Suddenly I want to play a soulborn! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Inevitability

2022-10-15, 01:59 AM

I don't know DMs who buy this in serious game.

I mean, if someone tried to talk their way out of the tibbit's -2 racial penalty that'd be one thing (it doesn't work because racial penalties have already been applied, as opposed to being ongoing modifications), but the -8 strength reduction from cat from is pretty explicitly a 'penalty'. I'd allow it at my table. It's not like being Tiny-sized with -2 strength and three natural attacks breaks anything: what's that doing that a kobold can't?

loky1109

2022-10-15, 03:17 AM

I'd allow it at my table. It's not like being Tiny-sized with -2 strength and three natural attacks breaks anything: what's that doing that a kobold can't?
It makes precedent. Bad precedent.

Anthrowhale

2022-10-15, 05:30 AM

It makes precedent. Bad precedent.

Strength of the True Form is already a thing.

loky1109

2022-10-15, 05:37 AM

Strength of the True Form is already a thing.

Yes, but you can't extrapolate this feat to racial penalties. Or something like. You don't need to limit it so hard. It's already limited.

InvisibleBison

2022-10-15, 07:42 AM

It makes precedent. Bad precedent.

So what? A DM isn't bound by precedent.

Zombulian

2022-10-15, 07:51 AM

It makes precedent. Bad precedent.

You say this like Soulborn is a class that needs reining in.

pabelfly

2022-10-15, 08:04 AM

You say this like Soulborn is a class that needs reining in.

The argument that Loky seems to be making is that people will use the same rulings to improve the power of all builds, not just this particular Soulborn build. Like, "if the person playing a Soulborn player can do it, why can't I with my Wizard?" Which is a fair argument to make if you're quite strict on following the exact rules of 3.5 and want to ensure everyone else you play with also follows the same exact rules.

However, I am of the opinion that when a DM is adjudicating how rules work, they can interpret the rules more favourably to make weaker characters and concepts better, while making it clear that they will be stricter towards stronger classes and builds. The weaker player is able to contribute more so they're happy and I think most players are reasonable enough to understand that the DM may need to do some on-the-fly balancing to make sure some characters aren't OP compared to others.

Zombulian

2022-10-15, 08:09 AM

The argument that Loky seems to be making is that people will use the same rulings to improve the power of all builds, not just this particular Soulborn build. Like, "if the person playing a Soulborn player can do it, why can't I with my Wizard?" Which is a fair argument to make if you're quite strict on following the exact rules of 3.5 and want to ensure everyone else you play with also follows the same exact rules.

However, I am of the opinion that when a DM is adjudicating how rules work, they can interpret the rules more favourably to make weaker characters and concepts better, while making it clear that they will be stricter towards stronger classes and builds. The weaker player is able to contribute more so they're happy and I think most players are reasonable enough to understand that the DM may need to do some on-the-fly balancing to make sure some characters aren't OP compared to others.

Yeah. And even so, I’m not sure the benefit is really worth the two levels of soulborn and required alignment in almost any builds anyway.

Darg

2022-10-15, 11:30 AM

holbita

2022-10-15, 01:03 PM

Zombulian

2022-10-15, 02:02 PM

Sure feline transformation's penalty wouldn't apply, but that doesn't mean that your form's natural abilities are affected. The ability states it works similar to polymorph which is our baseline. Then you modify it with the description. So you end up with a Str of 3 with a penalty of -8 (to a minimum of 3).

I don’t think that reading holds water. It doesn’t say it functions “as Polymorph” it says “similar to polymorph” and then explicitly notes everything that happens. I’d recommend giving the ability a re-read, because the assertion that you take on specific stats and then apply adjustments is pretty baseless. Maybe you’re thinking of Hengeokai? I know they work similarly.

The Viscount

2022-10-15, 09:17 PM

big fan of an elf soulborn archer, using manyshot to multiply your smite damage. Specially when your smite is one the more broad ones, a chaotic good soulborn can smite 5 out of the 9 alignments.

And if you don't want to go the elf build and instead go for something lawful, make sure to take the feat ordered chaos to get the benefits of both your chaotic and lawful class abilities.

While I can't say with certainty the RAW doesn't work this way, it is inviting trouble in a class all about devotion to an extreme alignment.

I would strongly advise going evil soulborn (provided it doesn't class with your concept and your table is cool and mature enough to have evil characters). I want to emphasize how much better the meld selection is. The good alignments grant you one (1) unique meld, the armguards of disruption, which are very situational, and even in that situation (fighting undead) not very powerful. The evil alignments grant 7, the necrocarnum melds and gloves of the poisoned soul. I'll admit that I like gloves of the poisoned soul more than most people, but the necrocarnum circlet's crown bind is a big effect you can't duplicate with other melds.

Regardless of the alignment you pick, the big thing when you're making a soulborn is to talk to your DM how the open least, lesser, and greater chakra feats work. Obviously if you take one on a character with no ability to bind before, they grant you 1 bind to use in that slot.
How they interact with meldshaper is unclear. They might simply open those chakras earlier (which alone would make them worth taking then retraining on a soulborn), they might give you +1 bind usable only on that specific chakra, or they might just give you +1 bind per feat taken.
This conversation is crucial to have since it determines whether they merely become useful, or indispensable to a soulborn.

Bonzai

2022-10-16, 12:38 AM

Having played a soulborn, I found them to be boring and frustrating. My biggest problem with it was a lack of ability to change melds out during the day. People complain about the small number of melds they have access to, but actually they have decent options. The problem is that you are going to be stuck using your typical daily melds and never touch your utility options as you would need advanced warning about what your facing, and would force the party to wait on you until you can swap out melds again. So it ends up making the small pool of melds even more limited. It gets boring. I would talk to you DM to see if you can take the epic feat early, or create one that takes 10 minutes to reshape a meld so it isn't an in combat option.

ciopo

2022-10-16, 01:42 AM

Regardless of the alignment you pick, the big thing when you're making a soulborn is to talk to your DM how the open least, lesser, and greater chakra feats work. Obviously if you take one on a character with no ability to bind before, they grant you 1 bind to use in that slot.
How they interact with meldshaper is unclear. They might simply open those chakras earlier (which alone would make them worth taking then retraining on a soulborn), they might give you +1 bind usable only on that specific chakra, or they might just give you +1 bind per feat taken.
This conversation is crucial to have since it determines whether they merely become useful, or indispensable to a soulborn.

It's interesting to me (and "new" information) that the "open X chakra" spell
1) do NOT require the incarnum spellshaping feat (I thought it did)
2) explictly says "A creature benefiting from this spell can bind a soulmeld or magic item to his opened chakra just as if he had gained the ability to form a chakra bind from a feat or class feature." (I've always skimmed over that because I was generally unwilling to pay the incarnum spellshaping feat tax over jist taking the open X chakra feat)

Darg

2022-10-16, 09:55 AM

While I can't say with certainty the RAW doesn't work this way, it is inviting trouble in a class all about devotion to an extreme alignment.

I would strongly advise going evil soulborn (provided it doesn't class with your concept and your table is cool and mature enough to have evil characters). I want to emphasize how much better the meld selection is. The good alignments grant you one (1) unique meld, the armguards of disruption, which are very situational, and even in that situation (fighting undead) not very powerful. The evil alignments grant 7, the necrocarnum melds and gloves of the poisoned soul. I'll admit that I like gloves of the poisoned soul more than most people, but the necrocarnum circlet's crown bind is a big effect you can't duplicate with other melds.

Regardless of the alignment you pick, the big thing when you're making a soulborn is to talk to your DM how the open least, lesser, and greater chakra feats work. Obviously if you take one on a character with no ability to bind before, they grant you 1 bind to use in that slot.
How they interact with meldshaper is unclear. They might simply open those chakras earlier (which alone would make them worth taking then retraining on a soulborn), they might give you +1 bind usable only on that specific chakra, or they might just give you +1 bind per feat taken.
This conversation is crucial to have since it determines whether they merely become useful, or indispensable to a soulborn.

Shape Soulmeld feat is more specific than the aligned soul meld feature. Using it you can shape off alignment melds and melds from other classes.

Open X Chakra feats call it a "newfound chakra." It'd require not paying attention to the feat to think it would allow you to bind an extra meld/item if you already have the chakra open. If it did there wouldn't be a point to the double/split chakra feats.

Eldonauran

2022-10-16, 10:16 AM

Hmmmm... I love everything about this book. Even the soulborn. I used 4 levels of it once in my first Iron Chef entry a while go.

LecternOfJasper

2022-10-16, 10:30 AM

Open X Chakra feats call it a "newfound chakra." It'd require not paying attention to the feat to think it would allow you to bind an extra meld/item if you already have the chakra open. If it did there wouldn't be a point to the double/split chakra feats.

I think the problem isn't that people expect to bind multiple melds to the same chakra. The debate mainly is over these 3 readings:

A.) Does the chakra just get opened, without gaining the ability to bind a soulmeld to it separate from the "chakra binds" number for each class? (This seems to obviously not be the case, as it would be useless for people without incarnum class levels to take, but it does keep getting brought up)

B.) Does the chakra get opened, and you also get the ability to bind a meld to that chakra specifically? (This is probably the most reasonable reading, as you're opening a specific chakra so you can bind melds to it and it alone using the feat.)

C.) Does the chakra get opened, and you also get a floating chakra bind point, that can be used to bind melds to any chakra you have opened? (This reading is based on how the "chakra binds" class feature typically works. With the feat not being terribly clear, I'd say it's also close to a valid reading.)

Eldonauran

2022-10-16, 10:46 AM

B.) Does the chakra get opened, and you also get the ability to bind a meld to that chakra specifically? (This is probably the most reasonable reading, as you're opening a specific chakra so you can bind melds to it and it alone using the feat.)
I believe this is the correct reading. Everyone has chakra points in which to shape soul melds, provided they have the ability to shape them in the first place (and the CON score required to do so). The feat opens up the (specific) chakra to bind a soul meld to (or magic item). Binding a soul meld to that chakra locks it from benefitting from a magic item effect. Essentially, this adds +1 to the number of Chakra binds the character can have. (ie, Incarnates start with 0 listed for their binds)

The information is a little broken up in the book, from page 5-6 which describe what Soul Melds are, to the beginning of the class chapter where it discuses multi classed meld shapers, to the feat section. I remember a lot of people had issues with understanding the material when it first came out, and that might still be ongoing.

LecternOfJasper

2022-10-16, 11:33 AM

Essentially, this adds +1 to the number of Chakra binds the character can have. (ie, Incarnates start with 0 listed for their binds)

The information is a little broken up in the book, from page 5-6 which describe what Soul Melds are, to the beginning of the class chapter where it discuses multi classed meld shapers, to the feat section. I remember a lot of people had issues with understanding the material when it first came out, and that might still be ongoing.

Ah, but if we are explaining it like that, then couldn't that +1 to the number of chakra binds the character can have be used for a different chakra (that they also have open)? I would say PROBABLY not, which makes the explanation of what's happening a bit more annoying.

"Adds +1 to the number of chakra binds the character can have, but this point can only be used on the chakra opened by the feat" is probably the most succinct way of saying it.

Eldonauran

2022-10-16, 11:46 AM

If I had a player attempting to suggest such a thing, I'd simply tell them no and move on. Seems they are more interested in squeezing power out of a single feat at all costs rather than keeping in mind the entire dynamic of the mechanics in question. "No, you get to bind a single soul meld to the chakra unlocked by this feat, regardless of any other chakra binds you might have. If you want to bind a soul meld and a magic item to the same chakra, there is another feat for that. Game mechanics do not exist in a vacuum."

If I had to explain the system to a complete newbie, it would go like this:

Con score - 10 = number of soul melds you can shape.
Meldshaper class + shape soul meld feat = List of soul melds you have access to shape.
Soul melds exists in two forms, 1) shaped (item slot unoccupied), 2) shaped AND bound (item slot occupied)
Chakra binds = 0, unless a meld shaper class or feats adds to this

Darg

2022-10-16, 12:24 PM

I think the problem isn't that people expect to bind multiple melds to the same chakra. The debate mainly is over these 3 readings:

A.) Does the chakra just get opened, without gaining the ability to bind a soulmeld to it separate from the "chakra binds" number for each class? (This seems to obviously not be the case, as it would be useless for people without incarnum class levels to take, but it does keep getting brought up)

B.) Does the chakra get opened, and you also get the ability to bind a meld to that chakra specifically? (This is probably the most reasonable reading, as you're opening a specific chakra so you can bind melds to it and it alone using the feat.)

C.) Does the chakra get opened, and you also get a floating chakra bind point, that can be used to bind melds to any chakra you have opened? (This reading is based on how the "chakra binds" class feature typically works. With the feat not being terribly clear, I'd say it's also close to a valid reading.)

Each chakra opening feat opens one chakra from a list. It's only a floating option if you take the feat for the chameleon's floating feat. The feat specifically tells you that you can now bind a soulmeld or magic item to that specific chakra.

Your "C" option makes no sense. Classes express which chakra is opened on the class table under special features. The incarnate gets crown at level 2 and feet and hands at level 4 for example.

Since only one soulmeld can occupy any given chakra, you can usually only bind one soulmeld to any chakra. The Double Chakra feat allows you to break this rule: with that feat, you can have two soulmelds occupying or bound to the same chakra.

The rule is you can only have 1 bind per chakra except for the explicit exception of the double chakra feat.

Thane of Fife

2022-10-16, 01:48 PM

Each chakra opening feat opens one chakra from a list. It's only a floating option if you take the feat for the chameleon's floating feat. The feat specifically tells you that you can now bind a soulmeld or magic item to that specific chakra.

Your "C" option makes no sense. Classes express which chakra is opened on the class table under special features. The incarnate gets crown at level 2 and feet and hands at level 4 for example..

There is a difference between chakras being open and number of chakra binds allowed. For example, a 12th level soulborn has their crown, feet, and hands chakras open, but is limited to only one chakra bind at a time (see Table 2-3). If the character takes Open Lesser Chakra, they can open their arms, brow, or shoulders chakra.

Suppose they pick shoulders. Does that mean that they are now allowed to have a chakra bind in one of crown, feet, hands, or shoulders? Or does it mean that they can have two chakra binds: one in shoulders and one in crown, feet, or hands? Or does it mean they can have two chakra binds which can be in any combination of their four open chakras?

It is in question because, for example, a 6th level soulborn could take Open Least Chakra, but has no class-allowed chakra binds (I.e. they have a "0" on the table). If they take the feat, do they open a chakra but are then unable to bind to it? Or do they get a free bind with the feat?

Eldonauran

2022-10-16, 02:12 PM

It is in question because, for example, a 6th level soulborn could take Open Least Chakra, but has no class-allowed chakra binds (I.e. they have a "0" on the table). If they take the feat, do they open a chakra but are then unable to bind to it? Or do they get a free bind with the feat?They open a specific chakra AND are able to bind to it. One has to consider that whenever a chakra is open in any of the class tables, a chakra bind is added to the table. The exception being the Totemist because they have that weird Totem Chakra, though even then their initial number of binds increase by +1 when they get the Totem Chakra Bind ability.

In the instance of later opening the chakras through class features, the open soul meld feat becomes less necessary but still offers the initial bonus AND an additional chakra bind you wouldn't normally posses. In the example provided, a 6th level Soulborn with the feat would have 1 Chakra Bind, and once they get to level 8 to open their chakras normally, they would have 2.

Darg

2022-10-16, 08:44 PM

There is a difference between chakras being open and number of chakra binds allowed. For example, a 12th level soulborn has their crown, feet, and hands chakras open, but is limited to only one chakra bind at a time (see Table 2-3). If the character takes Open Lesser Chakra, they can open their arms, brow, or shoulders chakra.

Suppose they pick shoulders. Does that mean that they are now allowed to have a chakra bind in one of crown, feet, hands, or shoulders? Or does it mean that they can have two chakra binds: one in shoulders and one in crown, feet, or hands? Or does it mean they can have two chakra binds which can be in any combination of their four open chakras?

It is in question because, for example, a 6th level soulborn could take Open Least Chakra, but has no class-allowed chakra binds (I.e. they have a "0" on the table). If they take the feat, do they open a chakra but are then unable to bind to it? Or do they get a free bind with the feat?

Ah, ok. I think I understand what you are saying. Let's frame the question as "Would a non-meldshaper benefit from the Open Chakra feats?" The answer is yes. The reason for that is extremely simple: the feat says you can. A 6th level Soulborn with the Open Least Chakra (feet) feat can bind to the feet. An 8th level Soulborn doesn't just negate the benefit from the feat. The class allows you to bind to the crown, hands, and feet at 8th, but only one of them. If you bind your crown, the feat still says you can bind to your feet. So you can. You wouldn't be able to bind to your crown and hands at 8th level if you only have the feet version of the feat because the feat only allows you to bind to your feet.