Arcane hieropant, feedback about a binder dip

[ciopo]

Hello fellow playgrounders, I'd like to touch base about this plan of mine for when I next level,

The tl:dr of it : I'm thinking of dipping 1 level of binder with improved binding feat to get access to the goodies that the vestige "The green lady" offers, thoughts on the matter? I'm a shapeshift druid 4/ shair1 /planar shepherd 2(advancing shair)/arcane hierophant 9, and the intent is having that sweet turn undead to fuel strenght devotion specifically, but the SLA and bonus charisma are nice too.

The longpost, some campaign ruling of relevance: we get 1 feat at every odd level, and use pathfinder skill ranks and cmd/cmb, but otherwise the game is "moetly 3.5"

Campaignwise, my character is the mortal agent of the Norns, and I've been empowered by them for an "overarching sidequest" of finding one of them that's gone missing in the material plane he lives in, where "stuff is happening", I say side quest because the campaign itself is war of the burning sky.
My current levels are (desert half orc) shapeshift druid 4 / sha'ir 1 refluffed as "Fate's needle" and themed around Norns appropriate concept / planar shepherd 2, also refluffed for Norns things, advancing sha'ir with favourite plane a not-actually-defined Yggdrasil with a gentlemen agreement that I will NOT take more levels in planar shepherd / arcane hierophant 9, my feats so far are greensinger initiate refluffed to be Norns themed, wild cohort to "regain" the animal companion that's now the familiar companion (a spirit bear (chassis dire polar bear with mage slayer and chakra binded sphinx claws and girallon arms for feats, plus snatch related feats, she too has strenght devotion)), enspell familiar, natural bond, practiced spellcaster druid, practiced spellcaster shair, minor shapeshift, strenght devotion. Consider wild cohort+natural bond feat taxes to have familiar companion properly advance "as the animal companion of druid of my character level" that I wouldn't otherwise have due to the shapeshift variant.

The rest of the party is a human warlock/cleric/eldritch disciple/hellfire (fey fluffed, going for dmm:persist and who has just unlocked 4th levle spells) , a human fighter/dervish and a no-LA buyoff satyr bard (possibly related to the warlock, I dom't know yet, arcadia is weird)

Anyway, yesterday we leveled! And going from 15th to 16th my beloved bear evolved from a dire bear to a dire polar bear! For this occasion I touched base with my GM to make sure she was okay in keeping the ruling about strength devotion "better die damage" being always on, since it could be a bit problematic "now" when combined with improved natural attacks, making Mishka claws count as gargauntan, which strength devotion doesn't have a table for.

I was not surprised at all that she reversed her decision on it and now everything strength devotion gives is only during the 1 minute duration. I agree with her on it so no shed tears here, just trying to give as complete a picture I can :)

So... I got thinking I could get the green lady vestige for "5 round cooldown" turn undeads to fuel my own strength devotion, asfor refueling Mishka I was thinking shenanigans with bone talisman, either by imbue familiar or channel animal, but mostly my own devotion?

Keeping in mind I'm very deliberately shedding caster levels to not have 9th and possibly not 8ths either, so delaying those further is "a nonissue", my plans before now for after finishing arcane hierophant was very up in the air "maybe totemist,bwuh it's months away anyway yololo"

I feel a refluffed green lady (no cookies for guessing it'd be Norns related) is appealing, and other than the turn undead the bonus CHA and the at will SLA are both strong options.

I admit I know little of binders other than a cursory read over srd tools, and I haven't pitched it to the gm yet

Thoughts? And thanks!

[Rebel7284]

If you're abusing Bone Talismans for your animal companion anyway, might as well save yourself a level and do it for yourself too, no?

Note that as binder 1 I believe you can't suppress the sign of the green lady, which may affect roleplaying choices.

If you just want better natural weapons, Warshaper's Morphic Weapons are better, although potentially broken and you could also just directly go into totemist or even warblade -> tiger claw maneuvers

[Darg]

I'd be more worried about the influence of a vestige myself. When you make a poor pact you are forced to roleplay/act as the vestige influence dictates or take a -1 penalty to attacks, saves, and checks. As the book isn't clear on the matter, it's up to the DM whether this happens for each instance or it's a one off until the vestige leaves. I rule that it happens each time because otherwise there isn't really a cost in continuing to defy the vestige.

[ciopo]

fair thoughts, thanks for the feedback.

On sign and the suppressing thereof : to me it reads "you look cooler", and it doesn't really seems to be a downside? it'd be lost in the visual effects of my suite of hours/duration buffs anyway.

A bad pact is the actual drawback there, I agree with that.

As for using bone talisman myself: I've thought of it, yeah, but "spare" 2nd level druid slots that I have will be 3 at most.

Warshaper, totemist, nature's warrior were the original shortlist for those last bunch of levels, yeah.

I've been considering sacred exorcist, but it's thematically "stinky", because campaignwise we are opposing an institution of inquisitors

[Rebel7284]

If Bone Talisman allows you to use a Nightstick, you probably have enough turn attempts right there for every encounter. Lesser Rod of Extend on Bone Talisman a plus.


Also, silly question but if you are okay with losing BAB and caster progression for Turn Undead + Perks, I will note that a Cloistered Cleric dip is also an option.
Cons: You only get a limited number of turn undead so you can't keep devotion feats running all day, but may be enough.
Pros: Knowledge Devotion + 2 more Domains is nifty as domains can give you wide-ranging benefits from Natural Attacks (Hunger), helpful feats (Planning, Undeath, Rune), can be traded for MORE devotion feats (Animal, Law, Trickery), and sometimes provide unique effects (Luck, Pride)

[ciopo]

there was one nightstick coming along the markets last time we were in town and the warlock snagged it already, I'll ask about it, but it's up a level of "contrivance" and I'm trying to stay relatively simple ( albeit I understand this is very subjective, it is valid feedback!, I hadn't thought of it)

I have been thinking of cleric, tho cloistered would not fit with how I've played the character so far, and the domain I would have to pick from are those that are "of the Norns" and already established per the shair refluff : fate, luck, knowledge, travel, earth, water, plant. Definetively an option, only nitpick I have is adding a third prepared caster this late is "more bookkeeping", even if it's relatively simple what with only 1st level slots.

Mmmmm I could see if I could get incarnum domain approved (refluffed spirit or the like, to link back to how we've renamed the shape soulmeld/open chakra feats), getting myself access to the open least/lesser chakra spells, thus freeing up some retraining feats on the spirit bear, and also letting missus warlock bind the strongheart vest, to then dovetail it into two level of totemist, it's appealing

[Paragon]

Sorry to be the party pooper here but The Green Lady is actually a homebrew vestige made to ressemble Tenebrous. Let's say the source you found it on isn't 100% accurate on some matters and this is one of them (I should know, I made the same mistake until Troaccid pointed this out to me)

Second, there is a debate over whether or not you're actually granted turn attempts.
The wording "You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric your effective binder level" from The Green Lady probably means you can turn undead as if you were a cleric", doesn't say "you get the turns attempts of a cleric of your level". The once every 5 rounds supports this reading.
A cleric's turn undead ability is built as follows :
"A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures." Then proceeds on describing what is turning and how it works
And then has a special clause telling you how many attempts you get : "A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier"

A reading of "you can turn undead once every 5 rounds as if you were a cleric" seems closer to RAW than "you get the Turn Undead ability of a cleric". And yes that kills Sacred Exorcist/DMM builds.

If your DM is ok with granting a homebrew Vestige and has a permissive reading of the ability, go for it !

[ciopo]

Oh, I had a suspicion in that regard since it seemed strange to me that she wasn't mentioned in the binder handbook, I guess I should have started with the actual tome of magic pdf :)

Well that makes the choice easier, either I stick to the original plan of (something totemist/warshaper/nature's warrior), or I do dip either cleric or sacred exorcist if I "really" must get some turning pool.

Am I having a fever dreaming or there was a *something* divine spellcasting that would let you grant spells and possibly turning attempts to allies? I vaguely recall something like that in the unupdated contemplative maybe? the name escapes me, divine something something?

oh boy I'm going down too many rabbit holes now

thanks everybody for the feedback, r.i.p. green lady and tenebrous too big an investment

[Curbludgeon]

Green Lady is great in a Greyhawk-themed Anima Priest build, but for an Arcane Heirophant I'd instead consider things like Master of Radiance or Sacred Exorcist.

[Rebel7284]

After some googling I found the following post:



Also, Googling around, I found the Green Lady by James Jacobs. Since he's one of the Paizo top guys, I'd figure it's more reliable than the ones posted on the WotC boards (and there's several, but I haven't had time to sift through them to see which are good and which aren't - there might even be some on the EN World boards as well).

However, on the face of it, it looks pretty powerful to me. He wrote it up for his cleric/binder, so the turn undead ability and such make sense for that PC, but in general, I'd say that's quite the ability, especially at your effective binder level. The ability to use wands and staves as a wizard at first also sounded pretty powerful for a 2nd level vestige, but most PCs will never see a staff for quite a few levels still, and being able to use wands probably isn't as powerful as it first struck me.

So, personally, I'd make the turn undead as 1/2 EBL or EBL-3 (like paladin), but that's just me.


So yeah, homebrew, but apparently common enough homebrew that it sounded familiar to me from a fairly reliable source.

As far as the ability to share turn attempts, Hierophant can do it in core (can share druid abilities too!) Doesn't really share spells though.

Just a thought about Sacred Exorcist, you have updated the flavor of many of your classes, you can do it with SE too!

[ciopo]

yeah I'm leaning toward sacred exorcist 1 / totemist 2 for levels 18-20th currently, tho I should note the refluffing of shair and planar shepherd were mostly "cosmetic", sacred exorcist RP prerequirements is a different beast, but I will definetively ask my GM about it