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Ragnaros.
2022-10-13, 01:35 PM
I made a survey of the powers and abilities wielded by Sauron. I wanted your opinion if it makes sense to convert some of the character's powers into the DND Spell list.

Is it possible to say the Level, Class, Stats (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc)? Or is it impossible to define and Sauron could only be an NPC?

Spells:

- Volcano Control? - 9th level spell?



"There above the valley of Gorgoroth was built his fortress vast and strong, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower; and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging; and in
the midst of the Land of Mordor he had fashioned the Ruling Ring"

>Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again.

- Earthquake?


"I don’t know,’ said Frodo. ‘It’s been going on for a good while now. Sometimes the ground seems to tremble, sometimes it seems to be the heavy air throbbing in your ears."

"But it was too late. At that moment the rock quivered and trembled beneath them. The great rumbling noise, louder than ever before, rolled in the ground and echoed in the mountains."

- Control Weather?


"The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil, upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas Tirith with threat of war."

- Dominate Monster? - Orcs, Trolls, Nazgûl, Wargs:


"From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain."

"But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them;"

- Sympathy? - the attraction of Gollum and all evils to Mordor:


"Yes, to Mordor,’ said Gandalf. ‘Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there."

- Antimagic field?


"In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued."

"But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed"

- Mass suggestion/Mass charm person?


>"Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning* he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans"

- Create undead? The Nazgûl, Barrow Wight

- Shapechange - Werewolve, serpent, vampire, Annatar


Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form;
(...) And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon (...) and the most perilous, for he could assume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful, so as to deceive all but the most wary


- Self resurrect - twice. With and without the ring.

- Aura of Terror;

- Disease? The Great Plague in third age;

Sauron's Deeds:

I think that He called himself Tar-Mairon, the GREAT (like the Mouth of Sauron called him).

And he really deserves the nickname. If we look at Sauron's "career", he accomplished some feats that few characters can match:

A) In the beginning:

- Was a spy for Melkor in the Court of the Valar, providing vital information and (theoretically) structurally weakening the lamps to be dropped by Melkor.

- Lieutenant of Melkor in Angband in the War of Powers to threaten the flank of the Valar in the siege of Utumno.

- Managed to escape, when wanted by the Valar, after the fall of Utumno.

- Participated in the corruption and creation of the Orcs. The accursed race multiplied, while Melkor was imprisoned in Valinor; already thinking of a numerous force to his master.

- Must have helped rebuild Angband for Melkor's return.

B) In the First Age:

- Took the fortress of Tol Sirion, when it was blessed by the power of Ulmo.

- Imprisoned evil spirits in beasts and created Werewolves.

- With Necromancy and illusion, destroyed an experienced guerrilla group.

- He was able to face the "clash of wills" against Mélian, the Maia.

- Fought and defeated Finrod in the "Battle of Songs of Power".

- He was defeated by the Hound of Oromë (immune against magic), but he was fighting Fate Itself as well.

C) In the second age:

- Religiously engineered the prehistoric men of Middle-earth through displaying powers, occult knowledge of metallurgy and engineering.

- Tricked the elves into creating rings and created the One. Through the One he was able to control the Morgoth Ingredient present in matter. In this way he controlled monsters, human kingdoms, animals and increased his power over the Earth (storms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions).

- Gave 7 rings to the dwarves. They grew rich, but they attracted Balrogs, dragons, and misfortunes.

- Gave the men 9 rings. And these men must have launched dynasties in Harad, Rhûn, Khand, &c. And created the Nazgûl.

- Feigned to be captured by Númenor. From political prisoner he became the king's greatest adviser and high priest.

- Defeated the Valar's lightnings. Used spells to break the barrier of clouds that surrounded Valinor to help Ar-pharazôn's Navy.

- Was physically destroyed by Eru, but survived and "resurrected".

- Even weakened, managed to (telepathically) control half of all creatures, animals or rational beings. And Monster in the Battle of Dagorlad.

- Even weakened, he defeated Gil-galad and Elendil.

D) In the third age:

- Without the One Ring, he was capable of earthquakes, control the weather, volcanic eruptions.

- Gathered (by force of will/presence) Orcs, Trolls, Wargs and other monsters.

- He must have caused the great plague in the Third Age that devastated the realms of men.

- Caused Arnor's downfall.

- He physically rebuilt himself for the second time, without the One Ring in his hand. And still filled Mirkwood with darkness and monsters.

- Rebuilt the entire hierarchical structure and its armies to attack Middle-earth.

But, he didn't count on 4 Hobbits that spoiled all his plans.

If anyone needs it, I send the quotes in the works for the points raised. Some things are theories

KorvinStarmast
2022-10-13, 01:46 PM
I made a survey of the powers and abilities wielded by Sauron. I wanted your opinion if it makes sense to convert some of the character's powers into the DND Spell list.
1. Gandalf is an Aasimar (Protector) lvl 20 Lore Bard with a few epic boons, and he's got an artifact (a ring).
(If he's a PC: he's more correctly an NPC Celestial like a Planetar or a Solar)
2. Sauron an Aasimar (Fallen) lvl 20 Whispers Bard plus a few epic boons, and he's got an artifact (a ring)
(If he's a PC: he's either a Fallen Celestial (like Zariel) or he's a powerful Fiend (One of Mord's Devils or Demon Princes).

Is it possible to say the Level, Class, Stats (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc)? Or is it impossible to define and Sauron could only be an NPC? Honestly? The latter.

But let's play along:

- Volcano Control?
Use Meteor Swarm. Works well enough.
- Earthquake?
Yes.
- Control Weather?
Yes
- Dominate Monster?
Yes.
- Sympathy/Antipathy
Yes.
- Antimagic field?
Probably not, but maybe.
- Mass suggestion/Mass charm person?
Oh, heck yes. Also Suggestion.
- Create undead? The Nazgûl, Barrow Wight
He did not create the barrow wights.
But Nazgul? That's actually him controlling them through their rings, so no.
- Shapechange
Yes!
- Self resurrect - twice. With and without the ring.
Majic Jar? Clone? Maybe that's an epic boon?
- Aura of Terror;
Sure
- Disease? The Great Plague in third age;
Sure.

But, he didn't count on 4 Hobbits that spoiled all his plans. "And I'd have done it if it weren't for those meddling kids!"

Zhorn
2022-10-13, 04:45 PM
But, he didn't count on 4 Hobbits that spoiled all his plans.
"And I'd have done it if it weren't for those meddling kids!"
So much of his scheme was about who had control over a (very large) portion of land... Sauron is a Scooby-doo villain confirmed :smallbiggrin:

Leon
2022-10-13, 08:49 PM
I always have doubts about trying to force characters not made for a specific system to be made to be as much like the character within the confines of a framework that is rather liming to what the narrative of the character actually is.

Rukelnikov
2022-10-13, 09:03 PM
"And I'd have done it if it weren't for those meddling kids!"

Ahahahahahahaha this caught me off guard.

Zevox
2022-10-13, 09:31 PM
My 2 cents is that trying to stat any supernatural being from Tolkien's works in D&D is a fools errand. Magic and the supernatural in Tolkien just work too differently from D&D for 1-to-1 comparisons to be made - especially when you're dealing with the Ainur, who are gods, but operate on their own set of rules that don't really translate into D&D. For instance:


- Self resurrect - twice. With and without the ring.
This displays an ignorance of just what sort of being Sauron is. As one of the Ainur, he can't die. He's a being of spirit - his body can be destroyed, and was on several occasions, each time weakening him as a result, but that's not the same as it is with mortals. Bodies to an Ainu are said to be like clothing to mortals, easily changed and discarded. It takes a certain amount of their power to manifest one, but the Ainur aren't linked to their bodies in the same way that mortals are, so the loss of one is usually more of an inconvenience to them, not a major end to their existence as it is with mortals. So he never really resurrected, either, he just created a new body for himself, which is an entirely natural ability for his kind. The Fall of Numenor in particular was a special case that also robbed him of the ability to create any body that would be considered fair or attractive to mortals, and the loss of the ring combined with the destruction of his body at the end of the War of the Last Alliance left him so weakened that it took millennia for him to be able to return, but he was still very much alive in both cases.

Hell, even at the end of Lord of the Rings, when the Ring is destroyed, Sauron is still not dead. He remains as a malevolent spirit, but he'd pored so much of his power into the ring that its loss permanently reduced him so much that he can never take physical form again, and he's doomed to an impotent existence, incapable of ever affecting the world around him ever again. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, he may as well be dead, but technically he still exists, and another Ainu could track him down if they ever felt like it.

Naanomi
2022-10-14, 02:12 PM
As one of the Ainur, he can't die. He's a being of spirit - his body can be destroyed, and was on several occasions, each time weakening him as a result, but that's not the same as it is with mortals.
To be fair, in Tolkien's cosmology death, at least for sentient things, isn't really a thing that happens... men are different because they go somewhere else; but they are not destroyed on death in any meaningful sense.

Same is true, I suppose, in the Great Wheel to a degree (though destruction of the soul, and thus requiring exceptionally strong resurrection magic, is possible)

Zevox
2022-10-14, 04:38 PM
To be fair, in Tolkien's cosmology death, at least for sentient things, isn't really a thing that happens... men are different because they go somewhere else; but they are not destroyed on death in any meaningful sense.

Same is true, I suppose, in the Great Wheel to a degree (though destruction of the soul, and thus requiring exceptionally strong resurrection magic, is possible)
Aye, what you're describing there is just a system with souls and an afterlife, which most fantasy settings have. The Ainur remain fundamentally different, though, in that they are described as beings of spirit first and foremost, who can take on physical bodies, but don't need to. Losing their body for an Ainu therefore isn't comparable to the death of a mortal being, or even an immortal Elf, who have their own set of rules for death works. It's generally a temporary inconvenience at most to them, not a major change in their state of being.

Samayu
2022-10-14, 07:42 PM
Gandalf was roughly equivalent in power to a balrog. Sauron was way above that level. He had been the right-hand man of Morgoth (one of the Big Five deities), who created the orcs and trolls.

He didn't control the creatures, they did his will. But they felt his will. He was in more direct communication with the Nazgul, but the message was save the ring or your world will end..

As for earthquakes, volcanoes and weather, he didn't use spells, he... The entire Middle Earth, the physicality of it, was imbued with magic (remember the story of The Fellowship on Caradhras). That magic could be bent to one's will, such as the elves of Lothlorien and Rivendell did, but in this case, I think it was more a matter of the territory feeling the presence of Sauron. When he was unhappy, did he reach out and force the ground of the entire region to tremble? Or was he so connected with its magic that it simply trembled along with him?

deadman1204
2022-10-19, 02:09 PM
giving something a character sheet inherently makes them weaker. They are now defined and have rules to follow.

Also, 5th ed is VERY generous to players - its kinda hard to lose. Its hard to imagine a 5th ed monster that a high level group couldn't curb stomp as an after thought.

hamishspence
2022-10-19, 02:33 PM
He did not create the barrow wights.

The Witch King, Sauron's own creation, did send them to the barrows to take up residence, though.




The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself.

KorvinStarmast
2022-10-19, 02:36 PM
The Witch King, Sauron's own creation, did send them to the barrows to take up residence, though. Thanks for quoting a disappointing (to me) book. I was so disappointed with it that I sold it to half price books. I was expecting more and better stories, but this was when it was first published. (And I was hoping for something like The Silmarillion).

I wonder if, now, I'd be more receptive to it since I've read Shippey's books and a bit of of Tolkien's other writings.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-10-19, 07:55 PM
There's no one build that can stand for Sauron in any age, because he's fundamentally different at different points in his career. Hell, the ages themselves were fundamentally different.

In the first age, Sauron is a god. Period. He doesn't have specific powers, he simply is. Everyone is; it's a time of mythology, not mechanics. If he wants to raise a fortress or invent a werewolf, he just... does. The old Lucifer comic series has some great examples of this sort of thing:
https://i.imgur.com/Eiz7bbs.png

Second-age Sauron is probably the closest to the standard D&D ruleset-- you could make a pretty good argument for some sort of epic-level Bard-- but even then the system isn't a great fit. Worming his way into the Numenoran court, forging the One Ring, guiding the development of human civilization...5e doesn't really have rules for any of that. With a sufficiently permissive GM, you could probably do it as a level 1 commoner with no modifications but a +20 bonus to deception.

By the third age, Sauron isn't even a character anymore, really--he's a plot device. He's the evil god the cultists are trying to summon. If he actually manifests, it's the end of the world. That's not the kind of entity that gets stats.

Gurgeh
2022-10-19, 08:47 PM
Gandalf was roughly equivalent in power to a balrog. Sauron was way above that level. He had been the right-hand man of Morgoth (one of the Big Five deities), who created the orcs and trolls.
This isn't pertinent to the debate, just a bit of source-material nitpicking, but I'm confused about the "big five" claim, since I don't recall the number coming up in the text.

The Aratar, the greatest among the Valar, numbered eight: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Mandos, Nienna. You could reasonably consider Melkor to be their peer, but that would make nine, not five.

EDIT: on topic, I don't think it's a useful exercise to put game mechanics on Sauron, or any of Tolkien's characters. The Lord of the Rings is myth before it's fiction, so it's a bad fit for any game system in the first place, but an even worse fit for a rules-heavy, class-based system like D&D.

DracoKnight
2022-10-19, 09:02 PM
I, too, have my doubts as to the ability to build Sauron as a PC. I, nor any of the DMs I know, would never allow a player to take on the lycanthropic curse of the werepterodactyl!

animorte
2022-10-19, 09:04 PM
I, nor any of the DMs I know, would never allow a player to take on the lycanthropic curse of the werepterodactyl!

Well, there goes my next PC…

Rukelnikov
2022-10-19, 10:59 PM
This isn't pertinent to the debate, just a bit of source-material nitpicking, but I'm confused about the "big five" claim, since I don't recall the number coming up in the text.

The Aratar, the greatest among the Valar, numbered eight: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Mandos, Nienna. You could reasonably consider Melkor to be their peer, but that would make nine, not five.

You could also reasonably consider Tulkas to be their peer, making it 10! He probably must have gotten mixed with the Istari.


EDIT: on topic, I don't think it's a useful exercise to put game mechanics on Sauron, or any of Tolkien's characters. The Lord of the Rings is myth before it's fiction, so it's a bad fit for any game system in the first place, but an even worse fit for a rules-heavy, class-based system like D&D.

I agree with respect to unclothed Ainur and maybe other myth tier characters like Iarwain and Ungoliant. But an embodied Maia can be, and most characters of the second and third age too.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-10-20, 09:39 AM
I, too, have my doubts as to the ability to build Sauron as a PC. I, nor any of the DMs I know, would never allow a player to take on the lycanthropic curse of the werepterodactyl!
Oh, well played, sir.
https://i.imgur.com/PwuX0bN.jpg

Samayu
2022-10-23, 06:41 PM
This isn't pertinent to the debate, just a bit of source-material nitpicking, but I'm confused about the "big five" claim, since I don't recall the number coming up in the text.

The Aratar, the greatest among the Valar, numbered eight: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Mandos, Nienna. You could reasonably consider Melkor to be their peer, but that would make nine, not five.

EDIT: on topic, I don't think it's a useful exercise to put game mechanics on Sauron, or any of Tolkien's characters. The Lord of the Rings is myth before it's fiction, so it's a bad fit for any game system in the first place, but an even worse fit for a rules-heavy, class-based system like D&D.

The stories I'm familiar with discussed Manwe, Varda, Ulmo and Aule the most. Melkor was as powerful as most of them. Probably second. That's probably irrelevant, but the reason I brought it up is because they are the big gods. This makes Sauron a not-so-big deity, but a deity nonetheless. While deities have often been statted in D&D, Sauron would not be a PC. In describing his powers, I was basically saying they don't really match spells, so, like you said, it's a bad fit for the game.

Sception
2022-10-24, 09:43 AM
Sauron is in principle the chief angel of a god, that went on to fill the power vacuum when that god was overthrown. Similar to the 4th ed incarnation of Asmodeus, and I would look towards various mechanical implementations of Asmodeus for inspiration on implementing Sauron as a monster. As a PC... yeah, closest you're going to get is probably some sort of sorcerer or bard - a cha based full caster with a focus on enchantment and illusion with a side focus in item creation - to the extent that the system you're implementing him in allows that (ie, not much at all in 5th edition). Maybe mix in a couple levels of paladin for proficiencies and smite. Stat wise ideally you imagine him existing in a rolled stats game where you can say he arbitrarily rolled high stats across the board, but if you're forced to prioritize then mental stats > physical generally. His strength was more in manipulating or outright dominating the minds of those around him, and while he was a monstrous opponent in battle back when he had a body, you can if you need to stretch attribute that more to his overpowered equipment than his bodily strength.

It's certainly easier to implement him in a single player video game environment - which generally allow the protagonist to overlevel and be super good at everything, rather than a cooperative tabletop game context where characters tend to be limited in how much they can do at once for the sake of party balance.


Anyway, yeah, for 5e I'd lean towards something like fallen aasimar paladin 2 / eloquence bard 18, or paladin 2 / aberrant mind sorcerer 18, or maybe even forge cleric 1 / enchanter wizard 19, though the lack of cha focus there puts it slightly behind the previous two options, imo. I'd like to mix artificer in somewhere, but I don't see a way to get enough artificer levels to adequately express that end of the character without sacrificing overmuch from the enchantment/illusion end, which, imo, is the more important part of his characterization.

Ragnaros.
2022-10-24, 10:08 AM
Would Sauron's best class then be a Binder? In view of the dominion exercised over monsters, animals and human beings?

Would it be possible to build based on the 3.5 system? Like, divine rank, class above level 20?

Ragnaros.
2022-10-24, 11:38 AM
My build of Sauron in DND 3.5:

A) Medium Outsider (Ainur, Evil)

B) Divine Rank:

- First age and beginning of second age: 6

- Sauron after forging the One Ring (from S.A: 1693 on): 7

C) Hit Dice and classes:

- First age and beginning of second age: 39d8 + 273 (449 hp); 18 artificer, 21 mage;

- After forging the One Ring: 41d8 + 280 (472 hp); 19 artificer, 1 fighter, 21 mage

D) Initiative: +9

E) Speed: 60 ft

F) Armor Class: First age and beginning of second age: 42 (+6 divine, +5 dex, +3 ring, + 18 DB), touch 42, flat-footed 37

After forging the One Ring: 44 (+7 divine, +3 dex, +13 armor, +1 helm, +10 DB) touch 30, flat-footed 41

G) Base Attack/Grapple: +39/+44, +41/46 Attack: First age and beginning of second age: + 44 touch spell or + 44 ranged spell or by shape

After forging the One Ring: +51 longsword (2d8 + 11, 2d6 vs good opponents, 17-20 x2 +2d6 vs good opponents) melee, or +46 touch spell or + 46 ranged spell

H) Full Attack: First age and beginning of second age: + 44 touch spell or + 44 ranged spell or by
shape;

After forging the One Ring: +51/46/41/36 longsword (2d8 + 11, 2d6 vs good opponents, 17-20 x2 +2d6 vs good opponents) melee, or +46 touch spell or + 46 ranged spell

I) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

J) Special Attacks: Domain powers, divine abilities, spells

K) Special Qualities: Divine immunities; Divine senses; Divine aura (600 yards radius, DC 24, or 700
yards radius, DC 26);

L) Saves: Fort +34; Ref +32, Will +33, Fort +35; Ref +33, Will +35

M) Abilities: Str 21, Dex 20, Con 24, Int 26, Wis 23, Cha 27, Str 21, Dex 20, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 28

N) Skills: Appraise +28, Bluff +42/43, Climb +15, Concentration +37, Craft (stoneworking + 48/50, metalworking +46/50, gemcutting + 38, weaponsmithing +33), Decipher script + 18, Diplomacy +32/33, Disguise +18/21, Gather information +32/33, Handle animal +18/19, Hide +17, Intimidate +42/43, Jump +15, Knowledge (Arcana +48/50, architecture and engineering +28, Geography +38, History +38/40, Local +38, Nature +38, Nobility and royalty +28), Listen +26, Move silently + 15, Profession (smith + 26/30, architect + 26), Ride +15, Search +28, Sense motive + 28, Spellcraft + 48, Spot +27.

O) Feats: Automatic silent spell, Cleave, Combat expertise, Craft epic magic arms and armor, Craft magic arms and armor, Craft wondrous item, Dodge, Energy substitution, Enlarge spell, Epic reputation, Epic spellcasting, Forge epic ring, Forge ring, Heighten spell, Improved initiative, Improved singing, Maximize spell, Power attack, Quicken spell, Scribe scroll, Silent spell, Widen spell.

After forging the One Ring, add Power critical.

P) Alignment: Lawful Evil

Q) Portfolio Darkness, Evil, Treachery, Tyranny
Domains Craft, Evil, Trickery;

After S.A. 1693, add Tyrant

R) Divine immunities Immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage; all those immunities do not apply if the attacker is an ainur of equal or higher rank. Damage reduction 20/epic, darkvision 60 ft., immune electricity, cold and acid (unless the attacker is an ainur with higher DR). Immune to disease, poison, disintegration, paralysis and death effects.
Fire resistance 11 or 12
Spell resistance 38 ot 39

S) Divine abilities Alter form, Craft artifact, Divine glibness, Extra domain, Frightful presence (attacking), Shift form (large constrictor snake, large vampire, large werewolf).

After forging the One Ring, add Extra domain (Tyrant).

After 3319 (Akallabeth), replace Shift form with Divine weapon mastery; after his demise at the end of the second age, replace Divine weapon mastery with Far senses (sight).

Note: after the first destruction of his body in the Akallabeth, Sauron can't use his Shapeshift ability or spell, even epic, to assume a fair form.

T) Domain powers: Creation spells at +1 level; skill focus (metalworking); cast evil spells at +1 level;
cast a wish spell once every day in connection with his domains.

After forging the One Ring, add: all enchantment (compulsion) spells have +2 DC

U) Class abilities: Reduce xp cost: Forge ring, Forge epic ring, Craft magic arms and armor. Favored crafts: stoneworking, metalworking, gemcutting, weaponsmithing.

V) Artificer spells known (1-6): 5/5/4/4/2/2; level 18°, Ability used: Charisma.

Artificer spells per day: 7/7/6/6/3/3; DC 18 + spell level.

Spell Known:

6th level: Fire seeds, Suggestion (mass)

5th level: Command (greater), Fire shield

4 th level: Freedom of movement, Magic weapon (greater) Scrying, Voice of the
dragon

3rd level: Bestow curse, Dispel magic, Nondetection, Suggestion,

2nd level: Aid, Arcane lock, Produce flame, Resist energy, Shatter

1st level: Charm person, Command, Endure elements, Magic weapon, Raging fire

W) Mage spells known: 5/5/5/4/4/3/3/2/1; level 22°. Ability used: Charisma.

Mage spells per day: (level 1-9): 7/7/7/6/5/4/4/3/1; DC 18 + spell level. Spheres: Air/Water, Fire, Illusion, Nature, Sorcery.

Spell known:

9th level: Eruption (Orodruin), Dominate monster, Shapechange, Hold Monster, mass

8th level: Simpathy, Create Greater Undead (Nazgûl), Screen (over Mordor), Charm Monster, Mass, Prying Eyes, Greater, Trap the Soul, Protection from Spells

7th level: Control weather, Limited wish, Control Undead, Hold Person, Mass, Earthquake,

6th level: Mastery of forms, Veil, Eyebite, Create Undead, Symbol of Persuasion, Heroism, Greater, True Seeing, Repulsion, Dispel Magic, Greater, Antimagic Field

5th level: Permanency, Telekinesis, Magic Jar, Nightmare, Wall of Force, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Dominate Person, Telepathic Bond, Major Creation

4th level: Contagion, Fear, Enervation, Ice Storm, Geas, Lesser, Crushing Despair, Confusion, Charm Monster, Scrying, Stoneskin

3rd level: Magic Weapon, Greater, Dispel magic, Halt Undead, Major image, Suggestion, Hold Person, Heroism, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic

2nd level: Darkness, Darkvision, Alter Self, Scare, Command Undead, Minor Image, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Resist Energy

1st level: Cause fear, Charm animal, Magic Weapon, Disguise Self, Burning Hands, True Strike, Comprehend Languages, Unseen Servant, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Endure Elements

0th level: Prestidigitation, Arcane Mark, Resistance

Epic spells known: 7. Epic spells per day: 4; spellcraft check +48

Mage spells per day: (level 1-9): 8/7/7/6/6/4/4/3/2; DC 19 + spell level.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-10-27, 01:51 PM
Would Sauron's best class then be a Binder? In view of the dominion exercised over monsters, animals and human beings?

Would it be possible to build based on the 3.5 system? Like, divine rank, class above level 20?
You could certainly do a much better job in 3.5e; there are way more options, actual rules for crafting, and the power ceiling is technically infinite. But I think you'd still hit the problem of his story just not translating well into D&D mechanics.

(Also, for whatever it's worth, 3.5 Binders weren't about mind control--they were more voodoo-y, sharing their bodies with spirits in exchange for power.)