Proposed alternate CR curve for Druid Wildshapes (Moon and otherwise)?

[Snowbluff]

Hello!

So I was thinking about the spell capacity thread and the "subclasses not for you one," and the two of them got me thinking. I feel like my druid players and druids I played with find wildshape to be a bit of a mixed bag. I would like to see it become more of the druid identity, and I was wondering you have thought about using a faster CR curve for base druid, and maybe rolling in some of the Moon Druid, like magic natural weapons, bonus action changing, and maybe healing the form with slots. I've also been thinking about adding forms like Plants to the options.

Now, I don't want the druid to become necessarily more powerful (if anything I would like Moon druid to be relatively weaker at tier one but work better higher up), per se, just make it feel like the wildshape can sub in for fights when you are out of slots or would rather not spend them. Kinda like the druid's answer to cantrip spam.

Whatcha think? Any of you looked at this recently, or have any ideas as to what would be fair?

[JNAProductions]

Given that the Druid is a full caster, I think you'd be better off designing another class-a half caster or something-with a stronger emphasis on shapeshifting.

I've taken a crack at that once or twice, if you want to take a gander.

[Psyren]

Personally, the only real way to balance it is to make it similar to the revised Beastmaster pet - make its wild shape be a scaling/customizable statblock that can look like/borrow a few core abilities from a variety of animals. So long as Moon Druid is able to book dive through the monster manual it will be nearly impossible to find that sweet spot, and even if they do, every new animal they print will risk upending it. (Hi, Deinonychus!)


Given that the Druid is a full caster, I think you'd be better off designing another class-a half caster or something-with a stronger emphasis on shapeshifting.

I've taken a crack at that once or twice, if you want to take a gander.

I'm fine with Moon Druid being a full caster that can melee. It's not like Bladesinger Wizard, Valor Bard, Swords Bard, War Cleric, Forge Cleric, and Bladelock are going anywhere, even if they do get toned down a bit they're all iconic - and Moon Druid is the most iconic of all.

[JNAProductions]

Personally, the only real way to balance it is to make it similar to the revised Beastmaster pet - make its wild shape be a scaling/customizable statblock that can look like/borrow a few core abilities from a variety of animals. So long as Moon Druid is able to book dive through the monster manual it will be nearly impossible to find that sweet spot, and even if they do, every new animal they print will risk upending it. (Hi, Deinonychus!)

I'm fine with Moon Druid being a full caster that can melee. It's not like Bladesinger Wizard, Valor Bard, Swords Bard, War Cleric, Forge Cleric, and Bladelock are going anywhere, even if they do get toned down a bit they're all iconic - and Moon Druid is the most iconic of all.

Wildshape isn't just melee capability, though.

That being said, your first part of the post is also a good idea. I could see that working pretty well.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That being said, your first part of the post is also a good idea. I could see that working pretty well.

Agree. Personally, the "right" change is

1. Split the druid class in half. One half (currently code-named "shaman" in my head) keeps the spellcasting and gains something like movable auras (aka "totems"). The other half loses spellcasting but gets a better wildshape that it uses for most of its power (maybe keeping 1/3 casting via subclass).
2. Wildshape uses pre-defined stat blocks.
3. So does polymorph (but possibly different ones/less flexible ones).

#1 is optimal, but lots of work.
#2 & #3 are the only way to make any of that work well and not have odd scaling in many places, and can be done without #1.

[Psyren]

Wildshape isn't just melee capability, though.

Sure, it has other benefits - but it has drawbacks too. It's not like a Swords Bard gives up their ability to cast spells or speak while they're in melee for example. In fact, none of the other gishes do.


That being said, your first part of the post is also a good idea. I could see that working pretty well.

I'm bracing myself for the complaints if they actually go this route tbh.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm bracing myself for the complaints if they actually go this route tbh.

Any change breaks someone's workflow. And not having the ability to find the broken things offends a lot of people. Personally, the whole monster-book diving thing has always been a major source of jank and broken (on all sides). For summoning/minionmancy (fixed by the Tasha's Summon X line), polymorph, AND wildshape.

[JNAProductions]

I'm bracing myself for the complaints if they actually go this route tbh.

For me, it depends on how well it's done.

If done well, I think it could be better than current Wildshape, especially for Moon. Since right now, if you want to be wolf-themed... Too bad, wolves only go so high in CR.

[Oramac]

Personally, I think the simplest fix for Wild Shape is to simply allow more uses. Two per short rest is ridiculous, especially considering many groups just don't take short rests all that much (unless there's a warlock in the group). Four per rest would be fine, or perhaps letting it scale. Something like 2/4/6/8 uses in Tier 1/2/3/4.


1. Split the druid class in half. One half (currently code-named "shaman" in my head) keeps the spellcasting and gains something like movable auras (aka "totems").

Ask and ye shall receive! (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LopeURP89cNuAqk3LvN) (Admittedly, this is pretty rough and heavily based on the Shaman from World of Warcraft)

[Snowbluff]

Personally, the only real way to balance it is to make it similar to the revised Beastmaster pet - make its wild shape be a scaling/customizable statblock that can look like/borrow a few core abilities from a variety of animals. So long as Moon Druid is able to book dive through the monster manual it will be nearly impossible to find that sweet spot, and even if they do, every new animal they print will risk upending it. (Hi, Deinonychus!)



Any change breaks someone's workflow. And not having the ability to find the broken things offends a lot of people. Personally, the whole monster-book diving thing has always been a major source of jank and broken (on all sides). For summoning/minionmancy (fixed by the Tasha's Summon X line), polymorph, AND wildshape.

I see merit to both approaches. Maybe an option for a generic form but allowing for book diving could work, like with the conjure/summon spells. I think only having a generic form would would lead to less variety. As long as using new animals as the game is expanded, the druid gets new life added to each time. I remember one of my friends having a lot of fun with various dinosaur forms when they came out.

[Psyren]

Personally, I think the simplest fix for Wild Shape is to simply allow more uses. Two per short rest is ridiculous, especially considering many groups just don't take short rests all that much (unless there's a warlock in the group). Four per rest would be fine, or perhaps letting it scale. Something like 2/4/6/8 uses in Tier 1/2/3/4.

My personal favorite model would be x(PB/LR), regain one on a short rest, where x is 2 or 3.

At least we know short rests will still be a thing thanks to Bard's Font of Inspiration feature.


For me, it depends on how well it's done.

If done well, I think it could be better than current Wildshape, especially for Moon. Since right now, if you want to be wolf-themed... Too bad, wolves only go so high in CR.

Exactly. A high level druid should be able to become, like, Moro (Princess Mononoke), or Toga (Inuyasha) - practically a demigod version of {animal.} Forcing every druid to become a Wooly Mammoth for any hope of scaling is just boring.


I see merit to both approaches. Maybe an option for a generic form but allowing for book diving could work, like with the conjure/summon spells. I think only having a generic form would would lead to less variety. As long as using new animals as the game is expanded, the druid gets new life added to each time. I remember one of my friends having a lot of fun with various dinosaur forms when they came out.

You're a lot more optimistic than I am that Conjure X will stick around in 1DnD in anything close to its current form.

[arisroot]

I do think there is a need to convert the stats to something similar to the "summon" spells. It will makenitore reasonable at lower levels while scaling at higher levels.

Perhaps giving the druid options for features like the spell. Choose between charge, knock over, restrain, flyby, pack tactics, etc. The Summon Beast spell is a pretty good template.

Flavoring the exact animal is free of course.

[Snowbluff]

My personal favorite model would be x(PB/LR), regain one on a short rest, where x is 2 or 3.

At least we know short rests will still be a thing thanks to Bard's Font of Inspiration feature. Indeed, changing the recharge amount could help a lot. 3.5 druids just had a lot of wildshape, IIRC. They also had fewer reasons to leave a form thanks to the options available. I don't want to add natural spell to the game, so more uses is good.





You're a lot more optimistic than I am that Conjure X will stick around in 1DnD in anything close to its current form.

I don't wanna get deep into it, but more like I won't be playing ODD if they keep pulling changes that limit immersive gameplay like they did with rogue. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Another approach - Wildshape could be an activated state, and while that state is active you can use your action to freely switch back and forth. That allows for druids that can scout and report back to their party, but in combat it would make going back and forth very costly. Moon Druid's Combat Wildshape (i.e. bonus action) would only work the first time you shift during a given combat.

[Sigreid]

I'd not mind at all having a variant that was not a caster at all but had much better wildshape.

[animorte]

I like the idea of mixed bag Druid specifically because the animal shapes have never had a great deal of appeal to me. I like being able to do that for the purposes of utility, but not so much for combat.

In playing WoW many years ago, my favorite character was a Druid. They have several very useful forms for different specialized purposes. I rarely used any of them except for utility: stealth, flight, etc. Yet I was extremely consistent in PvP and PvE, while others would observe and ask why. “Well, you see if I had taken that form I would have done extra damage (or been better at whatever) but very limited from my other abilities that allowed me the versatility to defeat you. Otherwise my weakness would have been evident and I would have failed.”

As you could imagine, I’ve never cared for the very popular Moon Druid. I still thinks it’s a neat option for those that do like it.

I really appreciate being able to have a strong nature theme of something entirely different while maintaining my overall flexibility at all times, so thanks for that design decision.

Also, I have seen a few different examples of Wild Shape Rangers. That’s a really cool concept as well.

[nickl_2000]

Given that the Druid is a full caster, I think you'd be better off designing another class-a half caster or something-with a stronger emphasis on shapeshifting.

I've taken a crack at that once or twice, if you want to take a gander.

Not an easy but to crack, I tried it once. Looking back it was an unqualified disaster.

[Mastikator]

I think the spell Summon Beast from Tasha's is a good starting point

[Witty Username]

Given that the Druid is a full caster, I think you'd be better off designing another class-a half caster or something-with a stronger emphasis on shapeshifting.

I've taken a crack at that once or twice, if you want to take a gander.

Oh. Maybe a Ranger subclass, possibly in the style of Beorn from The Hobbit, woodland hunter hermit type that change form into a big beast type thing.

[Snowbluff]

Another approach - Wildshape could be an activated state, and while that state is active you can use your action to freely switch back and forth. That allows for druids that can scout and report back to their party, but in combat it would make going back and forth very costly. Moon Druid's Combat Wildshape (i.e. bonus action) would only work the first time you shift during a given combat.

To be fair, that is how it works in 4e. Well, it's not costly, but it is at will and you have a different moves accessible in either form.

Maybe a system for adding special moves you can use while in the wildshape form could work. I'm not sure if it would be a pseudo-smite systems, using your spell slots, or if there was a special pool of wildhshape sap. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

To be fair, that is how it works in 4e. Well, it's not costly, but it is at will and you have a different moves accessible in either form.

Maybe a system for adding special moves you can use while in the wildshape form could work. I'm not sure if it would be a pseudo-smite systems, using your spell slots, or if there was a special pool of wildhshape sap. :smalltongue:

I think the issue is less "I don't have enough to do while wildshaped" and more "wildshape's restrictions encourage dropping out of it to engage with the party, but the harsh use-limits punish you for playing that way."

3.5 and PF1 solved this by letting you remove most of the restrictions, but doing that means there's no real tradeoff left for using wildshape; you just became a furry cleric with an arguably even better spell list. 5e's approach meanwhile made the restrictions matter again, but made the punishment nearly impossible to avoid unless you got to short rest before and after every fight. I think going the 5e route but with either more wildshape uses per rest, or 2/SR but the ability to swap multiple time per "use", would be the way to go.

[Jervis]

I suspect that wildshape is going to become a single statblock or collection of statblocks you can modify and reflavor. Using CR is just a mess because, with moon Druid especially, it starts off good and just stops scaling eventually. Moon Druid peaks when you take the subclass and starts going downhill at 6.

[Mastikator]

I suspect that wildshape is going to become a single statblock or collection of statblocks you can modify and reflavor. Using CR is just a mess because, with moon Druid especially, it starts off good and just stops scaling eventually. Moon Druid peaks when you take the subclass and starts going downhill at 6.

Is wild shaping into a earth elemental really that bad at level 10? I'm genuinely curious. Never seen a high level moon druid at the table.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is wild shaping into a earth elemental really that bad at level 10? I'm genuinely curious. Never seen a high level moon druid at the table.

Hmm, I've DMed 2 Moon Druids well past this level, and I'd say the elemental forms are a bit of a mixed bag/ situational. We (I) do try to have 6-8 encounters per LR, so 2-3 per SR. If the elemental form can be used for multiple encounters or (at least) be really effective and absorb a lot of the damage from the 1st then it's probably a buff. If, on the other hand, the player goes earth elemental (often viewed as the strongest) in encounter 1, then encounter 2 is a bunch of flying critters or whatever else the elemental can't do much with then the player has a choice. They can either twiddle their thumbs or lose the wildshape and go back to casting. If there's a 3rd encounter, then if they twiddled thumbs in encounter 2 they might be in a better spot to use the elemental shape... or not if it's back to flying critters. If they lost the wildshape they're back to casting again... on a subclass that's not optimal for this kind of play.

One of our Moons did build around movement and grappling and did get a lot of mileage around both the fire an air forms, so for him it was more worthwhile more regularly.

2 'generic' wildshapes per short rest are more consistent and flexible. You cast a concentration spell (pre-cast if possible), and wildshape. If you managed to pre-cast then you also get to attack on round 1. You then have the option to cast an appropriate concentration spell and 2nd, perhaps different, wildshape in the 2nd or 3rd encounter.

I know there are others that see elemental forms as a big bump. Maybe they have fewer encounters or less varied encounters; in that case I could see elemental forms as significantly better.

[sambojin]

The wildshape curve isn't too bad, it's the lack of casting that kills it. Something like "You can cast spells of 1/4 your druid level (rounded down) while in wildshape" fixes a lot. No cantrips allowed, spell slots only.

So lvl1 spells at druid4. Lvl2 spells at druid8. Lvl3 spells at druid12. Lvl4 spells at druid16. So they come in late, and a fair bit later than you'd be effectively using those slots, but it still is really useful considering the druid spell list.

It just makes them a more cohesive part of the team, able to do stuff for the party, while stuck in wildshape. And if they blow through all their lvl1-2's with Absorb Elements, that's actually a good thing (reaction casts are somewhat weak compared to 1/10/60min spells). Slot usage = good, because a daily resource that could have been used for nearly anything else, got used. To save HP, of which the class has an extra abundance of anyway.
(I'd be more scared of the sheer amount of Healing Words a Giant Eagle/ Warhorse could do to lock-out party defeat, than any amount of self/party buffs available to them).

So it's still pretty weak, but it offers a lot more options and interplay, and gives a bit of a back-up option if you immediately lose your concentration just after wildshaping in some situations. It's also a pretty massive 4lvl dip for this versatility of casting in wildshape, so it's really a part of the build, to the point of an ASI, not just a 2lvl dip for extra gubbins.
...........

Another change you could make is *Super-forms*. "For every CR category up from its base form, your wildshape form gets +10HP, +1 to-hit, +1AC, and a 1d4+(Str or Dex) Extra Attack that can be used as a part of its multiattack or as a part of its normal attacks (like extra attack). The damage can be b/p/s of your choice from one of the beast's regular attacks. The DC of any abilities and proficiencies also goes up by one."

So a CR1/2 wolf gets 21HP, +5 to-hit, 14AC, an extra +d4+1 attack, and its trip is DC12. It also has +4Perception and +5Stealth.

A CR1 wolf gets 31HP, +6 to-hit, 15AC, 2 extra +d4+1 attacks, and it's trip is DC13. It also has +5Perception and +6Stealth

A CR2 wolf (moon6) gets 41HP, +7 to-hit, 16AC, 3 extra +d4+1 attacks, and it's trip is DC14. It also has +6Perception and +7Stealth

A CR3 wolf (moon9) gets 51HP, +8 to-hit, 17AC, 4 extra +d4+1 attacks, and it's trip is DC15. It also has +7Perception and +8Stealth

A CR4 wolf (moon12) gets 61HP, +9 to-hit, 17AC, 5 extra +d4+1 attacks, and it's trip is DC16. It also has +8Perception and +9Stealth

It's a bit janky, but it's pretty close to being inline with creatures of higher CRs (possibly a little weaker, but with great versatility comes great mini-nerfs). It being a tad weaker than the HP/AC power of normal wildshaping (or CRs of creatures at that level) is also there to counter multiclassing. Monk or Barb +AC primarily. The +d4 attacks are meant to be weak but plentiful, to make sure really high strength or dex forms don't get out of control damage-wise. Pack tactics makes some of those higher +to-hit attacks *really good*, and you're rolling buckets of dice for them. I'm not saying there won't be outliers that are a bit too good (Super warhorsies or death apes or ultra jaculis! Pretend flying snakes don't exist), but it's in the ballpark of "balanced" if you really want to be a wolf lord or a mega bear or a spider king. Pizza cat to your heart's content 😁
........

(("Normal" wildshape creatures tend to have far better HP, but "Super Forms" tend to have slightly better AC, so it evens out to balanced, and helps with the concentration/ spell casting aspect a bit better as well. It's only +10HP to make maths easy, but +1AC is pretty valuable))

(((If you think it's a bit too good, just make it take two wildshape charges. Or a wildshape charge and a spell slot. Or a wildshape charge and a spell slot equal to the level of super-upped the form is from its original. There's plenty of easy balancing you can do, if your player finds an "ultimate CR combo". It's a house rule anyway, so alter it at will. More better probably should be more resources used, even if wildshape auto-scales normally.)))

((((Maybe let your player choose one or the other? Low level spell casting while in wildshape, or Super-forms. Both together just makes a broken thing even more broken.

I'd personally just go the 1/4th druid level **casting in wildshape** and call it a day as a DM. They can get creative, you can knock the concentration out of them, they can try again. Spell slots often are the equivalent of Extra Attack/combat gimmicks/ exploration/ skills/ socials for Druids, so I'd just do it that way. A non-scaling but possibly heavy resource usage, with low AC backing it, and defined levels of when they can "do a thing". Makes it easier DM-wise than trying to actually balance wildshape or scale it properly))))


***
(((((A lot of people don't "get" the auto role-transition of Moon (/any) Druids throughout their career/levels. By about lvl3-7, not only do you have pretty dependable combat forms with tonnes of free HP, you're also a really good full-caster as well. I know people still want to just wildshape in and crack heads, but you're a full-list full-caster, with more slots than you know what to do with. And healing your 2/sr wildshape form is one of the worst uses of those slots as a Moon. Seriously, a lot of your spells can last 1-3 encounters, as long as you don't get the concentration knocked out of you. Wildshape 2-5 encounters a day away, but cast a little, live a little, have fun. Your caster form is *good* at what it does. Your *good* wildshape forms come with movement or condition appliers that are normally lvl1-3 spell slot worthy, and you can keep that up for hours. You have godawful flexibility in what you can do in most situations compared to most classes, even at higher levels. None of the above suggestions are necessary, but they are fun.

There's +AC. There's Resilient(Con). There's Warcaster. There's movement and feats and racials. You can keep spells/summons up as a Moon, and they are the extra damage/whatever that people don't think Moons have)))))

***

Pps: Moon X/ Monk1 is glorious. Yes, you're 1lvl behind on spells and wildshape scaling, but you're probably +1-+5AC ahead with decent Wis, which makes spells easier to keep up. And you're a combat/utility monster at lvls2-7 anyway as this. Maybe just tell your player to MC 1lvl of monk, and save making a fully cohesive system of upgrading forms and spellcasting? It works fine, and is a super easy dip. An AC19-20 Air Elemental form at lvl11-13 (for 5+ hours each sr) is a decent payoff for the dip, but works great with all wildshape forms along the way. It also doesn't matter what items you get, or if your DM doesn't like the idea of armoured elementals. Moon3->Monk1, the rest Moon. Problem solved, right from the PHB, no houserules needed. You even have the option of Monk2, so you get 2/sr bonus action dash or dodge, and +10' wildshape speed, which is also surprisingly powerful at later levels.
*Can still ninja cat, 15+AC, with 2x d4+2 attacks, using martial arts 👍😁
(Potential flurries too, if you go Monk2 at Moon13+)

[Sigreid]

I could see a subclass feature where you spend a spell slot of x level to get y increase in CR when you wild shape.

[Psyren]

Is wild shaping into a earth elemental really that bad at level 10? I'm genuinely curious. Never seen a high level moon druid at the table.

You certainly get a spike with the elemental forms but you give up a lot of utility using those because they need both your wildshape uses. That means saving your WS for big fights - which you may not even recognize as big fights - and thus not being able to use it for scouting or othe purposes unless you can guarantee a short rest before combat.

[sambojin]

^the thing is, basic wildshape uses at lvl10 last 5hrs. Which is a lot by then. Not many "non-concentration" spells last 5hrs, as a subclass skill. So you can sprang out a familiar, cast a concentration spell and Wildshape once in the morning, and then elemental out the rest of the day, pretty well. With the occasional spell in between along the way.
At worst, it's a 90HP+, high Dex/init, 90' movement, no-concentration flying spell for the party, 1/sr. **That lasts 5hrs!!!**

So, in another form of it, at lower levels, every druid can use one wildshape charge for a familiar (for an hour+) and take a wildshape form of the appropriate CR, even at very low levels. No Moon needed, at tier 1-2.

Wildshape +to-hit may suck a little, but when it's often made at advantage with familiar helpies, pretty much every druid can wildshape away an encounter or two per short rest, even in combat'y environments. Which saves a tonne of spell slots. By lvl2, every druid can do combat, and it lasts until about lvl5-6 (where you're a really good caster anyway, so do that instead).
And by lvl4, you've got some forms that do restrain-on-hit, with somewhat reasonable DCs to break out of them, which can up party DPS quite a lot. Or just smash in as a 50-60' movement Warhorse/Elk, with 1-2 greatsword attacks. It's pretty spell-slot worthy, considering the amount of times per wildshape charge you can try it, and things like Bless and Bardic inspiration and divination wizs and stuff around in the average party.

Blowing two wildshape charges for an encounter (or two) is a perfectly reasonable use of resources. Moon or not. All Druids get that. They also get Summon Beast at lvl3, which is essentially an extra attack.

(Also, I *know* everyone says Earth Elemental is better. But Air Elemental is *actually* better in play unless you need Earth Glide and Tremorsense. 15AC "proper 10+dex AC", can use a shield, can wear magic light armour (because you can, and your proficiencies carry over, and magic armour resizes). So by lvl10, if you've snagged a +1 studded leather armour, and a +1 shield (which hopefully you have, as a pseudo-martial), you've got 21AC as an Air Elemental. 17AC at worst, because you're using a wooden shield. Which is amazing for making all those concentration saves that you tend to as a druid, with your 1hr long spells. And you have an awesome fly speed. A fly speed that is damn near impossible to remove, with the list of condition immunities elementals have.

You'd even have +9to-hit with a sling if you wanted that for a ranged attack. Earth Elemental is good, but Air Elemental is great. Still, there's not many other characters that get a 90+ HP, reasonable movement, b/p/s + conditions resistant form for 5+hrs, every short rest. It is the best lvl10 mini-capstone in the game. It's like a free concentration-free polymorph, with actually good abilities, 1/sr. It's really good, even if it just ends up as a utility thing damage-wise in later tiers. Sure, you can't cast when in wildshape. But in many respects, you just cast a lvl4-5 utility spell in doing it, and one that can't be broken until the HP gets cracked. At which point, "oh noes!", you're a full lvl10 caster with full HP and some spare spell slots. Tidal Wave/ Ice Knife/ whatever it up, or just flurry out a couple of bears or giant octopi. You'll be fine.

Remember, you are large-sized as an Air Elemental. You can grapple-move everything up to Huge, 45' up in the air. 55' with longstrider. 65' with 2 lvls of monk (and you can bonus action dash for 1ki). Take Athletics as Moon Druid. It will serve you well. This is sort of why a monk dip isn't too bad either. On-call splat damage is fun.)


((Yes, I know I made a perfectly reasonable system for wildshape casting and Super-forms above. It would work fine.
It's just, Druids really don't need the buff. They're one of the classes that really don't need more stuff. Although, I would like some low level casting in wildshape in 1DnD.))

(((Just remember, the average druid potentially could buy a small saddle by lvl3, cast Summon Beast, and ride around on it as a Velociraptor, for 3x pack tactics attacks. Weak ones, but all at advantage. Or make it a flying beast spirit and be air-cav if you want, even as scorpion or spider, if dinos don't exist in your world. By lvl4, just be a Warhorse and have a monkey spirit ride around on you, for big and proning and a +adv attack regardless. There is way too much broken stuff in druid to add way more broken stuff to it. There's a reason stupid-druid-tricks and the word shenanigans usually get added to most threads dealing with the class 😋)))

Pps: considering you can both be an Air Elemental (with skills and proficiencies and possibly armour) at lvl10 each short rest, *and* summon in a Dragon Spirit for 2hrs a day for you/ your party members (so they're not left behind) that adds to your resistances, kinda makes tier 3'ish buffs unnecessary for Moons. 🤭
Also remember, you didn't actually build for this. Maybe a +Wis ASI, maybe a feat (Alert or Sentinel or+concentration saves or whatever). But it's just built into the class, the subclass, and the spell list, regardless of your stats and race and feats. Even totes-not-combat Druids get CR1 flying forms + dragon summons by lvl10. Some subclasses can stack wildshape charges beautifully (Stars Archer beasts, Spore Tanks, etc), but everyone can do stuff. Druids have options, always.

[Pooky the Imp]

For me, it depends on how well it's done.

If done well, I think it could be better than current Wildshape, especially for Moon. Since right now, if you want to be wolf-themed... Too bad, wolves only go so high in CR.



Exactly. A high level druid should be able to become, like, Moro (Princess Mononoke), or Toga (Inuyasha) - practically a demigod version of {animal.} Forcing every druid to become a Wooly Mammoth for any hope of scaling is just boring.


I'd agree with this.

I think the question, though, will be whether the advancing stat block actually feels like an animal. This is certainly a major complaints I've seen levelled at the new Beast Master.

I agree, for example, that if you want to play a wolf theme then you shouldn't be stuck as a woolly mammoth at higher levels because there are no high-tier wolves. However, if all you do is make wolves mechanically indistinguishable from woolly mammoths, then I'd argue you haven't actually solved the problem.



Is wild shaping into a earth elemental really that bad at level 10? I'm genuinely curious. Never seen a high level moon druid at the table.

Having to use both your Wild Shape uses can be awkward - especially if you want to do any sort of spellcasting or interaction between fights.

For me, though, the more pressing issue is that elemental shapes come out of nowhere. Prior to that, the focus has been entirely on animal shapes. So, if your druid has had a Big Cat theme, it's a little strange for him to suddenly pull an earth elemental form out of his backside. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Having to use both your Wild Shape uses can be awkward - especially if you want to do any sort of spellcasting or interaction between fights.

For me, though, the more pressing issue is that elemental shapes come out of nowhere. Prior to that, the focus has been entirely on animal shapes. So, if your druid has had a Big Cat theme, it's a little strange for him to suddenly pull an earth elemental form out of his backside. :smallconfused:

I'm totally fine with druids that can become Elementals and even Plants. Pathfinder does this and it made their wildshape really interesting.

If I did that in 5e though it would probably be a separate subclass for the latter.

[sithlordnergal]

Is wild shaping into a earth elemental really that bad at level 10? I'm genuinely curious. Never seen a high level moon druid at the table.

Well, you need to learn how to time it, similar to any other class with a Short Rest resource. Since you can remain Wild Shaped for 5 hours, you can just take a Short Rest and get both of your Wild Shapes back.

That said, as someone who has a level 20 Moon Druid, the Earth Elemental is my least used form. Air is perfect for mobility, Fire is the best damage dealer, Water is perfect for underwater encounters.

[Pooky the Imp]

I'm totally fine with druids that can become Elementals and even Plants. Pathfinder does this and it made their wildshape really interesting.

I'm not opposed to druids being able to turn into elementals.

My issue is that it comes out of nowhere. You go from having a beast theme to suddenly turning into huge elementals.

IMO an elemental shapeshifter should warrant a separate subclass (or be done via spells), with weaker elemental forms early on.

I'd far rather see Moon Druids be able to turn into more magical beasts like Winter Wolves at higher levels.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Well, you need to learn how to time it, similar to any other class with a Short Rest resource. Since you can remain Wild Shaped for 5 hours, you can just take a Short Rest and get both of your Wild Shapes back.

That said, as someone who has a level 20 Moon Druid, the Earth Elemental is my least used form. Air is perfect for mobility, Fire is the best damage dealer, Water is perfect for underwater encounters.

I don't think the (potential lack of) length of time is the issue. Per the OP's concern, it's kind of part of the 'problem' for Moon Druids. Which is to say if you use the elemental forms you're 'stuck with' even more spell slots that are tricky to use. At least with the animal forms you've potentially got 6 times/ LR to cast a concentration + wildshape as you go into combat. As you've got a 2nd opportunity to to wildshape, you can more confidently drop the 1st form as more opportunities to cast out of combat come up.

So, at least as far as Moons go, I get the OP's concern, with respect to the fact that slots can be an unused resource on some adventuring day, particularly as slots accumulate with level. But, having DMed a couple to the end of tier 3, I can't say they're weak either; sure Moons aren't as tough as in early game, but I'd rate them as average to above average in tier 3. I can't really see buffing them in the manner suggested. I do think the spell list could use a couple of more functional non-concentration combat spells though.

[Psyren]

I'm not opposed to druids being able to turn into elementals.

My issue is that it comes out of nowhere. You go from having a beast theme to suddenly turning into huge elementals.

IMO an elemental shapeshifter should warrant a separate subclass (or be done via spells), with weaker elemental forms early on.

I'd far rather see Moon Druids be able to turn into more magical beasts like Winter Wolves at higher levels.

I don't think it's out of nowhere. Every druid should have a connection to elementals in my opinion - the elemental/inner planes are ultimately where Primal magic comes from. Moon happens to be able to turn into them because it's the only shapeshift-focused druid, but that doesn't mean another elemental druid can't come along too.