Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Monk and Brawler

[pabelfly]

I'm interested in starting work on a tier list for Pathfinder, in the same way that we have a tier list for 3.5 (link) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!). This link is a collection of discussions about the power and versatility of all the base classes of 3.5 DnD, and it’s quite a useful resource. I think Pathfinder could do with a similar resource as a point of information and discussion.

There has been an informal attempt to do a tier list for Pathfinder, which I've also used as part of the reference to this thread: (link) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?649283-%85-And-What-Is-the-*Deal*-with-Pathfinder-Tiers). But this lacks discussion on the classes and a shared consensus on how scoring works, both of which are as important as the tier number itself.

The current, work-in-progress thread for Pathfinder Tiers version of this thread is here (link) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650140-Why-Each-Class-is-in-its-Tier-Pathfinder-Edition-(Work-in-Progress)). This thread has links to previous tiering threads and short summaries of thread discussions for those who missed them when they were posted. Contributions and votes for older threads are still welcome.

This thread, we’ll be taking on three attempts at building a class based around mundane, unarmed combat: the Monk (Chained), the Monk (Unchained) and Brawler.

For reference, in the informal thread:
Monk (Chained) is tiered somewhere between 4.5 and 5.25
Monk (Unchained) is tiered at somewhere between 4 and 4.2
Brawler is roughly tiered at 4 and 4.25.

So, the questions are: what should each of these be tiered at? And are there any notable archetypes for these classes that deserve separate tiering? I guess a discussion thread is the way to find out.



Update: Current Vote Totals

Monk
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Maat Mons – 5

Average – 4.81



Monk (Zen Archer)
Thunder999 – 4
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Maat Mons – 5

Average – 4.69



Monk (Sohei)
Thunder 999 – 4
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Maat Mons – 5

Average – 4.69



Unchained Monk
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Darvin, Drelula – 4
Maat Mons - 4.2

Average – 4.02



Brawler
Gnaeus – 3.7
AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Rynjin, Darvin, Maat Mons, Drelula – 4.0
Kurald Galain – 4.5

Average – 4.03



Brawler (Exemplar Archetype)
Rynjin - 3.5
Gnaeus – 3.7
Maat Mons - 3.8
AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Darvin, Drelula – 4.0
Kurald Galain - 4.5

Average – 3.94




What are the tiers?

The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system. A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a vanilla Magus. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

Tier four: Here we're in Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian territory. Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of chained Monk, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.

[Kurald Galain]

All right, here are my thoughts.

PF's monk hasn't substantially changed from its much-maligned 3E incarnation. It gets a smattering of bonuses, most notably an extra attack at level 6 and some late-game feats; but overall it remains a fast-moving class that is most effective when standing still; and several of its features just compensate for fists being weaker than swords; and it largely lacks out-of-combat abilities. Oh, and it's pretty MAD. Where e.g. fighter and barbarian have markedly improved since 3E, the monk really hasn't. It basically does one thing, i.e. melee damage, and not all that well; which is the definition of Tier 5. That said, the monk has a fair amount of archetypes with unique abilities, making it a decent one- or two-level dip for other classes.
A notable archetype is the Qinggong Monk, that can change lacklustre monk powers (e.g. slow fall) for an SLA from a fairly lengthy list. Unfortunately, this looks great on paper but doesn't do all that much in practice (indeed, in almost a decade of gameplay I have never noticed this in practice), as the list has no standout powers that would actually raise the monk's tier. Forum threads that try to make this powerful boil down to finding a loophole that gives infinite ki points; but Pathfinder explicitly disallows this under the "Bag of Rats" rule, and let's face it, GMs are not letting you get away with infinite loops. So that's still tier 5.
Notably bad archetypes include Menhir Guardian, Water Dancer, and Softstrike Monk. I don't think it's quite tier-6 material, though.

So how is the Unchained Monk any different? It's simpler to use and has somewhat bigger numbers; and gets SLAs similar to the Qinggong. However, unlike the Qinggong's, these SLAs are actually good, such as walking on water, walking through walls, swift-action confusion, and getting Abundant Step four levels earlier. Aside from that, this monk can get pounce at level 5; yes, an actual at-will move-and-full-attack, and that by itself raises its damage level from "meh" to "competitive". All in all this is a solid Tier 4.

And the Brawler is not the most exciting of classes, but it's competent at melee damage, and its signature feature of "flex feats" gives it some good versatility in play that most martials lack. That said, it doesn't really do a lot besides brawling, and has little to contribute outside of combat. I'd call this another Tier 4, but rate it below the Fighter (because of advanced weapon training) or the u-monk (because of flying kick). Overall that makes it Tier 4.5 (or "low tier 4").

Finally, I should point out that both kinds of monk and the brawler are usually better when they wield a weapon, meaning they're not really true "unarmed" classes.

[Gnaeus]

Monk Tier 5 Melee combatant who isn't particularly good at melee, without a lot else to offer.
Unchained monk 4. Melee combatant who is solid at melee.
Brawler 3.7. There are some situational fighter feats that the brawler can pull out on the rare instances where they are useful. like blind fighting only when you need it, or bull rush only in the rare instances you need to push people off a bridge. Or just longbow proficiency and archery feats. Still, this much vaunted "flexibility" is less than generally enjoyed by T3 fighter types.

[AvatarVecna]

Monk: T5
Primarily a melee combatant, who cannot use armor or weapons, and is essentially locked into "TWF as if you were full BAB". Problem is, TWF sucks. Additionally, because low-level BAB is so close to each other, it only becomes an inarguable upgrade over the base monk full attack around lvl 9, but that's pretty far into the game, and also still not great, and also doesn't stack with actual TWF (the way it did in 3.5). Your base weapon damage starts out very poor, and being MAD means you can expect your Str to be lower than usual as well, so your damage overall will be pretty trash. In the early levels, all your attack choices are garbage for base damage. By the mid levels (lvl 7+), your fists are gonna start pulling ahead on base damage...and that's about when you're gonna find out that the game is gonna either make you invest money in a weapon with base d6 damage, or make you pay double to enchant your fists. Or hey, you could only pay +50% instead of +100%...as long as you're willing to write of Flurry Of Blows.

You're too MAD to have really good Int, and your skills aren't great, so you're probably gonna barely be scraping by with enough to move around the battlefield unhindered (you know...your main focus as a skirmisher). You have a handful of weird pseudomagical abilities, which are competing for a resource that can be used to improve your meager melee capabilities. There's an archetype that lets you pick from a big list of magic stuff, but none of them are groundbreaking, they still compete for ki, and being an archetype makes it incompatible with some other archetypes.

Unchained Monk: T4
UM gets d10 HD. UM gets full BAB. UM gets Style Strikes (which can be used for, among other things, pounce). UM gets to pick their magic nonsense by default. Flurry Of Blows is now just extra attacks without any penalty, and if you wanted you could combine it with TWF. Turns out reaching T4 is pretty simple: be good at something. Who knew? Full BAB, extra attacks, and pounce turned monk from poor performance to average! They gave up a good Will save, because god forbid monk just get some nice things, but even so!

Brawler: T4
AFAICT Brawler is close to Unchained Monk, but has given up pounce and magic stuff for more bonus feats and the ability to wield normal weapons at monk unarmed damage values? That's less versatile, but still a pretty solid meleer, especially if I'm wrong and they have some way of getting pounce.

[AvatarVecna]

Monk/Black Asp

You give up Stunning Fist (basically the only thing monk has going for it) for a +5% chance to not accidentally poison yourself when using poison, and the ability to swiftly apply injury poison to your unarmed strike zones of your body. I mean, you could also apply contact poison to your bare skin...you're not immune to poison until lvl 11 though, so why would you do that? Anyway, this sucks, because while poison tends to deliver ability damage (which is usually better than what Stunning Fist is doing for you), and can do so starting from lvl 1 with all the worst poisons...poisons are expensive, and also a common immunity (unlike the stuff Stunning Fist is generally doing), and also their DC doesn't scale with level or stats so you'll always need to be buying something really good for your level. The main issue is the expense: monks are already going to be spending a lot of their money just trying to break even on their choice to not be a fighter. Spending hundreds or even thousands of gp to get a slightly better debuff than Stunning Fist on just a few attacks...it's not great. You also gain the option to give up certain ki abilities in exchange for different ki abilities. One of these is "free poison"...and becomes available at lvl 12. One of these is "all day mind blank"...available at lvl 16. The others are pretty mediocre.

I think trading Stunning Fist for poison use is taking away the one good think base monk had going for it, and replacing it with a money sink for very limited and circumstantial benefit. I feel like a campaign with a Black Asp Monk would see them lagging behind the party unless a good deal of time and money was spent getting them back to merely "mediocre". I think this can be argued as T6 - probably high T6, but still. Monk only had "melee debuffing" going for it, and Black Asp makes them worse at it.

Monk/Monk Vows

Monk can choose to give up Still Mind in exchange for some extra ki and a roleplaying limitation (usually). For the most part these are...inoffensive. Still Mind isn't great, and neither is extra ki (especially if you're not Qinggong, which TBF this seems to be compatible with). The amount of ki you're gaining varies by how restrictive the vow is, so some are a better mechanical exchange than others, but for the most part there's nothing here that should affect tier at all...with one exception.


Restriction: The monk taking a vow of poverty must never own more than six possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, and any one other item. Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value (often an heirloom of great personal significance to the monk). The monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures.

Benefit: A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every monk level he possesses.

I really don't know what to tell you. The restrictions are less stupid than they were in 3.5 at least? You're allowed one item of "some value" (which is expected to be of personal importance to the character, to justify breaking their vow over it). You're allowed to use consumables that other people give to you, but you can't just hold onto them. There's no argument to be had about doorknobs or looking at art or walking on roads, the vow is only concerned with your personal property, what you carry/borrow, and the use of consumable magic items. It doesn't even require you to gain a share of treasure just to give to charity; your friends get extra treasure, if you take this vow!

...but really ask yourself: how many ki points would this have to give you for it to be worth giving up basically all magic items? This vow gives more than any other vow...but it takes more as well. Far more. Ludicrously more. Sure, your team is a bit better off for having you around, but...you aren't better off for taking this vow. You're worse. Waaaaaay worse.

T6.

[Thunder999]

Base Unarchetyped Monk is still as tier 5 as ever for all the reasons people have already mentioned.
However I do think there's archetypes worth looking at rating seperately.

The two that come to mind are Sohei and Zen Archer.

Zen Archer gets Flurry with Bows, basically all the archery feats as bonus feats, Wisdom to bow attack rolls, Bow AoOs (though only within his unarmed reach), and the ability to ignore total cover and total concealment. Can't use Rapid Shot or Many Shot with Flurry though
That's not much versatility, but it makes for a very effective archer, which is a solid Tier 4, there's very little a good archer can't kill in pathfinder.
Sohei gets an initiative boost and the ability to always act in surprise rounds (identical to a Divination wizard), some mostly useless mount related stuff (since it's missing the actual mount), Fighter weapon training for bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons with the Advanced weapon training options that opens up, and whichever groups it picks can be flurried.
I put it in tier 4 for the same reason as Zen Archer or Fighter, it's good at what it does, but that's basically just killing stuff without dieing first.

Unchained monk I agree with tier 4, it's a solid pouncing martial with some minor tricks.

Brawler is probably tier 4. It's basically a monk who swaps some of the flashy-but-mostly pointless stuff for more flexible bonus feats.

[pabelfly]

Current Vote Totals

Monk
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999 – 5

Average - 5



Monk (Zen Archer)
Thunder999 – 4
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna – 5

Average – 4.75



Monk (Sohei)
Thunder 999 – 4
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna – 5

Average – 4.75



Unchained Monk
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999 – 4


Brawler
Gnaeus – 3.7
AvatarVecna, Thunder999 – 4.0
Kurald Galain – 4.5

Average – 4.05

[Rynjin]

As the person who has almost certainly played the most Monk in this thread (and possibly on this forum), I present my dissenting opinion: Chained Monk is not T5. It's (very) low T4. High praise, I know.

Playing a Core Monk is not as miserable as playing, say, a Rogue as long as you know what you're doing. Qinggong Monk may as well be presented as the baseline, because it doesn't actually replace anything of value on its own. It's essentially just the prototype for the Unchained Monk's Ki Powers. Every Monk, including Monks with other archetypes, can ALWAYS stack Qinggong.

While the Qinggong powers are not earth-shattering, they do shore up a lot of the Monk's traditional weaknesses, particularly in the realm of defense. Being able to provide your own Barkskin makes you more self-sufficient and less gear-reliant, shoring up the Monk's traditionally low AC.

Combined with easy access to powerful Style Feat chains like Dragon, Snake, Panther, and Outslug the Monk ends up as a combatant roughly on par with a mid-op Fighter and can challenge most of the bestiary on their own, with the slightly lower damage output being more than made up for with spectacular saving throws, similar to the Barbarian. You also get decent class skills and a decent baseline 4+Int that edges you in front of the Fighter on that front as well.

These factors combined with a plethora of archetypes that allow you to tailor the Monk to pretty much any playstyle just barely edges it into T4 in my book, again with the caveat that it requires medium-level optimization to get there.

Unchained Monk, by contrast, is high T4 in my opinion with a more robust baseline level of power and a better ability to deliver on some of the thematic promises the Monk class flavor makes while also being able to benefit from much (though surprisingly not all) of the optimization tricks Monk can use to make itself stronger.

Brawler is like, the T4-est T4 in the game for sure. It's slightly worse at fighting than a Fighter, similar to a Monk, but has extra flexibility to make up for it, and the ability to get enormous, consistent Combat maneuver bonuses in any Maneuver they choose.

I would bump the Exemplar (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/exemplar/) to a high T4 rating, as it trades some relatively weak class features for some notably powerful ones like Inspire Courage.

[Darvin]

Well Rynjin basically already covered everything I had to add about the Chained Monk, except probably with a bit more experience backing it up since I've pretty much only used Unchained ever since it was released. It has a very low optimization floor but its optimization ceiling is around the other T4 classes given all the support it has going for it. The problem is that you need a pretty hefty amount of optimization to get there. Ordinarily I'd say this still comes in at tier 5, but since Unchained Monk exists as an "easy mode" for anyone who doesn't want to put in the optimization work I can give the Chained Monk a little more slack than I would other classes. I could probably waffle on this one depending on my mood. Normally I've just been sticking to whole-number tiers, but I think for Chained Monk I'll make an exception and go for 4.5 since I really am on the fence here.

I've got no interesting insights to add with regards to Unchained Monk or Brawler, they are clearly tier 4 as they have good combat presence and a decent number of tricks they can pick up but not enough to put them into tier 3.

So tier 4 for Unchained Monk and Brawler, and tier 4.5 for Chained Monk

[Maat Mons]

I'm of the opinion that Brawler is tier 4 and Chained Monk is Tier 5. I might come back later and give those more nuanced decimal ratings. Or I might not. I'll have to read over Unchained Monk before I feel comfortable giving it a rating.

[Drelua]

I've played quite a few monks, they're one of my favourite classes because I like martial arts and my first D&D character was a, so I'll just talk a bit about what they did, and how well they did it. I haven't played Unchained Monk or Brawler, so I won't comment too much on that. About this, though:


So how is the Unchained Monk any different? It's simpler to use and has somewhat bigger numbers; and gets SLAs similar to the Qinggong. However, unlike the Qinggong's, these SLAs are actually good, such as walking on water, walking through walls, swift-action confusion, and getting Abundant Step four levels earlier. Aside from that, this monk can get pounce at level 5; yes, an actual at-will move-and-full-attack, and that by itself raises its damage level from "meh" to "competitive". All in all this is a solid Tier 4.

Walking on water? Spider step, though you have to wait until level 8. The distance is limited to half of your slow fall distance, so unfortunately to take it you have to keep slowfall, but it lets you walk on just about anything. Tree branches that shouldn't support you, walls, water. The rest you listed, they don't get of course. I don't think. Stunning fist gets some nice options though, but by the time they can them casters have beat them to it ages ago.

At level 4, scorching ray's handy as a ranged option. They can get gaseous form from 6, that can have a lot of uses. Might even get you through walls, depending on the wall. At level 10, ki leech is great if you're not a hungry ghost monk, spit venom is nice for a touch attack to blind for a round, and do CON damage if they fail a save. Ethereal fists could be handy if you fight a lot of ghosts. And it comes in a bit late at 14, but blood crow strike is a ranged full attack option. Energy resistance could be a problem though. So there is some nice options there, though they're limited to combat so nothing that would get them anywhere near to tier 3, not that anyone's saying they are of course.

I played a high level dex-based hungry ghost monk with snake style, from about level 12 to 16, and honestly, that character was very tier 5. His AC was stupidly high and his saves were great, so he was almost unkillable with the healing from hungry ghost. He was, however, kinda harmless so enemies started ignoring him pretty quick. Compared to the magus at least, he couldn't do damage at all. He was better off spitting in someone's eyes so the magus could have an even easier time frying them. Had to fight a clone of him once, close to 30 attacks were happening in a round between the 2 of them, but they only hit each other on a 20.

My PFS Sohei monk was a lot more effective, I messed up the point buy but even with too much DEX and not enough STR he was really deadly once he got to level 6 and started flurrying with a keen nodachi, because it's a polearm. That is, assuming he got a full attack. Even a single attack was decent though, with weapon training, power attack, and furious focus. That one felt more like a tier 4, but that was also PFS which isn't super tough most of the time. The other one was a very deadly home game with a GM that had been playing since the 70s, so he didn't pull any punches. Let us do a tonne of crafting though.

I'm not sure where I'd put the monk, it's definitely very easy to make a useless character, but it can also be fairly effective, so I'll agree with tier 4.5. That is, assuming we're not tiering archetypes individually. I don't think unchained monks are necessarily much stronger, but they're much higher floor makes them a whole lot easier to play, so yeah, that's a tier 4. I've never played a Brawler, but I played a few sessions with a shield champion, the ranged option was very useful. They don't have a lot of archetypes, but a few of them seem quite good. I'll also vote tier 4 for them. It's just too bad they don't get weapon training, and I don't think they're allowed to dip fighter to get it.

Sorry for the long post, I have strong feelings about Monks. I want them to be good so bad, I'm glad Pathfinder at least gives them a few ways to be competent.

[Kurald Galain]

Interesting points. I'm not sure these archetypes are worth listing separately, but I'll take a look.


So how is the Unchained Monk any different? It's simpler to use and has somewhat bigger numbers; and gets SLAs similar to the Qinggong. However, unlike the Qinggong's, these SLAs are actually good, such as walking on water, walking through walls, swift-action confusion, and getting Abundant Step four levels earlier. Aside from that, this monk can get pounce at level 5;

The rest you listed, they don't get of course. I don't think.
Sure they do. Empty Body lets you walk through walls, Breaking Down Koan confuses as a swift action, and Abundant Step is available at level 8 whereas chained monks get it at level 12. Finally, the Flying Kick style strike is the equivalent of pounce.

[Rynjin]

Interesting points. I'm not sure these archetypes are worth listing separately, but I'll take a look.


Sure they do. Empty Body lets you walk through walls, Breaking Down Koan confuses as a swift action, and Abundant Step is available at level 8 whereas chained monks get it at level 12. Finally, the Flying Kick style strike is the equivalent of pounce.

I think he was trying to agree that those are things the base Monk doesn't get.

[pabelfly]

As the person who has almost certainly played the most Monk in this thread (and possibly on this forum), I present my dissenting opinion: Chained Monk is not T5. It's (very) low T4. High praise, I know.

Okay, I'll put this down as 4.5 unless you want me to change it.


Unchained Monk, by contrast, is high T4 in my opinion with a more robust baseline level of power and a better ability to deliver on some of the thematic promises the Monk class flavor makes while also being able to benefit from much (though surprisingly not all) of the optimization tricks Monk can use to make itself stronger.

And I'll put this down as 3.5 unless you want me to change it.

I
would bump the Exemplar (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-brawler-archetypes/exemplar/) to a high T4 rating, as it trades some relatively weak class features for some notably powerful ones like Inspire Courage.

So, I'll put this as a 3.5 unless you want me to change it as well.


My PFS Sohei monk was a lot more effective, I messed up the point buy but even with too much DEX and not enough STR he was really deadly once he got to level 6 and started flurrying with a keen nodachi, because it's a polearm. That is, assuming he got a full attack. Even a single attack was decent though, with weapon training, power attack, and furious focus. That one felt more like a tier 4, but that was also PFS which isn't super tough most of the time. The other one was a very deadly home game with a GM that had been playing since the 70s, so he didn't pull any punches. Let us do a tonne of crafting though.

We're also doing tiering for archetypes that people think are much better than default, and we've already had one person tier Sohei Monk separate to regular Monk. If you think it deserves separate tiering you're welcome to vote for it.

Current Vote Totals

Monk
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Maat Mons – 5

Average – 4.81



Monk (Zen Archer)
Thunder999 – 4
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Maat Mons – 5

Average – 4.69



Monk (Sohei)
Thunder 999 – 4
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Maat Mons – 5

Average – 4.69



Unchained Monk
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Darvin, Drelula – 4
Maat Mons - 4.2

Average – 4.02



Brawler
Gnaeus – 3.7
AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Rynjin, Darvin, Maat Mons, Drelula – 4.0
Kurald Galain – 4.5

Average – 4.03



Brawler (Exemplar Archetype)
Rynjin - 3.5
Gnaeus – 3.7
Maat Mons - 3.8
AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Darvin, Drelula – 4.0
Kurald Galain - 4.5

Average – 3.94

[Rynjin]

Those sound right to me yeah.

[Thunder999]

Anyone got any archetypes or the like worth talking about or is this thread basically done?

[Drelua]

Anyone got any archetypes or the like worth talking about or is this thread basically done?

I kinda feel like archetypes aren't just good or bad on their own, it depends on a lot of other things. Hungry ghost is a good archetype, snake style's a good combat style, but my character with both of those was weak because I didn't put enough build resources into offense. Monk already favours defense, especially dex-based, so when I just put an agile amulet of mighty fists and a couple other things into offense, his damage wasn't great and his attack bonus was worse. He would have been effective in a single player game, eventually, but with a magus and a sorcerer in the group he was too slow to accomplish much.

My sohei monk was a lot more effective because I noticed nodachis are in the pole arm weapon group, which surprises a lot of people, so a two-handed flurry with a 15-20 crit range was very deadly. But if I had picked a different weapon group, like bows, I'd be a lot weaker. So I'm not sure you can judge archetypes, because even the good ones tend to have some trap options, or have to be built certain ways to work well. Well, except Zen Archer. Those are super easy to play effectively, and very deadly. I've heard a few people in PFS say they're overpowered.

[AvatarVecna]

Anyone got any archetypes or the like worth talking about or is this thread basically done?

I've already stated my opinions on a couple archetypes I think are trash enough to downgrade monk further. Outside of that, I didn't see anything so amazing it should bump something up significantly.

[Kurald Galain]

Anyone got any archetypes or the like worth talking about or is this thread basically done?

I don't think any archtypes here are a clear tier increase.

[pabelfly]

Okay, wrote up some class summaries based on the discussions here. Would appreciate feedback as always.



Monk (Chained)

Chained Monk is a class whose features don’t synergize well and fails to contribute to the party without a fairly high level of optimization. There are a lot of trap options so it’s easy to make a character even weaker than a regular Chained Monk.

Monks can move fast, but they need to stand still to use of Flurry of Blows. Their unarmed attack damage is actually the equivalent of a regular weapon, and alternate monk weapons are weaker than regular weapons. Bonuses to AC when unarmored do not make up for not wearing armor, and now they have more stats to balance compared to other martial characters. Out of combat, a Monk’s ki-based abilities are weak, can’t be used often, and can instead be improving combat ability. They’re also going to have to invest skill points in combat-related skills so they’ll find it difficult to have skills to use out of combat.

A prospective Monk player would be best-directed towards an Unchained Monk, which is able to contribute much more easily in combat. A player wishing to optimize a Chained Monk should look at archetypes like Zen Archer and Sohei, but it’s still difficult to tier these separately since a decent amount of optimization ability is still needed to make these characters effective.



Monk (Unchained)

Monk (Unchained) keeps the flavour of original Monk but is simpler to use and raises damage output to make it an effective melee character. Unchained Monk can now access Pounce to make better use of its great movement speed while full-attacking. The ki-based abilities of Unchained Monk are improved, although their use still competes with improving their combat ability. A Monk is also going to have to invest skill points in combat-related skills so they’ll find it difficult to contribute out of combat.



Brawler

The Brawler is an effective melee combatant, and its signature ability of having flexible feats gives it some versatility in play that most martials lack. A player can use this to gain particular feat combinations to make it effective against specific enemies, encounters or in niche combat situations. Dealing with a lot of mooks? Time to take Cleave and Great Cleave. Have some aerial enemies? Pick up a ranged weapon proficiency and some archery feats. Want to push people off a bridge? Take Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush. Light armor access means they don't have to invest so heavily in DEX to reach AC benchmarks. Outside of combat, however, Brawler has limited ability to contribute to the party.

[Thunder999]

You don't spend any extra money enchanting fists, Handwraps (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Handwraps) let you just enchant your fists for the same cost as a normal weapon.

There's an argument an unchained monk might want the amulet since some style strikes are kicks.

Also now that I think about it, all these classes can leverage mobility pretty well and I completely forgot to mention it: Pummeling Charge (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Pummeling%20Charge) is pounce for unarmed strikes as a feat, the pre-req, Pummeling Style, also lets you total your damage then apply DR only once.

[Kurald Galain]

They get bonus damage to unarmed attacks but
More to the point, an unarmed attack with bonus damage deals the same as a regular weapon. The term "bonus damage" is misleading: it's not actually a benefit to the monk, but it's a mitigation of a penalty.


works with effects that boost attacks per round like haste
The chained monk's flurry also stacks with haste, and the unchained monk's flurry also does not stack with TWF (or for that matter, natural attacks).

[pabelfly]

You don't spend any extra money enchanting fists, Handwraps (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Handwraps) let you just enchant your fists for the same cost as a normal weapon.


More to the point, an unarmed attack with bonus damage deals the same as a regular weapon. The term "bonus damage" is misleading: it's not actually a benefit to the monk, but it's a mitigation of a penalty.

The chained monk's flurry also stacks with haste, and the unchained monk's flurry also does not stack with TWF (or for that matter, natural attacks).

Okay, fixed these. Thanks for the critiques.

[Rynjin]

One minor benefit a Brawler has over a Monk with unarmed combat is that they can wear armor, which means they have access to the Brawling armor property, which gives a +2 to attack AND damage for unarmed strikes (and Grapple checks).

It's a bit expensive (+3 enhancement bonus equivalent), but it's an untyped bonus so it stacks with everything.

They can also get a bit of cheeky utility with the Steel-Breaker archetype, which makes the Brawler an effective "lockpicker". They can ignore Hardness (up to no limit if they can make the relevant check) and so can bash down any door. Combined with Trap Wrecker (an Orc/Half-Orc only Feat) they can also disarm traps quite well this way.

But yeah that's about it for out of combat class features available to Brawler.

[pabelfly]

One minor benefit a Brawler has over a Monk with unarmed combat is that they can wear armor, which means they have access to the Brawling armor property, which gives a +2 to attack AND damage for unarmed strikes (and Grapple checks).

It's a bit expensive (+3 enhancement bonus equivalent), but it's an untyped bonus so it stacks with everything.

They can also get a bit of cheeky utility with the Steel-Breaker archetype, which makes the Brawler an effective "lockpicker". They can ignore Hardness (up to no limit if they can make the relevant check) and so can bash down any door. Combined with Trap Wrecker (an Orc/Half-Orc only Feat) they can also disarm traps quite well this way.

But yeah that's about it for out of combat class features available to Brawler.

Added a note about light armor access, so thanks for the notes.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, so I think I’ll leave my rating for the baseline Brawler at 4.0. I’ll bump Exemplar up to 3.8.

And I’ll give Unchained Monk a rating of 4.2. This is mostly due to being MAD. It’s also a little bit due to the combination of a poor Will save and being punished for wearing armor. I normally consider Mind Buttressing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/mind-buttressing/) armor to be the best mitigation for a poor Will save.

I’m giving Brawler a pass on both of those issues, because the only class feature it loses for wearing armor is the AC bonuses.

Edit: On the subject of Brawling armor, Monk's can get it on Bracers of Armor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-armor/). Mind Buttressing is restricted to medium and heavy armor, which is why Monk's can't get that. The best you can get out of Bracers of armor is +7 in special abilities though, so it still represents slightly more limited access to even those armor abilities that are compatible.

[Rynjin]

Edit: On the subject of Brawling armor, Monk's can get it on Bracers of Armor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-armor/). Mind Buttressing is restricted to medium and heavy armor, which is why Monk's can't get that. The best you can get out of Bracers of armor is +7 in special abilities though, so it still represents slightly more limited access to even those armor abilities that are compatible.

Brawling is limited to Light armor, which Bracers of Armor sadly do not count as.

[Maat Mons]

Oh, sorry. I missed that.

[Kurald Galain]

I normally consider Mind Buttressing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/mind-buttressing/) armor to be the best mitigation for a poor Will save.
MB armor gives a resistance bonus, meaning it doesn't stack with a Cloak of Resistance.

[pabelfly]

Okay, so I think I’ll leave my rating for the baseline Brawler at 4.0. I’ll bump Exemplar up to 3.8.

And I’ll give Unchained Monk a rating of 4.2. This is mostly due to being MAD. It’s also a little bit due to the combination of a poor Will save and being punished for wearing armor. I normally consider Mind Buttressing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/mind-buttressing/) armor to be the best mitigation for a poor Will save.

I’m giving Brawler a pass on both of those issues, because the only class feature it loses for wearing armor is the AC bonuses.

Edit: On the subject of Brawling armor, Monk's can get it on Bracers of Armor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-armor/). Mind Buttressing is restricted to medium and heavy armor, which is why Monk's can't get that. The best you can get out of Bracers of armor is +7 in special abilities though, so it still represents slightly more limited access to even those armor abilities that are compatible.

Okay, updated the votes. Also updated the Pathfinder tier list and added the summary text for both Monks and Brawler.

[Maat Mons]

The thing I like about Mind Buttressing armor isn’t the bonus to all Will saves. It’s the immunity to Compulsions. Those are, I feel, the most dangerous Will-save effects.

In Pathfinder, even Mind Blank no longer gives immunity to any sort of mind-affecting effect. And the Protection from X line of spells now each only protect against Compulsions from creatures of a specific alignment.

[Kurald Galain]

On further reflection, I do agree that Sohei and Zen Archer chained monk are tier 4. Because unlike the regular chained monk, they're actually capable in combat.

[Bucky]

I missed this thread the first time through.

Monk is a clear tier 5. Scaling fast movement is pretty good, as is Abundant Step, but the monk doesn't have much useful to do while moving.

Tetori Monk is a low tier four - call it tier 4.3 - because it does have something worthwhile at the end of the movement. A competent and fast grappler who can nullify freedom of movement gives a fair variety of enemies trouble.

Brawler's a Tier 4 on in-combat versatility, although I have to wonder whether there's a way to get firearms to count as close/monk weapons for Brawler’s Flurry.

[pabelfly]

VOTE UPDATE

Monk
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelula - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Maat Mons, Bucky – 5

Average – 4.83

Monk (Tetori)
Bucky – 4.3



Monk (Zen Archer)
Thunder 999, Kurald Galain, Bucky, Peat – 4



Monk (Sohei)
Thunder 999, Kurald Galain – 4



Unchained Monk
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Darvin, Drelula – 4
Maat Mons - 4.2

Average – 4.03



Brawler
Gnaeus – 3.7
AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Rynjin, Darvin, Maat Mons, Drelula, Bucky – 4.0
Kurald Galain – 4.5

Average – 4.02



Brawler (Exemplar Archetype)
Rynjin - 3.5
Maat Mons – 3.8
Kurald Galain - 4.5

Average – 3.93

[Bucky]

I'll also toss in the third Tier 4 rating for Zen Archer. They lose a lot of the monk's nice perks (evasion, improved evasion and maneuver training), and their specialization is crippling to the monk's normal subpar combat style. But they gain genuine competence at archery, and they keep their fast movement and Abundant Step.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think Exemplar is a tier increase; I'll vote 4.5 for it as well.

[Peat]

I feel like I've seen Zen Archer vs Fighter Archer comparisons a fair few times with it generally being considered a draw - this being post AWT - so that screams Tier 4 to me too.

[vasilidor]

Basic unchained Monk - 5.
Chained Qui Gong Monk - 4.
Brawler -4.
Unchained Monk -4.

[pabelfly]

VOTE UPDATE

Monk (Chained)
Rynjin, Darvin, Drelua - 4.5
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Maat Mons, Bucky, Vasilidor – 5

Average – 4.85

Monk (Tetori)
Bucky – 4.3



Monk (Zen Archer)
Thunder 999, Kurald Galain, Bucky, Peat, Drelua, Rynjin – 4



Monk (Sohei)
Thunder 999, Kurald Galain, Drelua, Rynjin – 4



Monk (Qui Gong)
Vasildor – 4



Unchained Monk
Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Darvin, Drelua, Vasilidor – 4
Maat Mons - 4.2

Average – 4.03



Brawler
Gnaeus – 3.7
AvatarVecna, Thunder999, Rynjin, Darvin, Maat Mons, Drelua, Bucky, Vasilidor – 4.0
Kurald Galain – 4.5

Average – 4.02



Brawler (Exemplar Archetype)
Rynjin - 3.5
Maat Mons – 3.8
Kurald Galain - 4.5

Average – 3.93

[Drelua]

I would agree that Zen Archers are Tier 4, more effective in combat than a baseline monk but not really good at anything but shooting things.

Sohei I'd also say Tier 4, I played one in PFS up to like level 14. Even though I kinda botched the point buy since I didn't really know what I was doing with the character at first, (way too much dex, not enough str) having weapon training (polearms) and flurrying with a nodachi was quite a bit more effective than a regular monk. Especially when I had advanced weapon training, there was gunslingers and cannon golems in one scenario we played and I was consistently chopping their bullets out of the air until they just gave up on shooting me.

My impression of Tetori has never been that they were very much of an upgrade, if they're an upgrade at all, so I won't rate them separately.

Also, @Pabelfly, not a big deal but I just noticed my name's spelled wrong in your last vote update. Just the one L.

[pabelfly]

I would agree that Zen Archers are Tier 4, more effective in combat than a baseline monk but not really good at anything but shooting things.

Sohei I'd also say Tier 4, I played one in PFS up to like level 14. Even though I kinda botched the point buy since I didn't really know what I was doing with the character at first, (way too much dex, not enough str) having weapon training (polearms) and flurrying with a nodachi was quite a bit more effective than a regular monk. Especially when I had advanced weapon training, there was gunslingers and cannon golems in one scenario we played and I was consistently chopping their bullets out of the air until they just gave up on shooting me.

My impression of Tetori has never been that they were very much of an upgrade, if they're an upgrade at all, so I won't rate them separately.

Also, @Pabelfly, not a big deal but I just noticed my name's spelled wrong in your last vote update. Just the one L.

Added your votes and fixed the spelling. Sorry for the typo.

[Rynjin]

I don't think I ever gave my votes for the archetypes in question, but I agree with Sohei and Zen Archer as T4.

Tetori is neato, but arguably weaker in many ways than Core Monk. You give up a lot to hyperspecialize in a single (admittedly very good) gimmick.

[Bucky]

Re: Tetori, pabelfly treats "I won't rate this archetype" differently from "I rate this archetype the same as the base version of the class" and I'm not sure which one you meant.

[Kurald Galain]

A notable archetype is the Qinggong Monk, that can change lacklustre monk powers (e.g. slow fall) for an SLA from a fairly lengthy list. Unfortunately, this looks great on paper but doesn't do all that much in practice (indeed, in almost a decade of gameplay I have never noticed this in practice), as the list has no standout powers that would actually raise the monk's tier. Forum threads that try to make this powerful boil down to finding a loophole that gives infinite ki points; but Pathfinder explicitly disallows this under the "Bag of Rats" rule, and let's face it, GMs are not letting you get away with infinite loops. So that's still tier 5.
Per my earlier comment, Qinggong monk is still tier 5 (also, that's how you spell Qinggong :smalltongue:). Tetori appears to be a downgrade over chained monk, because it cannot flurry and you can probably make a better grappler with a baseline monk and the Binding Throw feat; so I'd say that's also tier 5.

[Rynjin]

Re: Tetori, pabelfly treats "I won't rate this archetype" differently from "I rate this archetype the same as the base version of the class" and I'm not sure which one you meant.

Same as base class, then. It's a specialized sub-variant of Monk which is good at different things and bad at different things.


Per my earlier comment, Qinggong monk is still tier 5 (also, that's how you spell Qinggong :smalltongue:). Tetori appears to be a downgrade over chained monk, because it cannot flurry and you can probably make a better grappler with a baseline monk and the Binding Throw feat; so I'd say that's also tier 5.

It is very much not worse at Grappling than the base Monk. It gets a lot of benefits to that end that paper over the issues with Grappling in general (like people teleporting out of your hands), and FLurry doesn't matter for grappling anyway Grapple isn't one of the Combat maneuvers you can do in place of an attack.

There's an argument to be made that it's worse at the job than Maneuver Master, however.

[pabelfly]

Okay, writeups for Zen Archer and Sohei. Let me know what I've missed.



There are two outstanding archetypes for Monk that rise it to a T4 class, Sohei and Zen Archer.

Zen Archer turns Monk into an extremely competent archer. Firstly, it turns Flurry of Blows into a ranged attack so a Zen Archer can use it much more consistently. They get bonus feats to make Archery work, and those bonus feats don’t need their prerequisites, which can be really handy to help with the MAD issues that both Monks and Archers often deal with.

Sohei lets Monk use a lot of weapons they normally don’t have access to, and also lets them flurry their weapon of choice, including reach weapons and bows. They also gain access to Weapon Training and Advanced Weapon Training from Fighter, which has some really nice options for martial characters.

Overall, these two archetypes turn Monk from a class of questionable combat ability into capable martials, although they both lack problem-solving options out of combat.

[Bucky]

You need to clarify that these are relative to Chained Monk. Also, the last bit of the Sohei description is redundant and should be cut or made more specific.

[Rynjin]

You need to clarify that these are relative to Chained Monk.

He doesn't need to. Neither archetype is available to Unchained Monk; it doesn't have the same universal compatibility with archetypes that the other three Unchained classes have.

[pabelfly]

You need to clarify that these are relative to Chained Monk. Also, the last bit of the Sohei description is redundant and should be cut or made more specific.

It's actually clear in the Tiering thread that Zen Archer and Sohei are specifically for Chained Monk. I also fixed the text as you suggested.

[Thunder999]

Tetori is easily the best grappler, it's literally the only grappler not trivialised by freedom of movement and/or teleportation.

[Drelua]

It's true that they're best grappler, at least without shape changing into a huge thing with grab and constrict maybe, but that's just because that's a title no one else is trying for. Is being the best grappler really a good thing to try to be? It just doesn't seem that useful, even compared to what a monk can otherwise do. Being able just lock down one opponent for a whole fight, if they're small enough and have a worse CMB/D than you, is useful, but is it really more useful than teleporting around punching people?

I don't think they're bad grapplers, I just don't think grappling is a worthwhile thing to be doing in most fights.

[Rynjin]

It's true that they're best grappler, at least without shape changing into a huge thing with grab and constrict maybe, but that's just because that's a title no one else is trying for. Is being the best grappler really a good thing to try to be? It just doesn't seem that useful, even compared to what a monk can otherwise do. Being able just lock down one opponent for a whole fight, if they're small enough and have a worse CMB/D than you, is useful, but is it really more useful than teleporting around punching people?

I don't think they're bad grapplers, I just don't think grappling is a worthwhile thing to be doing in most fights.

Grappling is arguably the best combat maneuver once you're fully invested, and doesn't have any size limitations. It's an excellent anti-caster tool, and has some weird utility stuff you can tack on like ability damage, while making it easier to actually deal damage to things.

As far as "kill one guy really dead" goes, being a character who can full attack (plus some extra attacks) in a Grapple is pretty high up there.

[Drelua]

Grappling is arguably the best combat maneuver once you're fully invested, and doesn't have any size limitations. It's an excellent anti-caster tool, and has some weird utility stuff you can tack on like ability damage, while making it easier to actually deal damage to things.

As far as "kill one guy really dead" goes, being a character who can full attack (plus some extra attacks) in a Grapple is pretty high up there.

Okay I did kind of assume there was a size limitation, so it's not as bad as I thought. I haven't actually played in years, I'm getting rusty. I also don't see where they're allowed to full attack in a grapple, what am I missing?

Although full attacking in a grapple doesn't seem that great when you're a monk without flurry.

[Thunder999]

Grappling is pretty strong, the concentration DC for a caster is 10+CMB+Spell level, so for any competent grappler that's going to be pretty much impossible as CMB is going to be higher than CL+Casting Mod used for the concentration check, if not you wouldn't be grappling very reliably to begin with.

You can go for the full attack option, you can go Throat Slicer and pin into coup de grace. Grapple as a standard, pin as a move with Greater Grapple, coup de grace next turn (you can actually do it 1 round faster if you have Snapping Turtle Style+Snapping Turtle Clutch and manage to grapple as an immediate action after something misses you, but that's very gimmicky and relies on being missed)

[Rynjin]

Okay I did kind of assume there was a size limitation, so it's not as bad as I thought. I haven't actually played in years, I'm getting rusty. I also don't see where they're allowed to full attack in a grapple, what am I missing?

The base Grapple rules. As long as you can maintain a Grapple as a lower-than-Move action, you can full attack with light or one-handed weapons. Or do the Grab-Constrict boogaloo where you attack-grab-constrict, let go as a Free action, repeat for as many attacks as you have.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say grappling is a good trick but not a tier-changing one. Aside from that, any martial can become a decent grappler; and the best grappler is probably not the Tetori but instead one that can make multiple grabs per turn (e.g. via the Beast Shape spell), or teleport and grab (unlike regular monk, Tetori doesn't get Abundant Step), or that has most reach (several classes can enlarge themselves), or that can negate Mirror Image and similar defenses.

[Drelua]

You know somehow I read the make a grapple check to do damage rule, and assumed that was the only way to do an attack. Either something changed from 3.5, or that just got into my head when I didn't know a lot about the system and stuck around unnoticed for years since.

Still, though, you can make a full attack while grappling, as a monk without flurry. That's probably worse than just making 2 grapple checks to do damage in a turn thanks to greater grapple, at least at most levels. Even with haste letting you make 3 attacks, depending on your target's AC and CMD you might be less likely to get 2 successful hits.

It's a great way to lock down a caster, since the DC to cast is basically impossible, but I don't see it being a very good strategy in most fights. Tetori trades away a lot of good features, I just think it's too specialized to be an upgrade.