What Warlock Would We...Wike?

[Burley]

Okay, it's supposed to be "Like", but I enjoy alliteration.
Anyways, I'm obsessed with the D&D Warlock, and I'm looking for ideas to make mine the greatest there ever was.

This thread is for the discussion of the 3.5ed Warlock (pro and con), invocations, and new abilities that you think would be super super sweet.

Please, keep it friendly...cause the Warlock is the friendliest of all the Chaotic classes...maybe...

[Mr. Friendly]

I think I would like them to fold the Dragon Disciple and Warlock into a single class. Both have really good invocations. Both have a nifty effect.

So why not just make them the same class, just give them the choice of BW or EB?

I haven't actually played a Warlock, but they are pretty cool.

I think if they give you paths to walk down within a class, then you should have the normal 3.5 warlock, with a few new powers and what not, DD with a few new powers and a whole new version - the Incanter let's call him; all incantations, no breath weapon or blast.

[triforcel]

I am a huge fan of the Warlock. I've played a couple and found that I prefer a roguish approach to him. Taking the invocations that shatter locks, dimension door into rooms, turn invisible and fly away, etc. The last one I played had the Crawling Eye and Disembodied Hand invocations from complete mage. He would laze about the inn's common room with an eye patch and his hand in his pocket while the two worked to relieve the rooms upstairs of their small valuables.

[Xefas]

I have found that Warlock levels are fantastic to spice up a normal monster or to make an interesting NPC. Rework the flavor, and you can get a lot of things.

You can make a ninja, a vampire, a superhero or whatever with them...but they just aren't that useful as a PC. They're fun as all hell there for a while, but in a really long campaign that spans 10 or so levels, you're going to get really bored when all the spellcasters and martial adepts get cool stuff every level, and you're still starving for invocations. I would say in extended campaign play, to just go with a sorcerer and say you're satanic or whatever.

Anyway, onto a specific NPC example. Kobold Warlocks are awesome to use against a higher level party than they are. A warren of 1st-3rd level Kobold Warlocks have everything they need to beat the stuffing out of an unprepared adventuring party of 8-10th level. Ranged touch attacks and swarms guarantee hits even against high AC opponents, all the abilities that cause concealment are a flat % not effected by level, Baleful Utterance is a barrel of laughs, etc.

[Duke of URL]

Problem is, there are three main Warlock archetypes: Melee, Archer/Blaster, and Controller. Which one were you thinking of?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Problem is, there are three main Warlock archetypes: Melee, Archer/Blaster, and Controller. Which one were you thinking of?

Also, don't forget utility.

[slexlollar89]

I have to say the warlock is my favorite non-primary-mele class. I enjoy warlocks that use their invocations rather than just blasty blast everything (I even argued with my DM to homebrew an invoker class!), and have also homebrewed a ton of my own invocations for good warlocks. Seriouly, an exalted warlock using stuff like "hungry darkness" or "baleful uterance" is kind of oxymoronic, so I made some good-ish invocations and some fey invocations rather than the regular fiendish sounding ones.

[brian c]

I've heard good things about Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II I think, or might be FCI)

[Kurald Galain]

I've heard good things about Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II I think, or might be FCI)

FC2. Hellfire gets +6d6 to blast damage, which makes them a viable combatant.

Warlocks are cool, but are simply starving for feats and invocations. I'd suggest houseruling them to gain one invocation each level.

[averagejoe]

Great thread title. I pretty much had to post here because of it.

I agree that warlocks were a great idea, and a much-needed fresh approach to arcane spellcasting, that tend to scale badly. I think it would be cool (maybe not good, but cool) to give some better melee options via invocations. "Demon form" type invocations granting strength, claw attacks, and the like.

[-Cor-]

I don't like the Warlock. Seems like an easy button to me. Take two ranged feats and one to increase you SR penetration. Try to get your save DC as high as you can for blast invocations and then just stand behind the party and roll RTAs until the mob's dead.

What's the touch AC? 11? Okay I hit for xd6 dmg.

Rinse repeat.

It got old really fast.

The other "tricks" that the warlock does just seem to take all the fun out of doing those same tricks with other classes or races.

All in all, I found the class particularly boring.

I once played a Halfling Warlock with the Ghost template for a one-off 10th level session. Probably one of the more broken things I've ever built.

As someone said earlier, it probably would have made for an amazing BBeG or minion, but as a PC... *yawn*.

[Mr. Friendly]

I don't like the Warlock. Seems like an easy button to me. Take two ranged feats and one to increase you SR penetration. Try to get your save DC as high as you can for blast invocations and then just stand behind the party and roll RTAs until the mob's dead.

What's the touch AC? 11? Okay I hit for xd6 dmg.

Rinse repeat.

It got old really fast.

The other "tricks" that the warlock does just seem to take all the fun out of doing those same tricks with other classes or races.

All in all, I found the class particularly boring.

I once played a Halfling Warlock with the Ghost template for a one-off 10th level session. Probably one of the more broken things I've ever built.

As someone said earlier, it probably would have made for an amazing BBeG or minion, but as a PC... *yawn*.

I mean, you were rolling 50% miss chance every time you shot your EB right? Since it is not a Force effect, y'know. :smallwink:

[Burley]

Okay. I'm gettin some great feedback. I'm likin' it. :smallbiggrin:

I'd just like to remark: Kudos to slexlollar89 for bringing up the Fey side of the Warlock. Too many people group them with Dark and Dangerous Demons, and, while it's an interesting stigma to role play, it gets a little agrivating when everbody around the table imagines sulfer and screaming with each blast, while the Warlock's player is thinkin' more along the lines of ethereal energy and the smell of static.

Also to slexlollar89: I'm interested in your "homebrewed" invocations. These are the kinds of things that can broaden a thread. :smallwink:

[Xefas]

Seriouly, an exalted warlock using stuff like "hungry darkness" or "baleful utterance" is kind of oxymoronic, so I made some good-ish invocations and some fey invocations rather than the regular fiendish sounding ones.

Couldn't you call it "Not-Very-Hungry-But-I-Could-Eat Light" and "Word of Unmaking"?

The Hungry Darkness could be reflavored to an area of blinding light, filled with a swarm of little glowy light balls that shock people ala Lantern Archon.

The Baleful Utterance could be changed from a word of Dark Speech to a word of Truenaming or Words of Creation or whatever the Exalted get.

Though, I don't see how darkness and breaking are inherently non-good. Heck, you wouldn't even have to reflavor Hungry Darkness, just rename it to something having to do with the first layer of Celestia, Lunia, where it's 24hour night-time, and there are probably bats.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Actually, SR isn't even a problem for most Warlocks above 10 since Vitriolic Blast simply ignores Spell Resistance... Throw in Eldritch Chain and Eldritch Doom as your blast shapes, and suddenly you're the ultimate turret.

basically, Warlocks are great in long, drawn-out situations thanks to their DR, Fast Healing, and ability to use invocations infinitely. Slow them down with a Wall of Perilous Flame or Frigid Tentacles, then blast them to bits with no-SR ranged touch attacks that deal what... 9d6 at maximum? (Like, 30 damage on average though...)

If you can, take Hellfire Warlock and 1 level of Binder. That way you can bind that vestige that lets you heal 1 ability damage around... Then just blast Hellfire blasts endlessly.

[AmberVael]

On the subject of non-demon warlocks, I did an interesting little... semi-fey style thing.
I'm currently playing a Warlock known as Rasphiak. The idea behind him is that he's sort of an avatar- not in a full capacity, but the same sort of thing. He is an aspect of a nature spirit (I'm aiming for eastern style nature spirit here) which guards the cycle of life, death, and nature in general. As such, he is granted power from that source to protect himself and serve its purposes.
I stole an idea for flavor from... Complete Mage, I think it was. They suggested that some things would be completely taboo to a warlock, or that they'd have to follow rules that made no sense to others. It reminded me of the Wu Jen.

In practice, I'm finding that he's not as good as I would have liked. He gets a great deal of use out of the invocations I give him, but frankly he could be more versatile. I might speak with my DM about making the class a wee bit better. Maybe take some penalties in return for extra invocations.

[Jothki]

The Hungry Darkness could be reflavored to an area of blinding light, filled with a swarm of little glowy light balls that shock people ala Lantern Archon.

That also seems like a good candidate for Fey-based reflavoring, maybe some sort of a field that confuses anyone who looks into or enters it.

[Duke of URL]

I have to say the warlock is my favorite non-primary-mele class. I enjoy warlocks that use their invocations rather than just blasty blast everything (I even argued with my DM to homebrew an invoker class!), and have also homebrewed a ton of my own invocations for good warlocks. Seriouly, an exalted warlock using stuff like "hungry darkness" or "baleful uterance" is kind of oxymoronic, so I made some good-ish invocations and some fey invocations rather than the regular fiendish sounding ones.

Seriously? I could use your input on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62130) in Homebrew, where I'm trying to "fix" invokers in general, and I actually have preliminary skeletons of Celestial and Fey invokers there. (With Warlocks being reclassified as Infernal invokers).

[GimliFett]

I use an alternate invocation progression in my games:

Invocations Known:Warlocks begin knowing two Least Invocations of their choice at 1st level. They learn additional invocations as follows:
2nd level +1 Least
4th level +1 Least
5th level +1 Least
6th level +1 Least or Lesser
8th level +1 Least or Lesser
9th level +1 Least or Lesser
10th level +1 Least or Lesser
11th level +1 Least, Lesser or Greater
13th level +1 Least, Lesser or Greater
14th level +1 Least, Lesser or Greater
15th level +1 Least, Lesser or Greater
16th level +1 Least, Lesser, Greater or Dark
18th level +1 Least, Lesser, Greater or Dark
19th level +1 Least, Lesser, Greater or Dark
20th level +1 Least, Lesser, Greater or Dark

It works nicely and adds more variety and versatility.

Also, I've got some invocations I created. I'll post 'em once I find 'em.

[Craig1f]

The warlock can get boring, because you're just doing the same thing over and over. That said, so can pretty much every other class that's not a full-progression spellcaster.

In my current campaign, they needed a healer, so I went the Cleric3/Warlock1/Eldritch Disciple10 route (now with two levels of contemplative). I took Travel and Protection domains.

This was nice because I can heal as needed, Eldritch Disciple levels also provide healing blast, circle of protection on demand, and full progression in both classes. Healing blast saves me from having to use Cure spells a lot. Then I took two Extra Turning feats, along with 3 divine feats and battle caster. Contemplative 1 gave me the Moon domain (he worships Selune) which give 7 turn Lycanthropes for use with the Divine Spellpower feat. I also have Divine Retrieve Spell, and Domain Spontenaity.

So now, I have a level 16 character, that can cast cleric spells as a level 20 caster (divine spellpower), retrieve 2 level 6 spells a day (15 turns a day) and still boost 7 more spells a day (7 turn lycanthrops, divine spellpower), cast teleport and dim door at will (Domain Spontenaiety). Note: Divine Spellpower is the only divine feat that lets you power the feat with any kind of turn, not just turn undead.

Now, clerics are boring, but not when I can do 8d6 damage a round from eldritch blast, or pull out the Eldritch Glaive Invocation from Dragon Magic and do 24d6 in one round (three attacks, hasted from boots of speed to get a third attack).

I can dim door all over the place with Flee the Scene, ignore SR with Vitriolic Blast, turn invisible and heal people, have a range of 250ft with Eldritch Spear, Neutralize powerful opponent's defenses with Relentless Dispelling, heal people for 8d6 with my blast from Eldritch Disciple.

I don't spend one round in combat not doing something useful. If I'm not healing, I'm blasting. If I'm not blasting, I'm buffing (spell resistance, protection from energy). My only weaknesses are non-spell-related grapplers. Nets, wrestlers, that sort of thing. However, any spell-effect that is countered by Freedom of Movement has no effect, thanks to the Travel Domain ability.

I was the only effective member of the party when we got attacked by three golems, because the golems just tripped and grappled people and had crazy DR. I just cast fly (domain spontenaity), and started raining acid (Vitriolic Blast) on them. Our melee fighters were getting owned (they constantly tripped and grappled our fighters), and our spellcasters couldn't do any damage (spell immunity).

Taking too much damage? Just use wild frenzy (Eldritch Disciple Power) each round and get 20 temporary hit points, as a swift action. That'll keep you alive longer than you deserve.

[Somebloke]

Seriously? I could use your input on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62130) in Homebrew, where I'm trying to "fix" invokers in general, and I actually have preliminary skeletons of Celestial and Fey invokers there. (With Warlocks being reclassified as Infernal invokers).
I've got a specialist invoker class I've been meaning to put up...it sounds like there are a lot of invocations out there to be used.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

The warlock can get boring, because you're just doing the same thing over and over. That said, so can pretty much every other class that's not a full-progression spellcaster.

In my current campaign, they needed a healer, so I went the Cleric3/Warlock1/Eldritch Disciple10 route (now with two levels of contemplative). I took Travel and Protection domains.

This was nice because I can heal as needed, Eldritch Disciple levels also provide healing blast, circle of protection on demand, and full progression in both classes. Healing blast saves me from having to use Cure spells a lot. Then I took two Extra Turning feats, along with 3 divine feats and battle caster. Contemplative 1 gave me the Moon domain (he worships Selune) which give 7 turn Lycanthropes for use with the Divine Spellpower feat. I also have Divine Retrieve Spell, and Domain Spontenaity.

So now, I have a level 16 character, that can cast cleric spells as a level 20 caster (divine spellpower), retrieve 2 level 6 spells a day (15 turns a day) and still boost 7 more spells a day (7 turn lycanthrops, divine spellpower), cast teleport and dim door at will (Domain Spontenaiety). Note: Divine Spellpower is the only divine feat that lets you power the feat with any kind of turn, not just turn undead.

Now, clerics are boring, but not when I can do 8d6 damage a round from eldritch blast, or pull out the Eldritch Glaive Invocation from Dragon Magic and do 24d6 in one round (three attacks, hasted from boots of speed to get a third attack).

I can dim door all over the place with Flee the Scene, ignore SR with Vitriolic Blast, turn invisible and heal people, have a range of 250ft with Eldritch Spear, Neutralize powerful opponent's defenses with Relentless Dispelling, heal people for 8d6 with my blast from Eldritch Disciple.

I don't spend one round in combat not doing something useful. If I'm not healing, I'm blasting. If I'm not blasting, I'm buffing (spell resistance, protection from energy). My only weaknesses are non-spell-related grapplers. Nets, wrestlers, that sort of thing. However, any spell-effect that is countered by Freedom of Movement has no effect, thanks to the Travel Domain ability.

I was the only effective member of the party when we got attacked by three golems, because the golems just tripped and grappled people and had crazy DR. I just cast fly (domain spontenaity), and started raining acid (Vitriolic Blast) on them. Our melee fighters were getting owned (they constantly tripped and grappled our fighters), and our spellcasters couldn't do any damage (spell immunity).

Taking too much damage? Just use wild frenzy (Eldritch Disciple Power) each round and get 20 temporary hit points, as a swift action. That'll keep you alive longer than you deserve.

wow...I gotta try that build...it looks sweet...what book is the Eldritch disciple in? The other feats/classes/invoc are in complete arcane and dragon magic right?

[JaxGaret]

wow...I gotta try that build...it looks sweet...what book is the Eldritch disciple in? The other feats/classes/invoc are in complete arcane and dragon magic right?

Eldritch Disciple is in Complete Mage. It is an awesome hybrid class.

[dyslexicfaser]

Hellfire Warlock is one of those PrC's that I literally can't imagine a warlock not taking as soon as he can.

It's that good.

[Craig1f]

wow...I gotta try that build...it looks sweet...what book is the Eldritch disciple in? The other feats/classes/invoc are in complete arcane and dragon magic right?

Ok, let's see what I can remember

Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge (which is dual progression arcane/invocation, so you'd make a wizard warlock. Haven't tried this yet) is in Complete Mage.

Selune is a Goddess in the Forgotten Realms setting. Travel is a great domain, protection is ok. Protective ward is great to cast on someone who's trying to disarm a crucial trap. Time is also a great domain.

Divine feats are in complete divine, and I think complete champion. I took -Divine Spellpower (roll a turning check, and boost your caster level by the result of the check. My character can boost his spell level by 4 with a roll of 12)
-Retrieve Spell lets your retrieve a spell you've cast at the cost of 1 turn + the spell level
-Domain Spontenaity lets you spontaneously cast a spell from the chosen domain at the cost of a turn. Great for things like teleport, fly, dim door, locate object, longstrider (which makes up for the mithral plate you should be wearing).
-Combat Caster lets you wear mithral fullplate.

Eldritch Glaive is from Dragon Magic. Let's you do full-round attacks with an energy glaive, which is basically your eldritch blast. Tons of damage.

Relentless dispelling is, I believe, from complete mage. Hit a target with targeted dispell magic, and it is automatically hit with another dispel magic in the following round. It's great for debuffing monsters, and helping disarm traps.

Contemplative is also in Complete Divine. Level 1 gives you a third domain. Level 2 gives you immunity to all diseases, magical or not.

The Travel Domain gives you automatic freedom of movement against any SPELL that hits you and restricts movement. It does not affect grappling.

The Protection Domain gives you a protective ward that you can place on someone to boost their next Save by your caster level. It's nice too. The best part of the Protection Domain though, is you get Antimagic field as a 6th level domain spell rather than 8th. Since clerics are better in physical combat than wizards, this is very useful.

You'll want Chausable of Fell Power from magic item compendium as well.

The other nice thing about this build, is you don't end up wasting any spell slots on attack spells. There aren't many cleric attack spells that are really worth taking, since you can just blast every round. The only attack spell I took beforeI got level 7 spells is Commetfall, before I got vitriolic blast, because it ignores SR. At level 7, holy word and righteous smite are just too awesome to pass up though. Plus, with Domain Spontenaity, you can set most of your domain spells to the protection domain, and just use Domain Spontenaity when you REALLY need a teleport or dim door or fly or something. This also lessens your need for Fell Flight, since you can cast Fly so easily. Flee the Scene is a great invocation though, that I highly recommend. I highly recommend liberal use of Readied Action with Flee the Scene to make monsters waste actions.

Lower Spell Resistance from either Dragon Magic or Draconimicon is also very good for debuffing boss monsters.

It's a ridiculously good build. Probably on par with Scout/Ranger/Dervish w/ Swift Hunter feat, and favored enemies construct and undead .

[Burley]

Thanks again, to everybody. Thanks so much. I look forward to dropping down another thread soon for opinions, tricks, and mild teases. Keep an eye out for my horrible Thread Titles.
Everybody: Feel free to drop me a private message if you'd like to exchange ideas on Warlocks, Wizards, Flying Monkeys, or really anything else you'd like to rant and rave about. I don't care what it is, as long as it makes me think...or chuckle...or...have to pee.