hardness of dragon bone and hardness of dragon teeth

[techpriest35]

so a player in the middle of a barbarian rage wanted to pick up the BBEG and slam his head into the skeleton of a colossal dragon tooth until the tooth shattered into pieces.
i can't find the hardness of dragon bone or dragon teeth or the hp/inch of thickness
i tried looking in races of the dragon and draconomicon
i'm about to check dragon magic power incarnate, dragon magic
then the dragon magazine compendium dragonlance campaign setting dragonmarked magic item compendium or the slayer's guide to dragons i think it will be in one of those
i know dragonhide has hardness 10 and 10 hp per inch of thickness but i thought a bone might be harder than the scaly skin and i thought a tooth might be even harder. if any one knows the answer or which book its in that would be nice

[hamishspence]

I don't know about dragonbone, but regular bone has different stats in different sources.

In the 3.0 source Arms and Equipment Guide (page 12) it's Hardness 6, 10 Hit Points per inch of thickness.
In Stronghold Builder's Guide (p34) it's Hardness 6, 5 Hit Points per inch of thickness

In the 3.5 source Dungeonscape (p146-148) it's Hardness 5, and based on the examples, 5 Hit Points per inch of thickness.

I'd rule that the 10 HP figure refers to a small bone object (say, a bone club), and the 5 HP figure refers to composites of many bones stuck together into a wall - so intrinsically weaker than a small solid object would be.


EDIT: If other edition's info is worth taking note of - 4E Draconomicon Chromatic Dragons: page 12.

"Dragon bone is strong. In fact it is stronger than any known nonmagical material other than adamantine, in terms of the amount of pressure it can withstand. As with scales, when bone is removed from a dragon's body, it becomes relatively brittle. If a person were to consider dragon bone as a building material, good-quality stone or heavy wood would ultimately make better choices because of their comparable durability and wider availability"


So, the bone of a live dragon is near-adamantine tough, but the bone of a dead dragon is more like stone or heavy wood.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yeah, dragon magic strikes again. The draconis fundamentum is one powerful organ.

[Biggus]

Looking at real-world sources in the absence of D&D ones, tooth enamel is slightly harder than iron, which would give it a hardness of about 11-12.

[hamishspence]

4E Draconomicon Chromatic Dragons: page 8:

"A dragon's teeth and fangs consist of a hard substance more closely related to the substance of a dragon's bones (see "Skeletal system") than to the enamel and dentin that comprise the teeth of most creatures. Similarly, the interior of the tooth resembles marrow more than it does pulp."

[Biggus]

4E Draconomicon Chromatic Dragons: page 8:

"A dragon's teeth and fangs consist of a hard substance more closely related to the substance of a dragon's bones (see "Skeletal system") than to the enamel and dentin that comprise the teeth of most creatures. Similarly, the interior of the tooth resembles marrow more than it does pulp."

Does it say whether the "loses hardness when removed from the dragon" thing applies to teeth as it does to skin and bones?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Does it say whether the "loses hardness when removed from the dragon" thing applies to teeth as it does to skin and bones?

The reason bones are that hard is because some of the dragon magic is stored within ("Dragon bones are hollow like those of birds, making them remarkably light for their size and strength. The marrow within is yet another repository of the elemental energy that flows through the bloodstream."). After the dragon's death, the fundamentum (the organ that produces and transmits the magic through the body) stops working, so the bone just becomes like a regular bird bone, that is very light and kind of brittle. Teeth are very similar in their composition to the bones, complete with marrow. There's no reason the teeth would keep some magic when the other bones do not. It's not stated specifically, but strongly implied that teeth also lose their hardness after death.

[Biggus]

The reason bones are that hard is because some of the dragon magic is stored within ("Dragon bones are hollow like those of birds, making them remarkably light for their size and strength. The marrow within is yet another repository of the elemental energy that flows through the bloodstream."). After the dragon's death, the fundamentum (the organ that produces and transmits the magic through the body) stops working, so the bone just becomes like a regular bird bone, that is very light and kind of brittle. Teeth are very similar in their composition to the bones, complete with marrow. There's no reason the teeth would keep some magic when the other bones do not. It's not stated specifically, but strongly implied that teeth also lose their hardness after death.

OK thanks, that's what I guessed but I don't have the book myself so I didn't know the context it was written in.

So given the above and the fact that tooth enamel is normally the hardest substance in the body, this suggests that after death, a dragon's teeth are actually more fragile than those of other creatures?

[hamishspence]

Pretty much - more like really tough wood or stone, rather than iron or steel.

[techpriest35]

I don't know about dragonbone, but regular bone has different stats in different sources.

In the 3.0 source Arms and Equipment Guide (page 12) it's Hardness 6, 10 Hit Points per inch of thickness.
In Stronghold Builder's Guide (p34) it's Hardness 6, 5 Hit Points per inch of thickness

In the 3.5 source Dungeonscape (p146-148) it's Hardness 5, and based on the examples, 5 Hit Points per inch of thickness.

I'd rule that the 10 HP figure refers to a small bone object (say, a bone club), and the 5 HP figure refers to composites of many bones stuck together into a wall - so intrinsically weaker than a small solid object would be.


EDIT: If other edition's info is worth taking note of - 4E Draconomicon Chromatic Dragons: page 12.

"Dragon bone is strong. In fact it is stronger than any known nonmagical material other than adamantine, in terms of the amount of pressure it can withstand. As with scales, when bone is removed from a dragon's body, it becomes relatively brittle. If a person were to consider dragon bone as a building material, good-quality stone or heavy wood would ultimately make better choices because of their comparable durability and wider availability"


So, the bone of a live dragon is near-adamantine tough, but the bone of a dead dragon is more like stone or heavy wood.

thanks this is exactly what i needed. i think i will go with the arms and equipment guide hardness 6
10 hp/inch thick. maybe increase to hardness 8 with 15 hp/inch thick to represent the dragon bone being better than regular bone