having Protean as my second choice, and I'd like to withdraw that."

[Crusher]

Replace "down for" with "recorded as having", which is the intended meaning.

"I think I'm down for recorded as having Protean as my second choice, and I'd like to withdraw that."

Ah, I see. Atm, I only have a single guess down for Shining Wrath. Which, now that I think about it, seems odd as I sort of recall adding another guess in the waning days of the last thread. Hmm, I'll check.

[TaiLiu]

I vote for Protean! Ruck convinced me a while back but I haven't voted till now.

[Crusher]

I vote for Protean! Ruck convinced me a while back but I haven't voted till now.

You vote has been recorded! Ruck was pretty convincing.


Ah, I see. Atm, I only have a single guess down for Shining Wrath. Which, now that I think about it, seems odd as I sort of recall adding another guess in the waning days of the last thread. Hmm, I'll check.

Hmm, I guess I misremembered. Nothing in the last 10 or so pages of the last thread. Maybe it was just before that and I missed it.

[Shining Wrath]

For some reason I thought I was recorded as "ANB", followed by "Protean". My apologies.

[TaiLiu]

You vote has been recorded! Ruck was pretty convincing.
Thank you! Yeah, it was a really great essay.

[Neponde]

In my latest reread, I noticed in the final panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) that Windstriker looks surprised/afraid. I am unaware of horses/celestials sensory or extrasensory capabilities, but is there a group of creatures that would cause the horse to react more strongly than to, say, a goblinoid?

If this has been discussed before, forgive me. It would take less time to read war & peace than this thread's history.

Edited to add: in panel four (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) the surprise look.is back. Perhaps it is merely picking up Miko's emotions, similar to V and blackwing.

[Charybdis136]

In my latest reread, I noticed in the final panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) that Windstriker looks surprised/afraid. I am unaware of horses/celestials sensory or extrasensory capabilities, but is there a group of creatures that would cause the horse to react more strongly than to, say, a goblinoid?

If this has been discussed before, forgive me. It would take less time to read war & peace than this thread's history.

Edited to add: in panel four (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) the surprise look.is back. Perhaps it is merely picking up Miko's emotions, similar to V and blackwing.

My take on windstriker is that he is reacting to things that would also make an average person surprised. The appearance of someone they did not know was there, like when the MitD suddenly appears. Then when slashed numerous times, the MitD says that it tickles. In every other panel the horse does not seem to mind the presence of the MitD, so I take it to be a reaction to circumstance and not the creature itself. We have to remember that paladin mounts get bonuses to int so windstriker should be able to understand as much as an average person.

[Kastor]

I would like to change my guess from Athasian Nightmare Beast (old version) to Corpse Tearer Linnorm.

I've been ruminating on what my guess should be for a while and ANB hasn't sat right for a while, but CTL feels better in a lot of regards, and I'd like to make a case for CTL. First I will outline basic argument, then move on to major draws.

First off, does it fit the big scenes?
1, Escape: Feasible by access to Miracle through Cleric Spellcasting.
2, Tower Scene: AC 33 and DR/20 magic. Strength 36, special flung condition.
3, Circus: Resembles "rotting flesh", yet has 19 CHA. No relevant passive abilities nor active powers.
4, Impossible categories: Is technically a kind of dragon. CR 28.
5, Publish timeline: Existed in 2e and published in MM2 for 3e in 2001.
6, size: is Gargantuan, with a just-below-target 36.
7, Mind effects: has no immunities, merely high resistance. Susceptible.

There are several major advantages to CTL that fit these criteria in unique ways. The first of which being the fact that CTL existed in second edition as well as third edition and 3.5. We know the update to 3e happened at some point in the world, evidenced by leftover 2e monsters, such as the pit near the Talisman of Dorukan, and Franklin the Piercer. In all publications for the CTL, all are powerful enough and fit the scenes at the times they occur.
Second, the Tower Scene. CTL has a feature that inflicts a negative level whenever they hit, and no drain is visible upon Miko nor Windstriker. Of note is that the actual impact is not actually seen. Miko of all people would rather return home to warn of the doom than complain about a negative level. Plus, home is where healers with Restoration are. Additionally, CTL possesses a condition where a creature who is snatched (Automatically rolled grapple on hit) and flung, the victim flies 110 feet, superseding the normal rules for snatch. The text makes no mention of what to do with regards to obstacles, so Giant may have ruled that RAW would be funniest and simply had Miko and Windstriker pass through the walls to complete the 110 feet. Alternatively, the feat Awesome Blow might have been in play, though this seems less plausible in a game of "who can hit the lightest".
Furthermore, the CTL has +34 to Knowledge (arcana), which could explain the otherwise inexplicable flashes of insight into Tsukiko's half spell and the nature of the Astral. As Elan demonstrated with a Bardic Knowledge roll in #260 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html), a successful roll can grant one knowledge they might not have obtained otherwise.
It is unknown how long CTLs live, but being a type of dragon, it can be assumed to be an extremely long time. If it followed a similar growth period as true dragons, it would remain a juvenile until roughly 50 years old, where it would still be in the Medium category, easily keeping them in the box and umbrella. This also explains how they would stay juvenile for 30+ years, and why they are always hungry, as they are still growing.
Finally, his environment when discovered would have been odd, normally lairing in underground sepulchers, but their terrain is listed as "any". Perhaps there was a sepulcher near where he was found that he had stumbled out of? Pure speculation, but nothing that refutes the facts.


Misc. Points-
Oona's "kebab" comment is apt for a rotting flesh monster
Dragons are a well known form, but a rotting linnorm might throw Big Game Hunters for a loop.
MiTD would truly be tiny compared to his father, who would be 330' long (From 2e stats)
CTLs would be able to look around with their necks rather than turning their whole body around

In conclusion, I feel that the basis of the Corpse Tearer Linnorm fits most, if not all, criteria to both an extremely high degree of accuracy and precision. The thematic feeling of such a monstrous and clearly dangerous creature seems to fit without needing to resort to any kind of a stretch.

Edit: Reread Oona's exact comment and realized I misunderstood the subject.

[dmc91356]

Interesting. Does this fling ability you mention essentially take the place of the idea that a certain level of strength is needed to blow Miko and her horse through the wall and into the distance? Otherwise, I fail to see how a 36 strength at adulthood can be scaled down to account for the juvenile age and still provide enough oomph to support the tower scene. If this ability is something separate and can be ascribed to a juvenile of the species, then maybe you have a way around that which would be cool.

Food for thought.

(Although, if the MiTD has cleric levels for miracle, doesn't it also have cleric levels to create undead, despite Redcloak's statement about the MiTD not having such levels when he was asking to help make zombies . . . ?)

[Kastor]

Interesting. Does this fling ability you mention essentially take the place of the idea that a certain level of strength is needed to blow Miko and her horse through the wall and into the distance? Otherwise, I fail to see how a 36 strength at adulthood can be scaled down to account for the juvenile age and still provide enough oomph to support the tower scene. If this ability is something separate and can be ascribed to a juvenile of the species, then maybe you have a way around that which would be cool.

Food for thought.

(Although, if the MiTD has cleric levels for miracle, doesn't it also have cleric levels to create undead, despite Redcloak's statement about the MiTD not having such levels when he was asking to help make zombies . . . ?)

Again, if taken literally, the ability would simply circumvent the effects of obstacles. This would, of course, be incredibly silly, but rule of funny means that its on the table. It would even explain why Windstriker lands precisely on top of Miko. And as a feat effect, it would not scale with age.

As for the cleric argument, I need to review the exact phrasing in the scene. What strip does that scene occur in?

[Kastor]

(Although, if the MiTD has cleric levels for miracle, doesn't it also have cleric levels to create undead, despite Redcloak's statement about the MiTD not having such levels when he was asking to help make zombies . . . ?)

Found it.
While Redcloak expresses doubt, possibly because MitD is young, or Redcloak merely thinks he is lazy, or maybe he just doesn't have absolute knowledge of MitD's capabilities. MitD emphatically says that he can do such a feat. I simply do not think that scene is proof that MitD does not, in fact, have those capabilities.

Redcloak asks if he gained 5 levels in cleric, not if he HAS five levels in cleric. MitD likely took the question literally and answered literally.

[InvisibleBison]

There is a big problem with the idea that MitD is a corpse tearer linnorm: Said creature is from MM2, and Redcloak has a copy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) of that book. If MitD were a linnorm, Redcloak wouldn't think that MitD needed to gain five levels of cleric to be able to cast animate dead.

[Kastor]

There is a big problem with the idea that MitD is a corpse tearer linnorm: Said creature is from MM2, and Redcloak has a copy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) of that book. If MitD were a linnorm, Redcloak wouldn't think that MitD needed to gain five levels of cleric to be able to cast animate dead.

That is... a distressingly excellent counter-argument.
I'm still going to ask that my guess be placed as Corpse Tearer Linnorm for the time being, but I'm going to have to think about that. Thanks for the note!

[Crusher]

I would like to change my guess from Athasian Nightmare Beast (old version) to Corpse Tearer Linnorm.

I've been ruminating on what my guess should be for a while and ANB hasn't sat right for a while, but CTL feels better in a lot of regards, and I'd like to make a case for CTL. First I will outline basic argument, then move on to major draws.

First off, does it fit the big scenes?
1, Escape: Feasible by access to Miracle through Cleric Spellcasting.
2, Tower Scene: AC 33 and DR/20 magic. Strength 36, special flung condition.
3, Circus: Resembles "rotting flesh", yet has 19 CHA. No relevant passive abilities nor active powers.
4, Impossible categories: Is technically a kind of dragon. CR 28.
5, Publish timeline: Existed in 2e and published in MM2 for 3e in 2001.
6, size: is Gargantuan, with a just-below-target 36.
7, Mind effects: has no immunities, merely high resistance. Susceptible.

There are several major advantages to CTL that fit these criteria in unique ways. The first of which being the fact that CTL existed in second edition as well as third edition and 3.5. We know the update to 3e happened at some point in the world, evidenced by leftover 2e monsters, such as the pit near the Talisman of Dorukan, and Franklin the Piercer. In all publications for the CTL, all are powerful enough and fit the scenes at the times they occur.
Second, the Tower Scene. CTL has a feature that inflicts a negative level whenever they hit, and no drain is visible upon Miko nor Windstriker. Of note is that the actual impact is not actually seen. Miko of all people would rather return home to warn of the doom than complain about a negative level. Plus, home is where healers with Restoration are. Additionally, CTL possesses a condition where a creature who is snatched (Automatically rolled grapple on hit) and flung, the victim flies 110 feet, superseding the normal rules for snatch. The text makes no mention of what to do with regards to obstacles, so Giant may have ruled that RAW would be funniest and simply had Miko and Windstriker pass through the walls to complete the 110 feet. Alternatively, the feat Awesome Blow might have been in play, though this seems less plausible in a game of "who can hit the lightest".
Furthermore, the CTL has +34 to Knowledge (arcana), which could explain the otherwise inexplicable flashes of insight into Tsukiko's half spell and the nature of the Astral. As Elan demonstrated with a Bardic Knowledge roll in #260 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html), a successful roll can grant one knowledge they might not have obtained otherwise.
It is unknown how long CTLs live, but being a type of dragon, it can be assumed to be an extremely long time. If it followed a similar growth period as true dragons, it would remain a juvenile until roughly 50 years old, where it would still be in the Medium category, easily keeping them in the box and umbrella. This also explains how they would stay juvenile for 30+ years, and why they are always hungry, as they are still growing.
Finally, his environment when discovered would have been odd, normally lairing in underground sepulchers, but their terrain is listed as "any". Perhaps there was a sepulcher near where he was found that he had stumbled out of? Pure speculation, but nothing that refutes the facts.


Misc. Points-
Oona's "kebab" comment is apt for a rotting flesh monster
Dragons are a well known form, but a rotting linnorm might throw Big Game Hunters for a loop.
MiTD would truly be tiny compared to his father, who would be 330' long (From 2e stats)
CTLs would be able to look around with their necks rather than turning their whole body around

In conclusion, I feel that the basis of the Corpse Tearer Linnorm fits most, if not all, criteria to both an extremely high degree of accuracy and precision. The thematic feeling of such a monstrous and clearly dangerous creature seems to fit without needing to resort to any kind of a stretch.

Edit: Reread Oona's exact comment and realized I misunderstood the subject.

Your guess has been swapped!

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm resurrecting the Hunting Horror. When Xykon refers to dwarves being a delicacy for the MitD, he might have dwarves confused with Lovecraftian ghouls, who live deep underground like dwarves. Lovecraftian ghouls have connections to Nyarlathotep through the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, Nyarlathotep takes on the form of the Haunter in the Dark, which is a giant hunting horror. I'm not suggesting MitD is Nyarlathotep, just an average Hunting Horror, who are servants of Nyarlathotep.

Rich exhausted all the good material on Hunting Horrors in the early books so the hints are getting more outre.

[InvisibleBison]

When Xykon refers to dwarves being a delicacy for the MitD, he might have dwarves confused with Lovecraftian ghouls, who live deep underground like dwarves.

No he couldn't have. The two are nothing alike.

[Tubercular Ox]

No he couldn't have. The two are nothing alike.

Read the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath. Where they live is practically the Mines of Moria.

And then the MitD says, "I don't... think so," because he knows Xykon is wrong, Lovecraft's ghouls aren't dwarves, but he has the hesitation and the thoughtful line because he knows Xykon got it from somewhere.

And then Xykon makes a zombie reference, which seems 100% unforced, but putting zombie next to dwarf is what helped me think of ghouls, so serendipity I guess.

[InvisibleBison]

Read the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath. Where they live is practically the Mines of Moria.

A single point of similarity between two otherwise extremely different kinds of beings does not make it plausible that Xykon would confuse one for the other.

[Tubercular Ox]

A single point of similarity between two otherwise extremely different kinds of beings does not make it plausible that Xykon would confuse one for the other.

Sure, I agree. I think this was written to be re-read later after the reveal.

I see a lot of the best arguments for the hunting horror have fallen off the main chart, let me summarize:

The Hunting Horror is described in its monster entry as the “Haunter in the Dark”, making it the best major candidate for a satisfying reveal for the normies. Picture Elan saying, “You mean the Monster in the Dark was a Haunter in the Dark all along?”

The Hunting Horror was published in d20 Call of Cthulhu in 2002, before the 2004 deadline, and a little bit before Rich first started creating published content for WotC, with an early project being a Monster Manual. If WotC gave him a copy of a bunch of recent books so he could research existing monsters for possible inclusion in the Monster Manual, then Rich has means, motive, and opportunity to be reading d20 CoC at around the right time.

The HH’s listed climate/terrain is any nighttime or sunless place, so not the jungle in the middle of the day. It’s also a d20 CoC creature, so he should be in the part of the world where CoC creatures hang out, which is likely a bit distant from the part of the world where the Final Fantasy people hang out.

It’s weird, HH’s take 3d6 damage from sunlight and 1d6 damage from torchlight, but they have 10 fast healing that’s not disabled by light, so there’s no reason for either to cause panic in the MitD.

All CoC creatures have an insanity aura that drives people mad. The HH also has an aura that nauseates people who are too close. Neither are activated abilities. When the MitD is shown off to the audience in Start of Darkness, the number of insane and/or nauseated people are statistically correct for his save DCs.

The one guy has never seen anything like it because he’s a d20 CoC creature and not in a main line book. The goblins are immune to insanity effects because all monsters in CoC are explicitly immune to it.

Xykon tells the MitD to eat Redcloak and spit out an amulet. This is an attack pattern of the HH: bite, improved grab, masticate, swallow whole, and then a vomit attack that fires a swallowed character at another.

On this note, he also has a tail with improved grab, which is enough appendages to pull the rope. (otherwise he struggles because he’s limbless by default, although every HH is a little different physically) He also makes a comment about pushing vs pulling. This is a clue because the HH has an SLA that lets him push enemies and an SLA that lets him grapple enemies but no SLA that lets him pull enemies.

The HH has a lot of SLA’s, but the CoC book encourages giving any monster spells as well, if they suit the plot. The CoC book also lists, as a rule, that no spell should be used exactly as printed nor have exactly the same name. So when I say “Escape!” is a renamed Word of Recall with fudged parameters that serve the plot, that is RAW and RAI for a Call of Cthulhu spell, as well as fitting for Rich’s attitude to the rules.

Spells in CoC come with ability damage to discourage you from using them frequently. Word of Recall causes 4 Int + 4 Wis damage, and I argue this is why the MitD falls asleep straight after using it. (SLA’s ignore this penalty.)

The HH can turn into a smoke form at will, which is why Miko’s attacks “tickle.” The HH has strength 34, which is up there. It’s his highest stat, and therefore a good one for Rich to want to show off. It would be problematic to show this in combat, because the HH needs actions to switch in and out of smoke form, but the MitD bought himself time to switch out of smoke form and into a solid form by asking to play a game.

Other stats: Str 34, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 21

Personally I’m skeptical it matters, but Gates figure in CoC. They are “a circle or pattern on a floor or another horizontal surface”. They’re permanent and they teleport you around. There are a number of spells that manipulate them. HH’s are supposed to be deeply versed in magic since they serve Nyarlathotep, so the idea that a HH would think of this kind of gate first isn’t implausible.

The STOP! command could be either the suggestion he can cast at will, the 10d10 sonic Roar he can use every 1d4 rounds, or both together.

The HH is a Dragon. The stomp is the Shock Wave feat:


Shock Wave
( Draconomicon, p. 73)

You can strike the ground with your tail so hard it knocks other creatures down.

Prerequisite
Power Attack (PH) , STR 13, dragon, size Large or larger,

Benefit
You may, as a full-round action, strike a solid surface with your tail and create a shock wave that radiates out from your space and continues for a number of feet equal to 5 × your racial Hit Dice. Make a bull rush attack by rolling once regardless of how many creatures are in the radius. Every creature in the radius makes a Strength check and compares it to your roll. Those who fail their opposed checks are knocked down.

Special
Structures and unattended objects at least partially within the shock wave take damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength bonus


I think the MitD has this feat strictly to hint that it is a Dragon.

So the summary:
Haunter in the Dark. Seriously. It's called the haunter in the dark.
Right place, right time for Rich to read about it.
Statistically accurate appearance
One of the only suggestions to have a RAW+RAI "Escape!" spell.
Most clues (admittedly not the dwarf thing) are of the, "Oh, hey. This is on the stat block, let's show it off" variety.

[InvisibleBison]

Sure, I agree. I think this was written to be re-read later after the reveal.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you agreeing that it's not plausible for Xykon to confuse dwarves and Lovecraftian ghouls? How would it make sense in retrospect if it doesn't make sense at all?




The Hunting Horror is described in its monster entry as the “Haunter in the Dark”, making it the best major candidate for a satisfying reveal for the normies. Picture Elan saying, “You mean the Monster in the Dark was a Haunter in the Dark all along?”

I'm pretty sure "Monster in the Darkness" is just a fan term, not one that occurs in the comic.


All CoC creatures have an insanity aura that drives people mad. The HH also has an aura that nauseates people who are too close. Neither are activated abilities. When the MitD is shown off to the audience in Start of Darkness, the number of insane and/or nauseated people are statistically correct for his save DCs.

I'd like to know how you calculated that. In particular, we don't know any of the audience's save bonuses, so I don't know how you could conclude that the amount of affected people is statistically correct. Also, I feel obliged to point out that no one in that scene was driven mad.

And I don't think a creature that has a good chance of driving anyone who sees it insane makes for a particularly good circus exhibit.


The goblins are immune to insanity effects because all monsters in CoC are explicitly immune to it.

The whole point of OOTS is that goblins aren't monsters.


Xykon tells the MitD to eat Redcloak and spit out an amulet. This is an attack pattern of the HH: bite, improved grab, masticate, swallow whole, and then a vomit attack that fires a swallowed character at another.

Xykon doesn't know what MitD is when he gives him that order, so whether or not it overlaps with something MitD is capable of doing is irrelevant.


On this note, he also has a tail with improved grab, which is enough appendages to pull the rope.

Is it? Are there examples of creatures with improved grab on an ostensibly non-prehensile limb using that limb to manipulate objects?


He also makes a comment about pushing vs pulling. This is a clue because the HH has an SLA that lets him push enemies and an SLA that lets him grapple enemies but no SLA that lets him pull enemies.

The rope isn't his enemy, though. It's not even a creature. Can this SLA also be used to manipulate objects? Note that when talking about the relative ease of pushing and pulling MitD specifically says "something", not "someone", so his experiences are not based on pushing and pulling creatures.


The HH has a lot of SLA’s, but the CoC book encourages giving any monster spells as well, if they suit the plot. The CoC book also lists, as a rule, that no spell should be used exactly as printed nor have exactly the same name. So when I say “Escape!” is a renamed Word of Recall with fudged parameters that serve the plot, that is RAW and RAI for a Call of Cthulhu spell, as well as fitting for Rich’s attitude to the rules.

Having one of the most distinctive things that MitD do be something that Rich added to his statblock strikes me as not really being compatible with what he's said about MitD's identity being guessable.


Spells in CoC come with ability damage to discourage you from using them frequently. Word of Recall causes 4 Int + 4 Wis damage, and I argue this is why the MitD falls asleep straight after using it. (SLA’s ignore this penalty.)

Ability damage doesn't make you sleepy, though. Unless you're positing that MitD only has an Int and/or Wis score of 4, so the damage caused him to pass out, but MitD is still awake immediately after the escape, so I don't think that works.


The HH can turn into a smoke form at will, which is why Miko’s attacks “tickle.”

I'm not sure why the MitD would have turned into smoke when trying to stop Miko from escaping. Also, is a hunting horror in smoke form able to be tickled? It doesn't exactly have the appropriate anatomical features to be tickled in the conventional fashion.

[Peelee]

The Hunting Horror is described in its monster entry as the “Haunter in the Dark”, making it the best major candidate for a satisfying reveal for the normies. Picture Elan saying, “You mean the Monster in the Dark was a Haunter in the Dark all along?

All other issues aside, picturing Elan saying that would make me think, "really?! Something that blindingly obvious and all those nerds couldn't put it together until it was nearly over?!"

Speaking solely for me, that would be the opposite of satisfying.

[Mike Havran]

I would like to join the guessing crew. Put me down for Protean club, please :smallsmile:

[Ruck]

I would like to join the guessing crew. Put me down for Protean club, please :smallsmile:

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

[Tzardok]

There aren't. It just looks like it, but in truth it's always the same protean posting in different guises. :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

There aren't. It just looks like it, but in truth it's always the same protean posting in different guises. :smalltongue:

Is it an Italian Protean?

[b_jonas]

I'm pretty sure "Monster in the Darkness" is just a fan term, not one that occurs in the comic. The “Monster (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html)” part is irrelevant here. Kodrog in #259 calls him “the thing in the darkness” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html); and Redcloak calls him “our friend in the dark” when praising Xykon in #376 3rd (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Is it an Italian Protean?

It's a Protean, posing as an italian, posing as different guises! What don't you get about this!

(or maybe it's just posing as a Protean?)

[No good @ names]

There is a big problem with the idea that MitD is a corpse tearer linnorm: Said creature is from MM2, and Redcloak has a copy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) of that book. If MitD were a linnorm, Redcloak wouldn't think that MitD needed to gain five levels of cleric to be able to cast animate dead.

That’s some good recall. You lot continually surprise me.


Potential easy, although meta, explanation is Rich forgot about that in that particular comic. Similarly Redcloak, as nerdy as he is, has nothing on this forum, and also doesn’t have the internet to correct him so he could be forgiven for it if he missed it too.

Boooo! Boring explanation I know, sorry.

[Ruck]

It's a Protean, posing as an italian, posing as different guises! What don't you get about this!

(or maybe it's just posing as a Protean?)

He's a cipher, wrapped in an enigma, smothered in secret sauce. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nZGjU245qM)

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you agreeing that it's not plausible for Xykon to confuse dwarves and Lovecraftian ghouls? How would it make sense in retrospect if it doesn't make sense at all?

This isn't evidence that the MitD is a hunting horror, it's just a tidbit to show that the HH is not disqualified by Xykon's statement. If it doesn't make sense without first believing it's a HH, that's fine.



I'm pretty sure "Monster in the Darkness" is just a fan term, not one that occurs in the comic.

Here’s what Rich’s first impression of the Hunting Horror would’ve been:

“Hunting Horrors haunt the dark places of the universe, from which they are called up at the whim of their lord to hunt down any who have offended him.”

“Some maintain that they are actually made of incarnate darkness”

“Hunting Horrors exist to seek out prey, and are compelled to either destroy their victims utterly or fetch them back to their dark master.”

And while that doesn't sound like the MitD fifteen years later, at the time of strip #100, the MitD was still reveling in killing people and sharing villainous laughs with Redcloak.

This is my whole argument. The MitD is the HH because the HH has the nature and purpose of the MitD at the time Rich was looking for a base monster. Everything else is either Rich rubbing our noses in it or setting us up for an, "Aha!" moment after the reveal.

Every candidate should meet this standard.



I'd like to know how you calculated that. In particular, we don't know any of the audience's save bonuses, so I don't know how you could conclude that the amount of affected people is statistically correct. Also, I feel obliged to point out that no one in that scene was driven mad.


I humbly retract the comment. The bottom line is, yes, I made assumptions. I said the three people without lines around their eyes count as unaffected, and the guy who is throwing up was overaffected, as was the guy who is closing his eyes and refusing to look. I realize now those aren't going to carry here. And then there are more assumptions, so bleah. But in my heart I still believe! >_>



And I don't think a creature that has a good chance of driving anyone who sees it insane makes for a particularly good circus exhibit.

CoC Sanity rules are complicated and more suited to slowly creeping horror than downing a PC in one round. The victims are unhappy because their assumptions about how the world works are being challenged in unusual ways.
Everyone is going to recover, although the two I mentioned may need a little counselling to get over it. And the circus people are fine because there's a repeat-exposure rule that makes it so one monster can't take you out just by standing around for a long time.



The whole point of OOTS is that goblins aren't monsters.


Now, yes, but that's relatively new. It wasn't a huge deal in 2007, when Start of Darkness was published. Yes, Start of Darkness was written to make Redcloak sympathetic, but he was still evil. Also, whatever story Rich is telling, goblins are explicitly listed as being immune to sanity loss.



Xykon doesn't know what MitD is when he gives him that order, so whether or not it overlaps with something MitD is capable of doing is irrelevant.


Xykon only has to see him do it once to know he can do it again. And the story I'm telling is that Rich saw the HH could eat things and spit them out again, then decided to write a joke about it so he could point at it later to say he was hinting. The ability comes first, then the scenario.



Is it? Are there examples of creatures with improved grab on an ostensibly non-prehensile limb using that limb to manipulate objects?


Yes, the Hunting Horror. It uses its tail to carry things its master asks it to fetch, especially people, and it's nimble enough to eat things it's holding in its tail. There are rules for this in its monster entry. Once the HH can eat an ice cream cone, we're pretty much done with manual dexterity.



The rope isn't his enemy, though. It's not even a creature. Can this SLA also be used to manipulate objects? Note that when talking about the relative ease of pushing and pulling MitD specifically says "something", not "someone", so his experiences are not based on pushing and pulling creatures.


The ability comes first, the scenario later. The rope scene exists so the MitD can comment on his pushing and holding abilities, and whether or not he can use the push and hold on the rope is irrelevant to the joke, which exists to hint at the MitD's abilities. All that is important for the physicality of the scene is that the HH is not disqualified by it, and he's not, because he has a tail and bite that can both hold on to things from round to round. Personally I see the MitD transferring the rope from mouth to tail and back, but obviously that's artistic interpretation with no weight.



Having one of the most distinctive things that MitD do be something that Rich added to his statblock strikes me as not really being compatible with what he's said about MitD's identity being guessable.


The rule works like this:
“Spells should always have an aura of mystery and strangeness over them. Unlike in a high fantasy role-playing game, spells should never seem easy, mechanical, mundane - or safe.”

“It is common for spells to be found with slightly different parameters than those mentioned below. GMs can modify these spells slightly (or dramatically) for effect.”

“Never use the same name for a spell twice.”

Escape is mysterious and strange. We could have the side argument right now over whether it is a named spell that is being cast, or a word the MitD is shouting while activating some other abilitiy. We have compared it to every teleport effect in the game, and every one is either not up to the job or so powerful one wonders why Rich would choose to use it this way. No one knows what this spell is or how it works. We are unhappy because our assumptions about how the world works are being challenged in unusual ways.

Escape is not easy. The MitD has to struggle to cast it. It is not mechanical or mundane, rather, it drives the plot at the point it exists, while simultaneously driving forward the MitD's character arc. And it's not safe, MitD put himself in serious danger in order to cast it. (He promptly ducked all that danger a few strips later, but his ducking it is something we complain about because it wasn't a safe situation.)

This is not a thing Rich added to his statblock on a whim, it is something Rich planned with great care and strict adherence to the rules. And I swear, I think he did it just so he can look us in the eye later and say, "But I followed the rules."

The important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Escape is a renamed CoC Word of Recall with the Target adjusted not to include the MitD. And it curb stomped the plot when it showed up, as the rules demand it must before they allowed Rich to change the parameters. The only argument against it is some trust we have that Rich won't follow the rules as written. I get that there's a fine line between something he made up and something someone else made up, but he warned us about that.

(Further note: CoC Word of Recall lets you choose the sanctuary at the time of casting, but I don't Know if that matters if Rich changed the gist of the rules to say "Escape to a sanctuary." Also, Word of Recall is the only teleport effect in CoC that's not hitched to using a permanent gate)



Ability damage doesn't make you sleepy, though. Unless you're positing that MitD only has an Int and/or Wis score of 4, so the damage caused him to pass out, but MitD is still awake immediately after the escape, so I don't think that works.


Okay. I retract it.



I'm not sure why the MitD would have turned into smoke when trying to stop Miko from escaping. Also, is a hunting horror in smoke form able to be tickled? It doesn't exactly have the appropriate anatomical features to be tickled in the conventional fashion.
Why wouldn’t he turn into smoke? It’s at will. And again, I’m claiming that Rich saw “smoke form” and “34 strength” on the character sheet and tried to figure out how to show that off in the story somehow, not that the MitD had an encounter with Miko and Rich tried to game it out. The ability comes first. The scenario is written to fit the ability.


All other issues aside, picturing Elan saying that would make me think, "really?! Something that blindingly obvious and all those nerds couldn't put it together until it was nearly over?!"

Speaking solely for me, that would be the opposite of satisfying.

I'm happy we agree it's blindingly obvious, but we didn't figure this out until it was nearly over. I've known this since 2014, and the only reason I know is because someone in these threads suggested a Chaosium Hunting Horror because it was a creature of darkness that killed things for its master, years before I showed up. My novel contribution was to look up the d20 version of the monster.

People got hung up on the Escape spell, even though it's RAW and RAI and consistent with the personality Rich presents to us when he talks about the MitD.

But back to the topic, it has to be satisfying to the normies, not us. See also: Darkness incarnate that slays for its master.

[Peelee]

This I'm happy we agree it's blindingly obvious

I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought it is blindingly obvious. I do not, and I think that it being so incredibly on-the-nose while masquerading as a mystery would writing at a significantly lesser level than I expect from the comic. Which isn't to say that it can't be, but I sincerely doubt it is.

[Tubercular Ox]

I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought it is blindingly obvious. I do not, and I think that it being so incredibly on-the-nose while masquerading as a mystery would writing at a significantly lesser level than I expect from the comic. Which isn't to say that it can't be, but I sincerely doubt it is.

What kind of argument would I have to make to counter, "it's incredibly on-the-nose," as an objection?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here’s what Rich’s first impression of the Hunting Horror would’ve been:

“Hunting Horrors haunt the dark places of the universe, from which they are called up at the whim of their lord to hunt down any who have offended him.”

“Some maintain that they are actually made of incarnate darkness”

“Hunting Horrors exist to seek out prey, and are compelled to either destroy their victims utterly or fetch them back to their dark master.”

And while that doesn't sound like the MitD fifteen years later, at the time of strip #100, the MitD was still reveling in killing people and sharing villainous laughs with Redcloak.

It doesn't sound like MitD 15 years later, and more damningly, it doesn't sound like MitD then (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) either. MitD does not haunt the darkness, it wants out. It is not made of darkness at all, nor has anyone ever suggested he might. And he most definitely does not seek out prey, does not try to destroy victims and has not so much as fetched the mail for Xykon.

GW

[Tubercular Ox]

It doesn't sound like MitD 15 years later, and more damningly, it doesn't sound like MitD then (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) either. MitD does not haunt the darkness, it wants out. It is not made of darkness at all, nor has anyone ever suggested he might. And he most definitely does not seek out prey, does not try to destroy victims and has not so much as fetched the mail for Xykon.

GW

Let's be fair and look at all the contenders together:

Glabrezu tempt victims into ruin, but they lure their prey with power or wealth rather than passion.

Hagunemnons, also known as Proteans, are a species constantly in fluid motion- even from birth they are constantly changing shape and taking on attributes of that which they imagine and those around them. They are the penultimate shapeshifters, fused with chaos so that they have no true form. A protean is a hateful being for this reason, scouring the cosmos for new forms to take.

A death slaad that survives for more than a century retreats into isolation for at least a year. It returns as a larger, stronger form of Slaad -- the white -- and devotes most of its time and attention to the study of yet more lethal art.

A white slaad that survives for more than a century retreats into isolation for at least a year. It returns as a larger, stronger form of Slaad -- the black. The power of a black Slaad eclipses that of some abominations and many of the oldest wyrms.

Uvuudaums were malevolent creatures from an alien plane. These were strange and malevolent creatures. They took delight in revealing the existence of their horrifying, madness-inducing homeplace to more structured realities

Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Plea’s progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures

Hunting Horrors haunt the dark places of the universe, from which they are called up at the whim of their lord to hunt down any who have offended him. Some maintain that they are actually made of incarnate darkness

And remember the scenario is Rich looking for a good monster to have come out of the shadows, and Rich isn't big on game mechanics, so this may be all he sees of a monster before moving on.

[Peelee]

What kind of argument would I have to make to counter, "it's incredibly on-the-nose," as an objection?
I would characterize it as too on the nose, to the point that I would roll my eyes at a reveal essentially being "the monster in the darkness is really a monster in the darkness!" That being the case, there's not much you could do to counter it, as it's personal taste. But that shouldn't be a terribly big concern for you, since I only brought that up because as I said originally:

All other issues aside
The creature in the darkness really being a creature in the darkness makes me roll my eyes and be dissatisfied, but it's far from my only issue with it, which others have already expressed.

[Crusher]

I would like to join the guessing crew. Put me down for Protean club, please :smallsmile:

Welcome to the Protean People! Platoon? Party? Partnership? Patrol? Pack?

I'm thinking "Pack" but I'm open to suggestions.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let's be fair and look at all the contenders together:

I suspect you think you have made a point, but if so I'm not seeing it. For one, I would disagree with the relevance of those particular characterizations as they apply to MitD. For another, even if I were to agree they are relevant (and I bothered to confirm they are accurate, which I have not and will not), all those still would present fewer issues, AFAICT. You're the one that brought it up as a defence of the HH. I merely pointed out that if that's the arena you want to play in, it is a really poor evidence in HH's favour.

But more importantly, I intensely dislike the approach of arguing not by defending your own pick or addressing any objections but by instead switching to "whataboutisms" about other candidates. That is not in any way "fair", it is changing the topic.

Grey Wolf

[Jacky720]

I have three minor suggestions/nitpicks to the original posts:
- Section 1c misspells "their" in the section on Miracle.
- Section 2d misspells "templates" in the section on Bingosaurus.

But more productive:
- Section 1e suggests he is confused by the word "gate" as meaning the spell gate. I believe this is debunked by #1264 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1264.html), where he does not recognize the spell, and should be amended or removed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have three minor suggestions/nitpicks to the original posts:
- Section 1c misspells "their" in the section on Miracle.
- Section 2d misspells "templates" in the section on Bingosaurus.
Found the latter; you'll need to tell me how the former is mispelled, since a quick check & a search for common mispelling of their has produced no results.
Fixed both.


But more productive:
- Section 1e suggests he is confused by the word "gate" as meaning the spell gate. I believe this is debunked by #1264 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1264.html), where he does not recognize the spell, and should be amended or removed.

Gate has (at least) three meanings: physical door; hole in reality; & name (and in OotS verbal component) of a spell. The argument is that MitD is familiar not with the spell but with the result of that spell (and a number of others): a hole in reality (for example, because his dad once took him through one). Him expecting a hole in reality and being pointed to a big wooden thing against a wall is related to, but distinct from, the latest "oh, you were pointing at a spell all along".

GW

[Jacky720]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Fyraltari]

Welcome to the Protean People! Platoon? Party? Partnership? Patrol? Pack?

I'm thinking "Pack" but I'm open to suggestions.

Protean Pack is the best name as long as no-one crosses the scenes.

[Tubercular Ox]

I suspect you think you have made a point, but if so I'm not seeing it. For one, I would disagree with the relevance of those particular characterizations as they apply to MitD. For another, even if I were to agree they are relevant (and I bothered to confirm they are accurate, which I have not and will not), all those still would present fewer issues, AFAICT. You're the one that brought it up as a defence of the HH. I merely pointed out that if that's the arena you want to play in, it is a really poor evidence in HH's favour.

But more importantly, I intensely dislike the approach of arguing not by defending your own pick or addressing any objections but by instead switching to "whataboutisms" about other candidates. That is not in any way "fair", it is changing the topic.

Grey Wolf

It’s a gag comic, all the monsters are topsy turvy. Do you think Sunny is not a beholder because it isn’t obsessed with the imperfections of lesser creatures?

Rich’s excuse for claiming something satisfying is going to come out of this is that he’s been tailoring every hint to the MitD for the past 15 years. That means none of the scenes that hint at the MitD were conceived of at the time Rich chose it, and Rich was prepared to write completely different scenes if a different monster caught his eye.

So what monster caught Rich’s eye is independent of its abilities. This is confirmed when Rich tells us that he decides to use a monster first, then looks up its abilities.

Therefore, fitting the big scenes is not a complete argument that a creature is the MitD. It’s support. It says, “This option is not disqualified by the big scenes.”

The keystone of any argument that a creature is the MitD has to be that it appealed to Rich at the time he was choosing the MitD, without referring to the monster’s stats, closely enough that he was willing to wing the personality, just like he wings it for every other monster in the series.

We’re not going to find a monster manual entry that says, “Lives in darkness, hates it.” Rich wings it when it comes to personality. Because of this “wing it” factor, there is no way to judge any of the candidates except in contrast to each other.

The HH’s argument is that it lives in the darkness until its master calls it forth to kill people. That’s what caught Rich’s eye, that’s what made him look up stats, that’s what made him start spackling over the flaws.

I used online references for the other contenders. Is there a book version of any of them with a better hook for Rich?

[Sir_Norbert]

And remember the scenario is Rich looking for a good monster to have come out of the shadows, and Rich isn't big on game mechanics, so this may be all he sees of a monster before moving on.

I believe that what Rich actually said -- although a look through the Index of the Giant's Comments and I have been unable to find it -- was along the lines of: some time around strip #100 when he decided there would be an overarching storyline and planned the whole thing out, he decided on MitD's identity as part of that. His decision does not belong with the earlier, no overarching plot, phase of the comic.


But more importantly, I intensely dislike the approach of arguing not by defending your own pick or addressing any objections but by instead switching to "whataboutisms" about other candidates. That is not in any way "fair", it is changing the topic.

But whatabout -- to layer one whataboutism inside another -- when the Protean Essay does the same thing, you're okay with that? :P

[hamishspence]

I believe that what Rich actually said -- although a look through the Index of the Giant's Comments and I have been unable to find it -- was along the lines of: some time around strip #100 when he decided there would be an overarching storyline and planned the whole thing out, he decided on MitD's identity as part of that. His decision does not belong with the earlier, no overarching plot, phase of the comic.
It's in the OP's first post right near the top - War & XPs was the source.



Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD


So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It’s a gag comic, all the monsters are topsy turvy. Do you think Sunny is not a beholder because it isn’t obsessed with the imperfections of lesser creatures?
Again: I'm not the one that claimed that


This is my whole argument. The MitD is the HH because the HH has the nature and purpose of the MitD at the time Rich was looking for a base monster.
That was you. You claimed that the HH description of its "nature and purpose" was "your whole argument". And, if I am to take you at your word, it is an extremely poor argument. It does not match MitD back when Rich decided what MitD was, and it does not match MitD today. That's the entirety of my counter argument.

That the descriptions plucked out from gods-knows-where for other random suggestions don't much fit either (but in some cases fit better) is neither here nor there.


Rich’s excuse for claiming something satisfying is going to come out of this is that he’s been tailoring every hint to the MitD for the past 15 years. That means none of the scenes that hint at the MitD were conceived of at the time Rich chose it, and Rich was prepared to write completely different scenes if a different monster caught his eye.
This is in fact not true, as hamishspence helpfully quoted. The story came first, then Rich picked a monster that would fit that story.


Therefore, fitting the big scenes is not a complete argument that a creature is the MitD. It’s support. It says, “This option is not disqualified by the big scenes.”
It is neither of those. It is a classification scheme.


The HH’s argument is that it lives in the darkness until its master calls it forth to kill people. That’s what caught Rich’s eye, that’s what made him look up stats, that’s what made him start spackling over the flaws.

Then, again, it is a poor argument. It is "he saw a random description that didn't fit MitD so far, and decided to change it entirely to make it fit". It is poor because it literally applies to every creature. You can literally pick any description that doesn't fit, and say "oh, it caught Rich's eye, who then proceeded to wholesale abandon it to make the underlying creature fit."

Now, if that's what you want to go for, I can't stop you. But it is a poor argument. Which is what I said at the start.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Rich’s excuse for claiming something satisfying is going to come out of this is that he’s been tailoring every hint to the MitD for the past 15 years. That means none of the scenes that hint at the MitD were conceived of at the time Rich chose it, and Rich was prepared to write completely different scenes if a different monster caught his eye.

So what monster caught Rich’s eye is independent of its abilities. This is confirmed when Rich tells us that he decides to use a monster first, then looks up its abilities.

Therefore, fitting the big scenes is not a complete argument that a creature is the MitD. It’s support. It says, “This option is not disqualified by the big scenes.”

The keystone of any argument that a creature is the MitD has to be that it appealed to Rich at the time he was choosing the MitD, without referring to the monster’s stats, closely enough that he was willing to wing the personality, just like he wings it for every other monster in the series.

We’re not going to find a monster manual entry that says, “Lives in darkness, hates it.” Rich wings it when it comes to personality. Because of this “wing it” factor, there is no way to judge any of the candidates except in contrast to each other.

The HH’s argument is that it lives in the darkness until its master calls it forth to kill people. That’s what caught Rich’s eye, that’s what made him look up stats, that’s what made him start spackling over the flaws.

But this argument could be used for any monster. "What caught Rich's eye about the Protean is that he wanted to write a story about a monster who changes and fights for good, so he picked a monster capable of changing physical form to parallel that change."

(Given all the references to MitD's immense power, and that he's supposed to be something even Xykon would consider a secret weapon, I don't see how you can confidently say "independent of its abilities" either.)

The essence of your argument seems to be that "The HH’s argument is that it lives in the darkness until its master calls it forth to kill people," but I think that's a thin bit of characterization to hang the whole thing on (plus, as Grey Wolf has said, the MitD doesn't actually enjoy or prefer living in the darkness).


But whatabout -- to layer one whataboutism inside another -- when the Protean Essay does the same thing, you're okay with that? :P

What "whataboutism" are you talking about there?

[Tubercular Ox]

But this argument could be used for any monster. "What caught Rich's eye about the Protean is that he wanted to write a story about a monster who changes and fights for good, so he picked a monster capable of changing physical form to parallel that change."

Yes it could. I highly recommend it. Then we could compare them, like this:
“The monster in the dark is a monster in the dark, waiting for an order to kill from its master.”
“The monster in the dark is an infinite shapeshifter, symbolizing a monster who changes from evil to good.”

I do want to stress that these quotes should be relative to strip #100 MitD. And then you have to go through the shopping metaphor and picture Rich deciding the MitD is going to be his outlet for that, instead of using the protean as a separate character. Maybe Belkar is a protean?

I’m clearly filled with sunk costs, if you want to write snippets for other monsters I’ll collect them.

PS: The Hunting Horror doesn’t have a listed alignment.

PPS: The shopping metaphor. You have an idea in your head, you go looking, you find something you like, and then you either commit to its flaws or move on. Try watching your thoughts the next time you're looking for a parking spot, there's a moment when "that spot" becomes "your spot" and it's weird. Rich went through that.



(Given all the references to MitD's immense power, and that he's supposed to be something even Xykon would consider a secret weapon, I don't see how you can confidently say "independent of its abilities" either.)
Okay, yes, some monsters are more expensive than others and Rich probably couldn't afford to put them in the plot.



The essence of your argument seems to be that "The HH’s argument is that it lives in the darkness until its master calls it forth to kill people," but I think that's a thin bit of characterization to hang the whole thing on (plus, as Grey Wolf has said, the MitD doesn't actually enjoy or prefer living in the darkness).


That’s the keystone, which is sort of a synonym for essence. There is a lot of support for the Hunting Horror, like not having an alignment, fitting the big scenes and being a plausible reason for a number of throwaway gags, and the keystone doesn't exist without support. But the support collapses without the keystone.

If Rich had no reason to check the price tag and try it on, he didn't.

[Kish]

Your thought processes remain unrecognizable to me.

Crusher, you've mislisted the ox's vote as Haunting Horror, not Hunting Horror.

[Ruck]

Yes it could. I highly recommend it. Then we could compare them, like this:
“The monster in the dark is a monster in the dark, waiting for an order to kill from its master.”
“The monster in the dark is an infinite shapeshifter, symbolizing a monster who changes from evil to good.”

OK... we could, but does that get us any closer to what it really is without understanding the rest of the choices Rich has made for the character?


I do want to stress that these quotes should be relative to strip #100 MitD. And then you have to go through the shopping metaphor and picture Rich deciding the MitD is going to be his outlet for that, instead of using the protean as a separate character. Maybe Belkar is a protean?


PPS: The shopping metaphor. You have an idea in your head, you go looking, you find something you like, and then you either commit to its flaws or move on. Try watching your thoughts the next time you're looking for a parking spot, there's a moment when "that spot" becomes "your spot" and it's weird. Rich went through that.

I'm not really following your thought process here. Rich laid out how the story would go years ago, and what the MITD is is part of that story. I don't understand what the parking spot metaphor has to do with the choices that best fit for the story he wants to tell. I really don't understand this sentence or what it means in terms of describing the choices Rich has made:


And then you have to go through the shopping metaphor and picture Rich deciding the MitD is going to be his outlet for that, instead of using the protean as a separate character.


Okay, yes, some monsters are more expensive than others and Rich probably couldn't afford to put them in the plot.

I don't understand what you mean by this at all.


That’s the keystone, which is sort of a synonym for essence. There is a lot of support for the Hunting Horror, like not having an alignment, fitting the big scenes and being a plausible reason for a number of throwaway gags, and the keystone doesn't exist without support. But the support collapses without the keystone.

If Rich had no reason to check the price tag and try it on, he didn't.

I think there are a number of reasons in the big scenes it does not fit very well, as covered in the FBS roundup at the top of the thread. And, again, if the keystone of your argument is "The monster is already in the darkness, so it's going to be a monster that lives in the darkness" without regard to how the rest of the story fits or whether that fits Rich's intentions for the character, that seems pretty weak to me.

[Tubercular Ox]

OK... we could, but does that get us any closer to what it really is without understanding the rest of the choices Rich has made for the character?
Yes and no. It brings us closer, but we do have to try and understand the rest of the choices Rich made. There’s a tendency for all of us, anywhere, not just Order of the Stick fans, to discount a lot of evidence by dismissing one detail at a time. It’s a lot like https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html except people have mildly interesting arguments instead of naked bluffs. (And I’m not suggesting that strip is evidence of anything other than a gag that’s convenient for me to look at again.)


I don't understand what you mean by this at all.
I had a lot to say, realized it was bloviating, tried to cut it down, and really, really should’ve just started over. I’m sorry. The bottom line is I’m a Rich-centric person. What makes me happiest is when I can tell a story in my head about how Rich went from whatever was on the character sheet to whatever scenario he put on paper. For picking the MitD, I think Rich started out by shopping for a monster. Once he picked out a monster and committed to its flaws, then he started analyzing the stats for stories he could tell. And I think he went back to the well several times, started to feel the limits of the source material (there’s not a lot of it), then quietly snuck things in to expand it, rules as written, like the Shock Wave feat and an Escape spell. I think now he’s at the point where he’s having to read the original fiction to get more ideas for the HH.

Of course I could be wrong, but writing with limits is so much easier than writing from a blank canvas. We need more Rich-centric thinking. Rich needed a monster as a writing prompt, not a puzzle solution.


I think there are a number of reasons in the big scenes it does not fit very well, as covered in the FBS roundup at the top of the thread. And, again, if the keystone of your argument is "The monster is already in the darkness, so it's going to be a monster that lives in the darkness" without regard to how the rest of the story fits or whether that fits Rich's intentions for the character, that seems pretty weak to me.

People are going to think I’m kidding, but I genuinely and truly am appreciative of the stat block for the HH at the top of the thread. Eight years ago was not a good moment for me and people took me as seriously as they could.

That being said, it tries to harmonize the Chaosium Hunting Horror with the d20 Hunting Horror and I’m stuck on the d20 Hunting Horror. If I were to cut it down:

Pros:
CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye."
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Has a suggestion at will as an SLA, but that doesn’t shake the panel, so perhaps that doesn’t explain the “STOP” after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version. *1
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult. *2
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.

Cons:
Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 *3
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy -
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way *4
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.

And then some quibbles:

*1 rarely speaks can mean that any individual HH rarely speaks, or it can mean that most HH don’t speak but rarely one does.

*2 I stand by the ice cream cone argument, but some people are persuaded by it being listed as a Tail-Tentacle. It’s hard to have multiple arguments for something because people tend to pick off the one they don’t like then ignore the rest.

I mentioned earlier the bit about finding it difficult to pull. It’s fine to pull the rope. The holding and moving joke is an allusion to its SLA’s, not a contract that it’s using its SLA’s to pull the rope, just like the “eat redcloak and spit the amulet out” is an allusion to its swallow whole and vomit abilities, just like “Sorry about the smell” is an allusion to its aura of nausea.

*3 It has a smoke form. “Why would it use a smoke form?” came up, but my thinking is, “If it’s a HH and Rich can see it has a smoke form, how would he contrive to represent it without showing anyone its form?” Five whiffs in a row and a tickling comment to show Miko didn’t just miss is a short path from the character sheet to the comic, and I realize that’s not conclusive, but there are a lot of short paths from the HH to the comic and it adds up.

*4 Fast healing 10, 1d6 damage from torchlight. Mostly we see it wanting to reveal itself in torchlight, which literally does no damage to it, it just makes it slightly easier to kill if you’re dedicated to it.

3d6 damage from sunlight, and it can cast darkness at will. 230 hp, so 460 rounds, 2760 seconds, 46 minutes of direct sunlight on average before it has to cast Darkness to protect itself.

I really could go on about this one. The bottom line is it’s only a con if you need it to be, and it can even be a pro if you want it to be.

[Crusher]

Your thought processes remain unrecognizable to me.

Crusher, you've mislisted the ox's vote as Haunting Horror, not Hunting Horror.

Oops, thanks!

[woweedd]

Yes and no. It brings us closer, but we do have to try and understand the rest of the choices Rich made. There’s a tendency for all of us, anywhere, not just Order of the Stick fans, to discount a lot of evidence by dismissing one detail at a time. It’s a lot like https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html except people have mildly interesting arguments instead of naked bluffs. (And I’m not suggesting that strip is evidence of anything other than a gag that’s convenient for me to look at again.)


I had a lot to say, realized it was bloviating, tried to cut it down, and really, really should’ve just started over. I’m sorry. The bottom line is I’m a Rich-centric person. What makes me happiest is when I can tell a story in my head about how Rich went from whatever was on the character sheet to whatever scenario he put on paper. For picking the MitD, I think Rich started out by shopping for a monster. Once he picked out a monster and committed to its flaws, then he started analyzing the stats for stories he could tell. And I think he went back to the well several times, started to feel the limits of the source material (there’s not a lot of it), then quietly snuck things in to expand it, rules as written, like the Shock Wave feat and an Escape spell. I think now he’s at the point where he’s having to read the original fiction to get more ideas for the HH.

Of course I could be wrong, but writing with limits is so much easier than writing from a blank canvas. We need more Rich-centric thinking. Rich needed a monster as a writing prompt, not a puzzle solution.



People are going to think I’m kidding, but I genuinely and truly am appreciative of the stat block for the HH at the top of the thread. Eight years ago was not a good moment for me and people took me as seriously as they could.

That being said, it tries to harmonize the Chaosium Hunting Horror with the d20 Hunting Horror and I’m stuck on the d20 Hunting Horror. If I were to cut it down:

Pros:
CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye."
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Has a suggestion at will as an SLA, but that doesn’t shake the panel, so perhaps that doesn’t explain the “STOP” after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version. *1
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult. *2
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.

Cons:
Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 *3
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy -
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way *4
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.

And then some quibbles:

*1 rarely speaks can mean that any individual HH rarely speaks, or it can mean that most HH don’t speak but rarely one does.

*2 I stand by the ice cream cone argument, but some people are persuaded by it being listed as a Tail-Tentacle. It’s hard to have multiple arguments for something because people tend to pick off the one they don’t like then ignore the rest.

I mentioned earlier the bit about finding it difficult to pull. It’s fine to pull the rope. The holding and moving joke is an allusion to its SLA’s, not a contract that it’s using its SLA’s to pull the rope, just like the “eat redcloak and spit the amulet out” is an allusion to its swallow whole and vomit abilities, just like “Sorry about the smell” is an allusion to its aura of nausea.

*3 It has a smoke form. “Why would it use a smoke form?” came up, but my thinking is, “If it’s a HH and Rich can see it has a smoke form, how would he contrive to represent it without showing anyone its form?” Five whiffs in a row and a tickling comment to show Miko didn’t just miss is a short path from the character sheet to the comic, and I realize that’s not conclusive, but there are a lot of short paths from the HH to the comic and it adds up.

*4 Fast healing 10, 1d6 damage from torchlight. Mostly we see it wanting to reveal itself in torchlight, which literally does no damage to it, it just makes it slightly easier to kill if you’re dedicated to it.

3d6 damage from sunlight, and it can cast darkness at will. 230 hp, so 460 rounds, 2760 seconds, 46 minutes of direct sunlight on average before it has to cast Darkness to protect itself.

I really could go on about this one. The bottom line is it’s only a con if you need it to be, and it can even be a pro if you want it to be.
At the risk of being a bit blunt: Man, you don't know Rich. Rich is not your friend, you don't know his thought processes just because you read a comic he wrote. As someone who aspires to be an author myself, this kinda ssumption that you can somehow know that author on some deep level by reading their work is just...Ugh. No. The suggestion itself seems fine, although i'd suggest its acess to teleportation is less "a bit dodgy" and more "entirely unsupported".

[Ruck]

I had a lot to say, realized it was bloviating, tried to cut it down, and really, really should’ve just started over. I’m sorry. The bottom line is I’m a Rich-centric person. What makes me happiest is when I can tell a story in my head about how Rich went from whatever was on the character sheet to whatever scenario he put on paper. For picking the MitD, I think Rich started out by shopping for a monster. Once he picked out a monster and committed to its flaws, then he started analyzing the stats for stories he could tell. And I think he went back to the well several times, started to feel the limits of the source material (there’s not a lot of it), then quietly snuck things in to expand it, rules as written, like the Shock Wave feat and an Escape spell. I think now he’s at the point where he’s having to read the original fiction to get more ideas for the HH.

Of course I could be wrong, but writing with limits is so much easier than writing from a blank canvas. We need more Rich-centric thinking. Rich needed a monster as a writing prompt, not a puzzle solution.

I think Rich's process is important, certainly, but I think he went about it in pretty much the opposite method you have done here. I think he decided what kind of character he wanted the MitD to be and what kind of story he wanted to tell about the MitD, then he went and picked a monster species that was the best thematic fit for that story.

It seems you think he picked the monster first and wrote the story to fit the monster. I think he decided on the story first and picked the monster to fit the story.

[Tubercular Ox]

At the risk of being a bit blunt: Man, you don't know Rich.

I’m basing it more on the Q&A he gives to MitD fans, not what he’s actually written.


I think Rich's process is important, certainly, but I think he went about it in pretty much the opposite method you have done here. I think he decided what kind of character he wanted the MitD to be and what kind of story he wanted to tell about the MitD, then he went and picked a monster species that was the best thematic fit for that story.

It seems you think he picked the monster first and wrote the story to fit the monster. I think he decided on the story first and picked the monster to fit the story.

I agree this is the big disagreement.

My view is he writes a gaming comic. Gaming material is a bunch of writing prompts. We have to assume he enjoys writing to prompts or he wouldn’t be writing a gaming comic. For example, the very first comic is all about the update to 3.5, and after that a joke about how rangers got nerfed. The update prompted the comic. This is common for many authors. Anyone entering any kind of writing contest is expecting to be given a prompt, and writing well to prompts is a sign of expertise.

“I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time,” is an admission that he uses gaming material for writing prompts and is not a simulationist.

“Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?” shows that, however distant he is from simulationism, he feels bound by his prompts, which is how prompts work. Writing outside the prompt is a faux pas.

“There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind,” implies that he had no scenes in mind while shopping for the monster, because any scene he had in mind prior to picking the monster wasn’t tailored to the monster. IOW, all of the MitD’s scenes are prompted. Maybe not always by its statblock, but it has to figure.

So the best contrast for this idea and the idea that he had his plans first, then picked a monster, is the Protean. My version of the story has to be that, first, Rich was attracted to the Protean in some way. We can keep using it as a metaphor for change. Then he had to try the monster out, see what work it does for him as an author, and it doesn’t. It’s almost unique in that every scene you want to write to it starts with yet another round of monster shopping, making the MitD exponentially more difficult to write for than any other character. Maybe for a main character that could happen, but for the villain’s comic relief it’s a chore.

On the other hand, if Rich decided in advance that the MitD was going to switch sides, if he knew there was going to be a tower scene and an escape scene, and that the monster was going to have to beat up Miko and help O-Chul escape, then yeah, the Protean is great. It can slide through any hoop you pass over it, and it can never be disproven because it can slide through any hoop you pass over it.

But it’s still a pain to write for Rich, because choosing the Protean still means he has to shop for monsters for as many of the scenes as he’s picked out in his head. The Protean is not an out for Rich, it’s U-turn straight into the monster manuals to look for a real out.


although i'd suggest its acess to teleportation is less "a bit dodgy" and more "entirely unsupported".

CoC spells are not dependent on class, level, feats, attributes, or other features. Anyone can learn one, even a level 1 commoner with a few weeks on his hands. There’s an explicit rule that says monsters can learn them too, with the same rules as PCs, from books, from teachers (maybe the father he remembers seeing), or from plot intervention. The HH has a few hooks that would justify plot intervention. We’ve already seen the MitD be strangely familiar with high level magic when it recognized Tsukiko’s half ritual. And then you have everything else I’ve already written: CoC spells are not allowed, by the rules, to be exactly what’s in the book, they have to be strange and mysterious, and they can’t seem easy, mundane, mechanical, or safe, all of which the spell commits to.

I think the spell is grounded firmly in the rules and not dodgy in the least, I left the word in because of sentiment on the board.

But with that out of my system: What’s your definition of supported? And I’m not asking you to represent the thread on this, just speak for yourself. Can you give me a few examples of things you think would be supported vs unsupported to help clarify?

[Keltest]

I think Rich's process is important, certainly, but I think he went about it in pretty much the opposite method you have done here. I think he decided what kind of character he wanted the MitD to be and what kind of story he wanted to tell about the MitD, then he went and picked a monster species that was the best thematic fit for that story.

It seems you think he picked the monster first and wrote the story to fit the monster. I think he decided on the story first and picked the monster to fit the story.

That seems kind of implausible to me except in the broadest strokes possible. As evidenced by, well, this thread, finding a specific monster that meets all these criteria is actually really freaking hard. He may have decided on some of the emotional beats of the MITD's story beforehand, but those are almost entirely separate from the actual, specific monster type under there, so he doesnt need to pick one to "fit" that part of the story, anything with free will works.

[Throknor]

“I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time,” is an admission that he uses gaming material for writing prompts and is not a simulationist.

When he chose MITD it was before this. He was either still or recently working on D&D projects = or just playing the game - so the body of work as a whole would be fresh in his mind. And the general feeling is that if there's one creature he'd try to maintain as 'correct' by the rules is the MITD; otherwise the 'can be guessed' could fall to the wayside.

Personally, I think he picked an interesting (to him) creature that had some abilities he could use as dramatic beats. Obviously only an opinion, but look at the flumphs and displacer beasts. Granted they are both generally in mostly comic situations. The flumphs of course were just to mock the flumphs themselves and grew into a running gag but the displacer beasts also serve as a general commentary on the concept of wandering monsters.

For a serious example see the whatever-it-was Mr. Scruffy hung out with in his story. It was a creature few non-experts would recognize but written in a way that could be followed and enjoyed by pretty much anyone.

Or, heck, look at Celia. Rich took her from a one-off character but weaved her into the story. He ability to spontaneously generate lighting became a major deus-ex-machina psych-out with Roy's death. While it's obvious he planned that when he introduced the talisman he clearly didn't when she was introduced. He went down her list of abilities versus the story beats he had in mind and figured out a way to tie them together.

I think he did something similar with MITD. None of the abilities he's shown so far were essential to the story. Miko could have had another way to escape. The stomp-confrontation could have been handled multiple ways. V. could have had a one-time teleport object for emergencies. I'm not going to get into exact replacements for all of them. The point I'm hoping to make is that I feel once the MITD was chosen Rich tailored certain scenes to his abilities that made sense - he didn't come up with the scenes and then choose the MITD. I expect for the majority of readers the interesting part of the reveal will be the creature going against 'type' to do what's right - not what it actually is.

TLDR: (IMO) The big scenes were as written specifically to showcase the MITDs abilities. They could have all been written differently and still worked so the MITD shouldn't need much, if any, shoehorning into them.

[InvisibleBison]

On the issue of "Did Rich pick the MitD's identity before or after writing the story", I think the answer is likely to be that the question is wrong. I would bet that Rich came up a at least somewhat inchoate outline of how he imagined the story to go, then picked a monster to be MitD based on whatever criteria he felt like using, then fleshed out the MitD's scenes based on the abilities of the creature he picked. So when he was picking the MitD, he wasn't trying to match a creature to the tower scene and the stomp scene and the escape scene, but rather to the scene where MitD does something impressive while interacting with Miko, the scene where MitD forces Haley to abandon O-Chul, and the scene where MitD helps O-Chul escape from Xykon.

[Ruck]

On the issue of "Did Rich pick the MitD's identity before or after writing the story", I think the answer is likely to be that the question is wrong. I would bet that Rich came up a at least somewhat inchoate outline of how he imagined the story to go, then picked a monster to be MitD based on whatever criteria he felt like using, then fleshed out the MitD's scenes based on the abilities of the creature he picked. So when he was picking the MitD, he wasn't trying to match a creature to the tower scene and the stomp scene and the escape scene, but rather to the scene where MitD does something impressive while interacting with Miko, the scene where MitD forces Haley to abandon O-Chul, and the scene where MitD helps O-Chul escape from Xykon.

Right. When I say "the story" I mean the general overall arc of MitD-- a member of Team Evil who's not really committed to Evil but just follows Xykon and Redcloak around because he thinks they're his friends and thinks it's easier to follow orders and let them do the thinking than to think for himself, and how he is shaken out of that view and starts to make his own decisions, which I presume will ultimately lead to him flipping to held the good guys.

[Tubercular Ox]

Right. When I say "the story" I mean the general overall arc of MitD-- a member of Team Evil who's not really committed to Evil but just follows Xykon and Redcloak around because he thinks they're his friends and thinks it's easier to follow orders and let them do the thinking than to think for himself, and how he is shaken out of that view and starts to make his own decisions, which I presume will ultimately lead to him flipping to held the good guys.

I think the MitD got a juvenile personality because the HH was too big, and Rich thinks children are smaller than adults even when there are no rules to support it. If Rich found a decent monster that was Small, he would not have made it a child and instead would find some way to size it up.

I think he was tempted into the redemption arc when he went to check if the HH was Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil, and found it had no printed alignment. It's not a force, he had to like the idea of a redemption arc, but it is a prompt available to him.

The two prompts combine into a story arc about coming of age and learning to think for yourself.

[Peelee]

I think the MitD got a juvenile personality because the HH was too big, and Rich thinks children are smaller than adults even when there are no rules to support it. If Rich found a decent monster that was Small, he would not have made it a child and instead would find some way to size it up.

I think he was tempted into the redemption arc when he went to check if the HH was Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil, and found it had no printed alignment. It's not a force, he had to like the idea of a redemption arc, but it is a prompt available to him.

The two prompts combine into a story arc about coming of age and learning to think for yourself.

Goblins, which are Small, are presented as Medium in the comic with absolutely zero explanation.

I do not think the author particularly cares about listed size requirements.

[Tubercular Ox]

Goblins, which are Small, are presented as Medium in the comic with absolutely zero explanation.

I do not think the author particularly cares about listed size requirements.

So the HH can be Huge and I don’t have to explain why it fits under the umbrella?

Or do you mean the HH can be Large and I don’t have to explain how it got there?

[Peelee]

So the HH can be Huge and I don’t have to explain why it fits under the umbrella?

Or do you mean the HH can be Large and I don’t have to explain how it got there?

Dealers choice. I currently don't think size is an important facet to consider for MitD. Others might. Don't ask me what you should consider important.

I just wanted to point out a comic/RAW size discrepancy that was never brought up in-comic as notable in any way.

[Keltest]

So the HH can be Huge and I don’t have to explain why it fits under the umbrella?

Or do you mean the HH can be Large and I don’t have to explain how it got there?

I believe he means that the MITD will be whatever size is convenient to consistently fit on the page, regardless of what the statblock says.

Especially considering that the size was one of the only things decided on before he picked a monster.

[Kish]

My view is he writes a gaming comic. Gaming material is a bunch of writing prompts. We have to assume he enjoys writing to prompts or he wouldn’t be writing a gaming comic. For example, the very first comic is all about the update to 3.5, and after that a joke about how rangers got nerfed.

And he's said that he regrets beginning the comic with that strip, too.


“I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time,” is an admission that he uses gaming material for writing prompts and is not a simulationist.

That's so completely backwards from anything I could imagine reading that as. Something he said about how little he thinks about the game rules now means, somehow, that game rules are huge and central.

[Ruck]

And he's said that he regrets beginning the comic with that strip, too.

That's so completely backwards from anything I could imagine reading that as. Something he said about how little he thinks about the game rules now means, somehow, that game rules are huge and central.

Yeah, I agree, and I think the focus on the OOTS as a product of a writing prompt is still misguided, as I'll elaborate below...


My view is he writes a gaming comic. Gaming material is a bunch of writing prompts. We have to assume he enjoys writing to prompts or he wouldn’t be writing a gaming comic. For example, the very first comic is all about the update to 3.5, and after that a joke about how rangers got nerfed. The update prompted the comic. This is common for many authors. Anyone entering any kind of writing contest is expecting to be given a prompt, and writing well to prompts is a sign of expertise.

I don't think it follows that he has to enjoy "writing from a prompt" because he's writing about gaming, and the assumption that OOTS came from a prompt is even more tenuous and thinly sourced. "OOTS is based in gaming, therefore the story and character arcs came from writing prompts" just doesn't follow for me, especially given how far removed the story has gotten from gaming.

The early comic jokes like the one you reference came before he decided on the series-long arcs and the story he wanted to tell. I think the point came where he realized he had an audience for the strip and decided that if it was going to be a major work of his, that he would want to tell the kind of story he wanted to tell. To the extent there was any prompting, it was only from the characters he had already created and what he had to work with about them from the early strips.

Writing prompts are for exercises in writing. This isn't an exercise; it's something Rich has been working on for almost twenty years (and still has a few to go, most likely); it'll likely be the work he's most remembered by. I think, knowing how long a story he was planning out when he decided to plan the overall arc, his storytelling choices would reflect what he wanted to say and be remembered by, not just picking D&D tropes and monsters and what have you he found interesting and then writing a story around them.

[woweedd]

I’m basing it more on the Q&A he gives to MitD fans, not what he’s actually written.



I agree this is the big disagreement.

My view is he writes a gaming comic. Gaming material is a bunch of writing prompts. We have to assume he enjoys writing to prompts or he wouldn’t be writing a gaming comic. For example, the very first comic is all about the update to 3.5, and after that a joke about how rangers got nerfed. The update prompted the comic. This is common for many authors. Anyone entering any kind of writing contest is expecting to be given a prompt, and writing well to prompts is a sign of expertise.

“I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time,” is an admission that he uses gaming material for writing prompts and is not a simulationist.

“Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?” shows that, however distant he is from simulationism, he feels bound by his prompts, which is how prompts work. Writing outside the prompt is a faux pas.

“There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind,” implies that he had no scenes in mind while shopping for the monster, because any scene he had in mind prior to picking the monster wasn’t tailored to the monster. IOW, all of the MitD’s scenes are prompted. Maybe not always by its statblock, but it has to figure.

So the best contrast for this idea and the idea that he had his plans first, then picked a monster, is the Protean. My version of the story has to be that, first, Rich was attracted to the Protean in some way. We can keep using it as a metaphor for change. Then he had to try the monster out, see what work it does for him as an author, and it doesn’t. It’s almost unique in that every scene you want to write to it starts with yet another round of monster shopping, making the MitD exponentially more difficult to write for than any other character. Maybe for a main character that could happen, but for the villain’s comic relief it’s a chore.

On the other hand, if Rich decided in advance that the MitD was going to switch sides, if he knew there was going to be a tower scene and an escape scene, and that the monster was going to have to beat up Miko and help O-Chul escape, then yeah, the Protean is great. It can slide through any hoop you pass over it, and it can never be disproven because it can slide through any hoop you pass over it.

But it’s still a pain to write for Rich, because choosing the Protean still means he has to shop for monsters for as many of the scenes as he’s picked out in his head. The Protean is not an out for Rich, it’s U-turn straight into the monster manuals to look for a real out.



CoC spells are not dependent on class, level, feats, attributes, or other features. Anyone can learn one, even a level 1 commoner with a few weeks on his hands. There’s an explicit rule that says monsters can learn them too, with the same rules as PCs, from books, from teachers (maybe the father he remembers seeing), or from plot intervention. The HH has a few hooks that would justify plot intervention. We’ve already seen the MitD be strangely familiar with high level magic when it recognized Tsukiko’s half ritual. And then you have everything else I’ve already written: CoC spells are not allowed, by the rules, to be exactly what’s in the book, they have to be strange and mysterious, and they can’t seem easy, mundane, mechanical, or safe, all of which the spell commits to.

I think the spell is grounded firmly in the rules and not dodgy in the least, I left the word in because of sentiment on the board.

But with that out of my system: What’s your definition of supported? And I’m not asking you to represent the thread on this, just speak for yourself. Can you give me a few examples of things you think would be supported vs unsupported to help clarify?

For reffence, I was being literal: you don’t know Rich. None of us actually do. If the only way you interact with someone is when they're in a piblic-facing capicity, you don't know them. And I don't think psychoanalzying a man we've never met is a very productive avenue.

[puzzler7]

Welcome to the Protean People! Platoon? Party? Partnership? Patrol? Pack?

I'm thinking "Pack" but I'm open to suggestions.

I'd vote for Protean Platoon, if only for P..t..n symmetry.

[Tubercular Ox]

For reffence, I was being literal: you don’t know Rich. None of us actually do. If the only way you interact with someone is when they're in a piblic-facing capicity, you don't know them. And I don't think psychoanalzying a man we've never met is a very productive avenue.

Then we should erase every Rich quote from the top thread. They're misleading.

[Keltest]

Then we should erase every Rich quote from the top thread. They're misleading.

In what way are they misleading?

[Ruck]

Welcome to the Protean People! Platoon? Party? Partnership? Patrol? Pack?

I'm thinking "Pack" but I'm open to suggestions.


I'd vote for Protean Platoon, if only for P..t..n symmetry.

How about Pro-team?

[Tzardok]

In what way are they misleading?

I think Tubercular Ox is trying to build a false dichotomy. His original point was "I know what kind of person Rich is and what he thinks like from reading his comic and his posts, and from that I can deduce what the MitD is". And after the impossibility of this was pointed out, he now goes "Well, if we can't know what Rich thinks, then all his quotes won't help and can't be considered," ignoring that there is a difference between using what he said and guessing what he thought when he said that.

[Tubercular Ox]

In what way are they misleading?


I think Tubercular Ox is trying to build a false dichotomy. His original point was "I know what kind of person Rich is and what he thinks like from reading his comic and his posts, and from that I can deduce what the MitD is". And after the impossibility of this was pointed out, he now goes "Well, if we can't know what Rich thinks, then all his quotes won't help and can't be considered," ignoring that there is a difference between using what he said and guessing what he thought when he said that.

It's unambiguous to me that Rich is an author trying to create his own story within the confines of D&D, but people are treating it as inarguable that Rich is an author trying to recreate his own story within the confines of D&D. If it's impossible to know Rich's thoughts without illegal psychoanalysis, don't post what Rich thinks. It's not a false dichotomy, it's a blatant contradiction.

[Peelee]

It's unambiguous to me that Rich is an author trying to create his own story within the confines of D&D, but people are treating it as inarguable that Rich is an author trying to recreate his own story within the confines of D&D. If it's impossible to know Rich's thoughts without illegal psychoanalysis, don't post what Rich thinks. It's not a false dichotomy, it's a blatant contradiction.

Perhaps this might help.

What I really want is to write the comic with moderate broad-strokes adherence to the concepts embodied in D&D, and for everyone to get off my back when I get some of the fiddly details wrong, or invent a new thing that doesn't currently exist in the game.

Flowchart of D&D rules accuracy as they pertain to the comic, as drawn by the author (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/4/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/e30%3D/1.png?token-time=1672272000&token-hash=nv0xZdCLGwrPEMHGKVB04aVGrfwIkcTc8fE0mkn2QOk%3 D).

"Within the confines of D&D" is not as hard and fast as you seem to think it is.

[Tubercular Ox]

Perhaps this might help.


Flowchart of D&D rules accuracy as they pertain to the comic, as drawn by the author (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/4/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/e30%3D/1.png?token-time=1672272000&token-hash=nv0xZdCLGwrPEMHGKVB04aVGrfwIkcTc8fE0mkn2QOk%3 D).

"Within the confines of D&D" is not as hard and fast as you seem to think it is.

I'm happy to have more quotes from Rich. Is that from a different thread?

[Peelee]

I'm happy to have more quotes from Rich. Is that from a different thread?

In a quote block, there's a little double arrow box next to the name of the person being quoted. Click that and it'll take you to the post/thread it was posted in.

There is also an index thread compiling comments made by the author.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's unambiguous to me that Rich is an author trying to create his own story within the confines of D&D, but people are treating it as inarguable that Rich is an author trying to recreate his own story within the confines of D&D. If it's impossible to know Rich's thoughts without illegal psychoanalysis, don't post what Rich thinks. It's not a false dichotomy, it's a blatant contradiction.

Therefore I should delete all quotes where the author states facts about MitD such as "The reveal is a crucial part of the story"?

Yeah, that is not going to happen.

GW

[Ruck]

"Within the confines of D&D" is not as hard and fast as you seem to think it is.

Yep, that's it. Rich has been repeatedly clear that D&D gives the story an origin and a rough framework, but he doesn't much care about strictly adhering to it. "Within the confines of D&D" isn't accurate; "the story was prompted by creatures in D&D Rich thought were cool and decided to write around" even less so.

[lio45]

Yep, that's it. Rich has been repeatedly clear that D&D gives the story an origin and a rough framework, but he doesn't much care about strictly adhering to it. "Within the confines of D&D" isn't accurate; "the story was prompted by creatures in D&D Rich thought were cool and decided to write around" even less so.I find Ox makes an interesting/decent case for the HH, but I strongly refuse his portrayal of Rich as someone who ever felt the need to dig into source manuals before moving forward with his story, even in the very earliest days (let alone nowadays!)

Can one of you guys find Rich’s “flow chart for fidelity to the rules in the comic” for us? :) That’s all the psychoanalysis we need …

Edit - found it myself:



https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/4/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/e30%3D/1.png?token-time=1672272000&token-hash=nv0xZdCLGwrPEMHGKVB04aVGrfwIkcTc8fE0mkn2QOk%3 D

[Peelee]

Can one of you guys find Rich’s “flow chart for fidelity to the rules in the comic” for us? :) That’s all the psychoanalysis we need...

Flowchart of D&D rules accuracy as they pertain to the comic, as drawn by the author (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/4/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/e30%3D/1.png?token-time=1672272000&token-hash=nv0xZdCLGwrPEMHGKVB04aVGrfwIkcTc8fE0mkn2QOk%3 D).
Glad to pre-emptively be of service. :smalltongue:

[lio45]

Huh. That’s what I get for not clicking on any links from questionable sources. :P ;)

(Actually, even without clicking, had I paid a bit more attention to your link’s title, I’d have figured it out!)

[Tubercular Ox]

In a quote block, there's a little double arrow box next to the name of the person being quoted. Click that and it'll take you to the post/thread it was posted in.

There is also an index thread compiling comments made by the author.

Thank you!

When I read that quote and look at that flowchart, I see someone trying to create a story telling people he's not trying to recreate a story.

The entry point for the flowchart is "Do I remember?" meaning he's confident he knew at some point in the past. This is what I've been saying. He reads the rules first, gets his ideas, then creates his story. The counterclaim I'm hearing is he wrote his story first then went into the monster manuals and tried to make something fit. That contradicts the flowchart.

As for the confines of D&D, fair enough. Confines is a very restrictive word and I think we are both imagining something more liberal. Let me backtrack and congratulate you guys on taking the size thing a lot less seriously than eight years ago. That's in the right direction.

[Peelee]

The entry point for the flowchart is "Do I remember?" meaning he's confident he knew at some point in the past. This is what I've been saying. He reads the rules first, gets his ideas, then creates his story. The counterclaim I'm hearing is he wrote his story first then went into the monster manuals and tried to make something fit. That contradicts the flowchart.

Suffice it to say that I have a significantly different takeaway from what he says about how rules interact with the story than you do.

[Ruck]

There is a huge, unsupported leap from this:


The entry point for the flowchart is "Do I remember?" meaning he's confident he knew at some point in the past.

To this:


This is what I've been saying. He reads the rules first, gets his ideas, then creates his story.




Suffice it to say that I have a significantly different takeaway from what he says about how rules interact with the story than you do.

More specifically, how does "I try to remember the rules for mechanics when they come up in the story, and if I get them wrong, I don't really care" translate to "He reads the rules first, gets his ideas, then creates his story"?

[Keltest]

Thank you!

When I read that quote and look at that flowchart, I see someone trying to create a story telling people he's not trying to recreate a story.

The entry point for the flowchart is "Do I remember?" meaning he's confident he knew at some point in the past. This is what I've been saying. He reads the rules first, gets his ideas, then creates his story. The counterclaim I'm hearing is he wrote his story first then went into the monster manuals and tried to make something fit. That contradicts the flowchart.

As for the confines of D&D, fair enough. Confines is a very restrictive word and I think we are both imagining something more liberal. Let me backtrack and congratulate you guys on taking the size thing a lot less seriously than eight years ago. That's in the right direction.

You may want to look closer at the flow chart, as there is in fact not actually an option where he checks the rules to see if theyre correct. He makes a half-remembered reference that may or may not be correct and doesnt really care if it is.

[Sir_Norbert]

Thank you!When I read that quote and look at that flowchart, I see someone trying to create a story telling people he's not trying to recreate a story.

Maybe it would aid clarity if you told us what you mean by the word "recreate"?

The Giant is certainly not trying to retell an already existing story, and I can't think what else the word could mean in this context.

[lio45]

Rich doesn’t have enough free time to go and “read D&D rules” before writing his story, and that suggestion flies in the face of everything we know. He (generally) knows the rules because for many years, he was gaming/DMing. The way he talks suggests those years are mostly behind him.

[Jasdoif]

There is also an index thread compiling comments made by the author.Ahem.

He (generally) knows the rules because for many years, he was gaming/DMing.And also a freelance writer of D&D material for Wizards of the Coast.

[InvisibleBison]

I feel like people are losing sight of how the fact that the comic has been going on for a long, long time. Statements Rich has made about his creative process or how he engages with the D&D rules in 2022 or in 2013 don't necessarily reflect how he was thinking about things in 2004 when he picked the identity of the MitD. I think it's very risky to base a theory on a much later quote, especially since we know his attitude on these things has changed over time.

[Peelee]

I feel like people are losing sight of how the fact that the comic has been going on for a long, long time. Statements Rich has made about his creative process or how he engages with the D&D rules in 2022 or in 2013 don't necessarily reflect how he was thinking about things in 2004 when he picked the identity of the MitD. I think it's very risky to base a theory on a much later quote, especially since we know his attitude on these things has changed over time.

I agree, but he has so stated that he decided what threMitD was after he figured out the story and also that the reveal is a crucial part of the story. This means that he came up with the story first and then found something that fit the story he wanted to tell and not that he picked a creature and wrote a story around it.

[Tubercular Ox]

Thank you all for your answers, I’m sorry for not replying one by one. We’re starting to look in the same direction here.

As long as rich has ideas, he’s not going to go back for more. And in the modern day, there may be no more ideas to go back for because he’s already read every 3.5 manual he’s ever going to read. They’re not printing any more.

But at the moment when he was looking up a MitD, he had no ideas. He even told us he was expecting the MitD never to be revealed.

So the quote is “Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since.”

That’s not the same as “he has so stated that he decided what the MitD was after he figured out the story”

My suggestion is that he was in the process of developing the story when he put conscious effort into figuring out what the MitD was, which counts as developing the story. It wasn’t this first, then the other. He knows his material, he uses it to have ideas, then he runs out of ideas and returns to the material. That's how he went from a general knowledge of D&D to a D&D parody comic to needing a monster for the MitD to be and checking the manuals for one.

And from a practical standpoint, why would he make any decision that would limit the number of monsters that could be the MitD without first looking to see if there were an awesome monster that would blow him away? I’m not saying the HH is that monster, I’m not saying that monster exists. He may have gotten tired of looking and decided to settle on something. But every plot point he adds to the MitD without knowing what it is just limits his options and makes the MitD harder to choose. Even something as simple as deciding on a child robs him of the possibility of an amazing monster without the right life cycle.

[Ruck]

But at the moment when he was looking up a MitD, he had no ideas. He even told us he was expecting the MitD never to be revealed.

He was never expected to be revealed initially. Once he started developing the real story he was telling, he decided on what MitD was and that the reveal would be "a crucial part of the story."


So the quote is “Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since.”

That’s not the same as “he has so stated that he decided what the MitD was after he figured out the story”

It is a lot closer to "Rich figured out the MitD's species in the process of developing the real story, because that species and reveal is a crucial part of the real story" than it is to "Rich looked through monster manuals to find a cool monster he likes, then wrote the story to that."


My suggestion is that he was in the process of developing the story when he put conscious effort into figuring out what the MitD was, which counts as developing the story. It wasn’t this first, then the other.

Sure. But, again, this comes down to the MitD's species and reveal being "a crucial part of the story," and not just a guessing game or a chance to draw an awesome monster. Because it's a crucial part of the story, my assumption at least (and I think that of most others) is that the species is relevant in some way to the story itself, or at least to MitD's story, and that's why Rich chose it. Not because he was flipping through books to find a really cool monster.


And from a practical standpoint, why would he make any decision that would limit the number of monsters that could be the MitD without first looking to see if there were an awesome monster that would blow him away?

Because the story of MitD has more to do with what kind of person he is and what his character is rather than how cool his species type is.


I’m not saying the HH is that monster, I’m not saying that monster exists. He may have gotten tired of looking and decided to settle on something.

I don't think something he considers "a crucial part of the story" would fall under something he would get tired of looking for and settle on.


But every plot point he adds to the MitD without knowing what it is just limits his options and makes the MitD harder to choose. Even something as simple as deciding on a child robs him of the possibility of an amazing monster without the right life cycle.

I don't really understand what plot points you think could be added that could limit the species, other than your example. (And said plot point is crucial to the MitD's arc and development, so, yes, I do think he would have decided on that first.)

Again, this argument seems to be premised on the idea that MitD's species was chosen for its coolness or how much it impressed Rich, rather than for the needs of the story.

[Peelee]

It is a lot closer to "Rich figured out the MitD's species in the process of developing the real story, because that species and reveal is a crucial part of the real story" than it is to "Rich looked through monster manuals to find a cool monster he likes, then wrote the story to that."

Especially since the MitD isn't a terribly big part of the story. The author could easily have just dropped him and had Redcloak and Xykon escape the Dungeon of Dorukan alone. Speaking solely for myself, I find it straining credulity to think that he was coming up with a story, thought of a monster, made that the MitD, and then wrote that story around what it was rather than coming up with a story, came across a monster that happened to fit in with said story, made that the MitD, and then worked him into parts as needed.

[Keltest]

It is a lot closer to "Rich figured out the MitD's species in the process of developing the real story, because that species and reveal is a crucial part of the real story" than it is to "Rich looked through monster manuals to find a cool monster he likes, then wrote the story to that."




Sure. But, again, this comes down to the MitD's species and reveal being "a crucial part of the story," and not just a guessing game or a chance to draw an awesome monster. Because it's a crucial part of the story, my assumption at least (and I think that of most others) is that the species is relevant in some way to the story itself, or at least to MitD's story, and that's why Rich chose it. Not because he was flipping through books to find a really cool monster.

Dont these seem to contradict this?


Because the story of MitD has more to do with what kind of person he is and what his character is rather than how cool his species type is.

[Peelee]

Dont these seem to contradict this?

Yes, they do. But that's mostly because Ruck was incorrect in the earlier posts - the author never said the species was crucial. Only that the reveal, and the reasons why, are crucial.

[brian 333]

I'm having trouble swallowing the Protean Pill.
MitD is something Xykon believes he can command. By their nature, Suggestion, Dominate, Geas, and similar spells which compel a creature to do something will ultimately fail.
Proteans are physical embodiements of Chaos. Even the most successful domination will be perverted and twisted to make it virtually useless.

Besides, as a matter of characterization, MitD has been a stable character. Certainly growth has occurred, but the character traits established in DCF still resonate in the character. I doubt a Protean could hold it together anywhere near that long.

[Ruck]

Yes, they do. But that's mostly because Ruck was incorrect in the earlier posts - the author never said the species was crucial. Only that the reveal, and the reasons why, are crucial.

Hmm, I guess I did add "species" in there. But, I still don't think there's a contradiction, because my position is that the species is somehow thematically resonant with MitD's story, not that the species is just an awesome or badass type of monster Rich thought it would be cool to write about.

I suppose that's a bit of a presumption on my part, but I think it's a fairly sound one, given that Rich is writing a story, and he is in my view a very good storyteller. I therefore think he would make choices that serve the story in some way and are thematically resonant or meaningful, rather than just the Wouldn't It Be Cool If choice. I don't think the species itself is necessarily crucial, but I think the story will be better if MitD's species has some kind of thematic resonance with his character arc. (if you want more detail on my thoughts on this, my essay at the top of the thread covers them pretty well.)

[InvisibleBison]

I'm having trouble swallowing the Protean Pill.
MitD is something Xykon believes he can command. By their nature, Suggestion, Dominate, Geas, and similar spells which compel a creature to do something will ultimately fail.
Proteans are physical embodiements of Chaos. Even the most successful domination will be perverted and twisted to make it virtually useless.

Besides, as a matter of characterization, MitD has been a stable character. Certainly growth has occurred, but the character traits established in DCF still resonate in the character. I doubt a Protean could hold it together anywhere near that long.

There's nothing in the protean's description or abilities to suggest that it can pervert or twist ongoing mental magic or that it can't maintain a consistent personality over a long period of time.

[Ruck]

There's nothing in the protean's description or abilities to suggest that it can pervert or twist ongoing mental magic or that it can't maintain a consistent personality over a long period of time.

I meant to get to brian's post, but you said what I was going to say much more succinctly. Seems like some assumptions not supported by any text.

(And, well, it is still quite possible that Xykon's Unidentified Future Trigger Control Spell doesn't quite work out for him the way he thinks it will.)

[Yendor]

(And, well, it is still quite possible that Xykon's Unidentified Future Trigger Control Spell doesn't quite work out for him the way he thinks it will.)

Speaking of which: I found the Pathfinder spell Unconscious Agenda (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unconscious-agenda) interesting. Obviously, it's way too late to be the specific spell in question, but it has a long duration, simple instructions, is difficult to detect until it's triggered, and the target doesn't remember it being cast. And the basic concept of creating a sleeper agent is common enough that I wouldn't be surprised if there were a similar, earlier spell. (The biggest problem other than the date is that it only works on humanoids.)

[brian 333]

I meant to get to brian's post, but you said what I was going to say much more succinctly. Seems like some assumptions not supported by any text.

(And, well, it is still quite possible that Xykon's Unidentified Future Trigger Control Spell doesn't quite work out for him the way he thinks it will.)

They seek to tear down the multiverse and return it to its original form. Bound Proteans seek to achieve this goal even when bargaining with those who dare summon and bind them.

I am basing my reservations on how beings of Chaos have historically been portrayed, and MitD does not fit that mold.

A protean can be described as a sort of elemental: it is a physical embodiment of Chaos. It can't hold a single shape for very long. It is compelled to change. Of course, we have not seen its form, so we do not know if MitD has ever shape shifted, but there have been no hints of that in comic. No goblin ever mistook MitD for someone else. ("Hey, what happened to that other guy with a duckie umbrella?")

Then there is the fact that it was not summoned. It was found on the Material Plane. The hunter's comment was, "Wrong terrain type," not, "Wrong plane." This leads me to believe MitD is not an outsider. It is a native of the Material Plane, and so is its Dad. (Plus, proteans have no terrain type. They simply grow appendages suitable to the environment or fly.)

Protean fits many of the observed actions.
Protean does not fit the observed characterization.

[Ruck]

They seek to tear down the multiverse and return it to its original form. Bound Proteans seek to achieve this goal even when bargaining with those who dare summon and bind them.

Can you provide a source on that? I don't have anything but the publicly available SRD information, and it doesn't contain any of the fluff.


I am basing my reservations on how beings of Chaos have historically been portrayed, and MitD does not fit that mold.

Right, an assumption based on other texts, which do not necessarily reflect how Rich is writing.


A protean can be described as a sort of elemental: it is a physical embodiment of Chaos. It can't hold a single shape for very long. It is compelled to change. Of course, we have not seen its form, so we do not know if MitD has ever shape shifted, but there have been no hints of that in comic. No goblin ever mistook MitD for someone else. ("Hey, what happened to that other guy with a duckie umbrella?")

We have also gone over, maybe a thousand times at this point (I don't know if Grey Wolf is keeping count), that a Protean is not a true shapeshifter in the way you have described.


Then there is the fact that it was not summoned. It was found on the Material Plane. The hunter's comment was, "Wrong terrain type," not, "Wrong plane." This leads me to believe MitD is not an outsider. It is a native of the Material Plane, and so is its Dad. (Plus, proteans have no terrain type. They simply grow appendages suitable to the environment or fly.)

The hunter's comment is "I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world." No mention at all of terrain, and in truth we're not really sure if the SBGH means "the Material Plane" by "the world" or is including other planes.

We also have MitD's unusual recognition of the Astral Plane in #833, which might suggest that he did travel through there at some distant point in the past but has forgotten his memories. He says he was "always there" in the jungle in #651, but he remembers his dad even though his dad did not live in the jungle; he also doesn't know if his "type" has a homeland. I think there's enough to suggest we shouldn't assume MitD is native to the Material Plane.


Protean fits many of the observed actions.
Protean does not fit the observed characterization.

I mean, one of the whole points of the comic is that species does not define character.

[brian 333]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/protean/

Every monster and character in the comic has been true to the text of the Monster Manual. If MitD is not, it will be the first.

Even the much-maligned goblins which are being used as the exemplars of the case against stereotypes are Usually Evil in comic. One would be hard pressed to find examples of goblins which are not.

The statement that The Author does not adhere to published descriptions is simply untrue.

[Tubercular Ox]

There’s a conflict here. OT1H, Rich tells us over and over that he doesn’t care about the rules. OTOH, in the early years, his strip had such a high fidelity to the rules that his audience is comfortable tracking it and asking questions about deviations.

To me it’s obvious that, if he doesn’t care about the rules after the comic is written, then he must care about the rules before the comic is written.

That’s why he can make statements like this and still be the same Rich that doesn’t care about the rules:

“The three arrows are fired so that they are staggered; this is a Rapid Shot attack with a BAB between +6 and +10 (Two shots at full BAB-2, one shot at BAB-7). A Manyshot would have shown all three arrows even with each other, and only made one sound effect.”
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493

He planned that panel following the rules. He knew Haley had rapid shot, he knew her BAB closely enough to know how many arrows she fired, and when he was called on it he had the receipts.

But when he’s not following the rules and people call him on it, he says he doesn’t care about the rules. He has his cake and eats it, too, but we don’t get to see the cake he eats before the comic is published.

So that’s fine. Sometimes he follows the rules, sometimes he doesn’t, but what I’m being asked to believe about the MitD is he wrote a story without consulting the rules and then consulted the rules after writing it. It’s inconsistent with what he tells us he does and what we can see he does. Either he looks at the rules, writes to the rules, then stops caring about the rules, or he completely spitballs something and never double checks it with the rules. He doesn't spitball something and then check the rules on it.

Also, what is awesome to an author except a feeling that it would make a better story? It’s basically saying Rich has a different definition of awesome than us but we still have to use our definition of awesome when describing things, and therefore I’m wrong.

[Peelee]

There’s a conflict here. OT1H, Rich tells us over and over that he doesn’t care about the rules.

No, he does not. He says that he does not care about moment-to-moment rules accuracy, or that he doesn't care about being wrong on the rules, or that story trumps rules. He has never said he doesn't care about the rules, full stop. You are presenting this as black and white when it's not, and he has given plenty of context to give a fair idea of what shade of grey is accurate.

[InvisibleBison]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/protean/

Every monster and character in the comic has been true to the text of the Monster Manual. If MitD is not, it will be the first.

Even the much-maligned goblins which are being used as the exemplars of the case against stereotypes are Usually Evil in comic. One would be hard pressed to find examples of goblins which are not.

The statement that The Author does not adhere to published descriptions is simply untrue.

Those are Pathfinder proteans. They're a completely different creature from the D&D proteans (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm), which is the candidate to be MitD.

[brian 333]

Those are Pathfinder proteans. They're a completely different creature from the D&D proteans (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm), which is the candidate to be MitD.

That's only half the monster description. Where is the half that tells you what a Protean is and how it lives? I'm betting it's enough like the PF version as to make zero difference.

[Tzardok]

The description is found in the Epic Level Handbook. I'm not sure the forum rules allow quoting it here?

But in short: Pathfinder proteans aren't chaotic enough to be hagunemnons. For one, they actually have shape, instead of being a boiling mass of body parts from different creatures. (Which is part of the reason why I don't think the MitD is one.)
Hagunemnons are also driven by hatred for non-shapeshifting life (which is apparantly at its core caused by envy for their bodily stability), and by the search for new abilities to add to their repertoire.

[InvisibleBison]

That's only half the monster description. Where is the half that tells you what a Protean is and how it lives? I'm betting it's enough like the PF version as to make zero difference.

No, it's actually very different:


The ultimate shapeshifter, a hagunemnon can take on the extraordinary abilities of any other nondeific creature.

Hagunemnons, also known as proteans, have no natural shape; they always appear in flux, incorporating the physical attributes of two, three, or more creatures simultaneously. Their forms boil with possibility, and rarely does any attribute last for more than a minute. Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing.

Tainted with chaos at the time of their race's creation, proteans are denied the stability that most races enjoy. This has imbued them with undying hatred of all non-shapechanging beings (they tolerate other shapechangers but look down upon them for remaining in the same shape for hours or even days at a time). Hagunemnons travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinary abilities to assume. Their xenophobia generally results in their attempting to slay other beings after copying them.

Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it. They can speak and understand the language of any other creature.

Most notably, D&D proteans are not "physical embodiment[s] of Chaos".

[Kish]

There’s a conflict here. OT1H, Rich tells us over and over that he doesn’t care about the rules. OTOH, in the early years, his strip had such a high fidelity to the rules that his audience is comfortable tracking it and asking questions about deviations.

You greatly overestimate how much his audience's reactions are about what he does and how much they're about what his audience expects and/or wants for the second point, your own self being the best recent example. He had responded to a rule question with, "I bend the rules when it makes it funny. Accept." before strip #100.


To me it’s obvious that, if he doesn’t care about the rules after the comic is written, then he must care about the rules before the comic is written.

To me it's obvious that if you treat Rich like a Star Trek computer and try to torture some literal meaning out of his words that supports what you're looking for, whether it's actually anything that makes sense for a person to say or not be damned, you will not arrive at accurate information about Rich or the comic.

What you're being asked to believe about the creature in the darkness is that...

...y'know, I might have lost the bulk of your position in all this bafflingly phrased rhetoric. You have specifically been told that it's not valid to assume that Rich chose the creature's species to be symbolic of something. And "writing prompt," insofar as it makes any sense as applied to the seventh book of a graphic novel series, does not parse into anything that logically points to a species for the creature in the darkness either.

[brian 333]

No, it's actually very different:
And yet, in the specific ways that make MitD unlikely to be protean, the differences work against it being more likely.

The unspecified immunities stand out as an example of this. What are a protean's immunities, which are cited on the SRD?

Another cited ability is Plane Shift, an at-will power, which makes it virtually impossible to keep him in a box. Why is MitD still here if it's a protean which can be just about anywhere it wants to be just by wanting to be there?

Finally, "...they always appear in flux...Their form boils with possibility...Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever hanging.
Tainted with Chaos at the time of their creation...


Most notably, D&D proteans are not "physical embodiment[s] of Chaos".

The text you quoted appears to disagree with your conclusion.

To be clear, Rich is a better writer than me. If he wants MitD to be a protean, I'm willing to bet he can pull it off. However, I think too many of us are taking the protean supplement without checking into the cons.

Read the whole label, not just the part that confirms what you want it to confirm, and I think you'll agree that, as characterized in the comic, protean is a bad fit for MitD, even if it's the only one we can find with all of the displayed powers.

[Ruck]

And yet, in the specific ways that make MitD unlikely to be protean, the differences work against it being more likely.

The unspecified immunities stand out as an example of this. What are a protean's immunities, which are cited on the SRD?

I don't know, but I also don't understand how the SRD not having them specified is supposed to "work against it."


Another cited ability is Plane Shift, an at-will power, which makes it virtually impossible to keep him in a box. Why is MitD still here if it's a protean which can be just about anywhere it wants to be just by wanting to be there?

Have you paid any attention to the MitD's characterization? Not only is he an extremely passive follower, he doesn't even know what he is or what he's capable of.


Finally, "...they always appear in flux...Their form boils with possibility...Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever hanging.
Tainted with Chaos at the time of their creation...



The text you quoted appears to disagree with your conclusion.

"Tainted with Chaos" and "physical embodiments of Chaos" do not mean the same thing.


To be clear, Rich is a better writer than me. If he wants MitD to be a protean, I'm willing to bet he can pull it off. However, I think too many of us are taking the protean supplement without checking into the cons.

Read the whole label, not just the part that confirms what you want it to confirm, and I think you'll agree that, as characterized in the comic, protean is a bad fit for MitD, even if it's the only one we can find with all of the displayed powers.

I think it's a great fit, as I've explained at length already. More directly, I think you are continuing to make assumptions that a creature's species defines its character and personality. Which, again, one of the main themes of this very comic is that it does not.

[InvisibleBison]

The unspecified immunities stand out as an example of this. What are a protean's immunities, which are cited on the SRD?

Unknown - the same error is present in the book, and neither the errata (https://web.archive.org/web/20041207002128/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) nor the 3.5 update pamphlet (https://ia800901.us.archive.org/3/items/dnd_3.5_update_booklet/dnd_3.5_update_booklet.pdf) corrects it.


Another cited ability is Plane Shift, an at-will power, which makes it virtually impossible to keep him in a box. Why is MitD still here if it's a protean which can be just about anywhere it wants to be just by wanting to be there?

Why is this only an issue for the protean? Anything strong enough to be MitD is perfectly capable of breaking out of the box with brute force. If being able to easily escape from the box disqualifies something from being MitD, then nothing can be MitD.



Finally, "...they always appear in flux...Their form boils with possibility...Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever hanging.
Tainted with Chaos at the time of their creation...

The text you quoted appears to disagree with your conclusion.

No, it doesn't. My conclusion is that proteans are not physical embodiments of chaos. There is nothing in that text that says they are, and the mechanics make it quite clear that they aren't. I'll admit, some of those phrases would make sense if used to describe something that was a physical embodiment of chaos, but that doesn't mean anything. An implication that is contradicted by other parts of a text is false.



Read the whole label, not just the part that confirms what you want it to confirm, and I think you'll agree that, as characterized in the comic, protean is a bad fit for MitD, even if it's the only one we can find with all of the displayed powers.

I did "read the whole label", most notably the part that says "Large Aberration (Shapechanger)" and not "Large Outsider (Chaos, Shapechanger)". There's no contradiction between MitD's characterization in the comic and how the game depicts proteans, only between said characterization and your misunderstanding of what proteans are.

[Peelee]

Another cited ability is Plane Shift, an at-will power, which makes it virtually impossible to keep him in a box.

May I assume, then, that you object to any creature with a sizeable strength score? Say, anything over 24, why not?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(I don't know if Grey Wolf is keeping count)

Hell no. I'm endlessly grateful that Crusher took on the thankless job of merely keeping track of everyone's preferences. I wouldn't wish tracking "protean is the ultimate, perfect shapeshifter, and therefore should be able to pass for something else" thing on anyone.


May I assume, then, that you object to any creature with a sizeable strength score? Say, anything over 24, why not?

I'd really like to hear what kind of candidate they have in mind that can punch a horse through a wall and yet can't escape a flimsy box.

GW

[Tubercular Ox]

...y'know, I might have lost the bulk of your position in all this bafflingly phrased rhetoric.

I can’t lie that I’m the kind of guy to mention my candidate every time it fits, but for me the way Rich is treated is shocking and worth talking about by itself.

I don’t even know where to go from there. It’s all obvious to me, but I don’t say that to mean that it should be obvious to you. We’re coming from very different places.

I’ll try again, just to keep things going: If he wrote the story for the MitD first, and then picked a monster to fit, then it’s reasonable to ask him if someone else maybe guessed a better monster. And someone asked him that. Here’s what he said:



No, because if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.

Let’s just count how many times he said no. First he said no right up front, then he said no with more words, then he said no with different words, and finally he said no because the first three times weren’t enough.

In any other context I have access to, I would be allowed to say he sounds agitated without having to “psychoanalyze” him first. This would have consequences on the validity of the assumptions the question was asked with.

So what do you think of three categorical objections to the same question?

[Ruck]

Hell no.

I didn't think you seriously would, but "Hell no" is the kind of response I was hoping for.


Let’s just count how many times he said no. First he said no right up front, then he said no with more words, then he said no with different words, and finally he said no because the first three times weren’t enough.

In any other context I have access to, I would be allowed to say he sounds agitated without having to “psychoanalyze” him first. This would have consequences on the validity of the assumptions the question was asked with.

See, I don't get agitation from that answer at all, or even "saying no four times" like you're saying. I see someone answering "no" then giving a detailed explanation as to why the answer is "no."

[brian 333]

Hell no. I'm endlessly grateful that Crusher took on the thankless job of merely keeping track of everyone's preferences. I wouldn't wish tracking "protean is the ultimate, perfect shapeshifter, and therefore should be able to pass for something else" thing on anyone.



I'd really like to hear what kind of candidate they have in mind that can punch a horse through a wall and yet can't escape a flimsy box.

GW

I don't know that the box was more flimsey than the wall of that fort, but that was not my point. My point was, why would any protean choose to remain on the same plane as the monster hunters who captured it, or Xykon who treats it like a tool?

And that's really just one piece among several that doesn't fit, as I have said.

If you, (generic you, not GW specifically,) are convinced protean is the best guess, (and I confess there are not many better choices with all of the abilities MitD has,) then that's your choice. I flipped the template: instead of looking at powers and characteristics that fit, I tried to see if there were ones which did not. I conclude that for MitD to be a protean, too many traits would have to be houseruled or characterized away.

The Author said MitD is not a homebrew, that we would recognize it once revealed, and that it could be guessed by the information presented in comic. Altering a creature a little, say with an age or alignment change, is one thing. When entire powers and characterization blocks are altered, it's too much. It is no longer recognizable as the original.

The MitD may be protean. I don't know. I'm sure whatever Rich has in mind for it, it won't have a hacked monster stat block that omits or alters the creature in a major way.

I ask you who are the most fervent supporters of the protean to look at it from the other side: try to prove it is not. You may find it easier than you expect.

[Ruck]

I don't know that the box was more flimsey than the wall of that fort, but that was not my point. My point was, why would any protean choose to remain on the same plane as the monster hunters who captured it, or Xykon who treats it like a tool?

Why do you keep repeatedly ignoring MitD's well-demonstrated personality and lack of knowledge about what he is and what he can do?


If you, (generic you, not GW specifically,) are convinced protean is the best guess, (and I confess there are not many better choices with all of the abilities MitD has,) then that's your choice. I flipped the template: instead of looking at powers and characteristics that fit, I tried to see if there were ones which did not. I conclude that for MitD to be a protean, too many traits would have to be houseruled or characterized away.

And your arguments have all been based on incorrect sources or making assumptions that a monster's species must define its personality and character.


I ask you who are the most fervent supporters of the protean to look at it from the other side: try to prove it is not. You may find it easier than you expect.

You can't prove a negative. You can, however, find reasons to nitpick or find fault with literally any monster. So, by that reasoning, the MitD must be nothing at all.

[Sir_Norbert]

You can't prove a negative.

Of course you can. It is very easy, for example, to prove that Xykon is not a Protean.

The expression "You can't prove a negative" applies to a specific context and is meaningless or silly when taken out of that context. It means that one example of something happening proves it to be possible, but no amount of a thing not happening is enough to prove it impossible.

[Ruck]

Of course you can. It is very easy, for example, to prove that Xykon is not a Protean.

The expression "You can't prove a negative" applies to a specific context and is meaningless or silly when taken out of that context. It means that one example of something happening proves it to be possible, but no amount of a thing not happening is enough to prove it impossible.

It's not meaningless here. Since we don't firmly know what Rich has chosen or what he is thinking, we can't strictly prove anything is not correct. We can provide lots of supporting evidence that such-and-such could not be MitD's species, and all of them except one will ultimately prove correct, but at this time we cannot, strictly speaking, prove any of them.

The main thrust of my point is still entirely valid: "Prove MitD is not X" is a test that can be applied to any species, and would ultimately lead to the conclusion that the MitD cannot be anything. Since that cannot be true, I do not see the point in the exercise.

[brian 333]

Why do you keep repeatedly ignoring MitD's well-demonstrated personality and lack of knowledge about what he is and what he can do?

A baby may not know it is a human, but from birth it grabs things with its hand. There are, whether you like them or not, behaviors that are natural to a species.

For example, in my long lost youth my family dog whelped a litter of puppies. My sister found an abandoned kitten and brought it home. The dog took the kitten from the box my sister had it in, placed it with her litter, and nursed it. You probably know similar stories. My girlfriend had a cat that nursed a squirrel. Anyway, the kitten first opened its eyes on a litter of puppies, learned to walk and play with them. We had Kitty Cat for many years after Butterscotch passed, but in all that time I never heard it bark.
Likewise, while MitD may not know it isn't a dog, intrinsic behaviors natural to it will happen. (Like ESCAPE!)



And your arguments have all been based on incorrect sources or making assumptions that a monster's species must define its personality and character.

My source was correct in large part. And please show me an example of any species shown in comic that does not adhere to the published guidelines for that species. There is a higher standard in MitD's case because The Author has said we could guess the species from the information printed in the comic.
To say that, in this one case, it's okay to deviate from published material because, well, I'm not sure what point is being made with that, but if MitD does deviate from published characterization, it will be the only time in comic.


You can't prove a negative. You can, however, find reasons to nitpick or find fault with literally any monster. So, by that reasoning, the MitD must be nothing at all.

I'm not trying to nitpick or find fault. I'm trying to explain why a popular choice for MitD's species does not resonate for me. Some appear intent on proving me wrong, most just said something like 'Okay, but you have not convinced me.' Notice that I have not sought to convert anyone. You believe whatever you believe. But don't get your feelings hurt when MitD turns out to be something other than a protean.


It's not meaningless here. Since we don't firmly know what Rich has chosen or what he is thinking, we can't strictly prove anything is not correct. We can provide lots of supporting evidence that such-and-such could not be MitD's species, and all of them except one will ultimately prove correct, but at this time we cannot, strictly speaking, prove any of them.

The main thrust of my point is still entirely valid: "Prove MitD is not X" is a test that can be applied to any species, and would ultimately lead to the conclusion that the MitD cannot be anything. Since that cannot be true, I do not see the point in the exercise.

This thesis is demonstrably untrue. MitD is not a skeleton, nor is it an air elemental. They do not have characteristics displayed in comic by MitD. On the other hand, there are creatures we cannot falsify, Protean being one of them.

The standard here is not 'proof' but 'reasonable suspicion.' Can we logically deduce from available information what powers and traits MitD has then exclude possibilities which do not have those powers and traits? Absolutely. From the remaining list, can we seek out those which have traits and powers most like what we've seen? Absolutely. Is there a chance we can be wrong? Absolutely.

It is not reasonable to suspect MitD is a ghast. It has not demonstrated ghast traits, and traits it has demonstrated ghasts do not have. Can we similarly exclude Dao?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I don't know that the box was more flimsey than the wall of that fort, but that was not my point. My point was, why would any protean choose to remain on the same plane as the monster hunters who captured it, or Xykon who treats it like a tool?

Because the MitD doesn't realize Xykon treats him like a tool ("Xykon's not my master, he's just... A guy I hang around with. For some reasons."). He didn't realize the hunters captured it and thought it was better to just stay there to get more food and entertain children. He could throw the umbrella away. He could break the whole dungeon with a stomp of his foot. He could have escaped when he was alone outside his cage during Azure City siege and during the bout with Miko. He could probably single-handedly beat both Redcloak and Xykon if he used all his might. But he doesn't. Because he likes it here. Redcloak is a pal who answers most of his questions without insulting him too much, and lets him pull on ropes. Xykon is the guy who feeds him and gave him his current purpose in life as his ultimate weapon. Also, they think for him. After all "thinking is so... hard. It's just easier to let everyone else do it.". Pretty selfish, very chaotic reasons, but definitely not evil, and largely enough to explain that he's not going out. More recently, after the whole Soul Splice debacle, MitD has started following RC and X more to thwart their plans than anything else. He saves the OotS, voluntarily makes mistakes in marking the doors, and tries to have Xykon make mistakes to uncall the Quinton. Still definitely a chaotic way to do things, maybe leaning ever so slightly to good. Why would any protean try to go to another plane when all his friends and people who feed him are on this one?

Also, MitD demonstrably doesn't know how he used Planeshift/Wish/Reality Revision/Word of Recall/Escape. He tries to do it again, and fails. Be it because it's a 1/month SLA or because it was just a passing form for a Protean that he forgot is irrelevant, it's just not a valid argument for why he stays in the box.


I flipped the template: instead of looking at powers and characteristics that fit, I tried to see if there were ones which did not. I conclude that for MitD to be a protean, too many traits would have to be houseruled or characterized away.

That's not the point here. We know there's an answer, and we haven't found a perfect fit. Hence we look for a prospective answer that fits the MitD the better. Not perfectly, just more than any other monster.

[Ruck]

A baby may not know it is a human, but from birth it grabs things with its hand. There are, whether you like them or not, behaviors that are natural to a species.

For example, in my long lost youth my family dog whelped a litter of puppies. My sister found an abandoned kitten and brought it home. The dog took the kitten from the box my sister had it in, placed it with her litter, and nursed it. You probably know similar stories. My girlfriend had a cat that nursed a squirrel. Anyway, the kitten first opened its eyes on a litter of puppies, learned to walk and play with them. We had Kitty Cat for many years after Butterscotch passed, but in all that time I never heard it bark.
Likewise, while MitD may not know it isn't a dog, intrinsic behaviors natural to it will happen. (Like ESCAPE!)

I'm not sure how this helps your argument in any way.


My source was correct in large part.

No, it wasn't, as InvisibleBison already covered. You posted a Pathfinder source for the Protean, which is entirely different from the 3.5 Protean.


I'm not trying to nitpick or find fault. I'm trying to explain why a popular choice for MitD's species does not resonate for me. Some appear intent on proving me wrong, most just said something like 'Okay, but you have not convinced me.' Notice that I have not sought to convert anyone. You believe whatever you believe. But don't get your feelings hurt when MitD turns out to be something other than a protean.

Bolded is a meaningless shot at my mental state. Don't get your feelings hurt when he is.

Less snarkily, I am simply pointing out where your arguments are flawed: One, that your source for Protean is not the same source as is used for the D&D basis of OOTS. Two, that your other reasons why you are not convinced have to do with your assumptions about how a Protean would behave that are not supported by any text, and that particularly become less relevant in a story where one of the major themes, again, is that species does not dictate character and personality.

EDIT: Toward your last point:


That's not the point here. We know there's an answer, and we haven't found a perfect fit. Hence we look for a prospective answer that fits the MitD the better. Not perfectly, just more than any other monster.

Do you have an answer for a monster that fits better than a Protean? If you do, I'd be happy to hear it and discuss it. I don't. The Protean is the best answer I've found and the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me. If you've found something better, I'm happy to listen. I have not, and the MitD has to be something, so I am going with the species I think it is most likely to be.

Because we can find flaws and less-than-perfect fits for any creature. If we threw out everything that wasn't perfect, we would have nothing. But the MitD has to be something, not nothing.

[Kish]

I can’t lie that I’m the kind of guy to mention my candidate every time it fits, but for me the way Rich is treated is shocking and worth talking about by itself.

I don’t even know where to go from there. It’s all obvious to me, but I don’t say that to mean that it should be obvious to you. We’re coming from very different places.

I’ll try again, just to keep things going: If he wrote the story for the MitD first, and then picked a monster to fit,

Let me stop you right there. My problem with your arguments (beyond the addiction to obfuscating rhetoric) is that you keep acting like it's either 1) what you're arguing, or 2) something absurd. Find someone in this thread who's argued recently "he wrote the story for the MitD first and then picked a monster to fit"--in a way more actual than "that's all that you see as an alternative to the creature symbolizing something and being a writing prompt"--or this question is irrelevant here.


Let’s just count how many times he said no. First he said no right up front, then he said no with more words, then he said no with different words, and finally he said no because the first three times weren’t enough.

In any other context I have access to, I would be allowed to say he sounds agitated without having to “psychoanalyze” him first.

That is--any other context where it was accurate and valid to convert everything he said into just "no, no, no, no." Which would be...no context at all.

The problem people are having with your arguments isn't that you're defending Rich against goofy assumptions; it's that it appears, for you, that all the myriad possibilities that are neither your assumptions nor the designated nemesis of those assumptions is disappearing into the Astral Plane.

[brian 333]

No, it wasn't, as InvisibleBison already covered. You posted a Pathfinder source for the Protean, which is entirely different from the 3.5 Protean.
The PF source was virtually the same as the D&D source, which is unavailable online and In a book I do not own. Upon reading the D&D source posted in this thread, it turns out the PF protean is actually a better fit for MitD.


Bolded is a meaningless shot at my mental state. Don't get your feelings hurt when he is.
My apologies. It was not intended as a shot. It is a turn of phrase that was common back in the day which means something like, I agree that we disagree. And have no fear about my feelings being hurt, I don't bring them to the argument.


Two, that your other reasons why you are not convinced have to do with your assumptions about how a Protean would behave that are not supported by any text, and that particularly become less relevant in a story where one of the major themes, again, is that species does not dictate character and personality.
And yet, in comic, we see exactly that, over and over. Hobgoblins are militant warmongers, elves are freedom fighters, ogres are bloodthirsty bandits, and so on.

The few alignment differences that we see are actually part of the game, and has been since the beginning. (We did the first half of the original Demonweb pits with a Neutral Good aligned beholder on our team.)

What examples do we have in comic of creatures whose characters and personalities deviate from their species norm?


EDIT: Toward your last point:



Do you have an answer for a monster that fits better than a Protean? If you do, I'd be happy to hear it and discuss it. I don't. The Protean is the best answer I've found and the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me. If you've found something better, I'm happy to listen. I have not, and the MitD has to be something, so I am going with the species I think it is most likely to be.

Has Dao been excluded?


Because we can find flaws and less-than-perfect fits for any creature. If we threw out everything that wasn't perfect, we would have nothing. But the MitD has to be something, not nothing.
I'm not looking for a flawless, perfect fit. You are rejecting my premise on that basis, but it is not a condition I ever imposed. My original post in this thread was, "These are reasons I do not think Protean fits, even though Protean may be a better fit than anything else so far." How that gets to 'perect fit' is a leap or two beyond anything I stated or implied.

[InvisibleBison]

What examples do we have in comic of creatures whose characters and personalities deviate from their species norm?

Belkar, Sunny, the Oracle, Therkla, Hilgya, Leeky Windstaff, Kilkil, the IFCC Directors, arguably Tsukiko...

[Peelee]

Belkar, Sunny, the Oracle, Therkla, Hilgya, Leeky Windstaff, Kilkil, the IFCC Directors, arguably Tsukiko...

The Empress of Blood, Right-Eye, Oona, Hank, Bozzok, Veldrina, the hobgoblin cleric advisor in HtPGhS....

[Keltest]

The Empress of Blood, Right-Eye, Oona, Hank, Bozzok, Veldrina, the hobgoblin cleric advisor in HtPGhS....

Vaarsuvius, the commander of the elven strikeforce, Sabine, Goblin Dan, Pompey, Whichever Kobold it was that was Inigo Montoya...

[Peelee]

https://media.tenor.com/WAQ-f6mj70MAAAAd/toby-the.gif

[brian 333]

https://media.tenor.com/WAQ-f6mj70MAAAAd/toby-the.gif

Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms. The kobolds are more intelligent in OotSverse than in Faerun, but that's across the board, in the same way all goblins in OotSverse are Medium sized. All the rest listed? No deviation, other than Alignment, which is never absolute in any edition.

[Keltest]

Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms. The kobolds are more intelligent in OotSverse than in Faerun, but that's across the board, in the same way all goblins in OotSverse are Medium sized. All the rest listed? No deviation, other than Alignment, which is never absolute in any edition.

Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. If they differ in alignment, it's because they differ significantly in behavior.

[Tubercular Ox]

See, I don't get agitation from that answer at all, or even "saying no four times" like you're saying. I see someone answering "no" then giving a detailed explanation as to why the answer is "no."

And I see an agitated man. What do we do from here? Just keep asserting it to each other?

[InvisibleBison]

Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms. The kobolds are more intelligent in OotSverse than in Faerun, but that's across the board, in the same way all goblins in OotSverse are Medium sized. All the rest listed? No deviation, other than Alignment, which is never absolute in any edition.

By what standard does MitD deviate from the species norms of a protean, but Belkar not deviate from the species norms of a halfling?

[Kish]

I ask you who are the most fervent supporters of the protean to look at it from the other side: try to prove it is not. You may find it easier than you expect.
With or without referencing Pathfinder and frantically handwaving away the differences between that and D&D?

And I see an agitated man. What do we do from here? Just keep asserting it to each other?
The available evidence suggests that yes, you will go on making unsupported assertions and building towers of rhetoric on them.

But, if you were to want to actually convince someone, my advice would be to start with a shared premise--if any exists--and try to build on that. Basic logic indicates you cannot convince anyone of anything with premises they do not agree with. "Roy is a human fighter, therefore..." is the beginning of a chain that could work for most people on this forum; "here Rich is showing an emotion you do not agree he is, and so his words can be paraphrased in a way that you believe drops almost the entirety of what he is saying, and therefore the creature in the darkness is clearly not a protean" dives straight off the dock with the first word and does nothing but swim further out to sea with every subsequent word.

[Tubercular Ox]

and so his words can be paraphrased in a way that you believe drops almost the entirety of what he is saying, and therefore the creature in the darkness is clearly not a protean"

That's not where I was going with this. I like your advice, we should look for common ground, but I'm here. Rich sounds agitated in that quote. That is my true and heartfelt belief. It is a feeling I get, not a conclusion I drew by counting how many times he said no. I counted out how many times he said no because that is my naive attempt to express what I believe in my heart to be true.

If I were selling Rich something, that answer would make me apologize and move on. If I were asking Rich out, that answer would break my heart.

It's not just this quote, but if I bring more quotes into it I'm building a tower of rhetoric again.

So what do we do? Where is common ground? What should I back up to talking about?

[Kish]

So what do we do? Where is common ground? What should I back up to talking about?
Something that we agree on.

Like, my immediate reaction to "if I bring in more quotes" is--would these be quotes that we agree with you about the significance of? No? Then that wouldn't bring us any closer to common ground, would it?

As far as I can tell looking back at your case for the Hunting Horror, the critical disagreement point is:

The creature in the darkness, which has been permanently shrouded in the darkness so far, makes sense as a creature that actively needs to avoid the light.

vs.

The creature in the darkness, which made no efforts to avoid the light when in his original forest and has consistently objected to being forcibly kept away from it by Xykon and Redcloak, makes NO sense as a creature that actively needs to avoid the light.

(Ruck, Grey Wolf, or others may also be thinking in terms of the creature's lack of physical defenses sufficient to explain why Miko, Haley, and Belkar were completely unable to make it feel even a tiny bit of pain with their weapons. That's a point that matters to me as well, but much less than the "actively wants light" thing. As I said many iterations of this thread ago when someone proposed a grue: The theory that he's a grue is comparable to using a creature's constant longing for garlic as evidence that he's a vampire.) I also do not think Rich respects "listed monster alignment" enough for "he has no actual listed alignment so he's flexible in a way a protean would not be" to hold up.

[brian 333]

With or without referencing Pathfinder and frantically handwaving away the differences between that and D&D?

Either way. As I said before, the Pathfinder version is actually a better fit because it has a natural form to return to, while the D&D version does not. Otherwise, both are in constant flux and doing crazy things like growing extra eyes, (MitD always has two,) or changing size from Diminutive to Gargantuan.(MitD always fits under the umbrella, and it never falls to the ground while MitD is being a flea.)

And I have not handwaved away any differences. There just aren't that many. Both are beings tainted by Chaos which view non-shapeshifters with contempt. What major difference disqualifies the PF version of Protean, but not the D&D version?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know that the box was more flimsey than the wall of that fort, but that was not my point. My point was, why would any protean choose to remain on the same plane as the monster hunters who captured it, or Xykon who treats it like a tool?
Again: why is this particular point directed at the protean? It applies equally to every suggestion that can pass the tower, and to every suggestion that can pass the Escape, and yet you chose to single out the protean. It makes you sound like you have an ax to grind.


And that's really just one piece among several that doesn't fit, as I have said.

If you, (generic you, not GW specifically,) are convinced protean is the best guess, (and I confess there are not many better choices with all of the abilities MitD has,) then that's your choice. I flipped the template:
This thread, for over 17 iterations now, has run on identifying the flaws of every creature above their pros. A brief look at section 3e will reveal that. So I do wonder why you call what you are doing "flipping the script" when it is in fact the MO of the thread.


instead of looking at powers and characteristics that fit, I tried to see if there were ones which did not. I conclude that for MitD to be a protean, too many traits would have to be houseruled or characterized away.
And yet you have done none of that. Instead, you looked at a different creature with the same name and have spent multiple post trying to declare them identical when they are obviously not.


The Author said MitD is not a homebrew, that we would recognize it once revealed, and that it could be guessed by the information presented in comic. Altering a creature a little, say with an age or alignment change, is one thing. When entire powers and characterization blocks are altered, it's too much. It is no longer recognizable as the original.
For example, would this "change entire powers" be something like use the powers from a completely different edition of the game, as you have done? Instead of actually look at the actual creature being suggested?

As far as I have seen, in fact, you have brought nothing to the table that has not already been addressed in Ruck's essay.


Has Dao been excluded?
No creature is ever "excluded". As I have explained repeatedly. So I suggest you spend some time perusing section 3, particularly but not exclusively 3e, to understand how this thread works.


I'm trying to explain why a popular choice for MitD's species does not resonate for me.
Why? If it doesn't, it doesn't. This thread does not exist to convince you of anything. That's literally the reason why I don't like the FBS from dropping under 6 entries. Now, I'd suggest you read on the actual creature being suggested rather than substituting for a different one and pretending they are the same, but if at the end of the day you like another one better, tell Crusher about it. And if you don't like any, tell Crusher that. But this thread doesn't exist to change anyone's mind, but to accumulate information. And so far, all I've gotten from you is "the PF version of the protean is not a good fit".

ETA:

Ruck, Grey Wolf, or others may also be thinking in terms of the creature's lack of physical defenses

No, I'm with you there. And if may be presumptive, I think Ruck might be too. While it is a lot more quantifiable to talk about quality of defences and whatnot, I'd say that the HH's issue with darkness is rather more central to my feeling of mismatch than anything else, at least as presented here. I don't recall if that was mentioned or not when first proposed, though.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Isn't there an entire post included as part of the base thread dedicated specifically to extolling the virtues of the protean as a candidate? Something no other candidate has? In light of that, objecting that the thread focuses mostly on the cons seem kind of hollow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't there an entire post included as part of the base thread dedicated specifically to extolling the virtues of the protean as a candidate? Something no other candidate has? In light of that, objecting that the thread focuses mostly on the cons seem kind of hollow.

No, there isn't.

GW

[Keltest]

As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.

The original essay is posted here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) With some minor revisions:


First, the background to my process:

Preamble

I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

Part 1: The Negative Case

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23810694&postcount=3), every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:


The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:



Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.)

It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. Or that we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.

Peelee has a theory (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24575576&postcount=404) that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:



In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be.

(NobleCuriosity has a good post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23634830&postcount=58) further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:


While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19156714#post19156714)). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html): As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).

My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

Part 2: The Positive Case

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesn’t conflict with my art explanation for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

So, the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.

Part 3: The Thematic Case

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23690023&postcount=186), to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23782161&postcount=811) and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) seen signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) of his intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) about character choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right/page2&p=19193861#post19193861), I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway).

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.

Conclusion

In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITD’s scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules to work (or the rules of space and time). I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

And this is what then?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And this is what then?

Not what you described.

GW

[Keltest]

Not what you described.

GW

You think a post subtitled as "why the mitd is a protean" included as part of the thread creation process is not an explicit endorsement of the protean based on its merits?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You think a post subtitled as "why the mitd is a protean" included as part of the thread creation process is not an explicit endorsement of the protean based on its merits?

Weird goal post moving there

GW

[Kish]

I am sure if I wanted to write a Why the MitD is a White Slaad post, it would also be permitted.

[Keltest]

I am sure if I wanted to write a Why the MitD is a White Slaad post, it would also be permitted.

And if there's a formal "heres the format for having an opinion piece included in the opening posts" instruction somewhere that I missed,, I'll retract my complaint. Absent that, the thread's claims to neutrality seem pretty false to me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And if there's a formal "heres the format for having an opinion piece included in the opening posts" instruction somewhere that I missed,, I'll retract my complaint. Absent that, the thread's claims to neutrality seem pretty false to me.

How many people have you known to come into this thread to attack White Slaad as a suggestion over the last 17 threads, Keltest? Therefore, how much need is there of an essay going through the pros and cons of the white slaad as a suggestion with a fine toothed comb?

I've literally written that essay twice, for what is worth, once in jest and once in earnest. It passed unremarked and I accept it is unremarkable, and therefore I need not drag it along to every new thread. But to this day there is not a single thread in which someone - including yourself in more than one occasion - hasn't come to this thread with the exclusive intention of "defeating" the protean and repeating tired old arguments that have long been known to be inaccurate. Therefore, I find it very useful to have a post relating to the protean but not one to the white slaad copied over. Should you and the other usual suspects suddenly get into your head that the slaad is the preeminent Chosen One and start banging on about how it cannot possibly be, possibly involving literal misreadings of the slaad's capabilities, maybe it'll be useful too to have one for them too.

Or heck, if one is written that is so detailed and thoughtful I want to keep it around to be able to reference myself even in absence of interest on the topic. That'd work too.

So yeah, the difference is that all you people who are incapable of letting rest the fact that other people think the protean fits nicely are constantly making me need Ruck's essay, and I'd rather not go hunting for it or writing my own version every ten or so pages. If and when that happens to any other suggestion, if someone comes along and writes one worth keeping, I'll happily add that one too. But I see no need to either write any other nor request one to be written.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

How many people have you known to come into this thread to attack White Slaad as a suggestion over the last 17 threads, Keltest? Therefore, how much need is there of an essay going through the pros and cons of the white slaad as a suggestion with a fine toothed comb?

I've literally written that essay twice, for what is worth, once in jest and once in earnest. It passed unremarked and I accept it is unremarkable, and therefore I need not drag it along to every new thread. But to this day there is not a single thread in which someone - including yourself in more than one occasion - hasn't come to this thread with the exclusive intention of "defeating" the protean and repeating tired old arguments that have long been known to be inaccurate. Therefore, I find it very useful to have a post relating to the protean but not one to the white slaad copied over. Should you and the other usual suspects suddenly get into your head that the slaad is the preeminent Chosen One and start banging on about how it cannot possibly be, possibly involving literal misreadings of the slaad's capabilities, maybe it'll be useful too to have one for them too.

Or heck, if one is written that is so detailed and thoughtful I want to keep it around to be able to reference myself even in absence of interest on the topic. That'd work too.

So yeah, the difference is that all you people who are incapable of letting the fact that other people think the protean rest are constantly making me need Ruck's essay, and I'd rather not go hunting for it or writing my own version every ten or so pages. If and when that happens to any other suggestion, if someone comes along and writes one worth keeping, I'll happily add that one too. But I see no need to either write any other nor request one to be written.

Grey Wolf

To be clear, I don't care why its there. The problem is that you are telling people that the thread is "neutral" while simultaneously endorsing a candidate, apparently in the formal stance as thread curator instead of as a poster voicing an opinion.

If there's a formal process for getting am essay posted, I can handle that since I can understand it being the only one somebody has cared enough to write one for. If the thread formally endorses the protean as a candidate, I would strongly disagree but wouldn't protest it since it's not my thread. Neither of those are the case.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The problem is that you are telling people that the thread is "neutral" while simultaneously endorsing a candidate

No I'm not.

And I'm honestly tired of hearing you tell me what I am doing (wrongly), while also simply ignoring what I tell you even when I take the time to spell it out. So good bye, Keltest. I really should know better by now than to try to interact with you in any positive way.

GW

[Peelee]

If there's a formal process for getting an essay posted

Curator guidelines can be found here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2). Also quoted below (bolding mine):
Certain project threads are curated by member volunteers who take responsibility for maintaining the consensus of conclusions from discussion, often because they have made the opening post in the thread and thus are the only non-moderators that can edit it. These curators bear no special title, and have no official authority; they are not moderators, and cannot ban discussion of issues they consider settled. Their sole responsibility is to maintain lists of information as represents the threads community's conclusions. Specifically, the curator cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed, prevent any given poster from participating, or make any sort of executive decision on what is or is not included in the opening post of a curated topic. Disruptive or chronically off-topic posters can still be reported to the forum moderation as normal, of course.

As this is an open forum, and multiple threads on a single topic (with competing curators and selection processes) are not allowed, choosing and agreeing to thread curators is a somewhat fraught process. We would prefer for there to be universal agreement, or, at least, broad consensus on appropriate curators, and that curators do their duty conscientiously and without bias. If a dispute arises about curation (either who is the curator or how the curator is doing their duty), it should be referred to the Moderators, who will contact the curator and the interested parties. In some cases, curators may, with moderator approval, determine some sort of democratic method for inclusion or exclusion of given material, as long as that method is fair and does not give them any unusual influence over the results.

In all cases, posters and curators must abide by the forum rules. Failure to do so will result in warnings or infractions, as appropriate. Continued dispute on the status of a thread may also result in it being closed for an indefinite period of time.

Grey Wolf is the current curator for the MitD thread. Any posts on the first page containing lists of information (or essays, as the case here) not made by Grey Wolf are thus not representative of the community's conclusions. If you wish to have a formal process for submitting an essay established, it is as follows: put it in a post after the curator is finished making a new thread as you would anything else you would like to say, because it has the same bearing as anything else you'd like to say. For example, if you wish to have it be before Ruck's protean essay or before Crusher's list of guesses, post before Ruck or Crusher do once the curator is finished making the thread.

[Ruck]

The PF source was virtually the same as the D&D source, which is unavailable online and In a book I do not own. Upon reading the D&D source posted in this thread, it turns out the PF protean is actually a better fit for MitD.

They're not "virtually the same," though. They are entirely different, as multiple people have pointed out to you, and half of your argument relies on pretending they are the same.


My apologies. It was not intended as a shot. It is a turn of phrase that was common back in the day which means something like, I agree that we disagree. And have no fear about my feelings being hurt, I don't bring them to the argument.

Apology accepted. While I didn't think you meant anything like that by it, I do have a problem with phrasing like that because it reads to me like my arguments are just being dismissed with "Oh, you're being emotional/irrational."


And yet, in comic, we see exactly that, over and over. Hobgoblins are militant warmongers, elves are freedom fighters, ogres are bloodthirsty bandits, and so on.

See, I don't think that's accurate either:


Some hobgoblins are militant warmongers; some are not. There's Tingtox and Pangtok from "How the Paladin Got His Scar." There's the old craftsman who makes the fake phylactery. There's Jirix, possibly.
The elves aren't really freedom fighters. the elven society mostly stays to their own affairs, only interfering in Azure City / Gobbotopia when they think they have some actionable intelligence. And then there's Vaarsuvius, who is an elf and certainly has a more complex personality and character than "freedom fighter," and Inkyrius, who is a baker, not a freedom fighter. And Aarindarius seems to spend most of their time in their tower researching magic, and the Iron Mage show seems to indicate a society of people not defined by "freedom fighters."
I think we only see one group of ogres in the entire strip, so I wouldn't use them to paint the whole species. Do we know how "bloodthirsty" they are? We only see them after Miko announces the group's intention to attack them.

Which I guess answers this question in part:


What examples do we have in comic of creatures whose characters and personalities deviate from their species norm?

Everyone else has already come up with numerous other examples in answer to this question, so let me follow it up with these questions:

What are halflings like as a species in OOTS? Are they all like Belkar, are they all like Serini, are they all like Hank, or are they all like something else?

What are orcs like in OOTS? Are they all like the island tribe, or are they all like the ones in On the Origin of PCs? Or are they all like something else?

What are dwarves like in OOTS? Are they all like Durkon? Are they all like Sidgi? Are they all like Thirden? Are they all like Hilgya? Are they all like the one who tries to assassinate Roy mistaking him for the King of Nowhere? Or are they all like something else?

What are half-orcs like in OOTS? Are they all like Bozzok, are they all like Therkla, or are they all like Thog? Or are they all like something else?

What are humans like in OOTS? Are they all like Roy, or Elan, or Eugene, or Shojo, or Girard, or Soon, or Haley, or Tarquin, or Julia, or the Cliffport Chief of Police, or Julio, or Laurin, or Miko, or Miron, or Hinjo, or Ian, or O-Chul, or Mia, or Sara, or the Cleric of Loki, or Old Blind Pete, or Crystal, or Lien, or Elan's Mother, or Sangwaan, or Niu, or Thanh, or O-Chul's auntie, or Zhou Bo? Or are they all like something else?

Heck, are all beholders like Sunny? Or are they all like something else?

EDIT: Actually, I wanted to add this and address it:


Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms.

This is such a broad, bold statement and you haven't supported it at all. You're going to have to demonstrate what exactly the "species norms" all characters of a species adhere to are, and how they adhere to it. Remember, your complaint is that the Protean doesn't have the character or personality you'd expect from a Protean, so you're going to need to meet that standard of all characters of a species displaying the same character and personality.


Has Dao been excluded?

I don't know what that is.


I'm not looking for a flawless, perfect fit. You are rejecting my premise on that basis, but it is not a condition I ever imposed. My original post in this thread was, "These are reasons I do not think Protean fits, even though Protean may be a better fit than anything else so far." How that gets to 'perect fit' is a leap or two beyond anything I stated or implied.

All right, well, then, I just have to go back to my original point since we're going in circles: You think the Pathfinder Protean and 3.5 Protean are virtually the same, even though they are not. You think species determines character and personality, even though one of the themes of the comic is that they do not, and there are a number of examples in the comic that they do not. These are the two fundamental flaws in your argument, and you seem to be dismissing all evidence against them. (Indeed, you have, multiple times, insisted the Pathfinder Protean and 3.5 Protean are the same when it has been spelled out in detail for you how they are not.)

I don't really care much about convincing anyone, since ultimately the answer won't be determined by who is convinced. I will, however, point out holes in any argument for/against any creature when I see them, and as I've said and others have explained in detail, your two major premises here are very flawed and not in accord with the evidence in the comic or the evidence in the ruleset. You are certainly welcome to keep working with those two premises, but they are not accurate and will not lead you to an accurate conclusion.

On to other posts...



And I see an agitated man. What do we do from here? Just keep asserting it to each other?

I don't know, but I think my interpretation is more solid given that I'm taking the words at face value and not trying to determine an emotional state from them.


And if there's a formal "heres the format for having an opinion piece included in the opening posts" instruction somewhere that I missed,, I'll retract my complaint. Absent that, the thread's claims to neutrality seem pretty false to me.

Well, someone would have to write it first.

As I recall, Grey Wolf asked me to add it to the top of the thread a few threads back, sometime after I'd written it. I don't think that necessarily shows bias on his part, just that no one's written anything like that about any of the other possible candidates. And it's a convenient way to have the entire case for the creature in one place. (And as he just said in this thread, he finds that useful to have.)

[Tzardok]

I don't know what that is.


The only dao that I know of in a D&D context are the genies of Elemental Earth. I don't know wether those are what brian is talking about.

One problem the Pathfinder protean (and the dao) have that the hagunemnon doesn't is that as outsiders they don't need to eat, while the MitD is until the last two books permanently hungry.

[Ruck]

Ruck, Grey Wolf, or others may also be thinking in terms of the creature's lack of physical defenses sufficient to explain why Miko, Haley, and Belkar were completely unable to make it feel even a tiny bit of pain with their weapons.

Forgot to get to this one. I had to look up in my own essay what I said:


The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him.

Reading your post, though, I was reminded of how much the MitD enjoys the sunshine in the deep rainforest (and certainly doesn't act like he suffers any ill effect from it), which is pretty strong evidence he is not damaged by light.

[Fyraltari]

Reading your post, though, I was reminded of how much the MitD enjoys the sunshine in the deep rainforest (and certainly doesn't act like he suffers any ill effect from it), which is pretty strong evidence he is not damaged by light.

Unless, of course, the lantern archons were right all along (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html).

[Ruck]

Unless, of course, the lantern archons were right all along (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html).

Heh heh heh.

Although he did say if it hurts. I think he would know if light previously hurt him. But he might know this could hurt since it's an attack ("scorching justice of deadly rays of light" and all).

[Tzardok]

By the way, is there a reason why this thread uses "protean" instead of "hagunemnon"? I think it would reduce the possibility of confusing it with other "proteans".

[brian 333]

They're not "virtually the same," though. They are entirely different, as multiple people have pointed out to you, and half of your argument relies on pretending they are the same.
...
All right, well, then, I just have to go back to my original point since we're going in circles: You think the Pathfinder Protean and 3.5 Protean are virtually the same, even though they are not. You think species determines character and personality, even though one of the themes of the comic is that they do not, and there are a number of examples in the comic that they do not. These are the two fundamental flaws in your argument, and you seem to be dismissing all evidence against them. (Indeed, you have, multiple times, insisted the Pathfinder Protean and 3.5 Protean are the same when it has been spelled out in detail for you how they are not.)

I linked the Pathfinder version of Protean because it is similar enough to the D&D version to illustrate my point, and I could not find any other online source for the D&D protean. Having read the D&D version posted in this thread, it turns out that my primary point is still correct: the characterization of MitD is not consistent with that of the D&D protean.

In fact, the D&D version is a worse fit than the Pathfinder version because it is incapable of not constantly altering its size, the number of its eyes, and other physical characteristics. A D&D protean would, in turn, be too large to be contained in the box or hidden beneath the umbrella, too small to hold up the umbrella, and have a varying number and placement of eyes. Monster-san has been consistently portrayed in every detail that we can see. It is not a being whose body is in constant flux.

And so far, nobody has said how the PF version is so different that it invalidates my points. Both are creatures imbued with Chaos, both are natural, and involuntary, shape shifters, both hold beings which cannot shapeshift in contempt, both will attempt to pervert any attempt to control them. In every way that I cited as a reason protean does not work, they are the same. The differences, however, favor the PF version over the D&D version because a baby D&D protean has no shape at all. It is just a quivering lump of flesh in constant flux. At least the PF version has a native form it can revert to when not being something else.

Belkar is barefoot and likes food.
Both half orcs we've seen have had careers which necessitate violence.
All of the dwarves are clannish cave dwellers, (even Hilgya.)
In fact, all of the OotS characters are stereotypical for their species, with exceptions tacked on. None of them violate the general outline in the Monster Manual. We don't have weak half-orcs, stupid elves, or bards who cannot sing, (all characters I have seen played out in tabletop games.) Heck, we don't even have Joe the Fighter, who rolled 1 on his HD for the first three levels.

So, I do not expect MitD to deviate from the MM entry for it's species. It will not be the one protean capable of maintaining it's shape from infancy. It certainly may, and probably will, have cosmetic differences, but any difference will be in addition to rather than instead of the attributes assigned by the MM.

But what about Sunny? She's different!
Only in age and alignment. Otherwise, bog-standard D&D beholder. She is recognizable as her species. Now give her legs or arms? Then she's not a beholder any more.

The same applies to the MitD. She may have a different alignment, (the Monster Manual specifically says alignment deviation is possible,) but she will not be different from the MM description of her species, and her in comic portrayal to date invalidates protean as a possibility.

The Giant may have ideas that invalidate my assessment. The protean does have abilities which mimic or duplicate what we have seen in comic. I could be wrong. But in my opinion, protean does not fit what we can see of MitD. And so far, no one has been able to demonstrate how my points are invalid.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

By the way, is there a reason why this thread uses "protean" instead of "hagunemnon"? I think it would reduce the possibility of confusing it with other "proteans".

It's a heck of a lot easier to spell (no, seriously, that's my own personal reason). Also, the confusing-with-others is not that lessened with hagunemnon; we've had confusion with the haggunenons of HHGttG.

Grey Wolf

[Tzardok]

Never heard of them before, but those reasons together are valid.

[Keltest]

I linked the Pathfinder version of Protean because it is similar enough to the D&D version to illustrate my point, and I could not find any other online source for the D&D protean. Having read the D&D version posted in this thread, it turns out that my primary point is still correct: the characterization of MitD is not consistent with that of the D&D protean.

In fact, the D&D version is a worse fit than the Pathfinder version because it is incapable of not constantly altering its size, the number of its eyes, and other physical characteristics. A D&D protean would, in turn, be too large to be contained in the box or hidden beneath the umbrella, too small to hold up the umbrella, and have a varying number and placement of eyes. Monster-san has been consistently portrayed in every detail that we can see. It is not a being whose body is in constant flux.

And so far, nobody has said how the PF version is so different that it invalidates my points. Both are creatures imbued with Chaos, both are natural, and involuntary, shape shifters, both hold beings which cannot shapeshift in contempt, both will attempt to pervert any attempt to control them. In every way that I cited as a reason protean does not work, they are the same. The differences, however, favor the PF version over the D&D version because a baby D&D protean has no shape at all. It is just a quivering lump of flesh in constant flux. At least the PF version has a native form it can revert to when not being something else.

Belkar is barefoot and likes food.
Both half orcs we've seen have had careers which necessitate violence.
All of the dwarves are clannish cave dwellers, (even Hilgya.)
In fact, all of the OotS characters are stereotypical for their species, with exceptions tacked on. None of them violate the general outline in the Monster Manual. We don't have weak half-orcs, stupid elves, or bards who cannot sing, (all characters I have seen played out in tabletop games.) Heck, we don't even have Joe the Fighter, who rolled 1 on his HD for the first three levels.

So, I do not expect MitD to deviate from the MM entry for it's species. It will not be the one protean capable of maintaining it's shape from infancy. It certainly may, and probably will, have cosmetic differences, but any difference will be in addition to rather than instead of the attributes assigned by the MM.

But what about Sunny? She's different!
Only in age and alignment. Otherwise, bog-standard D&D beholder. She is recognizable as her species. Now give her legs or arms? Then she's not a beholder any more.

The same applies to the MitD. She may have a different alignment, (the Monster Manual specifically says alignment deviation is possible,) but she will not be different from the MM description of her species, and her in comic portrayal to date invalidates protean as a possibility.

The Giant may have ideas that invalidate my assessment. The protean does have abilities which mimic or duplicate what we have seen in comic. I could be wrong. But in my opinion, protean does not fit what we can see of MitD. And so far, no one has been able to demonstrate how my points are invalid.


I strongly dislike the protean as a candidate, but this is an incredibly superficial examination of all the characters involved. Heck, the comic itself has called out how Belkar does not behave as a "traditional" halfling does (which is half the joke of his character) being violent with severe anger issues rather than a jolly farmer type.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I linked the Pathfinder version of Protean because it is similar enough to the D&D version to illustrate my point, and I could not find any other online source for the D&D protean. Having read the D&D version posted in this thread, it turns out that my primary point is still correct: the characterization of MitD is not consistent with that of the D&D protean.
No, it is not. They differ in powerset, creature type, alignment, AND fluff. They are literally as different as two creatures can be.


Monster-san has been consistently portrayed in every detail that we can see. It is not a being whose body is in constant flux.
Yes, we know. It is literally a con in the first post. And a reasonable explanation is in Ruck's essay. If all you bring to the table is already in the first post, I really do wonder what you think you are adding to the conversation. Like I said, if you are unconvinced, you are unconvinced. Either find something better, or declare something else your preference, or accept this thread hasn't found a candidate to your liking. But this is not helpful.


a baby D&D protean has no shape at all. It is just a quivering lump of flesh in constant flux.
A protean has a size. Nothing anywhere indicates that a protean in constant flux isn't the listed size. It can become larger or smaller by use of its power, but by default, it's rolling mass of changes stays Large - thus explaining the "you'll get bigger" comments about the Medium sized MitD. Again, as before, this has been said over and over.


Belkar is barefoot and likes food.
Both half orcs we've seen have had careers which necessitate violence.
All of the dwarves are clannish cave dwellers, (even Hilgya.)
This (and every other like it in your posts) is an exercise in both special pleading and cherry picking. You are brushing aside every way in which they are not stereotypical by claiming they are "exceptions" even though the fact they are exceptional already nulls your argument, while also cherry picking which characteristics are the "core" for each species to suit your argument. I can do that too: I declare, just as you are doing, that a protean core stereotypical characteristic is "desire for change", which we see in MitD in his desire to leave the shadows, and I declare that his retaining a face like those around him is the exception that somehow we can ignore. There. MtiD is a perfect, valid member of its group just like all your other strained examples.

Except of course it doesn't work that way. There is no stereotypes all people adhere to in Rich's story. Dwarves come in all manner of personalities, outlooks and lifestyles. As do orcs, goblins and every other society we have seen. And even the one-offs that have given enough page time have been shown to be individuals, not cookie-cutter members of stereotypical sameness. And given the author is outspokenly against doing what you are suggesting he is doing, your entire argument is just nonsense in the face of it.

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

In fact, the D&D version is a worse fit than the Pathfinder version because it is incapable of not constantly altering its size, the number of its eyes, and other physical characteristics.

This is completely incorrect. A protean is perfectly capable of maintaining a consistent form for an arbitrarily long time if it chooses to spend a move action each round maintaining its shape. You may not find it likely that a protean would choose to do so, but to say that it is incapable of doing so is just wrong.

Also, a protean doesn't change size when it isn't controlling its form. The ability only mentions size changes as one of the things a protean can alter when it actively shapeshifts into a new form.


And so far, nobody has said how the PF version is so different that it invalidates my points. Both are creatures imbued with Chaos, both are natural, and involuntary, shape shifters, both hold beings which cannot shapeshift in contempt, both will attempt to pervert any attempt to control them. In every way that I cited as a reason protean does not work, they are the same.

I'm pretty sure people have in fact said how the differences invalidate your points, but to reiterate: The D&D protean is not imbued with chaos and it is not any more inclined or able to pervert attempts to control it than any other creature.


Belkar is barefoot and likes food.

Neither being barefoot nor liking food are typical elements of halflings. What is typical of halflings is their desire to "try to get along with everyone else" (PHB p. 19, MM p. 149). That doesn't sound like Belkar to me.


Both half orcs we've seen have had careers which necessitate violence.

The half-orc steroetype isn't that they do violence. It's that they are brutish thugs. But that's not how many half-orcs in OOTS are depicted - compare the PHB's statement that "[r]efined enjoyments such as poetry, courtly dancing, and philosphy are lost on [half-orcs]" with Therkla's love of romance novels.


All of the dwarves are clannish cave dwellers, (even Hilgya.)

How exactly is Hilgya clannish? She ran away from the fate her clan chose for her, then financially ruined them. There's also no reason to think she lives in a cave.

There are also other dwarves who don't display any signs of being "clannish cave dwellers", such as the dwarven assassin who tried to kill Roy or Kraagor.


In fact, all of the OotS characters are stereotypical for their species, with exceptions tacked on.

No, there are lots of characters who are not stereotypes. A whole bunch of them have been mentioned already, and you have failed to disprove any of them. You cannot simply assert your position is true, you have to actually prove it.


But what about Sunny? She's different!
Only in age and alignment. Otherwise, bog-standard D&D beholder.

Well, beholders typically have ten eye-stalks and Sunny has eight, but that might be a copyright issue, so we'll set it aside. Far more dispositive to your position is that Sunny does not act as the Monster Manual describes beholders: "Beholders are hateful, aggressive, and avaricious, attacking or dominating others whenever they can get away with it. They exhibit a xenophboic intolerance, hating all creatures not like themselves." The fact that Sunny acts completely contrary to that description is why they are an example of how characters in OOTS don't always conform to their description in the Monster Manual.

[Tzardok]

alignment,

Alignment? Both proteans are Always Chaotic Neutral, aren't they?

Otherwise I pretty much agree with you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Alignment? Both proteans are Always Chaotic Neutral, aren't they?

Otherwise I pretty much agree with you.

Oh, sorry, if that is the case, my mistake. I had the recollection one was "usually" rather than "always"

ETA:

"[r]efined enjoyments such as petry[...]"
I've just spent something like 5 minutes trying to remember what "petry" might be - thinking maybe it's some victorian term for breeding small animals - before I realised it's a typo of poetry. And suddenly, I want a term for the refined art of breeding small rat dogs by well-to-do ladies.

GW

[Peelee]

We don't have .... bards who cannot sing
Bards are not a creature type.

[Keltest]

Bards are not a creature type.

For that matter, we did have a bard who cant sing: Squeaky's apprentice.

[Tzardok]

For that matter, we did have a bard who cant sing: Squeaky's apprentice.

First, she could sing, she just couldn't sing well. :smalltongue:

Second, only in the flashback. In the present, her notes are straight.

[Ruck]

I linked the Pathfinder version of Protean because it is similar enough to the D&D version to illustrate my point, and I could not find any other online source for the D&D protean.

No, it is not! You keep repeating it is, but you have in no way demonstrated it.


And so far, nobody has said how the PF version is so different that it invalidates my points.

Here are at least two people who have:


No, it's actually very different:

Most notably, D&D proteans are not "physical embodiment of Chaos".


I did "read the whole label", most notably the part that says "Large Aberration (Shapechanger)" and not "Large Outsider (Chaos, Shapechanger)". There's no contradiction between MitD's characterization in the comic and how the game depicts proteans, only between said characterization and your misunderstanding of what proteans are.


No, it is not. They different in powerset, creature type, [S]alignment, AND fluff. They are literally as different as two creatures can be.

Here are the two descriptions side by side. There are numerous differences. They are not even the same creature type! The 3.5 Protean is an aberration; the Pathfinder Protean is an outsider. 3.5 Proteans are described as ever-changing tides of flesh; Pathfinder Proteans are described as "serpentine." They don't have the same powers at all. They don't have the same fluff at all. Pathfinder lists four types of Protean, and the Hagunemnon is not among them.

The ultimate shapeshifter, a hagunemnon can take on the extraordinary abilities of any other nondeific creature.

Hagunemnons, also known as proteans, have no natural shape; they always appear in flux, incorporating the physical attributes of two, three, or more creatures simultaneously. Their forms boil with possibility, and rarely does any attribute last for more than a minute. Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing.

Tainted with chaos at the time of their race's creation, proteans are denied the stability that most races enjoy. This has imbued them with undying hatred of all non-shapechanging beings (they tolerate other shapechangers but look down upon them for remaining in the same shape for hours or even days at a time). Hagunemnons travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinary abilities to assume. Their xenophobia generally results in their attempting to slay other beings after copying them.

Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it. They can speak and understand the language of any other creature.

Beings of pure chaos, the serpentine proteans slither through the anarchic improbabilities of Limbo, remaking reality according to their whims. According to their own history, they were already here when the first gods pulled forth the other planes from raw chaos—and they have been battling against the indignity ever since. Hereditary and ideological enemies of Axis, Heaven, and Hell, and especially of the residents of those planes, all proteans see it as their sacred duty to return the bland, static expanses of mundane reality to the beautiful incongruities of Limbo, for the planes’ own good and for the greater glory of their mysterious god, a dualistic deity which may be a living aspect of Limbo itself. They are Limbo’s living, breathing immune system, rooting out infections of mundanity and replacing them with beautiful entropy. Primeval in shape and philosophy, proteans are the race that most perfectly embodies the twin aspects of creation and destruction (although certain aeons might contest this claim). Even their language is mutable, evolving so quickly that few outsiders can understand it without magical aid. Ecological study is nearly impossible, as reproduction can take a wide variety of forms, from sexual union to fission to spontaneous generation. Despite their deceptively similar natural appearances, the two things that truly unify the protean race are slavish devotion to their strange god and a fervent desire for the dissolution of reality as we know it.

Proteans are organized into several sub-races or castes, each with its own individual abilities and roles. Other proteans than the four presented here doubtless exist, but they do not interact with other races nearly to the extent that these four types do.

Voidworms: Disowned by greater proteans, who find these tiny beings shameful, voidworms nevertheless retain all the characteristics of true proteans, and are frequently found swimming through Limbo in vast schools or serving as spellcasters’ familiars.

Naunets: Possessing little in the way of culture, the powerful naunets are the most bestial of the true proteans, representing the lowest recognized caste. Naunets are the shock troops of the protean race, and patrol the borderlands between Limbo and other planes, seeking out lawful incursions and making daring, savage raids into the realms of their enemies.

Imenteshes: These cunning proteans seek to subvert the forces of order from within their own systems, whispering information and insinuations where they can do the most damage. Endlessly creative, they adore reforming the landscapes of Limbo to suit their fancies, but enjoy warping the vistas and creatures of other planes even more.

Keketars: Priest-kings and voices of Limbo itself, keketars rule their fellows in the name of their bizarre god. Though their forms are extremely mutable, keketars can always be recognized thanks to eyes that glow amber or violet and floating crowns of swirling and changing symbols that often appear above their heads. Organized into cabals called choruses, keketars seek only to understand and follow the will of entropy.
Can you find the differences between the two descriptions here? I'm sure you can.


And so far, no one has been able to demonstrate how my points are invalid.

People have repeatedly. And, as Grey Wolf said with your argument that every species in OOTS is a stereotype, you have chosen to handwave away without explanation or outright ignore every piece of evidence that contradicts your arguments statements. (I can't even call them arguments, since you don't support them; you just insist they're true and when people show you evidence that they're not, you repeat your insistence.) That's why this is getting nowhere.

[Tubercular Ox]

As far as I can tell looking back at your case for the Hunting Horror

Thank you for your critique, but I'd like to back up even farther than the HH. I think we agree Rich has a personality, and I often have a sensation that we are all in broad agreement on what it is, but then a switch flips and suddenly we're concluding opposite things from the same sources. For example, how to read the quote about alternate MitD's.

[Kish]

Thank you for your critique, but I'd like to back up even farther than the HH. I think we agree Rich has a personality, and I often have a sensation that we are all in broad agreement on what it is, but then a switch flips and suddenly we're concluding opposite things from the same sources. For example, how to read the quote about alternate MitD's.
Sure. It seems evident to me (and, I think, also to Ruck and Grey Wolf) that his answer to the question posed was an answer to that question (no, there is no creature that would fit the story better and here's why), but you seem to be viewing it instead as an expression of being mortally offended by the question. And to support this you brought in two comparisons in which, instead of asking a question for information, you asked him to do something, so that taking "no" to mean offense made more sense.

[woweedd]

I linked the Pathfinder version of Protean because it is similar enough to the D&D version to illustrate my point, and I could not find any other online source for the D&D protean. Having read the D&D version posted in this thread, it turns out that my primary point is still correct: the characterization of MitD is not consistent with that of the D&D protean.

In fact, the D&D version is a worse fit than the Pathfinder version because it is incapable of not constantly altering its size, the number of its eyes, and other physical characteristics. A D&D protean would, in turn, be too large to be contained in the box or hidden beneath the umbrella, too small to hold up the umbrella, and have a varying number and placement of eyes. Monster-san has been consistently portrayed in every detail that we can see. It is not a being whose body is in constant flux.

And so far, nobody has said how the PF version is so different that it invalidates my points. Both are creatures imbued with Chaos, both are natural, and involuntary, shape shifters, both hold beings which cannot shapeshift in contempt, both will attempt to pervert any attempt to control them. In every way that I cited as a reason protean does not work, they are the same. The differences, however, favor the PF version over the D&D version because a baby D&D protean has no shape at all. It is just a quivering lump of flesh in constant flux. At least the PF version has a native form it can revert to when not being something else.

Belkar is barefoot and likes food.
Both half orcs we've seen have had careers which necessitate violence.
All of the dwarves are clannish cave dwellers, (even Hilgya.)
In fact, all of the OotS characters are stereotypical for their species, with exceptions tacked on. None of them violate the general outline in the Monster Manual. We don't have weak half-orcs, stupid elves, or bards who cannot sing, (all characters I have seen played out in tabletop games.) Heck, we don't even have Joe the Fighter, who rolled 1 on his HD for the first three levels.

So, I do not expect MitD to deviate from the MM entry for it's species. It will not be the one protean capable of maintaining it's shape from infancy. It certainly may, and probably will, have cosmetic differences, but any difference will be in addition to rather than instead of the attributes assigned by the MM.

But what about Sunny? She's different!
Only in age and alignment. Otherwise, bog-standard D&D beholder. She is recognizable as her species. Now give her legs or arms? Then she's not a beholder any more.

The same applies to the MitD. She may have a different alignment, (the Monster Manual specifically says alignment deviation is possible,) but she will not be different from the MM description of her species, and her in comic portrayal to date invalidates protean as a possibility.

The Giant may have ideas that invalidate my assessment. The protean does have abilities which mimic or duplicate what we have seen in comic. I could be wrong. But in my opinion, protean does not fit what we can see of MitD. And so far, no one has been able to demonstrate how my points are invalid.
I feel you may be missing a major point of the storyline.

[Kish]

Or possibly blatantly dodging a major point of the storyline because Brian reacts to the idea "it's wrong to make universal generalizations based on race in any game ever" like it was a basilisk's gaze, who knows?

[Tubercular Ox]

Sure. It seems evident to me (and, I think, also to Ruck and Grey Wolf) that his answer to the question posed was an answer to that question (no, there is no creature that would fit the story better and here's why), but you seem to be viewing it instead as an expression of being mortally offended by the question. And to support this you brought in two comparisons in which, instead of asking a question for information, you asked him to do something, so that taking "no" to mean offense made more sense.

I'm sorry, I got lost. Is "his answer" Ruck's or Grey Wolf's? What was the question posed? There were a lot of them. I think I can figure out the rest if you give me that.

[Kish]

"His answer" is Rich's, what you called the "quote about alternate MitDs." You brought it up as an example of how clearly agitated he was (because he said no, and expanded on it instead of stopping at one word).

[Fyraltari]

"His answer" is Rich's, what you called the "quote about alternate MitDs." You brought it up as an example of how clearly agitated he was (because he said no, and expanded on it instead of stopping at one word).

Monosyllabic responses are the markers of a calm and rational discussion, you know.

[brian 333]

I feel you may be missing a major point of the storyline.

No, I get the point. But being aware that people can differ from your expectations is vastly different from pigeonholing all beings of a particular species into a single cubby.

Look at the half orcs we have seen in comic: Thog and Therkla. Both characters are typical half orcs: one is a member of the only class which allowed unlimited advancement to a half-orc in 1st ed, while the other is literally the stereotype for half-orc barbarian. Do they also have unique personalities? Of course, they are PCs. (Or PC classed NPCs for the pedantic.)

Is it bad that these characters adhere to stereotype so exactly that they could pose for the illustration in the Player's Handbook? No.

What is bad is when we assume that that is all[/] they can be. (Which would completely ruin my character Hugdush, the half-orc gourmet chef. (I played him on NwN for years, and I think he made it to third level on DM awarded exp.)) The author's point is not that every creature has to be a unique individual with traits that differ from the book, but that [I]any being deserves to be treated as a unique individual, rather than killed because it doesn't look like what you see in the mirror. Good goblins? Yes, very possible. Evil goblins? Again possible. Neither is fair game to kill just because they are green.

There are large numbers of creatures in the comic who look and act just like the Monster Manual description. If one must be killed, the one planning to do the killing must have a good reason that is not, "Those are always Evil," or, "Monster! Kill it and take its stuff!"

How we get from that very valid point to, Monster-san can't be like the Monster Manual," or even, "Probably won't be like," is beyond me. And as for, "We can ignore attributes the Monster Manual assigns to Monster-san that don't fit because the author does this all the time?" First, no he doesn't. He gives them unique personalities, not unique characteristics. Second, he has said we would be able to recognize the Monster. Deviate from the Monster Manual and it becomes a homebrew. "But it's just like this, if we make these changes to the creature's mechanical characterization," in my opinion, invalidates the choice.

I apologize to Grey Wolf. It was not my intent to hijack his thread with this digression. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, let's please make another thread for that.

[Tubercular Ox]

"His answer" is Rich's, what you called the "quote about alternate MitDs." You brought it up as an example of how clearly agitated he was (because he said no, and expanded on it instead of stopping at one word).

Thank you. Dunno how I got lost.

I don't consider "just answering the question" a valid null hypothesis. I don't think people work that way. The null hypothesis is that they care about something.

It's a valid hypothesis. It's possible he's just answering the question. But it's not a privileged hypothesis in the way a null hypothesis is privileged.

I'm not asking you to agree with me. We're exploring differences.

[Ruck]

Look at the half orcs we have seen in comic: Thog and Therkla. Both characters are typical half orcs: one is a member of the only class which allowed unlimited advancement to a half-orc in 1st ed, while the other is literally the stereotype for half-orc barbarian. Do they also have unique personalities? Of course, they are PCs. (Or PC classed NPCs for the pedantic.)
Not sure what 1st edition has to do with a story originally built on 3.5.

And how about Bozzok? He's an intelligent schemer who runs a thieves' guild and has a human woman do most of his dirty work. What's stereotypical about that?

This is a story; there are no PCs. If there were PCs, they would be The Order of the Stick.


How we get from that very valid point

You've been cherry-picking to make your point "valid," though. Any trait that a character displays that isn't stereotypical for their race doesn't count in your eyes. Of course you can say they're all stereotypes if you throw out every way they're not.


to, Monster-san can't be like the Monster Manual," or even, "Probably won't be like," is beyond me. And as for, "We can ignore attributes the Monster Manual assigns to Monster-san that don't fit because the author does this all the time?" First, no he doesn't. He gives them unique personalities, not unique characteristics. Second, he has said we would be able to recognize the Monster. Deviate from the Monster Manual and it becomes a homebrew. "But it's just like this, if we make these changes to the creature's mechanical characterization," in my opinion, invalidates the choice.

But, again, you're using the wrong Monster Manual, and you are bringing a number of assumptions about how the species should act that are not in any Monster Manual and can't be just considered a "well-known stereotype" considering how rare the species is.


I apologize to Grey Wolf. It was not my intent to hijack his thread with this digression. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, let's please make another thread for that.

It's not really a hijack since we're still talking about MitD; I would surmise that any frustration people have is due to your total unwillingness to acknowledge, for example, that you are using the entirely wrong source information for a Protean and keep insisting it is virtually the same when it is not even close.


Thank you. Dunno how I got lost.

I don't consider "just answering the question" a valid null hypothesis. I don't think people work that way. The null hypothesis is that they care about something.

I think "assuming a lot of emotional subtext in anything anyone says, ever," is a lot further from the valid null hypothesis than "people say what they mean."

[Tubercular Ox]

I think "assuming a lot of emotional subtext in anything anyone says, ever," is a lot further from the valid null hypothesis than "people say what they mean."

Where would you put, "Sometimes people say things without thinking them all the way through" ?

[brian 333]

But, again, you're using the wrong Monster Manual, and you are bringing a number of assumptions about how the species should act that are not in any Monster Manual and can't be just considered a "well-known stereotype" considering how rare the species is.

I acknowledged the PF entry was the wrong one two pages back after the correct entry was posted, and since then have been basing my hypothesis on the correct one. The D&D version is actually a worse fit than the PF version.

And for the record, there is a difference between characteristics and personality. Personality quirks play no part in my theorizing, though they have been universally used to justify posts saying how wrong I am. Bozzok is a half orc running a thieves' guild? Half orc thieves' guild enforcers have been a stereotype since 1st ed.

[InvisibleBison]

And for the record, there is a difference between characteristics and personality. Personality quirks play no part in my theorizing, though they have been universally used to justify posts saying how wrong I am. Bozzok is a half orc running a thieves' guild? Half orc thieves' guild enforcers have been a stereotype since 1st ed.

Bozzok isn't the Thieves' Guild enforcer; Crystalis the enforcer. Bozzok is the head of the guild. If you have to be wrong about a character in order for them to not disprove your point, your point is wrong.

Also, it's interesting to note how your position started out as "Every monster and character in the comic has been true to the text of the Monster Manual", and has since shifted into arguing that every character is a stereotype. Even if we don't use your incredibly broad definition of stereotype, those two ideas are not the same.

[Peelee]

Both characters are typical half orcs: one is a member of the only class which allowed unlimited advancement to a half-orc in 1st ed

Half orc thieves' guild enforcers have been a stereotype since 1st ed.

Way back in like the early aughts or so, I saw An Evening with Kevin Smith. Very funny, I loved it. You can get a feel of why he succeeded in Hollywood, he is a consummate storyteller, just in his element regaling tales to people. Anyway, he was asked a question on his involvement in a Superman movie, and long story short, went to Jon Peters' house to discuss the script he had written for it. Peter's wanted more action, and said he wanted Brainiac, the villain of the piece, to have a fight outside the Fortress of Solitude while Superman was away. He ultimately decided on a polar bear, and asked Kevin Smith if he knew anything about polar bears. "Polar bears are the fiercest killers in the animal kingdom", Peters proclaimed.

They finish with the script, and Peters states that he has three points he wants and will not budge on - no suit/cape, no flying, and for Superman to fight a giant spider in the third act. Kevin Smith bypasses the cape and suit issues and asks about the giant spider, to which Jon Peters replies, "spiders are the fiercest killers in the insect kingdom".



I wonder how much more we'll hear about the fiercest killers in th1st ed.

[Ruck]

InvisibleBison got to the claim about Bozzok quicker and better than I would have, so I'll just say:


I acknowledged the PF entry was the wrong one two pages back after the correct entry was posted, and since then have been basing my hypothesis on the correct one. The D&D version is actually a worse fit than the PF version.

How? Demonstrate it. This is another assertion, an unproven claim. If you want specific points to refute, I wrote about 4,000 words on why I think it is the best fit, so if you don't have any specifics, you could start there and try to pick those apart.


They finish with the script, and Peters states that he has three points he wants and will not budge on - no suit/cape, no flying, and for Superman to fight a giant spider in the third act. Kevin Smith bypasses the cape and suit issues and asks about the giant spider, to which Jon Peters replies, "spiders are the fiercest killers in the insect kingdom".

I thought that name sounded familiar, so I went to double-check. Guess who produced Wild Wild West.

[b_jonas]

This is a story; there are no PCs. The hobgoblins believe that there are PCs, #455 last panel. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)

[Peelee]

I thought that name sounded familiar, so I went to double-check. Guess who produced Wild Wild West.

Kevin Smith touches on that in the story. :smallwink:

[Ruck]

Kevin Smith touches on that in the story. :smallwink:

I hadn't listened to the Smith story, but I remembered the name because Tom Breihan's The Number Ones series on Stereogum talked about the making of the movie when he got to "Wild Wild West" (and he even links to the Smith story). Apparently Peters started out as Barbra Streisand's hairdresser?

[Peelee]

I hadn't listened to the Smith story, but I remembered the name because Tom Breihan's The Number Ones series on Stereogum talked about the making of the movie when he got to "Wild Wild West" (and he even links to the Smith story). Apparently Peters started out as Barbra Streisand's hairdresser?

Another thing he touches on in the story. You can Google "evening with Kevin Smith superman lives" and catch that specific bit on YouTube. Which I recommend. Great storyteller.

[Kish]

Where would you put, "Sometimes people say things without thinking them all the way through" ?
Considering it's standing in for "in this specific online interview, where Rich deliberately chose to answer questions (and not to free-associate about whatever emotions those questions made him feel), the fact that his answer to one specific question includes the word 'no' more than once shows that he is highly offended by the question," I'd call it "doesn't say anything about Rich's emotional or mental state but does say something about that of the person arguing for that interpretation," myself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How? Demonstrate it.

I believe they are referring to this post:

Either way. As I said before, the Pathfinder version is actually a better fit because it has a natural form to return to, while the D&D version does not. Otherwise, both are in constant flux and doing crazy things like growing extra eyes, (MitD always has two,) or changing size from Diminutive to Gargantuan.(MitD always fits under the umbrella, and it never falls to the ground while MitD is being a flea.)

So, essentially, the old assertion that because MitD could use his Alter Shape ability to change sizes, he must be using it to do so constantly, even though he has no reason to, would mean disobeying Xykon's order to stay in the shadows, and likely he is unaware he can. With a pinch of "why haven't we seen more eyes" (aka "because he is trying to fit in"). Which, like I said, these are known, have been in the first post for ages and been addressed in your essay for about as long. Brian has brought nothing new to the table, and at this point he clearly has nothing new to offer other than "I have decided that regardless of what the fluff and powerset say, the proteans should act like I think and not how they do work, and therefore if MitD is a protean, Rich is doing it wrong".

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

I believe they are referring to this post:


So, essentially, the old assertion that because MitD could use his Alter Shape ability to change sizes, he must be using it to do so constantly, even though he has no reason to, would mean disobeying Xykon's order to stay in the shadows, and likely he is unaware he can. With a pinch of "why haven't we seen more eyes" (aka "because he is trying to fit in"). Which, like I said, these are known, have been in the first post for ages and been addressed in your essay for about as long. Brian has brought nothing new to the table, and at this point he clearly has nothing new to offer other than "I have decided that regardless of what the fluff and powerset say, the proteans should act like I think and not how they do work, and therefore if MitD is a protean, Rich is doing it wrong".

Grey Wolf

I am only responding to criticisms of my opinion, most of which have never even addressed my actual arguments.

Your summation of my point is also curious. Why distort my actual arguments with your sarcasm? If you disagree with my points, then do so. Having a wrong opinion does not make one bad.

I got into this thread after a half-dozen posts which repeated the same points about how great a fit the protean was. Those posts were never challenged based on their bringing nothing new to the table. I disagreed, and suddenly we have three pages devoted to proving me wrong. Very curious.

Finally, I never said the author is doing it wrong. In fact, in my original post I said if he wanted MitD to be a protean, he could do so and have it make sense. My argument was never based on asserting that I know better than the author how to write his story. This is just gratuitous denigration of me, and has nothing to do with what I posted.

In fact, I've tried to bow out of the discussion, only to have another page of posts, mostly hostile, belittling, or denigrating to me personally, which either asserted things I never said as my opinion, asserted that I should respond to points I made pages ago, or simply gratuitously insulted me for being wrong. Is this an honest debate?

My single, original post in this thread would have been my only post in this thread if the response had been, "Yes, we know, but have disregarded those points in previous discussions." Instead, it became a quest to prove me wrong which ends with my original points still standing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you disagree with my points, then do so.

I do, and I have. 4 times now. You are the one that is avoiding actually acknowledging that your points have been addressed by multiple posters multiple times each, and yet you continue to claim, baselessly, that you haven't been answered. But you have. Over and over. So yes, I'm tired of explicitly answering your two points and thus will just continue to come up with increasingly waspish ways of pointing out that you have in fact said nothing new to this thread except that in your opinion the PF protean is better. Which I told you at the start: good for you. Tell Crusher. But "Brian333's opinion" is not in fact evidence or even an argument.


Finally, I never said the author is doing it wrong.
No, but you have implied it. Every time you have asserted something about how proteans work that MitD* is not doing - such as "crazy things like [...] changing sizes from Diminutive to Gargantuan" - you are implicitly saying that Rich is not following the D&D rules when it comes to MitD*. Which is a problem when you are clearly misreading how proteans work. There is nothing wrong about a protean not changing sizes. There is in fact nothing wrong even with a protean never having more than two eyes. There are a few consideration in that regard specifically when he is asleep, but that one criticism hasn't been brought up by you.


My single, original post in this thread would have been my only post in this thread if the response had been, "Yes, we know, but have disregarded those points in previous discussions." Instead, it became a quest to prove me wrong which ends with my original points still standing.

Your "single, original post in this thread" is this:

I'm having trouble swallowing the Protean Pill.
MitD is something Xykon believes he can command. By their nature, Suggestion, Dominate, Geas, and similar spells which compel a creature to do something will ultimately fail.
Proteans are physical embodiements of Chaos. Even the most successful domination will be perverted and twisted to make it virtually useless.

Besides, as a matter of characterization, MitD has been a stable character. Certainly growth has occurred, but the character traits established in DCF still resonate in the character. I doubt a Protean could hold it together anywhere near that long.

This has been addressed multiple time:
1) D&D proteans are not "physical embodiements[sic] of Chaos". Which I believe InvisibleBison has told you no fewer than three times. Possibly Ruck as well.
2) "MitD has been a stable character". This is your opinion, and the bits that aren't are wrong. He is the one that is actually switching allegiances. He is in fact changing. Could you assert he should be changing "more"? Sure, but that's where your opinion kicks in. There is nothing to debate, because regardless of how much he changes, you can always assert that he should change "more". I think he is changing just about enough for a lonely creature desperately trying to fit in and have friends. Which, again, opinion.
3) "I doubt a Protean could hold it together anywhere near that long.". This is, again, partially your opinion, and a mixture of known issue, outright wrong reading of the powerset (possibly because you were looking at the wrong powerset, which you then spent many posts trying to defend as "identical" even though it is not) and just wrong.

Grey Wolf

*If MitD is in fact a protean

[Tubercular Ox]

Considering it's standing in for "in this specific online interview, where Rich deliberately chose to answer questions (and not to free-associate about whatever emotions those questions made him feel), the fact that his answer to one specific question includes the word 'no' more than once shows that he is highly offended by the question," I'd call it "doesn't say anything about Rich's emotional or mental state but does say something about that of the person arguing for that interpretation," myself.

I agree it would be difficult to conclusively say Rich has a particular mood or personality from one quote divorced of context. I have a feeling I get from reading it, but I could be wrong.

If you said just this quote was Rich answering a question without any emotional content, normally you would need positive evidence because answering questions without emotion is not the default for how people work. However, I would give you the benefit of the doubt and let you have the point because there really isn’t a lot of positive evidence you would need to say this about one quote.

But what I heard you say is that you think the assumption that quotes lack emotional content is privileged because it doesn’t add anything to the informational content, and not adding things is simplest. This makes me think that you treat all quotes from Rich as if they lack emotional content. Correct me if I’m wrong.

If I’m right, we’re in dangerous territory, because every time you say a quote lacks emotional content you are making it more and more extraordinary that Rich has an iron will for answering questions and never reveals emotional content.

Find me the quotes where he loses his cool, or lets something slip, or is happy to talk about something and goes into a bit too much detail. Those would make that version of Rich seem more human.

Or don’t. I’m not here to make work for you. But this is part of what I meant when I said, “How you treat Rich is shocking.”

[Keltest]

I have a question. Why does it matter what his emotional state is? I also read it as being answered with exaggerated patience, but its a pretty straightforward answer. If he changed it, things would have to be different, obviously, because changing it would make them different. I have fought and died on some pretty arbitrary hills in this thread, but this seems to be exceptionally pointless even by those standards.